Question about intercession prayers

walter1234

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9.When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.

10.There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.

11.Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

12.For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

13.Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
Some Protestant Christians said that we should not pray to saints according to Deuteronomy 18: 9-13 . What is the difference between cosulter with familiar spirits , necromancer  and intercession prayer?
 

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walter1234 said:
9.When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.

10.There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.

11.Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

12.For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

13.Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
Some Protestant Christians said that we should not pray to saints according to Deuteronomy 18: 9-13 . What is the difference between cosulter with familiar spirits , necromancer  and intercession prayer?
For one, when we pray to the saints, we're not trying to conjure up the spirits of the dead.
 

Cyrillic

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Severian said:
sheenj said:
walter1234 said:
I want to ask one question. Are there any records about intercession prayers  in 1st - 2nd century?
Wasn't this the reason Early Christians prayed in the crypts of their departed brethren?
I remember reading a portion of St. Polycarp's epistle which seemed to allude to intercessory prayers. I'll try to give a reference tomorrow.
Well?
 

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Cyrillic said:
Severian said:
sheenj said:
walter1234 said:
I want to ask one question. Are there any records about intercession prayers  in 1st - 2nd century?
Wasn't this the reason Early Christians prayed in the crypts of their departed brethren?
I remember reading a portion of St. Polycarp's epistle which seemed to allude to intercessory prayers. I'll try to give a reference tomorrow.
Well?
Here:

"Pray for all the saints. Pray also for kings, and potentates, and princes, and for those that persecute and hate you, and for the enemies of the cross, that your fruit may be manifest to all, and that you may be perfect in Him." -Chapter 12

Not sure if that really helps. :-\
 

Asteriktos

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Severian said:
Cyrillic said:
Severian said:
sheenj said:
walter1234 said:
I want to ask one question. Are there any records about intercession prayers  in 1st - 2nd century?
Wasn't this the reason Early Christians prayed in the crypts of their departed brethren?
I remember reading a portion of St. Polycarp's epistle which seemed to allude to intercessory prayers. I'll try to give a reference tomorrow.
Well?
Here:

"Pray for all the saints. Pray also for kings, and potentates, and princes, and for those that persecute and hate you, Matthew 5:44 and for the enemies of the cross, that your fruit may be manifest to all, and that you may be perfect in Him." -Chapter 12

Not sure if that really helps. :-\
See also: The Martyrdom of Ignatius, 7
 

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walter1234 said:
9.When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.

10.There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.

11.Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

12.For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

13.Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
Some Protestant Christians said that we should not pray to saints according to Deuteronomy 18: 9-13 . What is the difference between cosulter with familiar spirits , necromancer  and intercession prayer?
Such a prohibition is against magic. Prayer is not magic. We do not summon saints to do our bidding, rather we pray for their assistance and intercession. I would also argue that the saints are not truly dead, as they reside in Christ...and a man in Christ is alive, even though he is dead (think of the raising of Lazarus: "I am the resurrection and the life..."). Christ has shattered death. This was not yet the reality for those living under the Mosaic Law.
 

walter1234

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Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?
 

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walter1234 said:
Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?
They are not dead:

But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+22&version=NIV
 

jmbejdl

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walter1234 said:
Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?
No. We pray for those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints, but those that have been are venerated and asked for their prayers instead.

James
 

walter1234

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jmbejdl said:
walter1234 said:
Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?
No. We pray for those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints, but those that have been are venerated and asked for their prayers instead.

James
Why do we only pray for and bless those who have passed on but have not been recognised as  saints?

Virgin Mary and dead saints are our brother's and sisters as well.Why can't we pray for and bless  the dead saints and Virgin Mary?
 

mike

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walter1234 said:
Why do we only pray for and bless those who have passed on but have not been recognised as  saints?

Virgin Mary and dead saints are our brother's and sisters as well.Why can't we pray for and bless  the dead saints and Virgin Mary?
Thay don't need it.
 

jmbejdl

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walter1234 said:
jmbejdl said:
walter1234 said:
Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?
No. We pray for those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints, but those that have been are venerated and asked for their prayers instead.

James
Why do we only pray for and bless those who have passed on but have not been recognised as  saints?

Virgin Mary and dead saints are our brother's and sisters as well.Why can't we pray for and bless  the dead saints and Virgin Mary?
Why would they need our prayers? God has revealed to us that they are with Him, so we ask them to pray for us and pray with them for others. I may need the help and intercessions of the saints in trying to live a life worthy of God, but I fail to see what aid my intercessions could be for one who has already done so.

Having said that, I'm not sure that there's a prohibition against it, just that we don't do it, at least never in my experience.

James
 

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walter1234 said:
jmbejdl said:
walter1234 said:
Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?
No. We pray for those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints, but those that have been are venerated and asked for their prayers instead.

James
Why do we only pray for and bless those who have passed on but have not been recognised as  saints?

Virgin Mary and dead saints are our brother's and sisters as well.Why can't we pray for and bless  the dead saints and Virgin Mary?

We already do...

"Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith.
Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary...  For Saint John the prophet, forerunner, and baptist; for the holy glorious and most honorable Apostles, for Saints(s) (Name(s)) whose memory we commemorate today; and for all Your saints, through whose supplications, O God, bless us. Remember also all who have fallen asleep in the hope of resurrection unto eternal life. (Here the priest commemorates the names of the deceased.) And grant them rest, our God, where the light of Your countenance shines. Again, we ask You, Lord, remember all Orthodox bishops who rightly teach the word of Your truth, all presbyters, all deacons in the service of Christ, and every one in holy orders. We also offer to You this spiritual worship for the whole world, for the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and for those living in purity and holiness. And for all those in public service; permit them, Lord, to serve and govern in peace that through the faithful conduct of their duties we may live peaceful and serene lives in all piety and holiness."
 

walter1234

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Father H said:
walter1234 said:
jmbejdl said:
walter1234 said:
Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?
No. We pray for those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints, but those that have been are venerated and asked for their prayers instead.

James
Why do we only pray for and bless those who have passed on but have not been recognised as  saints?

Virgin Mary and dead saints are our brother's and sisters as well.Why can't we pray for and bless  the dead saints and Virgin Mary?

We already do...

"Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith.

Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary...  For Saint John the prophet, forerunner, and baptist; for the holy glorious and most honorable Apostles, for Saints(s) (Name(s)) whose memory we commemorate today; and for all Your saints, through whose supplications, O God, bless us. Remember also all who have fallen asleep in the hope of resurrection unto eternal life. (Here the priest commemorates the names of the deceased.) And grant them rest, our God, where the light of Your countenance shines. Again, we ask You, Lord, remember all Orthodox bishops who rightly teach the word of Your truth, all presbyters, all deacons in the service of Christ, and every one in holy orders. We also offer to You this spiritual worship for the whole world, for the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and for those living in purity and holiness. And for all those in public service; permit them, Lord, to serve and govern in peace that through the faithful conduct of their duties we may live peaceful and serene lives in all piety and holiness."
Spiritual worship  for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets,evangelists?

As what I know , Orthodox Christian honor them (honor the miracles works God manifested on them), but not worship them. Isn't it?
 

Delphine

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walter1234 said:
Father H said:
We already do...

"Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith.

Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary...  For Saint John the prophet, forerunner, and baptist; for the holy glorious and most honorable Apostles, for Saints(s) (Name(s)) whose memory we commemorate today; and for all Your saints, through whose supplications, O God, bless us. Remember also all who have fallen asleep in the hope of resurrection unto eternal life. (Here the priest commemorates the names of the deceased.) And grant them rest, our God, where the light of Your countenance shines. Again, we ask You, Lord, remember all Orthodox bishops who rightly teach the word of Your truth, all presbyters, all deacons in the service of Christ, and every one in holy orders. We also offer to You this spiritual worship for the whole world, for the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and for those living in purity and holiness. And for all those in public service; permit them, Lord, to serve and govern in peace that through the faithful conduct of their duties we may live peaceful and serene lives in all piety and holiness."
Spiritual worship   for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets,evangelists?

As what I know , Orthodox Christian honor them (honor the miracles works God manifested on them), but not worship them. Isn't it?
I think Father H was giving an example of praying for the saints. It doesn't say "spiritual worship to those who repose in faith." We're making an offering of our spiritual worship to God on behalf of those who repose in faith.

EDIT: Although... is this a matter of prayer for the saints for their benefit, or are we saying that we're representing the saints in prayer?
 

FatherHLL

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walter1234 said:
Father H said:
walter1234 said:
jmbejdl said:
walter1234 said:
Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?
No. We pray for those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints, but those that have been are venerated and asked for their prayers instead.

James
Why do we only pray for and bless those who have passed on but have not been recognised as  saints?

Virgin Mary and dead saints are our brother's and sisters as well.Why can't we pray for and bless  the dead saints and Virgin Mary?

We already do...

"Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith.

Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary...  For Saint John the prophet, forerunner, and baptist; for the holy glorious and most honorable Apostles, for Saints(s) (Name(s)) whose memory we commemorate today; and for all Your saints, through whose supplications, O God, bless us. Remember also all who have fallen asleep in the hope of resurrection unto eternal life. (Here the priest commemorates the names of the deceased.) And grant them rest, our God, where the light of Your countenance shines. Again, we ask You, Lord, remember all Orthodox bishops who rightly teach the word of Your truth, all presbyters, all deacons in the service of Christ, and every one in holy orders. We also offer to You this spiritual worship for the whole world, for the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and for those living in purity and holiness. And for all those in public service; permit them, Lord, to serve and govern in peace that through the faithful conduct of their duties we may live peaceful and serene lives in all piety and holiness."
Spiritual worship  for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets,evangelists?

As what I know , Orthodox Christian honor them (honor the miracles works God manifested on them), but not worship them. Isn't it?
What is your problem?  I took the time to answer your question, and you treat me like a jerk.  You know very well that the spiritual worship is offered to God on behalf of all those listed, including saints and those who have reposed (mentioned right after the canonized saints) and then the living.  I know that you cannot be that thick so you are just being rude.  Read the whole anaphora and then apologize. 
 

