Priest who broke celibacy vow joins Episcopal Church

ChristusDominus

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Ebor said:
I assure you, ChristusDominus, that I know the historical facts that you posted and they are not germane.  I am questioning how you know that the Church of England would have still split with Rome if Henry VIII had been given his annulment as many other kings and nobles had been given in the past. 
I don't, but more than likey he would have, seeing how the following events transpired. I want to say it's an educated guess, but I can't; this dunce cap on my head won't permit it!
 

Ebor

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ChristusDominus said:
Ebor said:
I assure you, ChristusDominus, that I know the historical facts that you posted and they are not germane.  I am questioning how you know that the Church of England would have still split with Rome if Henry VIII had been given his annulment as many other kings and nobles had been given in the past. 
I don't, but more than likey he would have, seeing how the following events transpired. I want to say it's an educated guess, but I can't; this dunce cap on my head won't permit it!
I did not mean to imply that you were a dunce or anything like that.  I apologize for anything that I wrote that gave that impression. 

The thing is, one may speculate on how history would have been different, that's not the same as stating that something *would* have happened anyway.  If Henry had been given the annulment earlier, maybe Anne would have borne a boy that lived.  Then there could have been a whole different history without leaving Rome, without the Elizabethan age, with any number of differences that I can imagine.  It's a possibility. But that's not how things happened. 

Henry's concern was the succession, not sex or family life or companionship.  So introducing him into this thread looked more like taking a crack or cheap shot at my Church.  He and Fr. Cutie are two very different people in very different situations.

With respect,

Ebor
 

ChristusDominus

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Ebor said:
Henry's concern was the succession, not sex or family life or companionship.  him So introducing into this thread looked more like taking a crack or cheap shot at my Church.  He and Fr. Cutie are two very different people in very different situations.

With respect,

Ebor
I was being facetious, my friend. I also never meant to take cheap shots at your church. I like the Anglican High Mass, very solemn. It's something the Western Rite might like to mirror
(just my opinion).

I believe in mutual respect. It was never my intention to denigrate your faith nor your church. Someone just mentioned Henry the VIII in jest and I ran with it. Mea culpa
 

ChristusDominus

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Maybe, but she never did borne him a male heir. I know what you are saying: Had he not wasted time bickering with Rome for an annulment, the precious time lost might have been used to procreate with Anne.

How much time did he lose requesting the annulment?
 

Ebor

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ChristusDominus said:
I was being facetious, my friend. I also never meant to take cheap shots at your church. I like the Anglican High Mass, very solemn. It's something the Western Rite might like to mirror
(just my opinion).

I believe in mutual respect. It was never my intention to denigrate your faith nor your church. Someone just mentioned Henry the VIII in jest and I ran with it. Mea culpa
Thank you for your charity and courtesy.  It is sometimes hard to tell in posts when a person might be joking.  Sometimes, it's not, of course, when a post's language is much more ummm vehement.  :)
 

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ChristusDominus said:
Maybe, but she never did borne him a male heir. I know what you are saying: Had he not wasted time bickering with Rome for an annulment, the precious time lost might have been used to procreate with Anne.

How much time did he lose requesting the annulment?
The document requesting the annulment is in the Vatican archives and is dated July 13, 1530.  http://www.cathnewsusa.com/article.aspx?aeid=13708
Henry started to become concerned that he had no male heir as early as 1525.  As a side-note, he knew Anne Boleyn but she would not yield to his advances at that time. He finally married her in the latter part of 1532 with the official marriage in January 1533. So there is a span of years that possibly could have brought forth a son that lived.  Anne had two sons after Elizabeth, neither of whom lived long at all.
http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/aboutAnneBoleyn.htm

So, again, we cannot know what might have happened, but one might think of alternate paths if the annulment had been granted.

Ebor 

 

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Unfortunately, the Pope was unable to give it a full hearing with Emperor Charles breathing down his neck.

One of those things.

I must say that one of the saints coming out of the whole tragic business was Charles' aunt, Catherine of Aragon. She could not violate her conscience refused to go along, despite Henry's resulting extremely cruel treatment of her (and of her daughter Mary). She swore to Henry she would be obedient to him in everything, save her conscience and God. She suffered for her conscience and for the rights of her daughter.
 

