reasons for rejecting the bible/religion/whatever

PeterTheAleut

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Cyrillic said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Cyrillic said:
Calling people names like "hypocrite" and "antichrist" is not a nice thing to do.
Then Jesus and His apostles were not nice men.
"Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. (Ephesians 4:15)"

I think I prefer this approach.
But does love = nice? When Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites and white-washed tombs, He wasn't speaking the truth in love? From my own personal experience, I can tell you that one of the most loving things anyone ever did for me was slap me upside the head with a proverbial 2-by-4.

I know you're speaking to SBC94, but the words you address to him undermine also the legitimate way some of us have related to him.
 

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Ah, I see your point and can hardly argue against it. But still it doesn't really feel right, but that's just me.
 

SavedByChrist94

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LBK said:
SavedByChrist94 said:
SolEX01 said:
SavedByChrist94 said:
SolEX01 said:
SavedbyChrist94 chooses to use a politically correct translation of the Bible which is only 18 years old (dating back to 1995):

Words and Phrases that could be misunderstood due to changes in their meaning during the past 20 years have been updated to current English
http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-American-Standard-Bible-NASB/
Nope, using one that's used in Biblelexicon.org, as it is most literal, BUT if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments.
The Lockman Foundation is behind the New American Standard Bible.  That's the translation you've been using.  Find out more about them here:

http://www.lockman.org/tlf/tlfhistory.php

SavedByChrist94 said:
Also, all translations are bad, you want The Truth? Go to the Greeks, for example in the translations, Matthew 5:28 would look like it says looking at a woman would be a sin, however in The Originals it says coveting a wife(aka looking to commit adultery) which makes sense as looking at a woman isn't adultery and whoever says it is adds to God's Word.
What are "The Originals?"
Greek Manuscripts. also like I said because you keep bringing up the NASB version, " if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments."
OK, then, here is Matthew 5:28 in the original Greek:

28 ᾿Εγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ βλέπων γυναῖκα πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ.

The bolded word gynaika means both wife and woman in every form of Greek language, from Homer's time to the present day modern language. Still want to argue that fornication is not a sin, SBC94?
Of course it's both wife and woman, however in this verse it means wife, want proof?

᾿Εγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ βλέπων γυναῖκα πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ.

πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι means pros to epithumēsai

pros to comes BEFORE epithumēsai

So that means in order to epithumēsai(proof?

“Beware of practicing your righteousness before men in order to be noticed by them.” (Matt 6:1)

Original Greek - Προσέχετε [a]δὲ τὴν δικαιοσύνην ὑμῶν μὴ ποιεῖν ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ἀνθρώπων πρὸς τὸ θεαθῆναι αὐτοῖς· εἰ δὲ μή γε, μισθὸν οὐκ ἔχετε παρὰ τῷ πατρὶ ὑμῶν τῷ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.

“… First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles in order to burn them up ….” (Matt 13:30)

Original Greek, 30 ἄφετε συναυξάνεσθαι ἀμφότερα [a]μέχρι τοῦ θερισμοῦ· καὶ ἐν καιρῷ τοῦ θερισμοῦ ἐρῶ τοῖς θερισταῖς· Συλλέξατε πρῶτον τὰ ζιζάνια καὶ δήσατε αὐτὰ εἰς δέσμας πρὸς τὸ κατακαῦσαι αὐτά, τὸν δὲ σῖτον συναγάγετε εἰς τὴν ἀποθήκην μου.

“But they do all their deeds in order to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.” (Matt 23:5)

Original Greek - 5 πάντα δὲ τὰ ἔργα αὐτῶν ποιοῦσιν πρὸς τὸ θεαθῆναι τοῖς ἀνθρώποις· πλατύνουσι [a]γὰρ τὰ φυλακτήρια αὐτῶν καὶ μεγαλύνουσι τὰ κράσπεδα,

“For when she poured this perfume on my body, she did it in order to prepare me for burial.” (Matt 26:12)

Original Greek - 12 βαλοῦσα γὰρ αὕτη τὸ μύρον τοῦτο ἐπὶ τοῦ σώματός μου πρὸς τὸ ἐνταφιάσαι με ἐποίησεν.