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Father H said:
walter1234 said:
Father H said:
walter1234 said:
jmbejdl said:
walter1234 said:
Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?
No. We pray for those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints, but those that have been are venerated and asked for their prayers instead.

James
Why do we only pray for and bless those who have passed on but have not been recognised as  saints?

Virgin Mary and dead saints are our brother's and sisters as well.Why can't we pray for and bless  the dead saints and Virgin Mary?

We already do...

"Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith.

Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary...  For Saint John the prophet, forerunner, and baptist; for the holy glorious and most honorable Apostles, for Saints(s) (Name(s)) whose memory we commemorate today; and for all Your saints, through whose supplications, O God, bless us. Remember also all who have fallen asleep in the hope of resurrection unto eternal life. (Here the priest commemorates the names of the deceased.) And grant them rest, our God, where the light of Your countenance shines. Again, we ask You, Lord, remember all Orthodox bishops who rightly teach the word of Your truth, all presbyters, all deacons in the service of Christ, and every one in holy orders. We also offer to You this spiritual worship for the whole world, for the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and for those living in purity and holiness. And for all those in public service; permit them, Lord, to serve and govern in peace that through the faithful conduct of their duties we may live peaceful and serene lives in all piety and holiness."
Spiritual worship  for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets,evangelists?

As what I know , Orthodox Christian honor them (honor the miracles works God manifested on them), but not worship them. Isn't it?
What is your problem?  I took the time to answer your question, and you treat me like a jerk.  You know very well that the spiritual worship is offered to God on behalf of all those listed, including saints and those who have reposed (mentioned right after the canonized saints) and then the living.  I know that you cannot be that thick so you are just being rude.  Read the whole anaphora and then apologize. 
With all respect Father, I don' see rudeness in his post. Confusion maybe but not rudeness.
 

JamesRottnek

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Ansgar said:
Father H said:
walter1234 said:
Father H said:
walter1234 said:
jmbejdl said:
walter1234 said:
Do Orthodox Christians pray for or bless the dead saints and Virgin Mary in their prayers?
No. We pray for those who have passed on but have not been recognised as saints, but those that have been are venerated and asked for their prayers instead.

James
Why do we only pray for and bless those who have passed on but have not been recognised as  saints?

Virgin Mary and dead saints are our brother's and sisters as well.Why can't we pray for and bless  the dead saints and Virgin Mary?

We already do...

"Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith.

Especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary...  For Saint John the prophet, forerunner, and baptist; for the holy glorious and most honorable Apostles, for Saints(s) (Name(s)) whose memory we commemorate today; and for all Your saints, through whose supplications, O God, bless us. Remember also all who have fallen asleep in the hope of resurrection unto eternal life. (Here the priest commemorates the names of the deceased.) And grant them rest, our God, where the light of Your countenance shines. Again, we ask You, Lord, remember all Orthodox bishops who rightly teach the word of Your truth, all presbyters, all deacons in the service of Christ, and every one in holy orders. We also offer to You this spiritual worship for the whole world, for the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and for those living in purity and holiness. And for all those in public service; permit them, Lord, to serve and govern in peace that through the faithful conduct of their duties we may live peaceful and serene lives in all piety and holiness."
Spiritual worship  for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets,evangelists?

As what I know , Orthodox Christian honor them (honor the miracles works God manifested on them), but not worship them. Isn't it?
What is your problem?  I took the time to answer your question, and you treat me like a jerk.  You know very well that the spiritual worship is offered to God on behalf of all those listed, including saints and those who have reposed (mentioned right after the canonized saints) and then the living.  I know that you cannot be that thick so you are just being rude.  Read the whole anaphora and then apologize. 
With all respect Father, I don' see rudeness in his post. Confusion maybe but not rudeness.
I have to agree Father.  I don't know how many of Walter's other posts you've read, but he's from (I believe) Hong Kong, and English is most definitely not his first language. 
 

Maximum Bob

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I would also add that, while Father Hill and Delphine it seems are indicating that the worship is offered for the Saints not to the to the Saints, if they were saying differently the word worship in the English language can have several meanings. Some of these meanings do indeed allow it to be applied to humans. It is a Protestant mistake to take words like worship or save or even pray and apply them very narrowly and only to God.
 

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Maximum Bob said:
I would also add that, while Father Hill and Delphine it seems are indicating that the worship is offered for the Saints not to the to the Saints, if they were saying differently the word worship in the English language can have several meanings. Some of these meanings do indeed allow it to be applied to humans. It is a Protestant mistake to take words like worship or save or even pray and apply them very narrowly and only to God.
Who is Father Hill?  Also, the Anaphora is offered to the Trinity, and it is adoration, worship, on behalf of the saints and sinners alike, and "for the whole world"  So in this case, a different meaning of worship than latreia is not necessary. 
 
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