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ialmisry said:
ChristusDominus said:
It's how it appears. He said so himself, I want to be a family man. He also didn't deny being in love. His fiancé is a divorced mother of two.
Ah, even better.  Never controversial enough.  Sort of like ordaining a lesbian with no theological qualifications to speak of as a "bishop."
I just posted what I read in the news, nothing more. What many of us consider controversial is highly ambiguous. I've heard more things about this lady via Spanish news but it wouldn't be right posting it like I did before; doesn't feel right. There's a fine line between conveying news and gossip. I know I have crossed it unknowingly, so i'll just shut my mouth, for goodness sake. :-X
 

ialmisry

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ChristusDominus said:
ialmisry said:
ChristusDominus said:
It's how it appears. He said so himself, I want to be a family man. He also didn't deny being in love. His fiancé is a divorced mother of two.
Ah, even better.  Never controversial enough.  Sort of like ordaining a lesbian with no theological qualifications to speak of as a "bishop."
I just posted what I read in the news, nothing more. What many of us consider controversial is highly ambiguous. I've heard more things about this lady via Spanish news but it wouldn't be right posting it like I did before; doesn't feel right. There's a fine line between conveying news and gossip. I know I have crossed it unknowingly, so i'll just shut my mouth, for goodness sake. :-X
Yes, the Spanish news seems very interested in this story.  But in any case, the more that is learned, the worse it becomes.
 

ChristusDominus

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ialmisry said:
ChristusDominus said:
ialmisry said:
ChristusDominus said:
It's how it appears. He said so himself, I want to be a family man. He also didn't deny being in love. His fiancé is a divorced mother of two.
Ah, even better.  Never controversial enough.  Sort of like ordaining a lesbian with no theological qualifications to speak of as a "bishop."
I just posted what I read in the news, nothing more. What many of us consider controversial is highly ambiguous. I've heard more things about this lady via Spanish news but it wouldn't be right posting it like I did before; doesn't feel right. There's a fine line between conveying news and gossip. I know I have crossed it unknowingly, so i'll just shut my mouth, for goodness sake. :-X
Yes, the Spanish news seems very interested in this story.  But in any case, the more that is learned, the worse it becomes.
And you know the Spanish media is very gossipy. Best to leave it at that :-\
 

stanley123

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Ebor said:
The document requesting the annulment is in the Vatican archives and is dated July 13, 1530.  http://www.cathnewsusa.com/article.aspx?aeid=13708
Henry started to become concerned that he had no male heir as early as 1525.  As a side-note, he knew Anne Boleyn but she would not yield to his advances at that time. He finally married her in the latter part of 1532 with the official marriage in January 1533. So there is a span of years that possibly could have brought forth a son that lived.  Anne had two sons after Elizabeth, neither of whom lived long at all.
http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/aboutAnneBoleyn.htm

So, again, we cannot know what might have happened, but one might think of alternate paths if the annulment had been granted.

Ebor 
I have noticed that the Roman Catholic Church marriage tribunals in the USA have been pretty liberal in granting marriage annulments since Vatican II. For example, in 1930, there were 9 marriage annulments per year in the USA, whereas in recent years it has gone as high as 60,000 marriage annulments in the USA per year. Before Vatican II, there had to be serious and compelling reasons, such as the individual was already secretly married, before this annulment would be granted. But after Vatican II, there began the acceptance of flimsy psychological reasons which were never admitted before. So I suspect that had this policy of granting easy marriage annulments been in effect in 1530, it is entirely conceivable that Henry VIII would have been granted his annulment.
 

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It is still historically the case that annulments were granted to royalty and nobility and for such a reason as that there were no male heirs.  This was the case with Eleanor of Acquitaine and Louis of France, for example.  So it was not a matter of needing "easy annulment" practices.
 

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When it comes to royal annulments, I also think of poor Ingeborg of Denmark, the wife of Philip II Augustus of France...

