• For users new and old: the forum rules were streamlined when we transitioned to the new software. Please ensure that you are familiar with them. Continued use of the forum means that you (a) know the rules, and (b) pledge that you'll abide by them. For more information, check out the OrthodoxChristianity.Net Rules section. (There are only 2 threads there - Rules, and Administrative Structure.)

Roman Catholic view of Orthodox Church

Papist

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
13,771
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
39
Location
Albuquerque, New Mexico
ignatius said:
Asteriktos said:
Fwiw, the Homilies Against the Jews by St. John Chrysostom are online. It's been some years since I read them, but I don't remember him saying anything close to the idea that they should be killed. The most extreme that I remember him getting was saying that he hated them.
But what is the source of this hardness? It come from gluttony and drunkenness. Who say so? Moses himself. "Israel ate and was filled and the darling grew fat and frisky". When brute animals feed from a full manger, they grow plump and become more obstinate and hard to hold in check; they endure neither the yoke, the reins, nor the hand of the charioteer. Just so the Jewish people were driven by their drunkenness and plumpness to the ultimate evil; they kicked about, they failed to accept the yoke of Christ, nor did they pull the plow of his teaching. Another prophet hinted at this when he said: "Israel is as obstinate as a stubborn heifer". And still another called the Jews "an untamed calf". Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. ~ St. John Chrysostom
I think that genocide against the Jews would be a terrible crime. That being said, I think, but could be wrong, that executing a heretic like Arius or Luther would not necessarily be a crime.
 

ignatius

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Oct 11, 2006
Messages
1,694
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
USA
Asteriktos said:
:eek: Well that's interesting. I've read over that part a couple times, now that you pointed it out, and I don't really see that St. John is saying that the government should kill Jews or something of that sort. But it's a striking thing to say, whatever the case may be...
Actually, I am taking his statement 'out of context'... if you read the whole piece, he's not actually saying that anyone should 'kill the Jews'... what I think he's pointing out is that God did at different times to chasten them.
 

Papist

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
13,771
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
39
Location
Albuquerque, New Mexico
ignatius said:
Asteriktos said:
:eek: Well that's interesting. I've read over that part a couple times, now that you pointed it out, and I don't really see that St. John is saying that the government should kill Jews or something of that sort. But it's a striking thing to say, whatever the case may be...
Actually, I am taking his statement 'out of context'... if you read the whole piece, he's not actually saying that anyone should 'kill the Jews'... what I think he's pointing out is that God did at different times to chasten them.
Fair enough.
 

ignatius

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Oct 11, 2006
Messages
1,694
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
USA
Papist said:
ignatius said:
Asteriktos said:
:eek: Well that's interesting. I've read over that part a couple times, now that you pointed it out, and I don't really see that St. John is saying that the government should kill Jews or something of that sort. But it's a striking thing to say, whatever the case may be...
Actually, I am taking his statement 'out of context'... if you read the whole piece, he's not actually saying that anyone should 'kill the Jews'... what I think he's pointing out is that God did at different times to chasten them.
Fair enough.
Our churches are not like that; they are truly frightening and filled with fear. God's presence makes a place frightening because he has power over life and death. In our churches we hear countless homilies on eternal punishments, on rivers of fire, on the venomous worm, on bonds that cannot be burst, or exterior darkness. But the Jews neither know nor dream of these things. They live for their bellies, they gape for the things of this world, their condition is not better than that of pigs or goats because of their wanton ways and excessive gluttony. They know but one thing: to fill their bellies and be drunk, to get all cut and bruised, to be hurt and wounded while fighting for their favorite charioteers. ~ St. John Chrysostom


You know you won't find many Orthodox, or modern Catholics for that matter, speaking about their Parishes as being "truly frightening and filled with fear....".

Perhaps we don't have as much in common with the early Church as you might like to think?
 

