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Roman Catholic view of Orthodox Church

mike

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ialmisry said:
Marc1152 said:
deusveritasest said:
synLeszka said:
In Orthodox sacramentology, does the taking of monastic tonsure by a married person negate the existence of the tonsured's marriage?
I have noticed in Tsarist statutes that one of the reasons for the dissolution of marriage is the acceptance of monastic tonsure. Does this belief still exist today?
Seeing as how the monastic life and married life are viewed as two distinct and separate realities, I would imagine that accepting one from being in the other would dissolve the previously established one.
I know someone who very recently left his family to become a Monk. Apparently the Bishop has allowed it.
Then he should be deposed.
I know about one Priest who did that to become a Bishop.
 

ialmisry

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Michał Kalina said:
ialmisry said:
Marc1152 said:
deusveritasest said:
synLeszka said:
In Orthodox sacramentology, does the taking of monastic tonsure by a married person negate the existence of the tonsured's marriage?
I have noticed in Tsarist statutes that one of the reasons for the dissolution of marriage is the acceptance of monastic tonsure. Does this belief still exist today?
Seeing as how the monastic life and married life are viewed as two distinct and separate realities, I would imagine that accepting one from being in the other would dissolve the previously established one.
I know someone who very recently left his family to become a Monk. Apparently the Bishop has allowed it.
Then he should be deposed.
I know about one Priest who did that to become a Bishop.
Ditto.
 

FatherGiryus

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Leaving one's family to become a monastic is not unheard of.  I met a monk who retired from his job and, with his wife's blessing, left her his pension and home to live the monastic life.  As long as the family is cared for and the spouse agrees, it is not a problem.

It should not be used as a means of escaping debts or responsibilities.
 

podkarpatska

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FatherGiryus said:
Leaving one's family to become a monastic is not unheard of.  I met a monk who retired from his job and, with his wife's blessing, left her his pension and home to live the monastic life.  As long as the family is cared for and the spouse agrees, it is not a problem.

It should not be used as a means of escaping debts or responsibilities.
In today's world, it would be wrong, from my point of view, for one to leave one's family for the monastic life if one's children were still in their minority. I really could have no respect for a man who would do so to become a Bishop.
 

prodromos

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ialmisry said:
Marc1152 said:
deusveritasest said:
synLeszka said:
In Orthodox sacramentology, does the taking of monastic tonsure by a married person negate the existence of the tonsured's marriage?
I have noticed in Tsarist statutes that one of the reasons for the dissolution of marriage is the acceptance of monastic tonsure. Does this belief still exist today?
Seeing as how the monastic life and married life are viewed as two distinct and separate realities, I would imagine that accepting one from being in the other would dissolve the previously established one.
I know someone who very recently left his family to become a Monk. Apparently the Bishop has allowed it.
Then he should be deposed.
Why?
 

ialmisry

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prodromos said:
ialmisry said:
Marc1152 said:
deusveritasest said:
synLeszka said:
In Orthodox sacramentology, does the taking of monastic tonsure by a married person negate the existence of the tonsured's marriage?
I have noticed in Tsarist statutes that one of the reasons for the dissolution of marriage is the acceptance of monastic tonsure. Does this belief still exist today?
Seeing as how the monastic life and married life are viewed as two distinct and separate realities, I would imagine that accepting one from being in the other would dissolve the previously established one.
I know someone who very recently left his family to become a Monk. Apparently the Bishop has allowed it.
Then he should be deposed.
Why?
"What God has joined together let no man put asunder."
 

prodromos

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ialmisry said:
prodromos said:
ialmisry said:
Marc1152 said:
deusveritasest said:
synLeszka said:
In Orthodox sacramentology, does the taking of monastic tonsure by a married person negate the existence of the tonsured's marriage?
I have noticed in Tsarist statutes that one of the reasons for the dissolution of marriage is the acceptance of monastic tonsure. Does this belief still exist today?
Seeing as how the monastic life and married life are viewed as two distinct and separate realities, I would imagine that accepting one from being in the other would dissolve the previously established one.
I know someone who very recently left his family to become a Monk. Apparently the Bishop has allowed it.
Then he should be deposed.
Why?
"What God has joined together let no man put asunder."
It's not a man though, it is the Church.
 