England might as well have remained Catholic had Uncle Charles not held Pope Clement VII a prisoner...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingeborg_of_Denmark,_Queen_of_France
 

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Indeed, that is a sad case. Considering that Philip II Augustus was the son of Louis VII by his third wife (his second wife after Eleanor died in childbirth after having more daughters) it might seem like there was a pattern of behaviour.  It's interesting to read that Philip II Augustus married Ingeborg partly because of trying to make a claim on the throne of England though the Danes and that was in the 1190s! 
 

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stanley123 said:
Ebor said:
The document requesting the annulment is in the Vatican archives and is dated July 13, 1530.  http://www.cathnewsusa.com/article.aspx?aeid=13708
Henry started to become concerned that he had no male heir as early as 1525.  As a side-note, he knew Anne Boleyn but she would not yield to his advances at that time. He finally married her in the latter part of 1532 with the official marriage in January 1533. So there is a span of years that possibly could have brought forth a son that lived.  Anne had two sons after Elizabeth, neither of whom lived long at all.
http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/aboutAnneBoleyn.htm

So, again, we cannot know what might have happened, but one might think of alternate paths if the annulment had been granted.

Ebor 
I have noticed that the Roman Catholic Church marriage tribunals in the USA have been pretty liberal in granting marriage annulments since Vatican II. For example, in 1930, there were 9 marriage annulments per year in the USA, whereas in recent years it has gone as high as 60,000 marriage annulments in the USA per year. Before Vatican II, there had to be serious and compelling reasons, such as the individual was already secretly married, before this annulment would be granted. But after Vatican II, there began the acceptance of flimsy psychological reasons which were never admitted before. So I suspect that had this policy of granting easy marriage annulments been in effect in 1530, it is entirely conceivable that Henry VIII would have been granted his annulment.
I heard that the majority of petitons for annulments come from the USA.
 

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lubeltri said:
Yes, most. That says a lot about American culture, I think.
I heard on the radio that the priest has married his friend.
 

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They are married now:  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31407037/ns/us_news-faith/?GT1=43001

Yahoo has video:  http://www.yahoo.com/
 

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Originally it was in the news section, but its not there now and I tried checking in the video section and its not even there.  If I find it I'll repost the link.
 

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I haven't read through this whole thread, so forgive me if I am repeating something already addressed, but couldn't the man have remained an RC but just given up his priestly status?
 

Ebor

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ChristusDominus said:
Is he going to become an Episcopalian Priest, eventually? Is so, is he over-qualified?

(I hope Ebor doesn't get mad at me for this :p)
Why would I get mad at you?  :)

However, I don't know what "over-qualified" might mean in this case. If you could define it, I can try to answer.  ;)
 

ChristusDominus

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Ebor said:
ChristusDominus said:
Is he going to become an Episcopalian Priest, eventually? Is so, is he over-qualified?

(I hope Ebor doesn't get mad at me for this :p)
Why would I get mad at you?  :)

However, I don't know what "over-qualified" might mean in this case. If you could define it, I can try to answer.  ;)
I thought RC seminarians had to spend more time studying. Many years more compared to an Episcopal seminarian?
 

Ebor

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ChristusDominus said:
Ebor said:
ChristusDominus said:
Is he going to become an Episcopalian Priest, eventually? Is so, is he over-qualified?

(I hope Ebor doesn't get mad at me for this :p)
Why would I get mad at you?  :)

However, I don't know what "over-qualified" might mean in this case. If you could define it, I can try to answer.  ;)
I thought RC seminarians had to spend more time studying. Many years more compared to an Episcopal seminarian?
A friend has told me of an old pattern of a boy attending, I think it was called something like Junior Seminary starting on the priest track at a very young age and then moving on to Seminary proper.  I don't know of there are still the junior versions.  However, I assure you that Anglican clergy have a lot of study with a bachelors, then seminary as well as pastoral work in the field and more.  I would match any Anglican clergy's education to any RC with confidence.  :)
 

ialmisry

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Ebor said:
ChristusDominus said:
Ebor said:
ChristusDominus said:
Is he going to become an Episcopalian Priest, eventually? Is so, is he over-qualified?