Papist

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
13,771
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
39
Location
Albuquerque, New Mexico
ignatius said:
Papist said:
ignatius said:
Asteriktos said:
:eek: Well that's interesting. I've read over that part a couple times, now that you pointed it out, and I don't really see that St. John is saying that the government should kill Jews or something of that sort. But it's a striking thing to say, whatever the case may be...
Actually, I am taking his statement 'out of context'... if you read the whole piece, he's not actually saying that anyone should 'kill the Jews'... what I think he's pointing out is that God did at different times to chasten them.
Fair enough.
Our churches are not like that; they are truly frightening and filled with fear. God's presence makes a place frightening because he has power over life and death. In our churches we hear countless homilies on eternal punishments, on rivers of fire, on the venomous worm, on bonds that cannot be burst, or exterior darkness. But the Jews neither know nor dream of these things. They live for their bellies, they gape for the things of this world, their condition is not better than that of pigs or goats because of their wanton ways and excessive gluttony. They know but one thing: to fill their bellies and be drunk, to get all cut and bruised, to be hurt and wounded while fighting for their favorite charioteers. ~ St. John Chrysostom


You know you won't find many Orthodox, or modern Catholics for that matter, speaking about their Parishes as being "truly frightening and filled with fear....".

Perhaps we don't have as much in common with the early Church as you might like to think?
That is very true, especially when I hear talk only of God's love but never of his justice to those who reject his love.
 

AlexanderOfBergamo

High Elder
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
706
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
37
Location
Bergamo, Italy
Asteriktos said:
Fwiw, the Homilies Against the Jews by St. John Chrysostom are online. It's been some years since I read them, but I don't remember him saying anything close to the idea that they should be killed. The most extreme that I remember him getting was saying that he hated them.
Even in that case, we shouldn't imitate him on this. "Love your enemies" says the Gospel. John Chrysostom was in error in being filled with hatred for the Jews. So, I think that this is the case to remember that saints were sinners. And yes, they were weak and fallible.
We must imitate Christ. St. Paul is using a correct wording in this: "Be my imitators, as I am of Christ". We must imitate the saints only when they truly imitate Christ. During their lifespans, saints have erred and even sinned (even st. Peter did, according to legend, on the Quo vadis episode!)... and we should separate those moments of weakness from the moments when they truly followed Christ - and in this it's the Church (whatever Church we might belong) to define when a person was judged a saint.
I wouldn't put too much attention on the weaknesses of our ancestors in the faith: how can we judge them, when we make even worse sins? We are just dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants, yet we insist that we're taller then giants! This is not how the Gospel works... "Don't judge, if you don't want to be judged".

In Christ,  Alex
 

ignatius

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Oct 11, 2006
Messages
1,694
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
USA
AlexanderOfBergamo said:
Asteriktos said:
Fwiw, the Homilies Against the Jews by St. John Chrysostom are online. It's been some years since I read them, but I don't remember him saying anything close to the idea that they should be killed. The most extreme that I remember him getting was saying that he hated them.
Even in that case, we shouldn't imitate him on this. "Love your enemies" says the Gospel. John Chrysostom was in error in being filled with hatred for the Jews. So, I think that this is the case to remember that saints were sinners. And yes, they were weak and fallible.
We must imitate Christ. St. Paul is using a correct wording in this: "Be my imitators, as I am of Christ". We must imitate the saints only when they truly imitate Christ. During their lifespans, saints have erred and even sinned (even st. Peter did, according to legend, on the Quo vadis episode!)... and we should separate those moments of weakness from the moments when they truly followed Christ - and in this it's the Church (whatever Church we might belong) to define when a person was judged a saint.
I wouldn't put too much attention on the weaknesses of our ancestors in the faith: how can we judge them, when we make even worse sins? We are just dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants, yet we insist that we're taller then giants! This is not how the Gospel works... "Don't judge, if you don't want to be judged".

In Christ,   Alex
If we don't make judgments, how are we to discern when a Saint is truly imitating Christ? You exercise discernment (i.e. make a judgment) and then right after say "Don't judge....".