All from Matthew.)



now lets go through all the definitions of epithumēsai( I long for, covet, lust after, set the heart upon.) and see which can be put in the proper  sentence,


Lust is a desire, not an action even diliberate lust isn't doing something, an action is something you do, whoever looks at a woman in order to, means in order to do something, do what? lust is an emotion, a desire, etc, not an action, so this definition is null and void. if Jesus Christ meant lusting after a woman was a sin, then He would have said, whoever looks at a woman AND lust, etc, but He said whoever looks at a woman IN ORDER TO, so it's to do something, added with epithumesai is a verb, an action.

Since pros to makes this an action,  whether you like it or not, lust long for, and set the heart upon definitions are out.

Now, the last definition would be Covet, lets see,

Matthew 5:27-28 - You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman in order to covet her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Added with the fact that the word for covet and woman/wife are the same in Exodus 20:17(Septuagint)

οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις τὴν γυναῖκα τοῦ πλησίον σου. οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις τὴν οἰκίαν τοῦ πλησίον σου οὔτε τὸν ἀγρὸν αὐτοῦ οὔτε τὸν παῖδα αὐτοῦ οὔτε τὴν παιδίσκην αὐτοῦ οὔτε τοῦ βοὸς αὐτοῦ οὔτε τοῦ ὑποζυγίου αὐτοῦ οὔτε παντὸς κτήνους αὐτοῦ οὔτε ὅσα τῷ πλησίον σού ἐστιν. (Ex 20:17 LXX)

Added with looks at a woman in order to.

The intent of the look for for a purpose, the purpose of what? in order to do what? and that in order to do is epithumesai(verb) her

So it should be rendered,

You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman(as same word for woman/wife is used in Septuagint version of 10th Commandment) with the intention(due to looking at a woman in order to epithumesai(verb) her) of taking her(stealing her from the husband or cheating with her due to 10th Commandment) has already committed adultery(Sex between married person and someone outside of relationship, aka cheating) with her in his heart.


So Jesus Christ is just retelling the law(Thou Shall Not Commit Adultery and 10th Commandment), He never added to The Law, The Law He originally gave at The Exodus was Fine.

Now with this fact, that covet is an action and not a desire and as proven by http://Goddidntsaythat.com/2011/03/02/the-ten-commandments-dont-forbid-coveting/

Covet in The 10 Commandments means take.

why? read the link and the fact that The 8th Commandment "Thou Shall Not Steal" uses the word ganab which can mean Kidnap

God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) gave commandments, prohibitions, on actions, which fits the entire context, desire is a natural thing that can BECOME sin, want proof?

James 1:15 - Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Desire can cause sin but isn't sin.

Therefore God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) condemned slavery and sexually desiring a woman isn't a sin,

Proverbs 5:18-19 Let your fountain be blessed, and rejoice in the wife of your youth, a lovely deer, a graceful doe. Let her breasts fill you at all times with delight; be intoxicated always in her love

Song of Solomon 7:7-8

Your stature is like a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I say I will climb the palm tree and lay hold of its fruit. Oh may your breasts be like clusters of the vine, and the scent of your breath like apples,

Song of Solomon 8:10
I was a wall, and my breasts were like towers; then I was in his eyes as one who finds peace.

The True 10 Commandments are,

1, You shall have no other gods before Yahweh(The True God, The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)
2, You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
3, Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy
4, You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
5, Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.
6, You shall not murder.
7, You shall not commit adultery.
8, You shall not Kidnap
9, You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
10, “You shall not take(steal) your neighbor’s house. You shall not take(steal) your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

and Matthew 5:27-28 is, "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman with the intention of taking her(stealing her from the husband or cheating with her) has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Basically, Jesus Christ is saying, you know to not commit adultery, do not even plan or intend on taking(or cheating) with a woman, because it's as if you already did so.

Which fits well with The Rest of The Sermon of The Mount because remember,

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Jesus Christ never abolished or added any laws, The laws He gave at the exodus were fine.

For example on Oaths

Matthew 5:33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.[g]

Jesus Christ was just telling us how to accomplish the law, so for adultery(cheating, unfaithfulness, can only be committed by a married person and someone else(aka cheating) He said don't even plan to do it(like King David remember)

There ya go.



