Problems with the Western Rite

[hecma925]

I thought there was an epiclesis in the ancient rites.

 

[Samn!]

So's the robust young minority using the traditional Latin Mass, etc.

These movements are very marginal and largely limited to the US.

Orthodox churches often use liturgical languages.

Yes, and in my own opinion this isn't ideal... On the other hand, there are Novus Ordo masses in Latin sometimes. The real issue is the heresy of trilingualism, which Vatican II ended.

It's older than the two Byzantine Rite anaphoras.

Yes, but it's still an outlier from all the other Apostolic liturgies that was good to correct.

 

[Serge]

The Roman Canon never had a descending epiclesis. One is not necessary.

I was interested in John of Shanghai and San Francisco's words; I know his Gallican Rite was byzantinized so I don't like it.

"I disagree with the Catholic Church" is irrelevant. Not an excuse for byzantinizing WRO.

Yes, but it's [no descending epiclesis] still an outlier from all the other Apostolic liturgies that was good to correct.

Ethnocultural triumphalism. On Orthodoxy's terms the traditional Roman Rite doesn't need correcting other than the filioque.

 

[Deacon Lance]

I thought there was an epiclesis in the ancient rites.

Indeed. The ascending Epiclesis of the Roman Canon:

In humble prayer we ask you, almighty God: command that these gifts be borne by the hands of your holy Angel to your altar on high in the sight of your divine majesty, so that all of us, who through this participation at the altar receive the most holy Body and Blood of your Son, may be filled with every grace and heavenly blessing.

 

[hecma925]

Indeed. The ascending Epiclesis of the Roman Canon:

In humble prayer we ask you, almighty God: command that these gifts be borne by the hands of your holy Angel to your altar on high in the sight of your divine majesty, so that all of us, who through this participation at the altar receive the most holy Body and Blood of your Son, may be filled with every grace and heavenly blessing.

Thank you. I was sure I had read that fact, but it's good to see the actual words. At what point did it fall into disuse?

 

[Serge]

Thank you. I was sure I had read that fact, but it's good to see the actual words. At what point did it fall into disuse?

Never.

 

[Deacon Lance]

Thank you. I was sure I had read that fact, but it's good to see the actual words. At what point did it fall into disuse?

It didn’t. In some Western Rite churches the Descending Epiclesis from the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom has been added right before Ascending one in the Roman Canon even though Orthodox Saints like St Germanus and St Simeon the Theologian understood the Roman Canon as having an Epiclesis. There is a ROCOR monastery in Germany that celebrates the Roman Mass without the Byzantine interpolation.

 

[Deacon Lance]

I don't have a source for their precise liturgical texts, but that was what I saw visiting there and this is how they describe it themselves:

On the East side, we sing polyphonies from the Russian or Greek liturgy (hymns, troparia, antiphons from the transcription and translation work carried out by the Abbey of Chevetogne). On the Western side, we draw above all from the “Choral Liturgy of the People of God” of Father André Gouzes o.p. which are recent compositions, but whose melodies draw their inspiration from a whole ancient heritage: Gregorian, choirs, traditional songs ...

 

[Katechon]

"I disagree with the Catholic Church" is irrelevant. Not an excuse for byzantinizing WRO.

You are not Orthodox. Shut up.

 

[Ainnir]

Thread locked pending moderator review.
—Ainnir

 

[Ainnir]

This thread is remaining locked. It became way too polemical for the forum it's in and I think most people were able to make their point several times. Please forgive any part I played in its deterioration. Those interested in polemics are encouraged to stick to the private fora.
Thanks. --Ainnir