• Please remember: Pray for Ukraine in the Prayer forum; Share news in the Christian News section; Discuss religious implications in FFA: Religious Topics; Discuss political implications in Politics (and if you don't have access, PM me) Thank you! + Fr. George, Forum Administrator

Roman Catholics..is Jesus our brother and sister?

username!

Protokentarchos
Site Supporter
Joined
Aug 21, 2005
Messages
5,090
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Where Iron hydrochloride ruins watersheds
Friend of mine had to attend a Roman Catholic function. The event was opened with a prayer that concluded. ."we ask through Jesus, who is our brother and sister amen." So when did Catholics start believing Jesus was both a male and a female at the same time?
 

Alveus Lacuna

Taxiarches
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
7,441
Reaction score
24
Points
38
Location
Missouri, USA
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
OCA
username! said:
Friend of mine had to attend a Roman Catholic function. The event was opened with a prayer that concluded. ."we ask through Jesus, who is our brother and sister amen." So when did Catholics start believing Jesus was both a male and a female at the same time?
A proper statement would have been "Who's image is in our brother and our sister", but this just sounds like spiritual goop.
 

LizaSymonenko

Hoplitarches
Staff member
Global Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
16,811
Reaction score
899
Points
113
Location
Detroit
Website
uocofusa.org
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
That's just nuts.

So, does that make him both the Son and Daughter of God?

This politically correct stuff is just too much. 

Will they be ordaining female clergy next?
 

Nephi

Protokentarchos
Joined
Apr 18, 2011
Messages
4,829
Reaction score
1
Points
38
Age
31
Faith
Deist
Jurisdiction
N/A
username! said:
Friend of mine had to attend a Roman Catholic function. The event was opened with a prayer that concluded. ."we ask through Jesus, who is our brother and sister amen." So when did Catholics start believing Jesus was both a male and a female at the same time?
Since Feminist Catholics. See people like Elizabeth Johnson who really forced open this whole can of worms in Catholicism. If you want to learn about it, read her She Who Is (among her other works), where she goes to great length to argue that:

1) God is a Mystery.
2) Since God is a mystery, our descriptions/names fall infinitely short.
3) Since they all fall short, all descriptions/names are equally valid (and invalid).

Tie in all of that with the notion of "women's experience," and reinterpreting all of Church patrimony through that lens, and there you go - Jesus is a sister or an aunt or whatever.

There other feminist Catholics, but she seems the most influential. She was even criticized by the USCCB. My one Catholic professor loves her works, keeps contact with her, and unfortunately drilled the book into us. The majority of the Catholics in my class seemed sympathetic to it.
 

Mor Ephrem

Hypatos
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 3, 2002
Messages
36,444
Reaction score
339
Points
83
Age
41
Location
New York!
Website
www.orthodoxchristianity.net
Faith
Mercenary Freudianism
Jurisdiction
Texas Feminist Coptic
I knew a Jesuit who, at Mass, would conclude the general intercessions "Though Jesus Christ, our Lord and brother", but this is quite another thing entirely. 

Nephi said:
See people like Elizabeth Johnson who really forced open this whole can of worms in Catholicism. If you want to learn about it, read her She Who Is (among her other works), where she goes to great length to argue that:

1) God is a Mystery.
2) Since God is a mystery, our descriptions/names fall infinitely short.
3) Since they all fall short, all descriptions/names are equally valid (and invalid).
Points 1 and 2 are true, but 3 represents a critical shift: our descriptions/names may fall short, but it does not follow that all descriptions/names are equally (in)valid, unless you've decided to reject revelation.   
 

podkarpatska

Merarches
Joined
Oct 24, 2009
Messages
9,732
Reaction score
3
Points
0
Location
Northeast United States
Website
www.acrod.org
Mor Ephrem said:
I knew a Jesuit who, at Mass, would conclude the general intercessions "Though Jesus Christ, our Lord and brother", but this is quite another thing entirely. 

Nephi said:
See people like Elizabeth Johnson who really forced open this whole can of worms in Catholicism. If you want to learn about it, read her She Who Is (among her other works), where she goes to great length to argue that:

1) God is a Mystery.
2) Since God is a mystery, our descriptions/names fall infinitely short.
3) Since they all fall short, all descriptions/names are equally valid (and invalid).
Points 1 and 2 are true, but 3 represents a critical shift: our descriptions/names may fall short, but it does not follow that all descriptions/names are equally (in)valid, unless you've decided to reject revelation.   
You beat me to it. One and two are correct, but three does not logically follow.

When I was a child and sermons in the Rusyn language (I suspect Ukrainians heard the same or similar phrases) were offered at all services, the phrase, "Мої дорогі брати і сестри у Христі,
Moyi dorohi braty i sestry u Khrysti," meaning "My dear brothers and sisters in Christ" was regularly heard. This would be a proper use of inclusive words without the need to resort to redefine Jesus. This phrase is linked to "Jelitci", the hymn used in place of the Thrice Holy on great feasts, "As many as have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ."