All proven here ---> http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,49333.msg867619.html#msg867619

But lets use The Very Orthodox Books themselves(Early Church Fathers)  to prove this,
"ἡ δὲ εὐαγγέλιος φωνὴ ἐπιτατικώτερον διδάσκει περὶ ἁγνείας λέγουσα· “Πᾶς ὁ ἰδὼν γυναῖκα ἀλλοτρίαν πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ. καὶ ὁ γαμῶν”- Theophilus to Autolycus, B III, Ch 3

Key word? ἀλλοτρίαν which means, "belongeth to another"

Lust isn't a sin and even The Orthodox Church agrees, so disagree with me and disagree with The Church.
 

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SavedByChrist94 said:
LBK said:
SavedByChrist94 said:
SolEX01 said:
SavedByChrist94 said:
SolEX01 said:
SavedbyChrist94 chooses to use a politically correct translation of the Bible which is only 18 years old (dating back to 1995):

Words and Phrases that could be misunderstood due to changes in their meaning during the past 20 years have been updated to current English
http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-American-Standard-Bible-NASB/
Nope, using one that's used in Biblelexicon.org, as it is most literal, BUT if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments.
The Lockman Foundation is behind the New American Standard Bible.  That's the translation you've been using.  Find out more about them here:

http://www.lockman.org/tlf/tlfhistory.php

SavedByChrist94 said:
Also, all translations are bad, you want The Truth? Go to the Greeks, for example in the translations, Matthew 5:28 would look like it says looking at a woman would be a sin, however in The Originals it says coveting a wife(aka looking to commit adultery) which makes sense as looking at a woman isn't adultery and whoever says it is adds to God's Word.
What are "The Originals?"
Greek Manuscripts. also like I said because you keep bringing up the NASB version, " if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments."
OK, then, here is Matthew 5:28 in the original Greek:

28 ᾿Εγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ βλέπων γυναῖκα πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ.

The bolded word gynaika means both wife and woman in every form of Greek language, from Homer's time to the present day modern language. Still want to argue that fornication is not a sin, SBC94?
Of course it's both wife and woman, however in this verse it means wife, want proof?

᾿Εγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ βλέπων γυναῖκα πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ.

πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι means pros to epithumēsai

pros to comes BEFORE epithumēsai

So that means in order to epithumēsai(proof?

“Beware of practicing your righteousness before men in order to be noticed by them.” (Matt 6:1)

Original Greek - Προσέχετε [a]δὲ τὴν δικαιοσύνην ὑμῶν μὴ ποιεῖν ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ἀνθρώπων πρὸς τὸ θεαθῆναι αὐτοῖς· εἰ δὲ μή γε, μισθὸν οὐκ ἔχετε παρὰ τῷ πατρὶ ὑμῶν τῷ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.

“… First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles in order to burn them up ….” (Matt 13:30)

Original Greek, 30 ἄφετε συναυξάνεσθαι ἀμφότερα [a]μέχρι τοῦ θερισμοῦ· καὶ ἐν καιρῷ τοῦ θερισμοῦ ἐρῶ τοῖς θερισταῖς· Συλλέξατε πρῶτον τὰ ζιζάνια καὶ δήσατε αὐτὰ εἰς δέσμας πρὸς τὸ κατακαῦσαι αὐτά, τὸν δὲ σῖτον συναγάγετε εἰς τὴν ἀποθήκην μου.

“But they do all their deeds in order to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.” (Matt 23:5)

Original Greek - 5 πάντα δὲ τὰ ἔργα αὐτῶν ποιοῦσιν πρὸς τὸ θεαθῆναι τοῖς ἀνθρώποις· πλατύνουσι [a]γὰρ τὰ φυλακτήρια αὐτῶν καὶ μεγαλύνουσι τὰ κράσπεδα,

“For when she poured this perfume on my body, she did it in order to prepare me for burial.” (Matt 26:12)

Original Greek - 12 βαλοῦσα γὰρ αὕτη τὸ μύρον τοῦτο ἐπὶ τοῦ σώματός μου πρὸς τὸ ἐνταφιάσαι με ἐποίησεν.