That appears to be hypocritical.
 
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Messages
360
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Papist said:
ignatius said:
Papist said:
ignatius said:
Asteriktos said:
:eek: Well that's interesting. I've read over that part a couple times, now that you pointed it out, and I don't really see that St. John is saying that the government should kill Jews or something of that sort. But it's a striking thing to say, whatever the case may be...
Actually, I am taking his statement 'out of context'... if you read the whole piece, he's not actually saying that anyone should 'kill the Jews'... what I think he's pointing out is that God did at different times to chasten them.
Fair enough.
Our churches are not like that; they are truly frightening and filled with fear. God's presence makes a place frightening because he has power over life and death. In our churches we hear countless homilies on eternal punishments, on rivers of fire, on the venomous worm, on bonds that cannot be burst, or exterior darkness. But the Jews neither know nor dream of these things. They live for their bellies, they gape for the things of this world, their condition is not better than that of pigs or goats because of their wanton ways and excessive gluttony. They know but one thing: to fill their bellies and be drunk, to get all cut and bruised, to be hurt and wounded while fighting for their favorite charioteers. ~ St. John Chrysostom


You know you won't find many Orthodox, or modern Catholics for that matter, speaking about their Parishes as being "truly frightening and filled with fear....".

Perhaps we don't have as much in common with the early Church as you might like to think?
That is very true, especially when I hear talk only of God's love but never of his justice to those who reject his love.
The problem to speak of the justice of the Lord, is that if you start to speak of it, you probably will be qualified as fundamentalist, and people will stop to hear you.
 

AlexanderOfBergamo

High Elder
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
706
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
37
Location
Bergamo, Italy
ignatius said:
AlexanderOfBergamo said:
Asteriktos said:
Fwiw, the Homilies Against the Jews by St. John Chrysostom are online. It's been some years since I read them, but I don't remember him saying anything close to the idea that they should be killed. The most extreme that I remember him getting was saying that he hated them.
Even in that case, we shouldn't imitate him on this. "Love your enemies" says the Gospel. John Chrysostom was in error in being filled with hatred for the Jews. So, I think that this is the case to remember that saints were sinners. And yes, they were weak and fallible.
We must imitate Christ. St. Paul is using a correct wording in this: "Be my imitators, as I am of Christ". We must imitate the saints only when they truly imitate Christ. During their lifespans, saints have erred and even sinned (even st. Peter did, according to legend, on the Quo vadis episode!)... and we should separate those moments of weakness from the moments when they truly followed Christ - and in this it's the Church (whatever Church we might belong) to define when a person was judged a saint.
I wouldn't put too much attention on the weaknesses of our ancestors in the faith: how can we judge them, when we make even worse sins? We are just dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants, yet we insist that we're taller then giants! This is not how the Gospel works... "Don't judge, if you don't want to be judged".

In Christ,   Alex
If we don't make judgments, how are we to discern when a Saint is truly imitating Christ? You exercise discernment (i.e. make a judgment) and then right after say "Don't judge....".

That appears to be hypocritical.
"Judge the sin, don't judge the sinner".
There's no hypocricy in this.
 

ignatius

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Oct 11, 2006
Messages
1,694
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
USA
Alonso_castillo said:
The problem to speak of the justice of the Lord, is that if you start to speak of it, you probably will be qualified as fundamentalist, and people will stop to hear you.
So are you then saying that we should change the Gospel because of the hardness of men's hearts?
 