Azurestone

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prodromos said:
ialmisry said:
prodromos said:
ialmisry said:
Marc1152 said:
deusveritasest said:
synLeszka said:
In Orthodox sacramentology, does the taking of monastic tonsure by a married person negate the existence of the tonsured's marriage?
I have noticed in Tsarist statutes that one of the reasons for the dissolution of marriage is the acceptance of monastic tonsure. Does this belief still exist today?
Seeing as how the monastic life and married life are viewed as two distinct and separate realities, I would imagine that accepting one from being in the other would dissolve the previously established one.
I know someone who very recently left his family to become a Monk. Apparently the Bishop has allowed it.
Then he should be deposed.
Why?
"What God has joined together let no man put asunder."
It's not a man though, it is the Church.
It's not the Church in the sense of a council. It's a managerial decision by a man. A decision that can, and will be criticized.
 

ialmisry

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prodromos said:
ialmisry said:
prodromos said:
ialmisry said:
Marc1152 said:
deusveritasest said:
synLeszka said:
In Orthodox sacramentology, does the taking of monastic tonsure by a married person negate the existence of the tonsured's marriage?
I have noticed in Tsarist statutes that one of the reasons for the dissolution of marriage is the acceptance of monastic tonsure. Does this belief still exist today?
Seeing as how the monastic life and married life are viewed as two distinct and separate realities, I would imagine that accepting one from being in the other would dissolve the previously established one.
I know someone who very recently left his family to become a Monk. Apparently the Bishop has allowed it.
Then he should be deposed.
Why?
"What God has joined together let no man put asunder."
It's not a man though, it is the Church.
Not the Church of St. Paul. 
"To the married I give charge, not I but the Lord, that the wife should not separate from her husband.  (but if she does, let her remain single or else be reconciled to her husband) --and that the husband should not divorce his wife....Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free."
 

FatherGiryus

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He is talking about having to divorce your wife to be a Christian.  Of course, we would say that such an idea, even if the spouse is not a believer, is unnecessary and evil.

However, the context is when a couple decides within the marriage to separate so that one or more may pursue the monastic life.  Here, I don't think it is a problem so long as both agree it is for the best.  After all, we do not force a couple to stay together if they really do not want to.  We do grant divorces.  In the cases I am aware of, a divorce is not granted, but one or both simply move into the monastic community.  What I am unclear on is whether the Church would grant the Great Schema (i.e. final vows) to a monk with a living spouse.

So long as the Church allows for voluntary separation without canonical punishment (you'd be surprised at the number of clergy who live even in different states from their wives), it seems the monastic issue should fit right in.

As for the remark about minor children, I thought I made that clear when discussing the need not to avoid resposibilities when entering into monastic life.


ialmisry said:
Not the Church of St. Paul. 
"To the married I give charge, not I but the Lord, that the wife should not separate from her husband.  (but if she does, let her remain single or else be reconciled to her husband) --and that the husband should not divorce his wife....Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free."
 

Marc1152

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ialmisry said:
Marc1152 said:
deusveritasest said:
synLeszka said:
In Orthodox sacramentology, does the taking of monastic tonsure by a married person negate the existence of the tonsured's marriage?
I have noticed in Tsarist statutes that one of the reasons for the dissolution of marriage is the acceptance of monastic tonsure. Does this belief still exist today?
Seeing as how the monastic life and married life are viewed as two distinct and separate realities, I would imagine that accepting one from being in the other would dissolve the previously established one.
I know someone who very recently left his family to become a Monk. Apparently the Bishop has allowed it.
Then he should be deposed.
Maybe you didn't understand. They are dissolving the marriage as I understand it.. 
 

Marc1152

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ialmisry said:
prodromos said:
ialmisry said:
Marc1152 said:
deusveritasest said:
synLeszka said:
In Orthodox sacramentology, does the taking of monastic tonsure by a married person negate the existence of the tonsured's marriage?
I have noticed in Tsarist statutes that one of the reasons for the dissolution of marriage is the acceptance of monastic tonsure. Does this belief still exist today?
Seeing as how the monastic life and married life are viewed as two distinct and separate realities, I would imagine that accepting one from being in the other would dissolve the previously established one.
I know someone who very recently left his family to become a Monk. Apparently the Bishop has allowed it.
Then he should be deposed.
Why?
"What God has joined together let no man put asunder."
BTW.. I tend to agree with you but I think there are some details we cant Judge from afar.
 

podkarpatska

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FatherGiryus said:
He is talking about having to divorce your wife to be a Christian.  Of course, we would say that such an idea, even if the spouse is not a believer, is unnecessary and evil.