All from Matthew.)



now lets go through all the definitions of epithumēsai( I long for, covet, lust after, set the heart upon.) and see which can be put in the proper  sentence,


Lust is a desire, not an action even diliberate lust isn't doing something, an action is something you do, whoever looks at a woman in order to, means in order to do something, do what? lust is an emotion, a desire, etc, not an action, so this definition is null and void. if Jesus Christ meant lusting after a woman was a sin, then He would have said, whoever looks at a woman AND lust, etc, but He said whoever looks at a woman IN ORDER TO, so it's to do something, added with epithumesai is a verb, an action.

Since pros to makes this an action,  whether you like it or not, lust long for, and set the heart upon definitions are out.

Now, the last definition would be Covet, lets see,

Matthew 5:27-28 - You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman in order to covet her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Added with the fact that the word for covet and woman/wife are the same in Exodus 20:17(Septuagint)

οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις τὴν γυναῖκα τοῦ πλησίον σου. οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις τὴν οἰκίαν τοῦ πλησίον σου οὔτε τὸν ἀγρὸν αὐτοῦ οὔτε τὸν παῖδα αὐτοῦ οὔτε τὴν παιδίσκην αὐτοῦ οὔτε τοῦ βοὸς αὐτοῦ οὔτε τοῦ ὑποζυγίου αὐτοῦ οὔτε παντὸς κτήνους αὐτοῦ οὔτε ὅσα τῷ πλησίον σού ἐστιν. (Ex 20:17 LXX)

Added with looks at a woman in order to.

The intent of the look for for a purpose, the purpose of what? in order to do what? and that in order to do is epithumesai(verb) her

So it should be rendered,

You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman(as same word for woman/wife is used in Septuagint version of 10th Commandment) with the intention(due to looking at a woman in order to epithumesai(verb) her) of taking her(stealing her from the husband or cheating with her due to 10th Commandment) has already committed adultery(Sex between married person and someone outside of relationship, aka cheating) with her in his heart.


So Jesus Christ is just retelling the law(Thou Shall Not Commit Adultery and 10th Commandment), He never added to The Law, The Law He originally gave at The Exodus was Fine.

Now with this fact, that covet is an action and not a desire and as proven by http://Goddidntsaythat.com/2011/03/02/the-ten-commandments-dont-forbid-coveting/

Covet in The 10 Commandments means take.

why? read the link and the fact that The 8th Commandment "Thou Shall Not Steal" uses the word ganab which can mean Kidnap

God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) gave commandments, prohibitions, on actions, which fits the entire context, desire is a natural thing that can BECOME sin, want proof?

James 1:15 - Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Desire can cause sin but isn't sin.

Therefore God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) condemned slavery and sexually desiring a woman isn't a sin,

Proverbs 5:18-19 Let your fountain be blessed, and rejoice in the wife of your youth, a lovely deer, a graceful doe. Let her breasts fill you at all times with delight; be intoxicated always in her love

Song of Solomon 7:7-8

Your stature is like a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I say I will climb the palm tree and lay hold of its fruit. Oh may your breasts be like clusters of the vine, and the scent of your breath like apples,

Song of Solomon 8:10
I was a wall, and my breasts were like towers; then I was in his eyes as one who finds peace.

The True 10 Commandments are,

1, You shall have no other gods before Yahweh(The True God, The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)
2, You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
3, Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy
4, You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
5, Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.
6, You shall not murder.
7, You shall not commit adultery.
8, You shall not Kidnap
9, You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
10, “You shall not take(steal) your neighbor’s house. You shall not take(steal) your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

and Matthew 5:27-28 is, "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman with the intention of taking her(stealing her from the husband or cheating with her) has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Basically, Jesus Christ is saying, you know to not commit adultery, do not even plan or intend on taking(or cheating) with a woman, because it's as if you already did so.

Which fits well with The Rest of The Sermon of The Mount because remember,

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Jesus Christ never abolished or added any laws, The laws He gave at the exodus were fine.

For example on Oaths

Matthew 5:33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.[g]

Jesus Christ was just telling us how to accomplish the law, so for adultery(cheating, unfaithfulness, can only be committed by a married person and someone else(aka cheating) He said don't even plan to do it(like King David remember)

There ya go.



