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methodius

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Hi Mor!
I googled pan bagnat, found a recipe for the filling; and saw a pic.
You can invite me to dinner any time!
with 100,000 ingredients, I,m sure it does take a while.
Well maybe not - quite - that many!
 

methodius

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@ William: I was taught that only God knows His essences, we can know and participate in His energies.
So since Mary is a human being, she cannot know the  'essences' of God'.
 

TheTrisagion

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Asteriktos said:
William said:
Does Mary know the essence of God?
Is this a trick question?  :angel: I ask because of the thread it is in...
This is oc.net.  We can seamlessly interweave between hypostatis and hat tricks.
 

Apples

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I have also been taught that no man can know the essence of God. But maybe the one higher than even the brightest seraph can know God? The liturgy makes quite a bit of the fact that the burning bush was not consumed even when it held the unquenchable fire. Was that just an energy? Can a mother not know her son?
 

methodius

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Mankind and the angels are 'created' beings;
the 'creature' cannot 'know' the Creator.

And the Theotokos is a human being - the highest of the high
but a 'creature' nonetheless.She is not God so she cannot know/partake of the Divine Essences.
and yes, of course she can know her Son, insofar as He is perfect Man -(as well as perfect God.)
 

Apples

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James and I were discussing how Christ must not have an intellect since He does not have a gnomic will. I have been pondering on how to give up on having an intellect. Maybe that is what OC.net is for?
 

biro

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William said:
James and I were discussing how Christ must not have an intellect since He does not have a gnomic will. I have been pondering on how to give up on having an intellect. Maybe that is what OC.net is for?
That's what the Politics board is for. ;)
 

methodius

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your conclusion is based on a faulty premise. Lack of gnomic will does not 'ipso facto' result in, nor imply a lack of intellect.
For instance, what was Jesus at  the age of twelve doing, if not using His intellect when debating with the elders of the Temple.?
Was His intellect not involved when He drove the merchants and money-changers from the Temple?
and so on...
 

Apples

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methodius said:
your conclusion is based on a faulty premise. Lack of gnomic will does not 'ipso facto' result in, nor imply a lack of intellect.
For instance, what was Jesus at  the age of twelve doing, if not using His intellect when debating with the elders of the Temple.?
Was His intellect not involved when He drove the merchants and money-changers from the Temple?
and so on...
The words came from His heart and did not need refinement in an evil mind.
 

methodius

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evil mind?!!!!!
how do you arrive at that conclusion?
remember, 'Perfect Man' as well as 'Perfect God.'

In any case, the 'fasting and praying' which He did so often would have purified an 'evil mind.'
 

Apples

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That is not to say that Christ had an evil mind, but that minds in general are evil (Genesis 6:5), and so Christ lacked a mind at all.
 

methodius

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all men have minds; ( well, in theory, anyway!) although sometimes it's hard to determine!
Christ is a Man (The Man we all should have been)
so Christ has a mind.
Could a person - any person- go through the agony in the Garden of Gethsename without an intellect?
 

methodius

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sho' nuff.
An egreeegious heresy!


*makes the sign of the Cross*
Perhaps  William could 'google' apollinarianism to see just what the definition is; and how it fits his argument.
 

Apples

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Asteriktos said:
William said:
That is not to say that Christ had an evil mind, but that minds in general are evil (Genesis 6:5), and so Christ lacked a mind at all.
Apollinarianism?
It is not that Christ is a human body inhabited by God in lieu of a soul as the accursed Apollinaris taught, but that Christ's human nature was so thoroughly deified that it had no need of postlapsarian creations such as a deliberating intellect. The same is true of the saints who learn to eliminate their thoughts and make their minds completely silent and still. So my heresy at the very least is not incarnational.
 

JamesR

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Cyrillic said:
JamesR said:
I had a very bizarre dream the other morning.
Pray tell.
Well, perhaps it was induced by the cherry popsicle and aspirins I took to deal with my migraine, but the dream was a series of bizarre events.

First, I was at the dentist about to get a root canal, but the dentist was possessed by the yellow-eyed demon Azazel so I threw a molotov cocktail on him and escaped out the window. Then I was at Church, and the service kept systematically changing. First it was Pascha night, and for some reason my Priest gave me the Eucharist with unleavened bread and I thought it was heretical and almost had a temper tantrum, then it became the Nativity and the power went out in my Church. Then out of nowhere 6 attractive blonde women came up to me in a single-file line and each hugged and kissed me, telling me how much they loved a straight-edged virginal religious man (that's when I knew I was dreaming) and then I was on the couch with my brother watching Anthony Burdain's No Reservations, and my dad was clapping and cheering me on for attracting so many girls. Then I woke up and that was that.
 

Asteriktos

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Unless I am misunderstanding you, St. Gregory (see these letters) seems to argue against what you are saying. Apollinarius apparently thought that Christ had a human soul and body, but not a mind. To this St. Gregory argued that the whole human person fell from grace (including mind), and so the whole human person needed to be part of the solution. This is where the famous phrase comes in about: "that which is not assumed is not healed." Though once you get into discussions of will and assent I suppose I am not aware enough about the details.
 

methodius

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a 'deliberating intellect'  is NOT a postlapsarian, we - mankind - were created in the 'image and likeness' of God.
The 'image' is our reasoning power. That is how we were created - at the beginning.
The 'likeness' of course is what we strive to achieve in theosis.
Do some reading in Irenaeus - Adversus haerises.
 