ignatius

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Oct 11, 2006
Messages
1,694
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
USA
AlexanderOfBergamo said:
ignatius said:
AlexanderOfBergamo said:
Asteriktos said:
Fwiw, the Homilies Against the Jews by St. John Chrysostom are online. It's been some years since I read them, but I don't remember him saying anything close to the idea that they should be killed. The most extreme that I remember him getting was saying that he hated them.
Even in that case, we shouldn't imitate him on this. "Love your enemies" says the Gospel. John Chrysostom was in error in being filled with hatred for the Jews. So, I think that this is the case to remember that saints were sinners. And yes, they were weak and fallible.
We must imitate Christ. St. Paul is using a correct wording in this: "Be my imitators, as I am of Christ". We must imitate the saints only when they truly imitate Christ. During their lifespans, saints have erred and even sinned (even st. Peter did, according to legend, on the Quo vadis episode!)... and we should separate those moments of weakness from the moments when they truly followed Christ - and in this it's the Church (whatever Church we might belong) to define when a person was judged a saint.
I wouldn't put too much attention on the weaknesses of our ancestors in the faith: how can we judge them, when we make even worse sins? We are just dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants, yet we insist that we're taller then giants! This is not how the Gospel works... "Don't judge, if you don't want to be judged".

In Christ,   Alex
If we don't make judgments, how are we to discern when a Saint is truly imitating Christ? You exercise discernment (i.e. make a judgment) and then right after say "Don't judge....".

That appears to be hypocritical.
"Judge the sin, don't judge the sinner".
There's no hypocricy in this.
You appear to conflate... judgment, discernment and condemnation. What do you think Judgment is? Define what you mean by it?
 

stanley123

Protokentarchos
Joined
Nov 23, 2007
Messages
3,814
Reaction score
0
Points
36
In reading through some of these posts, my impression is that the Catholic view of the Orthodox Church is a bit softer than the Orthodox view of the Catholic Church.
 

AlexanderOfBergamo

High Elder
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
706
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
37
Location
Bergamo, Italy
You appear to conflate... judgment, discernment and condemnation. What do you think Judgment is? Define what you mean by it?
Judgment means to condemn somebody as sinner. Discernment, means to distinguish the good from the evil, even in the same person. Condemnation, is judgment for the wicked as inacted by God. This is my understanding, but that's linked to the fact that I translate in Italian "judgment" as "giudizio" and some words in English might sound differently in your language as it does in mine.
 
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Messages
360
Reaction score
0
Points
0
ignatius said:
Alonso_castillo said:
The problem to speak of the justice of the Lord, is that if you start to speak of it, you probably will be qualified as fundamentalist, and people will stop to hear you.
So are you then saying that we should change the Gospel because of the hardness of men's hearts?

No, I am saying that first, people should be helped to love Our Lord Jesus, and then we have to show them that in love He has commanded us to behave properly, elsewhere there will be not justification and we can fall away from God eternally.
 

AlexanderOfBergamo

High Elder
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
706
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
37
Location
Bergamo, Italy
stanley123 said:
In reading through some of these posts, my impression is that the Catholic view of the Orthodox Church is a bit softer than the Orthodox view of the Catholic Church.
It seems to be true, and this thread seems to prove it. Of course, the problem lies in the Catholic church too. The ancient aggressivity towards Orthodoxy since 1000 years ago has left too much scars in the memories of the Orthodox. That's very sad, because the open attitude of Catholicism in our days is really a good occasion for dialogue and eventually reunion.
 
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Messages
360
Reaction score
0
Points
0
stanley123 said:
In reading through some of these posts, my impression is that the Catholic view of the Orthodox Church is a bit softer than the Orthodox view of the Catholic Church.
Mathew 5:43-48

43  "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.
46 For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same?
47 And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same?
48 So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.



 

ignatius

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Oct 11, 2006
Messages
1,694
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
USA
AlexanderOfBergamo said:
You appear to conflate... judgment, discernment and condemnation. What do you think Judgment is? Define what you mean by it?
Judgment means to condemn somebody as sinner. Discernment, means to distinguish the good from the evil, even in the same person. Condemnation, is judgment for the wicked as inacted by God. This is my understanding, but that's linked to the fact that I translate in Italian "judgment" as "giudizio" and some words in English might sound differently in your language as it does in mine.
Good, we both agree that as Christians we are to exercise 'discernment' and that such does not 'judge' or 'condemn' but it does allow one to 'know' error in others and to avoid it in our own lives. This is good.