All proven here ---> http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,49333.msg867619.html#msg867619

But lets use The Very Orthodox Books themselves(Early Church Fathers)  to prove this,
"ἡ δὲ εὐαγγέλιος φωνὴ ἐπιτατικώτερον διδάσκει περὶ ἁγνείας λέγουσα· “Πᾶς ὁ ἰδὼν γυναῖκα ἀλλοτρίαν πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ. καὶ ὁ γαμῶν”- Theophilus to Autolycus, B III, Ch 3

Key word? ἀλλοτρίαν which means, "belongeth to another"

Lust isn't a sin and even The Orthodox Church agrees, so disagree with me and disagree with The Church.
Oh my God, you are absolutely right. I have been so wrong and bigoted all my life and it took your mistranslations, self-centeredness, and incurable OCD for me to realize the errors of my ways!
 

biro

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[quote author=SavedByChrist94]
Lust isn't a sin and even The Orthodox Church agrees, so disagree with me and disagree with The Church.
[/quote]

???

What the... ?

 

SolEX01

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SavedByChrist94 said:
But lets use The Very Orthodox Books themselves(Early Church Fathers)  to prove this,
"ἡ δὲ εὐαγγέλιος φωνὴ ἐπιτατικώτερον διδάσκει περὶ ἁγνείας λέγουσα· “Πᾶς ὁ ἰδὼν γυναῖκα ἀλλοτρίαν πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ. καὶ ὁ γαμῶν”- Theophilus to Autolycus, B III, Ch 3

Key word? ἀλλοτρίαν which means, "belongeth to another"

Lust isn't a sin and even The Orthodox Church agrees, so disagree with me and disagree with The Church.
1.  What is the source for what you cited in Greek?

2.  ἀλλοτρίαν can also mean strange.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aalphabetic+letter%3D*a%3Aentry+group%3D91%3Aentry%3Da%29llo%2Ftrios

3.  FAIL.  :police:
 

Arachne

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Key word? ἀλλοτρίαν which means, "belongeth to another"
You do realise that any woman not married to you belongs to another, don't you?
 

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SavedByChrist94 said:
Lust isn't a sin and even The Orthodox Church agrees, so disagree with me and disagree with The Church.
Who agrees with you agrees with the Evil One.
 

LBK

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biro said:
[quote author=SavedByChrist94]
Lust isn't a sin and even The Orthodox Church agrees, so disagree with me and disagree with The Church.
???

What the... ?


[/quote]

You and me both. My brain just exploded ....
 

LBK

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Arachne said:
Key word? ἀλλοτρίαν which means, "belongeth to another"
You do realise that any woman not married to you belongs to another, don't you?
Ssssh! Don't confuse him with facts!  ;)
 

andrewlya

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Jason.Wike said:
(just having the concept of hyperbole would go a long way, there's people that reject Christianity because they really think Jesus asks them to despise their family).
Huuh?I don't understand this statement...
How can this be possible when Jesus is all about love and being respectful..Jesus wants harmony within the family..
 

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biro said:
[quote author=SavedByChrist94]
Lust isn't a sin and even The Orthodox Church agrees, so disagree with me and disagree with The Church.
???

What the... ?
[/quote]

Heh, I was just about to quote that and put the same response....
I've heard sermons on the topic, MANY times.... In fact, I think I've seen books written on the topic. (Small monastic books).
 

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Jason.Wike said:
...It starting to seem to me like most people reject the Bible or Christianity for really bad reasons, mostly just 'feelings,' not liking its morality or simply not understanding it. The second especially in regards to sex (probably the #1 reason) - but of course "I don't like it" or "I want to do whatever I want to do" is really a foolish criteria for determining truth. The third mainly has to do with that the Bible requires a lot more literary and rhetorical knowledge to appreciate then most people have (just having the concept of hyperbole would go a long way, there's people that reject Christianity because they really think Jesus asks them to despise their family).

Does anyone know of any books dealing with any of this? Christianity is loosing people not because people are making hard decisions and sifting the wheat from the chaff.. its really just because people 1) Are thinking with their emotions 2) Can read the bible but don't really know what it means sometimes.

