Religious Systems

FlickFlack

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I've always been amazed by christians who firmly said that they follow God independently, are born-again, Spirit-filled,Saved without any religious system.I have a few acquaintances who are like this and from outside they seem happy.My question is , are those category of people happy,joyful, satisfied, positive?Are those who worship God through religious systems happy,joyful,satisfied, positive?And most importantly who is more happier.I would like people from this two categories to say how and why.Thanks.
 

Arachne

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There are (a lot of) people for whom system and spirituality are mutually exclusive, and any attempt at organisation invalidates spiritual claims. No, I don't get it either. While it is certainly possible to lose track of the spirit in the attempt to follow the letter, that is far from the rule, at least with the people I know. Just winging it feels like having to reinvent the wheel every single time, and so having no time to advance beyond that.
 

FlickFlack

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But who is more happier?

What kind of spirituality does one need to leed to be happy?

What do you think of those who say they have a personal relationship with Jesus and don't believe in rituals?

Those seem more happy than us :).

I must say that kind of philosophy attracts me a lot.

Born-Again, Spirit Filled, Saved, a Personal relationship with Christ.

Is anyone here under this sign?I would like to get to know something from someone like that.
 

Ansgar

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I don't understand why somebody thinks that you can't have a personal relationship with God and still be orthodox. We have thousands of people who have had a personal relationship with God. We don't need to turn all charismatic to do that.
 

LBK

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What do you think of those who say they have a personal relationship with Jesus and don't believe in rituals?

Those seem more happy than us Smiley.

I must say that kind of philosophy attracts me a lot.

Born-Again, Spirit Filled, Saved, a Personal relationship with Christ.

Is anyone here under this sign?I would like to get to know something from someone like that.
The turnover rate from modern "happy-clappy" churches is quite high. In my neck of the woods, they change their stripes, names and logos about every couple of years or so, either as a marketing exercise, or because of fragmentation of the original group. There is no stability in them. The "feel-good" factor is temporary and fleeting, like the satisfaction we get from eating junk food. Fun when it's happening, regret and emptiness when the hormones rebalance.
 

FlickFlack

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Ansgar said:
I don't understand why somebody thinks that you can't have a personal relationship with God and still be orthodox. We have thousands of people who have had a personal relationship with God. We don't need to turn all charismatic to do that.
I didn't say that.I just copied a line from someone who said the exact same words about himself from another non-orthodox forum.

I like vivid and charismatic experiences of christianity.

Anyway this thread is about those who worship God/Christ independently and those who do it through religious systems.My rephrased question is what are the advantages and disadvantages to both of them?
 

Justin Kolodziej

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The devil can fake "vivid and charismatic experiences"...he cannot fake true repentance and love for God and all creatures. Seeking such experiences is the fastest way to delusion.

Is it fair to say (since I am not Orthodox) the "charismatic" movement has not made its way into Orthodoxy as in every Western form of Christianity including Roman Catholicism?
 

LBK

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FlickFlack said:
Ansgar said:
I don't understand why somebody thinks that you can't have a personal relationship with God and still be orthodox. We have thousands of people who have had a personal relationship with God. We don't need to turn all charismatic to do that.
I didn't say that.I just copied a line from someone who said the exact same words about himself from another non-orthodox forum.

I like vivid and charismatic experiences of christianity.

Anyway this thread is about those who worship God/Christ independently and those who do it through religious systems.My rephrased question is what are the advantages and disadvantages to both of them?
Your profile says you're Orthodox by baptism. Wouldn't it make more sense to seek and learn what your Church teaches and believes, and has done so since the Apostles walked the earth, rather than to chase after the shadows which are today's myriad of "charismatic" groups (each with its own version of the "Truth"), which are here today and gone tomorrow?
 

FlickFlack

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LBK said:
FlickFlack said:
Ansgar said:
I don't understand why somebody thinks that you can't have a personal relationship with God and still be orthodox. We have thousands of people who have had a personal relationship with God. We don't need to turn all charismatic to do that.
I didn't say that.I just copied a line from someone who said the exact same words about himself from another non-orthodox forum.

I like vivid and charismatic experiences of christianity.

Anyway this thread is about those who worship God/Christ independently and those who do it through religious systems.My rephrased question is what are the advantages and disadvantages to both of them?
Your profile says you're Orthodox by baptism. Wouldn't it make more sense to seek and learn what your Church teaches and believes, and has done so since the Apostles walked the earth, rather than to chase after the shadows which are today's myriad of "charismatic" groups (each with its own version of the "Truth"), which are here today and gone tomorrow?
What makes you think I haven't?

I did not meant the denomination.I like full of life things.I think a Christian with a full of life expression is very appreciative.Don't you?I see you are trying to cause distraction on all my threads with a switch and bait thing?Why?That makes me think if I want to continue taking your posts in considerance.
 

Ansgar

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FlickFlack said:
Ansgar said:
I don't understand why somebody thinks that you can't have a personal relationship with God and still be orthodox. We have thousands of people who have had a personal relationship with God. We don't need to turn all charismatic to do that.
I didn't say that.I just copied a line from someone who said the exact same words about himself from another non-orthodox forum.

I like vivid and charismatic experiences of christianity.

Anyway this thread is about those who worship God/Christ independently and those who do it through religious systems.My rephrased question is what are the advantages and disadvantages to both of them?
Forgive me, I didn't mean to offend you. Your post just sounded that way.
 

FlickFlack

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Justin Kolodziej said:
The devil can fake "vivid and charismatic experiences"...he cannot fake true repentance and love for God and all creatures. Seeking such experiences is the fastest way to delusion.