(I hope Ebor doesn't get mad at me for this :p)
Why would I get mad at you?  :)

However, I don't know what "over-qualified" might mean in this case. If you could define it, I can try to answer.  ;)
I thought RC seminarians had to spend more time studying. Many years more compared to an Episcopal seminarian?
A friend has told me of an old pattern of a boy attending, I think it was called something like Junior Seminary starting on the priest track at a very young age and then moving on to Seminary proper.  I don't know of there are still the junior versions.  However, I assure you that Anglican clergy have a lot of study with a bachelors, then seminary as well as pastoral work in the field and more.  I would match any Anglican clergy's education to any RC with confidence.   :)
Given what those seminaries are producing, I'm not sure that's a compliment.
 

monkvasyl

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ialmisry said:
Ebor said:
ChristusDominus said:
Ebor said:
ChristusDominus said:
Is he going to become an Episcopalian Priest, eventually? Is so, is he over-qualified?

(I hope Ebor doesn't get mad at me for this :p)
Why would I get mad at you?  :)

However, I don't know what "over-qualified" might mean in this case. If you could define it, I can try to answer.  ;)
I thought RC seminarians had to spend more time studying. Many years more compared to an Episcopal seminarian?
A friend has told me of an old pattern of a boy attending, I think it was called something like Junior Seminary starting on the priest track at a very young age and then moving on to Seminary proper.  I don't know of there are still the junior versions.  However, I assure you that Anglican clergy have a lot of study with a bachelors, then seminary as well as pastoral work in the field and more.  I would match any Anglican clergy's education to any RC with confidence.   :)
Given what those seminaries are producing, I'm not sure that's a compliment.
I attending a RC seminary before becoming Orthodox back in the late 70's...Minor seminaries were already a thing of the past.  Episcopal seminaries may be getting an intense education, but the theology is no were close to being "orthodox".  The new head of the Episcopal Divinity School, in Cambridge, MA, is a lesbian, who is quoted as saying, "Abortion is a blessing."  The article appeared in a recent issue of The Boston Phoenix, a newspaper I only use to line the floor, for my beagles, while I'm at work.  I think I still have a copy if anyone is interested in starting a new topic.  Its an eye opener.

I found the article online:  http://thephoenix.com/Boston/News/84424-blessing-of-abortion/
 

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monkvasyl said:
I attending a RC seminary before becoming Orthodox back in the late 70's...
No wonder you left. What a dreadful time to be in many seminaries. The stories I have heard from priests who managed to make it through!

Thank God things have gotten much better since then, especially in diocesan seminaries.
 

monkvasyl

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lubeltri said:
monkvasyl said:
I attending a RC seminary before becoming Orthodox back in the late 70's...
No wonder you left. What a dreadful time to be in many seminaries. The stories I have heard from priests who managed to make it through!

Thank God things have gotten much better since then, especially in diocesan seminaries.
In case you might be wondering, I was a Franciscan studing at the seminary in Boston, our house was right across from the seminary.  We rented from a group of Irish nuns.  The priest who taught us New Testament studies used Protestant sources.  But our patristics professor, was grounded in good, strong theology.  The one good thing that happened while there was getting to met Mother Teresa.
 

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Some of the most highly educated and well read clergy I have ever known were Episcopalian..we would do well to emulate their system of education in our Orthodox seminaries..
 

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lubeltri said:
No wonder you left. What a dreadful time to be in many seminaries. .
Why do we hear of so many problems with the Catholic seminaries, but not as many with the Orthodox seminaries?
 

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We do not have as many and we have done a better job of hiding our problems. We are not on the radar as there are not as many of us. There have been several sex scandals at St. Vladamir's and Holy Cross and do not forget the former Bishop of Alaska and his overbearing ways at St.Herman's.
 

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monkvasyl said:
lubeltri said:
monkvasyl said:
I attending a RC seminary before becoming Orthodox back in the late 70's...
No wonder you left. What a dreadful time to be in many seminaries. The stories I have heard from priests who managed to make it through!

Thank God things have gotten much better since then, especially in diocesan seminaries.
In case you might be wondering, I was a Franciscan studing at the seminary in Boston, our house was right across from the seminary.  We rented from a group of Irish nuns.  The priest who taught us New Testament studies used Protestant sources.  But our patristics professor, was grounded in good, strong theology.  The one good thing that happened while there was getting to met Mother Teresa.
No kidding! You studied at St. John's Seminary in Brighton?