Poor Jason's thread!  Are you getting some other ideas as to why some people reject Christianity. 

You've nearly got a book on the topic in this thread alone!  lol

Lord have mercy. 
 

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SavedByChrist94 said:
Matthew 5:27-28 - You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman in order to covet her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Added with the fact that the word for covet and woman/wife are the same in Exodus 20:17(Septuagint)

οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις τὴν γυναῖκα τοῦ πλησίον σου. οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις τὴν οἰκίαν τοῦ πλησίον σου οὔτε τὸν ἀγρὸν αὐτοῦ οὔτε τὸν παῖδα αὐτοῦ οὔτε τὴν παιδίσκην αὐτοῦ οὔτε τοῦ βοὸς αὐτοῦ οὔτε τοῦ ὑποζυγίου αὐτοῦ οὔτε παντὸς κτήνους αὐτοῦ οὔτε ὅσα τῷ πλησίον σού ἐστιν. (Ex 20:17 LXX)

why?

read the 8th Commandment "Thou Shall Not Steal"

God(Father, Son, Holy Spirit) gave commandments, prohibitions, on actions. Desire is a natural thing that can BECOME sin, want proof?

James 1:15 - Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Desire can cause sin but isn't sin.

Therefore God(Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) condemned slavery and sexually desiring a woman isn't a sin.



Matthew 5:27-28 is, "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman with the intention of taking her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."



Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.





Matthew 5:33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.[g]




But lets use The Very Orthodox Books themselves(Early Church Fathers)  to prove this,

"ἡ δὲ εὐαγγέλιος φωνὴ ἐπιτατικώτερον διδάσκει περὶ ἁγνείας λέγουσα· “Πᾶς ὁ ἰδὼν γυναῖκα ἀλλοτρίαν πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ. καὶ ὁ γαμῶν”- Theophilus to Autolycus, B III, Ch 3

Key word? ἀλλοτρίαν which means, "belongeth to another"


Arachne said:
Key word? ἀλλοτρίαν which means, "belongeth to another"
You do realise that any woman not married to you belongs to another, don't you?


Okay, sigh, there, I fixed it so I could read it.  Thanks Arachne, that helped a lot! 

I totally get it now.  Desire or thinking a thought isn't a sin in and of itself, it's just when we continue to entertain that thought then action becomes more likely, then if we act on the bad thought, we have fallen into sin.  I think of it as an affliction to not be able to easily turn my mind to other things.  Some things are just upsetting, but I'm practicing at just putting things aside.

Saved By Christ, you don't happen to live next to me do you?  Are you a skinny guy with brown hair and blue eyes who feeds the crows every morning?
 

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Jason.Wike said:
(ok, so this is going to be kinda vague since I'm trying to keep it short)

It starting to seem to me like most people reject the Bible or Christianity for really bad reasons, mostly just 'feelings,' not liking its morality or simply not understanding it. The second especially in regards to sex (probably the #1 reason) - but of course "I don't like it" or "I want to do whatever I want to do" is really a foolish criteria for determining truth. The third mainly has to do with that the Bible requires a lot more literary and rhetorical knowledge to appreciate then most people have (just having the concept of hyperbole would go a long way, there's people that reject Christianity because they really think Jesus asks them to despise their family).

Does anyone know of any books dealing with any of this? Christianity is loosing people not because people are making hard decisions and sifting the wheat from the chaff.. its really just because people 1) Are thinking with their emotions 2) Can read the bible but don't really know what it means sometimes.
Sad, isn't it.  #s 1&2 pretty much sums it up. 
 