However, the context is when a couple decides within the marriage to separate so that one or more may pursue the monastic life.  Here, I don't think it is a problem so long as both agree it is for the best.  After all, we do not force a couple to stay together if they really do not want to.  We do grant divorces.  In the cases I am aware of, a divorce is not granted, but one or both simply move into the monastic community.  What I am unclear on is whether the Church would grant the Great Schema (i.e. final vows) to a monk with a living spouse.

So long as the Church allows for voluntary separation without canonical punishment (you'd be surprised at the number of clergy who live even in different states from their wives), it seems the monastic issue should fit right in.

As for the remark about minor children, I thought I made that clear when discussing the need not to avoid resposibilities when entering into monastic life.


ialmisry said:
Not the Church of St. Paul.  
"To the married I give charge, not I but the Lord, that the wife should not separate from her husband.  (but if she does, let her remain single or else be reconciled to her husband) --and that the husband should not divorce his wife....Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free."
The responsibilities of being a child's father or mother are much more than financial. The needs of a child are far more complex than that. How can one reconcile a parent leaving minor children to enter a monastery even when the parents may be separated or divorced? In such cases, regular and normal visitation with the children is needed and beneficial to both the child and the parent in most circumstances. It is often difficult enough for the children of married clergy to deal with the Church as teens or even as adults. I can not imagine what a father or mother leaving a child to enter a monastery would do to a child. Such an action on the part of the parent making that choice strikes me as being selfish and, frankly, just plain wrong. A Bishop who would countenance such actions is not, in my opinion, properly shepherding his flock.
 

FatherGiryus

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Where did I say that responsibility is merely financial?  I'm confused by your response, because I don't think I ever said such a thing.

podkarpatska said:
The responsibilities of being a child's father or mother are much more than financial. The needs of a child are far more complex than that. How can one reconcile a parent leaving minor children to enter a monastery even when the parents may be separated or divorced? In such cases, regular and normal visitation with the children is needed and beneficial to both the child and the parent in most circumstances. It is often difficult enough for the children of married clergy to deal with the Church as teens or even as adults. I can not imagine what a father or mother leaving a child to enter a monastery would do to a child. Such an action on the part of the parent making that choice strikes me as being selfish and, frankly, just plain wrong. A Bishop who would countenance such actions is not, in my opinion, properly shepherding his flock.
 

ialmisry

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Marc1152 said:
ialmisry said:
prodromos said:
ialmisry said:
Marc1152 said:
deusveritasest said:
synLeszka said:
In Orthodox sacramentology, does the taking of monastic tonsure by a married person negate the existence of the tonsured's marriage?
I have noticed in Tsarist statutes that one of the reasons for the dissolution of marriage is the acceptance of monastic tonsure. Does this belief still exist today?
Seeing as how the monastic life and married life are viewed as two distinct and separate realities, I would imagine that accepting one from being in the other would dissolve the previously established one.
I know someone who very recently left his family to become a Monk. Apparently the Bishop has allowed it.
Then he should be deposed.
Why?
"What God has joined together let no man put asunder."
BTW.. I tend to agree with you but I think there are some details we cant Judge from afar.
Yes. I know a couple who both went into the monastery, which I had no problem with, but then I knew all the details (or all that I needed to know).  An exception which most definitely must not be taken as a rule.  I've heard of another case, where the whole family entered the monastery and convent, which was a disaster waitiing to happen. A whole family ending up in a monastery is one thing, entering one as a family (especially with under age children), is another.

So there may be details which would not call for deposion the bishop in the original example, but when a hubands "leaves his family," that should be the rule. But I get the feeling you and I (and perhaps Fr. Girgis) are agreed on that.
 

podkarpatska

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FatherGiryus said:
Leaving one's family to become a monastic is not unheard of.  I met a monk who retired from his job and, with his wife's blessing, left her his pension and home to live the monastic life.  As long as the family is cared for and the spouse agrees, it is not a problem.

It should not be used as a means of escaping debts or responsibilities.
I read some ambiguity into the reference to the family being 'cared for and the spouse agrees.' If that were not your intent, I do apologize as I suspect we really do not disagree. Sorry for any confusion.
 
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