Christ came to the world as a man, not an asexual or androgeonous figure. I would submit that the phrasing referenced by the OP opens up a can of worms and leads to heresy.
 

Deep Roots

Elder
Joined
Dec 16, 2011
Messages
377
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Age
40
Location
Baltimore
My priest, in his opening prayer, always begins "Loving and merciful God, Mother and Father of us all..."

I love it.
 

Anna.T

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Mar 9, 2014
Messages
1,076
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Florida USA
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction
GOARCH
I have seen where the Scriptures identify the Father and Jesus with the actions or emotions of females, but never with their persons.

I'm thinking of "I would have gathered you under my wings as a hen gathers her chicks" or that He remembers us as (more than) a mother remembers a nursing child.

But it is the feelings, or the actions, or the intent. I can't recall God the Father or Jesus Christ ever being actually identified with a female.

Reminds me too much of the "Earth Mother" pagan religions. And I didn't grow up relating well to father-figures and would have more easily accepted a "mother figure" but it still doesn't work for me.
 

podkarpatska

Merarches
Joined
Oct 24, 2009
Messages
9,732
Reaction score
3
Points
0
Location
Northeast United States
Website
www.acrod.org
Applying dual sexuality to God is inconsistent with Scripture (in both its source and modern languages), Holy Tradition and doctrine of the Church.

Inventing a new religion is nothing new, just don't consider it to be part of the patrimony of the one, Holy, Undivided , Apostolic and Catholic church - either pre or post the Great Schism.


 

stanley123

Protokentarchos
Joined
Nov 23, 2007
Messages
3,817
Reaction score
2
Points
38
Faith
Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction
USA
Nephi said:
username! said:
Friend of mine had to attend a Roman Catholic function. The event was opened with a prayer that concluded. ."we ask through Jesus, who is our brother and sister amen." So when did Catholics start believing Jesus was both a male and a female at the same time?
Since Feminist Catholics. See people like Elizabeth Johnson who really forced open this whole can of worms in Catholicism. If you want to learn about it, read her She Who Is (among her other works), where she goes to great length to argue that:

1) God is a Mystery.
2) Since God is a mystery, our descriptions/names fall infinitely short.
3) Since they all fall short, all descriptions/names are equally valid (and invalid).

Tie in all of that with the notion of "women's experience," and reinterpreting all of Church patrimony through that lens, and there you go - Jesus is a sister or an aunt or whatever.

There other feminist Catholics, but she seems the most influential. She was even criticized by the USCCB. My one Catholic professor loves her works, keeps contact with her, and unfortunately drilled the book into us. The majority of the Catholics in my class seemed sympathetic to it.
Feminism has been creeping into the RCC since Vatican II.
 

Deep Roots

Elder
Joined
Dec 16, 2011
Messages
377
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Age
40
Location
Baltimore
Papist said:
Jesus is our brother. <full stop>
Biologically speaking, yes, Jesus of Nazareth the incarnate God the Son, is/was male.  Yes, that is true.
 

Alveus Lacuna

Taxiarches
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
7,441
Reaction score
24
Points
38
Location
Missouri, USA
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
OCA
Deep Roots said:
My priest, in his opening prayer, always begins "Loving and merciful God, Mother and Father of us all..."

I love it.
Forget that noise.

God is like a mother. Father is a revealed name of God.
 

DeniseDenise

Taxiarches
Joined
Apr 22, 2013
Messages
6,863
Reaction score
85
Points
48
Age
51
Faith
Does it matter?
Jurisdiction
Unverifiable, so irrelevant

WPM

Taxiarches
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
7,775
Reaction score
17
Points
0
Age
39
Faith
Ethiopian Jew
Which is an appeal to personal feelings ... Equating God with how we feel or how we think.
 

Deep Roots

Elder
Joined
Dec 16, 2011
Messages
377
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Age
40
Location
Baltimore
Alveus Lacuna said:
Deep Roots said:
My priest, in his opening prayer, always begins "Loving and merciful God, Mother and Father of us all..."

I love it.
Forget that noise.

God is like a mother. Father is a revealed name of God.
Eh. I like it.

Thanks for adding your voice to the conversation, though.
 

Heorot

Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2014
Messages
105
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
33
Location
Canada
Website
almepater.wordpress.com
"In a certain sense" (the best preface both to a heretical and to a mystical statement), God is motherly to us and fatherly to us, for His is neither male nor female; however, God is certainly masculine, as an abstract principle.

"Roman Catholics" never believed Jesus was a hermaphrodite or anything like that, even metaphorically. It's the 1960s-1970s generation.