Is it fair to say (since I am not Orthodox) the "charismatic" movement has not made its way into Orthodoxy as in every Western form of Christianity including Roman Catholicism?
I seek and appreciate full things.. full vivid things.. and I get some of those vibes from liberal Christians.. though, I am more interested in the ups and downs of this two types of worship.

I didn't mean the charismatic denomination, but liberal Christians.



 

FlickFlack

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Ansgar said:
FlickFlack said:
Ansgar said:
I don't understand why somebody thinks that you can't have a personal relationship with God and still be orthodox. We have thousands of people who have had a personal relationship with God. We don't need to turn all charismatic to do that.
I didn't say that.I just copied a line from someone who said the exact same words about himself from another non-orthodox forum.

I like vivid and charismatic experiences of christianity.

Anyway this thread is about those who worship God/Christ independently and those who do it through religious systems.My rephrased question is what are the advantages and disadvantages to both of them?
Forgive me, I didn't mean to offend you. Your post just sounded that way.
Stay calm no offence taken.I am hardly offended, esspecially by sincere people.You can even give me the meanest insults and i'll appreciate you for your sincerity[speaking in general terms].
 

FlickFlack

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Arachne said:
There are (a lot of) people for whom system and spirituality are mutually exclusive, and any attempt at organisation invalidates spiritual claims. No, I don't get it either. While it is certainly possible to lose track of the spirit in the attempt to follow the letter, that is far from the rule, at least with the people I know. Just winging it feels like having to reinvent the wheel every single time, and so having no time to advance beyond that.
Yes the Legalism of the Church seems to cause more death and craftiness, having always to submit to ritualism and dogma..  What I appreciate at those type of liberal Christians is their conviction, their liberty and their vivid experiences..

What is the positiveness of legalism, dogma and ritualism?

How does one get to live a more satisfying and vivid life?
 

Ansgar

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What is the positiveness of legalism, dogma and ritualism?
Well, among other things, it prevents you from splitting into 40.000 different denomination.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with rituals, as long they are not empty.
 

theistgal

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As those who've followed my posting history here and elsewhere may know, I have gone back and forth from atheism to theism at least 3 times in my life (so far!).

Each time, I was repelled from theism by an overemphasis on theological rituals and minutia (totally my own fault btw, I don't blame anyone but me for my sins!); and when I eventually come back I'm drawn in not by any particular "system" but by some holy person I encounter who's living the Gospel and obviously loving God. Last time it was the late great "Internet Monk" Michael Spencer, who I'm sure many of you remember.

So I'll start out fresh with Jesus Christ at the center and then the religious "system" that helps me keep Him there. Which for me seems more and more to be some form of Eastern Christianity. Though I can see how others may find another "system" that works better for them, so I try not to judge too much. Especially since I know when I start judging too much, that's usually when my next bout of atheism starts brewing!
 

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FlickFlack said:
LBK said:
FlickFlack said:
Ansgar said:
I don't understand why somebody thinks that you can't have a personal relationship with God and still be orthodox. We have thousands of people who have had a personal relationship with God. We don't need to turn all charismatic to do that.
I didn't say that.I just copied a line from someone who said the exact same words about himself from another non-orthodox forum.

I like vivid and charismatic experiences of christianity.

Anyway this thread is about those who worship God/Christ independently and those who do it through religious systems.My rephrased question is what are the advantages and disadvantages to both of them?
Your profile says you're Orthodox by baptism. Wouldn't it make more sense to seek and learn what your Church teaches and believes, and has done so since the Apostles walked the earth, rather than to chase after the shadows which are today's myriad of "charismatic" groups (each with its own version of the "Truth"), which are here today and gone tomorrow?
What makes you think I haven't?

I did not meant the denomination.I like full of life things.I think a Christian with a full of life expression is very appreciative.Don't you?I see you are trying to cause distraction on all my threads with a switch and bait thing?Why?That makes me think if I want to continue taking your posts in considerance.
If this is what you meant, and I've no reason to think otherwise, then I'd say that the most 'vivid and charismatic' experiences of Christianity I've had have come within Orthodoxy. Indeed had it not been for the sincere, loving, joyful and generous example of an Orthodox monk (and you couldn't get more part of a 'religious system' as you put it than in monasticism I'd say) in Romania, I can honestly say that I'd be highly unlikely to be Orthodox today. Since converting I can say that I have seen far more examples of genuine Christian faith in Orthodoxy. Not everyone, of course, but enough to be absolutely convinced of the Truth of Orthodoxy. I can't say I ever had the same experience of genuineness  with the more 'happy clappy' Christians at university - their happiness always seemed decidedly fake. To be honest it was often rather reminiscent of self-medicated euphoria.

James
 

Arachne

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FlickFlack said:
But who is more happier?
This is strictly personal... but I have issues with the concept of happiness. It implies happenstance, luck, fortunate conditions. Everyone can be happy when things are going their way. What happens when life turns around and gives you a big old bitchslap into next week? The happy-clappy highs are high, but the lows are respectively really, really low.

I prefer contentment, myself - being able to function, rather than getting the moody blues, despite what life throws at me, not because of it.

As for 'liberal Christians'... You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
 

tweety234

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Arachne said:
FlickFlack said:
But who is more happier?
This is strictly personal... but I have issues with the concept of happiness. It implies happenstance, luck, fortunate conditions. Everyone can be happy when things are going their way. What happens when life turns around and gives you a big old bitchslap into next week? The happy-clappy highs are high, but the lows are respectively really, really low.

I prefer contentment, myself - being able to function, rather than getting the moody blues, despite what life throws at me, not because of it.

As for 'liberal Christians'... You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
well, if you have issues with happiness. Tell us according to your observations, who has more joy?
 
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