Far too many Christians in our own day think that when we are instructed 'not to judge' that we are actually not to exercise any discernment of other's error. Well that is clearly not the case.
 

deusveritasest

Taxiarches
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
7,521
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Papist said:
deusveritasest said:
Alveus Lacuna said:
deusveritasest said:
Well, it sort of makes sense. If heresy is a "choice", particularly a choice against the judgment of the Church, that choice can really only be made in the same sense if one is under the judgment of the Church in the first place.
Yes, but then even many in the Roman Catholic communion are believing heretical ideas, which means that there has to be some level of awareness when committing a heresy to formally be considered a heretic.  When combining these realities, then almost no one is ever culpable for committing heresy, at least formally.
I think it would be a better idea to refer to them as the heterodox, as such.
What is the difference between being a heretic and being heterodox?
Like I said, "heretic" refers to choosing to reject the judgment of the Church on doctrinal matters, heterodox simply refers to those who are not consistent with the Church's dogmatic definitions.
 

deusveritasest

Taxiarches
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
7,521
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Papist said:
deusveritasest said:
Irish Hermit said:
GregoryLA said:
Do you remember where Aquinas recommended killing non-Catholics?  I don't mean any disrespect by asking for sources, Father, and I know you're not the sort to say things without being able to back them up- that's just really shocking and I'd like to see where he said it.
Herre are the passges from Aquinas' Summa Theologica:

Aquin.: SMT SS Q[11] A[3] Body Para. 1/2

I answer that, With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death.

Aquin.: SMT SS Q[11] A[3] Body Para. 2/2

On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but "after the first and second admonition," as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death. For Jerome commenting on Gal. 5:9, "A little leaven," says: "Cut off the decayed flesh, expel the mangy sheep from the fold, lest the whole house, the whole paste, the whole body, the whole flock, burn, perish, rot, die. Arius was but one spark in Alexandria, but as that spark was not at once put out, the whole earth was laid waste by its flame."
What you think Aquinas is meaning by "heretics" and what he actually meant by it are not necessarily one and the same. I had the matter explained to me once by a Trad Cath who said that only those who are actually part of the Church and then choosing to pervert its teachings are actually heretics. Thus, all denominations that have already become asunder from it are not heretics in this sense.
It has always been my understanding that when Aquinas was referring to the heretics that should be recieve capital punishment, he is talking about men like Arius who where spreading and teaching heresy among the faithful, not your average material heretic.
Yes, that is my understanding as well.
 

deusveritasest

Taxiarches
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
7,521
Reaction score
0
Points
0
ignatius said:
This line of thinking really raises the question with regards to Saints... are 'all' our Saints truly worthy of imitation or have we allowed cultural and historical biases to enter into the values of the Church?
I highly doubt all of the Saints are worthy of imitation in all respects of what they did or thought. But I also don't think that means that the values that informed their glorification are askew.
 

deusveritasest

Taxiarches
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
7,521
Reaction score
0
Points
0
stanley123 said:
In reading through some of these posts, my impression is that the Catholic view of the Orthodox Church is a bit softer than the Orthodox view of the Catholic Church.
That may even be a bit of a understatement.
 

Irish Hermit

Merarches
Joined
Oct 11, 2003
Messages
10,980
Reaction score
3
Points
0
Location
Middle Earth
Papist said:
ignatius said:
Papist said:
ignatius said:
Grace and Peace,

This line of thinking really raises the question with regards to Saints... are 'all' our Saints truly worthy of imitation or have we allowed cultural and historical biases to enter into the values of the Church?
I think Aquinas is certainly worthy of veneration.
But is he worth imitation? We don't veneration Saints other than they are worth imitation as they were imitators of Christ. Would Christ say we should kill the Pharisees? I don't think so. So we must ask ourselves if he is truly worthy of imitation. I feel the same way about many of the 'Pious' Emperors of the Eastern Empire. Eastern Imperial Culture was not necessarily 'worthy' of imitation from a Christian perspective. The acts of those Emperors were not necessarily 'worthy' of Christian imitation either. So we have the ask the question... why are they venerated as Saints? Was it simply 'cultural' pride of the times?
I think that if we were living in a Christian country with Catholicism as the state Church, and we had due process, it would be appropriate to execute men like Arius.
Precisely.  And in modern Russia it would be quite possible to get a bill through the Duma mandating the death penalty for the Roman Catholic bishops who are promulgating heresy in the country.  Possibly for priests as well. 
 