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SavedByChrist94 said:
LBK said:
SavedByChrist94 said:
SolEX01 said:
SavedByChrist94 said:
SolEX01 said:
SavedbyChrist94 chooses to use a politically correct translation of the Bible which is only 18 years old (dating back to 1995):

Words and Phrases that could be misunderstood due to changes in their meaning during the past 20 years have been updated to current English
http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-American-Standard-Bible-NASB/
Nope, using one that's used in Biblelexicon.org, as it is most literal, BUT if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments.
The Lockman Foundation is behind the New American Standard Bible.  That's the translation you've been using.  Find out more about them here:

http://www.lockman.org/tlf/tlfhistory.php

SavedByChrist94 said:
Also, all translations are bad, you want The Truth? Go to the Greeks, for example in the translations, Matthew 5:28 would look like it says looking at a woman would be a sin, however in The Originals it says coveting a wife(aka looking to commit adultery) which makes sense as looking at a woman isn't adultery and whoever says it is adds to God's Word.
What are "The Originals?"
Greek Manuscripts. also like I said because you keep bringing up the NASB version, " if you want tell me what translation you'd like me to use and I'll still destroy the pharisee arguments."
OK, then, here is Matthew 5:28 in the original Greek:

28 ᾿Εγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ βλέπων γυναῖκα πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ.

The bolded word gynaika means both wife and woman in every form of Greek language, from Homer's time to the present day modern language. Still want to argue that fornication is not a sin, SBC94?
Of course it's both wife and woman, however in this verse it means wife, want proof?

᾿Εγὼ δὲ λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ βλέπων γυναῖκα πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ.

πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι means pros to epithumēsai

pros to comes BEFORE epithumēsai

So that means in order to epithumēsai(proof?

“Beware of practicing your righteousness before men in order to be noticed by them.” (Matt 6:1)

Original Greek - Προσέχετε [a]δὲ τὴν δικαιοσύνην ὑμῶν μὴ ποιεῖν ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ἀνθρώπων πρὸς τὸ θεαθῆναι αὐτοῖς· εἰ δὲ μή γε, μισθὸν οὐκ ἔχετε παρὰ τῷ πατρὶ ὑμῶν τῷ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.

“… First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles in order to burn them up ….” (Matt 13:30)

Original Greek, 30 ἄφετε συναυξάνεσθαι ἀμφότερα [a]μέχρι τοῦ θερισμοῦ· καὶ ἐν καιρῷ τοῦ θερισμοῦ ἐρῶ τοῖς θερισταῖς· Συλλέξατε πρῶτον τὰ ζιζάνια καὶ δήσατε αὐτὰ εἰς δέσμας πρὸς τὸ κατακαῦσαι αὐτά, τὸν δὲ σῖτον συναγάγετε εἰς τὴν ἀποθήκην μου.

“But they do all their deeds in order to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.” (Matt 23:5)

Original Greek - 5 πάντα δὲ τὰ ἔργα αὐτῶν ποιοῦσιν πρὸς τὸ θεαθῆναι τοῖς ἀνθρώποις· πλατύνουσι [a]γὰρ τὰ φυλακτήρια αὐτῶν καὶ μεγαλύνουσι τὰ κράσπεδα,

“For when she poured this perfume on my body, she did it in order to prepare me for burial.” (Matt 26:12)

Original Greek - 12 βαλοῦσα γὰρ αὕτη τὸ μύρον τοῦτο ἐπὶ τοῦ σώματός μου πρὸς τὸ ἐνταφιάσαι με ἐποίησεν.

All from Matthew.)



now lets go through all the definitions of epithumēsai( I long for, covet, lust after, set the heart upon.) and see which can be put in the proper  sentence,


Lust is a desire, not an action even diliberate lust isn't doing something, an action is something you do, whoever looks at a woman in order to, means in order to do something, do what? lust is an emotion, a desire, etc, not an action, so this definition is null and void. if Jesus Christ meant lusting after a woman was a sin, then He would have said, whoever looks at a woman AND lust, etc, but He said whoever looks at a woman IN ORDER TO, so it's to do something, added with epithumesai is a verb, an action.

Since pros to makes this an action,  whether you like it or not, lust long for, and set the heart upon definitions are out.

Now, the last definition would be Covet, lets see,

Matthew 5:27-28 - You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman in order to covet her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Added with the fact that the word for covet and woman/wife are the same in Exodus 20:17(Septuagint)

οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις τὴν γυναῖκα τοῦ πλησίον σου. οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις τὴν οἰκίαν τοῦ πλησίον σου οὔτε τὸν ἀγρὸν αὐτοῦ οὔτε τὸν παῖδα αὐτοῦ οὔτε τὴν παιδίσκην αὐτοῦ οὔτε τοῦ βοὸς αὐτοῦ οὔτε τοῦ ὑποζυγίου αὐτοῦ οὔτε παντὸς κτήνους αὐτοῦ οὔτε ὅσα τῷ πλησίον σού ἐστιν. (Ex 20:17 LXX)

Added with looks at a woman in order to.