Apples

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methodius said:
a 'deliberating intellect'  is NOT a postlapsarian, we - mankind - were created in the 'image and likeness' of God.
The 'image' is our reasoning power. That is how we were created - at the beginning.
The 'likeness' of course is what we strive to achieve in theosis.
Do some reading in Irenaeus - Adversus haerises.
Actually, it is a well established tenet of Orthodox Christology that Christ did not deliberate, following St. Maximus and co. in the monothelete controversy.

Remember that the fruit that Eve and Adam ate was of "knowledge of good and evil." Ironically, instead of becoming like God as Satan promised, they fell from God, for God does not know how to choose evil like man does.

Asteriktos, you're right that St. Gregory wrote that Christ assumed and healed the intellect. But what did he mean by intellect? One that can give equal weight to good and evil during deliberations?
 

DeniseDenise

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The lady that called this in will be getting free sodas for life at every place in town...


When Chelsie Shellhas saw a tall young man slip into a storage locker and shut the door behind him one evening this week, it just looked wrong. She dialed 911.
Her instincts were right: Behind the door were bomb-making materials, police in Wacesa, Minnesota, said Thursday. Her call thwarted a cunningly planned gun and bomb attack at a school, they say.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/02/justice/minnesota-attack-thwarted/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
 

biro

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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-schuermann/greek-orthodox-churches-i_b_5231929.html

Some beautiful churches on the island of Ios in Greece.
 

Mor Ephrem

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JamesR said:
Well, perhaps it was induced by the cherry popsicle and aspirins I took to deal with my migraine, but the dream was a series of bizarre events.

First, I was at the dentist about to get a root canal, but the dentist was possessed by the yellow-eyed demon Azazel so I threw a molotov cocktail on him and escaped out the window. Then I was at Church, and the service kept systematically changing. First it was Pascha night, and for some reason my Priest gave me the Eucharist with unleavened bread and I thought it was heretical and almost had a temper tantrum, then it became the Nativity and the power went out in my Church. Then out of nowhere 6 attractive blonde women came up to me in a single-file line and each hugged and kissed me, telling me how much they loved a straight-edged virginal religious man (that's when I knew I was dreaming) and then I was on the couch with my brother watching Anthony Burdain's No Reservations, and my dad was clapping and cheering me on for attracting so many girls. Then I woke up and that was that.
That sounds more or less like most of the dreams I have that I can remember upon waking: a series of nonsensical, seemingly unconnected events that are a mix of things earthly and hellish. 
 

Nephi

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^Almost every dream I have and remember is apocalyptic for some reason. Either the world is ending (a different way each time) or some other cataclysmic event is taking place. I don't know why.
 

Mor Ephrem

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Nephi said:
^Almost every dream I have and remember is apocalyptic for some reason. Either the world is ending (a different way each time) or some other cataclysmic event is taking place. I don't know why.
Once, in my dreams, I got off the school bus, walked to my home, and opened the door, only to have really loud death metal blasting from some huge speakers that I didn't own, and Marvel Comics' Ghost Rider, skull aflame, run me over with his motorcycle.

Those are entertaining.  When I see future events and they come true, however, that creeps me out a little.   
 

DeniseDenise

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Mor Ephrem said:
Nephi said:
^Almost every dream I have and remember is apocalyptic for some reason. Either the world is ending (a different way each time) or some other cataclysmic event is taking place. I don't know why.
Once, in my dreams, I got off the school bus, walked to my home, and opened the door, only to have really loud death metal blasting from some huge speakers that I didn't own, and Marvel Comics' Ghost Rider, skull aflame, run me over with his motorcycle.
]
so you had a dream that you were Asteriktos??
 

Nephi

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Mor Ephrem said:
Nephi said:
^Almost every dream I have and remember is apocalyptic for some reason. Either the world is ending (a different way each time) or some other cataclysmic event is taking place. I don't know why.
Once, in my dreams, I got off the school bus, walked to my home, and opened the door, only to have really loud death metal blasting from some huge speakers that I didn't own, and Marvel Comics' Ghost Rider, skull aflame, run me over with his motorcycle.

Those are entertaining.  When I see future events and they come true, however, that creeps me out a little.   
That does sound interesting, minus the getting run over bit. I think I've always had strange dreams, when I think about it. The first dream I can remember was when I was like 4, and in it my mom was swallowed whole by a snake who then went back into his hole in the ground.

One of the dreams I had in middle school was my entire class having been taken captive by these little goblin things and led single-file into a big, boiling pot.

An apocalyptic dream I had a while back had a surprise-twist ending, though. In the dream, parts of the world were slowly yet systematically being destroyed by cataclysmic events/storms, until finally it my area's time to perish (part of the dream, IIRC, was me on the run and watching the destruction on the news). Then next thing you know, this deity-figure recreates the world all nice and happy-like, and there we go.
 

Asteriktos

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Being forced to listen to death metal would be my nightmare. :police:
 

Nephi

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Asteriktos said:
Being forced to listen to death metal would be my nightmare. :police:
Even melodic death metal? I haven't listened to the stuff in years, but In Flames was good back in the day.
 

WPM

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Not everything fits in the context of  Christianity.
 

Asteriktos

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Nephi said:
Asteriktos said:
Being forced to listen to death metal would be my nightmare. :police:
Even melodic death metal? I haven't listened to the stuff in years, but In Flames was good back in the day.
Yeah, I think I have one death metal record, and haven't liked anything else I've heard from that type of music.
 
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