deusveritasest

Taxiarches
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
7,521
Reaction score
0
Points
0
AlexanderOfBergamo said:
stanley123 said:
In reading through some of these posts, my impression is that the Catholic view of the Orthodox Church is a bit softer than the Orthodox view of the Catholic Church.
It seems to be true, and this thread seems to prove it. Of course, the problem lies in the Catholic church too. The ancient aggressivity towards Orthodoxy since 1000 years ago has left too much scars in the memories of the Orthodox. That's very sad, because the open attitude of Catholicism in our days is really a good occasion for dialogue and eventually reunion.
I wouldn't say so. The Romanists seem only interested in a false union of Communion amidst divergent "theological traditions".
 

deusveritasest

Taxiarches
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
7,521
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Irish Hermit said:
Papist said:
ignatius said:
Papist said:
ignatius said:
Grace and Peace,

This line of thinking really raises the question with regards to Saints... are 'all' our Saints truly worthy of imitation or have we allowed cultural and historical biases to enter into the values of the Church?
I think Aquinas is certainly worthy of veneration.
But is he worth imitation? We don't veneration Saints other than they are worth imitation as they were imitators of Christ. Would Christ say we should kill the Pharisees? I don't think so. So we must ask ourselves if he is truly worthy of imitation. I feel the same way about many of the 'Pious' Emperors of the Eastern Empire. Eastern Imperial Culture was not necessarily 'worthy' of imitation from a Christian perspective. The acts of those Emperors were not necessarily 'worthy' of Christian imitation either. So we have the ask the question... why are they venerated as Saints? Was it simply 'cultural' pride of the times?
I think that if we were living in a Christian country with Catholicism as the state Church, and we had due process, it would be appropriate to execute men like Arius.
Precisely.  And in modern Russia it would be quite possible to get a bill through the Duma mandating the death penalty for the Roman Catholic bishops who are promulgating heresy in the country.   Possibly for priests as well.   
No, there's a moratorium on capital punishment right now.
 

Irish Hermit

Merarches
Joined
Oct 11, 2003
Messages
10,980
Reaction score
3
Points
0
Location
Middle Earth
deusveritasest said:
Irish Hermit said:
Papist said:
ignatius said:
Papist said:
ignatius said:
Grace and Peace,

This line of thinking really raises the question with regards to Saints... are 'all' our Saints truly worthy of imitation or have we allowed cultural and historical biases to enter into the values of the Church?
I think Aquinas is certainly worthy of veneration.
But is he worth imitation? We don't veneration Saints other than they are worth imitation as they were imitators of Christ. Would Christ say we should kill the Pharisees? I don't think so. So we must ask ourselves if he is truly worthy of imitation. I feel the same way about many of the 'Pious' Emperors of the Eastern Empire. Eastern Imperial Culture was not necessarily 'worthy' of imitation from a Christian perspective. The acts of those Emperors were not necessarily 'worthy' of Christian imitation either. So we have the ask the question... why are they venerated as Saints? Was it simply 'cultural' pride of the times?
I think that if we were living in a Christian country with Catholicism as the state Church, and we had due process, it would be appropriate to execute men like Arius.
Precisely.  And in modern Russia it would be quite possible to get a bill through the Duma mandating the death penalty for the Roman Catholic bishops who are promulgating heresy in the country.   Possibly for priests as well.   
No, there's a moratorium on capital punishment right now.
I feel sure that the influence of the Patriarch and Holy Synod could deal with that in the specific case of the Catholic bishops and priests spreading heresy and sedition.  They are waging war upon the soul of Russia.
 