The intent of the look for for a purpose, the purpose of what? in order to do what? and that in order to do is epithumesai(verb) her

So it should be rendered,

You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman(as same word for woman/wife is used in Septuagint version of 10th Commandment) with the intention(due to looking at a woman in order to epithumesai(verb) her) of taking her(stealing her from the husband or cheating with her due to 10th Commandment) has already committed adultery(Sex between married person and someone outside of relationship, aka cheating) with her in his heart.


So Jesus Christ is just retelling the law(Thou Shall Not Commit Adultery and 10th Commandment), He never added to The Law, The Law He originally gave at The Exodus was Fine.

Now with this fact, that covet is an action and not a desire and as proven by http://Goddidntsaythat.com/2011/03/02/the-ten-commandments-dont-forbid-coveting/

Covet in The 10 Commandments means take.

why? read the link and the fact that The 8th Commandment "Thou Shall Not Steal" uses the word ganab which can mean Kidnap

God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) gave commandments, prohibitions, on actions, which fits the entire context, desire is a natural thing that can BECOME sin, want proof?

James 1:15 - Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Desire can cause sin but isn't sin.

Therefore God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) condemned slavery and sexually desiring a woman isn't a sin,

Proverbs 5:18-19 Let your fountain be blessed, and rejoice in the wife of your youth, a lovely deer, a graceful doe. Let her breasts fill you at all times with delight; be intoxicated always in her love

Song of Solomon 7:7-8

Your stature is like a palm tree, and your breasts are like its clusters. I say I will climb the palm tree and lay hold of its fruit. Oh may your breasts be like clusters of the vine, and the scent of your breath like apples,

Song of Solomon 8:10
I was a wall, and my breasts were like towers; then I was in his eyes as one who finds peace.

The True 10 Commandments are,

1, You shall have no other gods before Yahweh(The True God, The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)
2, You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
3, Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy
4, You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
5, Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.
6, You shall not murder.
7, You shall not commit adultery.
8, You shall not Kidnap
9, You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
10, “You shall not take(steal) your neighbor’s house. You shall not take(steal) your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

and Matthew 5:27-28 is, "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a married woman with the intention of taking her(stealing her from the husband or cheating with her) has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Basically, Jesus Christ is saying, you know to not commit adultery, do not even plan or intend on taking(or cheating) with a woman, because it's as if you already did so.

Which fits well with The Rest of The Sermon of The Mount because remember,

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Jesus Christ never abolished or added any laws, The laws He gave at the exodus were fine.

For example on Oaths

Matthew 5:33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.[g]

Jesus Christ was just telling us how to accomplish the law, so for adultery(cheating, unfaithfulness, can only be committed by a married person and someone else(aka cheating) He said don't even plan to do it(like King David remember)

There ya go.



All proven here ---> http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,49333.msg867619.html#msg867619

But lets use The Very Orthodox Books themselves(Early Church Fathers)  to prove this,
"ἡ δὲ εὐαγγέλιος φωνὴ ἐπιτατικώτερον διδάσκει περὶ ἁγνείας λέγουσα· “Πᾶς ὁ ἰδὼν γυναῖκα ἀλλοτρίαν πρὸς τὸ ἐπιθυμῆσαι αὐτὴν ἤδη ἐμοίχευσεν αὐτὴν ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτοῦ. καὶ ὁ γαμῶν”- Theophilus to Autolycus, B III, Ch 3

Key word? ἀλλοτρίαν which means, "belongeth to another"

Lust isn't a sin and even The Orthodox Church agrees, so disagree with me and disagree with The Church.
I get it.  You have your eye on a particular avatar, and think that if you can convince her that "lust is not a sin" that a date for next saturday night opens up.  Stay away from my parishioners, and from my deanery.  Actually, just stay away from everyone before you do 5000 prostrations.  BTW, stop hijacking Jason's thread. 
 
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