I often go to St. Anthony's Shrine in Boston, which is run by the OFMs. You were OFM? OFM Conv.? Or a Capuchin?
 

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lubeltri said:
monkvasyl said:
lubeltri said:
monkvasyl said:
I attending a RC seminary before becoming Orthodox back in the late 70's...
No wonder you left. What a dreadful time to be in many seminaries. The stories I have heard from priests who managed to make it through!

Thank God things have gotten much better since then, especially in diocesan seminaries.
In case you might be wondering, I was a Franciscan studing at the seminary in Boston, our house was right across from the seminary.  We rented from a group of Irish nuns.  The priest who taught us New Testament studies used Protestant sources.  But our patristics professor, was grounded in good, strong theology.  The one good thing that happened while there was getting to met Mother Teresa.
No kidding! You studied at St. John's Seminary in Brighton?

I often go to St. Anthony's Shrine in Boston, which is run by the OFMs. You were OFM? OFM Conv.? Or a Capuchin?
Yes, St. John's was my stomping ground.  I was OFM, like at the Shrine, but our group were Italians (Immaculate Conception Province) and most of our houses were in Cambridge, the North End and East Boston.  The group that ran the Shrine were the Holy Name Province, who had a parish in my neighborhood back in Wilkes-Barre, PA.
 

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SDMPNS said:
Some of the most highly educated and well read clergy I have ever known were Episcopalian..we would do well to emulate their system of education in our Orthodox seminaries..
And end up with this?

http://www.stjoan.com/er7/spong/michael.jpg

despite the efforts of some (a certain seminary is noted for lack of pastoral sense, and exalting higher criticism for Holy T/tradition.  No, not Holy Cross), no thanks.
 

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WE would be a little more discerning..after all we do have Truth on our side
 

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monkvasyl said:
Yes, St. John's was my stomping ground.  I was OFM, like at the Shrine, but our group were Italians (Immaculate Conception Province) and most of our houses were in Cambridge, the North End and East Boston. 
Yes---I go to the Italian Mass sometimes at St. Leonard's (I used to live in the North End). Good group of Italian friars there.
 

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I'm unfortunately all-too-familiar with the Episcopal Divinity School near Harvard Square in Cambridge.

The new "abortion is a blessing" rector has been quite the talk of the town lately:



A Harvard friend not long ago directed me to their course catalog. An example of one of the courses in their Theology department:

T 3150 Queer Incarnation

The incarnation is sometimes presented as an arithmetic problem: What do you get when you add some divinity to a human body? But thinking about incarnation has to start much further back, in the realization that accounts of Jesus show us how little we understand about either divinity or bodies, much less about how bodies can show, act, and becomes divine. Just here and theology of the incarnation can learn from works of queer theory and the writings of queer thinkers. The body of Jesus - despised, de-sexed, and yet miraculously distrubuted - invites us to an exchange of bodies along the margins of human power and its certainties. We will think about the queerness of Jesus' body with the help of some traditional texts on incarnation and passion (Athanasius, Bonaventure, Aquinas, Julian) and much more recent work on gender performance, bodily transition or transformation, and the rituals of camp.

That last phrase made me laugh.

 

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monkvasyl said:
The new head of the Episcopal Divinity School, in Cambridge, MA, is a lesbian, who is quoted as saying, "Abortion is a blessing."  The article appeared in a recent issue of The Boston Phoenix, a newspaper I only use to line the floor, for my beagles, while I'm at work.  I think I still have a copy if anyone is interested in starting a new topic.  Its an eye opener.
Thank you for sharing this.  Some of my fellow students and co-workers in my secular, state-sponsored Religious Studies program are Episcopalians.  This reflects the attitudes of every single one of these individuals.  One such student plans to attend a theological seminary in California after completing her master's degree, as it has always been her dream to be a priestess.  She left the Roman Catholic Church several years ago to be able to fulfill this dream.

When these people found out I was becoming Orthodox, their reaction was less than enthusiastic.  They see the Orthodox Church as even more backwards than the Roman Catholic Church; still being light years away from championing the rights of women.  They are right in many ways, but whatever good intentions they may have, they are primarily social activists.  Seekers of a pious life seems to be at the bottom of their list of priorities.
 
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