Irish Hermit

Merarches
Joined
Oct 11, 2003
Messages
10,980
Reaction score
3
Points
0
Location
Middle Earth
deusveritasest said:
It seems that you're being sarcastic anyway.
I am following through with the comments of Papist about the extermination of heretics which he sees as a future possibility and not something in the remote past.  If the Russian State is twitchy about imposing the death penalty becasus of the EU, I am sure the Brown Shirts could be asked to take care of removing heretics.  Putin has a good relationship with them and they are dedicated to the purity of Russia, freeing it from Western influences.
 

deusveritasest

Taxiarches
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
7,521
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Irish Hermit said:
deusveritasest said:
It seems that you're being sarcastic anyway.
I am following through with the comments of Papist about the extermination of heretics which he sees as a future possibility and not something in the remote past.  If the Russian State is twitchy about imposing the death penalty becasus of the EU, I am sure the Brown Shirts could be asked to take care of removing heretics.  Putin has a good relationship with them and they are dedicated to the purity of Russia, freeing it from Western influences.
And yet I am expecting that you are doing so in a sarcastic manner, because I doubt you really have any interest in any such executions.
 

Irish Hermit

Merarches
Joined
Oct 11, 2003
Messages
10,980
Reaction score
3
Points
0
Location
Middle Earth
deusveritasest said:
And yet I am expecting that you are doing so in a sarcastic manner, because I doubt you really have any interest in any such executions.
Sarcasm is such a nasty word.  It is almost always delivered with insults and scorn which is not something I would wish to do.  I remember that previous attempts at irony have fallen flat on their faces on the Forum.  A British sense of irony doesn't translate well into America.  Not to worry.
 
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Messages
360
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Irish Hermit said:
deusveritasest said:
Irish Hermit said:
Papist said:
ignatius said:
Papist said:
ignatius said:
Grace and Peace,

This line of thinking really raises the question with regards to Saints... are 'all' our Saints truly worthy of imitation or have we allowed cultural and historical biases to enter into the values of the Church?
I think Aquinas is certainly worthy of veneration.
But is he worth imitation? We don't veneration Saints other than they are worth imitation as they were imitators of Christ. Would Christ say we should kill the Pharisees? I don't think so. So we must ask ourselves if he is truly worthy of imitation. I feel the same way about many of the 'Pious' Emperors of the Eastern Empire. Eastern Imperial Culture was not necessarily 'worthy' of imitation from a Christian perspective. The acts of those Emperors were not necessarily 'worthy' of Christian imitation either. So we have the ask the question... why are they venerated as Saints? Was it simply 'cultural' pride of the times?
I think that if we were living in a Christian country with Catholicism as the state Church, and we had due process, it would be appropriate to execute men like Arius.
Precisely.  And in modern Russia it would be quite possible to get a bill through the Duma mandating the death penalty for the Roman Catholic bishops who are promulgating heresy in the country.  Possibly for priests as well. 
No, there's a moratorium on capital punishment right now.
I feel sure that the influence of the Patriarch and Holy Synod could deal with that in the specific case of the Catholic bishops and priests spreading heresy and sedition.  They are waging war upon the soul of Russia.
Lol, in Mexico we have a said:

La Zorra no se ve la cola (fox don't see its tail)

¿What is doing orthodoxy in America? the same that Catholics are doing in Russia.

 

deusveritasest

Taxiarches
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
7,521
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Alonso_castillo said:
¿What is doing orthodoxy in America? the same that Catholics are doing in Russia.
At best they are not wholly comparable. America is not a traditionally Romanist country.
 

Rafa999

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Dec 10, 2009
Messages
1,591
Reaction score
0
Points
0
deusveritasest said:
AlexanderOfBergamo said:
stanley123 said:
In reading through some of these posts, my impression is that the Catholic view of the Orthodox Church is a bit softer than the Orthodox view of the Catholic Church.
It seems to be true, and this thread seems to prove it. Of course, the problem lies in the Catholic church too. The ancient aggressivity towards Orthodoxy since 1000 years ago has left too much scars in the memories of the Orthodox. That's very sad, because the open attitude of Catholicism in our days is really a good occasion for dialogue and eventually reunion.
I wouldn't say so. The Romanists seem only interested in a false union of Communion amidst divergent "theological traditions".
What sectarian garbage. The COE views orthodoxy and RCC differences as merely political. All apostolic churches have basically the same doctrine in a different cultural mindset. The COE agrees with this, the Vatican agrees with this. Surely you think the apostles would know how to choose their successor right? Anathematize individuals not apostolic churches. I was shocked when I heard the orthodox church considers people who take communion in the RCC as supreme heretics non-christians cultist outside the church. What a joke, you guys were the same church before 1054. "Oh I need to get re-chrismated because I went in the catholic church and saw THEIR icon instead of mine". Please...
 

Orthodox11

Archon
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Messages
2,994
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Rafa999 said:
What a joke, you guys were the same church before 1054.
And then we became two churches, while each continued confessing a belief in ONE, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
 

Asteriktos

Strategos
Joined
Oct 4, 2002
Messages
39,563
Reaction score
313
Points
83
Rafa999 said:
"Oh I need to get re-chrismated because I went in the catholic church and saw THEIR icon instead of mine". Please...
::)
 

deusveritasest

Taxiarches
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
7,521
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Rafa999 said:
The COE views orthodoxy and RCC differences as merely political.
The ACE seems almost as interested in false union. If you actually cared to look at all the theological variances, I'm sure it would become clear that it is not simply politics.

Rafa999 said:
All apostolic churches have basically the same doctrine in a different cultural mindset.
Sounds like Roman ecumenist garbage to me. The variations between the Eastern churches and the ecclesia of Rome on matters of dogma are pretty obvious to me.

Rafa999 said:
Surely you think the apostles would know how to choose their successor right?
Of course they did. And that's pretty much why there no huge dogmatic variation in the Church for almost the first 300 years. But that doesn't mean that their successors will all be as competent.

Rafa999 said:
Anathematize individuals not apostolic churches.
Theodore of Mopsuestia is anathematized; I see no reason to regard those who follow him as outside of the Church.

Rafa999 said:
What a joke, you guys were the same church before 1054.
Not I. The OO division from Rome was formalized in 451.
 

deusveritasest

Taxiarches
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
7,521
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Rafa999 said:
All apostolic churches have basically the same doctrine in a different cultural mindset.
Besides, I don't even like the term "Apostolic churches". It's quite a misnomer. It assumes the Romanist mechanical idea that if an ecclesiastical body merely continue the historic succession through the episcopate by laying on of hands through from the Apostles that this is enough to qualify Apostolic Succession and thus for the body in question to be legitimately called an "Apostolic church". I don't buy that idea though. Traditional Eastern conception of Apostolic Succession requires a greater imitation of the Apostles, such as holding to their doctrine, to maintain the substance of what it means to be their successor. As such, I don't think all the "Apostolic churches" actually have Apostolic Succession.
 

Rafa999

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Dec 10, 2009
Messages
1,591
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Theodore of Mopsuestia is anathematized; I see no reason to regard those who follow him as outside of the Church.
So is Cyril and Dioscorus. Your own EO pals call Dioscorus a cursed heretic who beat a patriarch to death!
 

ignatius

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Oct 11, 2006
Messages
1,694
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
USA
Grace and Peace,

I honestly believe that these kinds of things need to be worked out with our Patriarchs and not necessarily those of us with biases against one another.

Personally, I've learned a great deal from my exposure to Orthodoxy and I am well pleased. I hope to one day enter Holy Orthodoxy but I will never don the 'orthodox team shirt' and sit around and blast the West or the Western Church.
 
Top