Anglicans have low, broad, and high, right?
Catholics have charismatic, liberal, and neocon! :)

It all makes sense.  :-\
 

Mor Ephrem

Hypatos
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 3, 2002
Messages
36,444
Reaction score
339
Points
83
Age
41
Location
New York!
Website
www.orthodoxchristianity.net
Faith
Mercenary Freudianism
Jurisdiction
Texas Feminist Coptic
Deep Roots said:
My priest, in his opening prayer, always begins "Loving and merciful God, Mother and Father of us all..."
I love it.
Why do you love it when your priest, in her and his opening prayer, always begins "Loving and merciful God, Mother and Father of us all..."?  
 

Nephi

Protokentarchos
Joined
Apr 18, 2011
Messages
4,829
Reaction score
1
Points
38
Age
31
Faith
Deist
Jurisdiction
N/A
Mor Ephrem said:
Nephi said:
See people like Elizabeth Johnson who really forced open this whole can of worms in Catholicism. If you want to learn about it, read her She Who Is (among her other works), where she goes to great length to argue that:

1) God is a Mystery.
2) Since God is a mystery, our descriptions/names fall infinitely short.
3) Since they all fall short, all descriptions/names are equally valid (and invalid).
Points 1 and 2 are true, but 3 represents a critical shift: our descriptions/names may fall short, but it does not follow that all descriptions/names are equally (in)valid, unless you've decided to reject revelation.   
That was one of my criticisms of the work. She attempted, but I don't think she could ever save herself from truly rejecting Revelation or Tradition. I believe she would claim that she's not rejecting it, but rather re-interpreting it "properly" through the lens of women's experience and toward the the end of women happiness and fulfillment. But she has no issue bringing in non-Christian things for the purpose of women happiness/fulfillment, or flat-out dropping things in Christian Revelation (she'd probably say not true revelation., or was distorted by patriarchy and all that) and Tradition that don't lead to that end as she perceives it.

She also tries to bring in Sophiology (not at all like what Fr. Bulgakov tries to do) in order to explain this inter-Trinitarian Feminine. So in her work she'll sometimes say things like "Jesus-Sophia," "Spirit-Sophia," etc
 

Mor Ephrem

Hypatos
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 3, 2002
Messages
36,444
Reaction score
339
Points
83
Age
41
Location
New York!
Website
www.orthodoxchristianity.net
Faith
Mercenary Freudianism
Jurisdiction
Texas Feminist Coptic
Nephi said:
That was one of my criticisms of the work. She attempted, but I don't think she could ever save herself from truly rejecting Revelation or Tradition. I believe she would claim that she's not rejecting it, but rather re-interpreting it "properly" through the lens of women's experience and toward the the end of women happiness and fulfillment. But she has no issue bringing in non-Christian things for the purpose of women happiness/fulfillment, or flat-out dropping things in Christian Revelation (she'd probably say not true revelation., or was distorted by patriarchy and all that) and Tradition that don't lead to that end as she perceives it.

She also tries to bring in Sophiology (not at all like what Fr. Bulgakov tries to do) in order to explain this inter-Trinitarian Feminine. So in her work she'll sometimes say things like "Jesus-Sophia," "Spirit-Sophia," etc
Is it just me, or do these people have no use for Mary? 
 

Deep Roots

Elder
Joined
Dec 16, 2011
Messages
377
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Age
40
Location
Baltimore
Mor Ephrem said:
Deep Roots said:
My priest, in his opening prayer, always begins "Loving and merciful God, Mother and Father of us all..."
I love it.
Why do you love it when your priest, in her and his opening prayer, always begins "Loving and merciful God, Mother and Father of us all..."?  
If I thought you were asking out of genuine curiosity, I might have actually put effort into attempting to explain it.
 

Mor Ephrem

Hypatos
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 3, 2002
Messages
36,444
Reaction score
339
Points
83
Age
41
Location
New York!
Website
www.orthodoxchristianity.net
Faith
Mercenary Freudianism
Jurisdiction
Texas Feminist Coptic
Deep Roots said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Deep Roots said:
My priest, in his opening prayer, always begins "Loving and merciful God, Mother and Father of us all..."
I love it.
Why do you love it when your priest, in her and his opening prayer, always begins "Loving and merciful God, Mother and Father of us all..."?  
If I thought you were asking out of genuine curiosity, I might have actually put effort into attempting to explain it.
I am genuinely curious.  Perhaps you were thrown off by my "her and his opening prayer", thinking that I am making fun of you or your priest, but I'm not: since the priest's "fatherhood" within the community is an icon of God's Fatherhood, I don't see why it's inappropriate to refer to the priest as "she and he", "her and him", or "her and his" if God can be addressed as "Mother and Father". 
 

Nephi

Protokentarchos
Joined
Apr 18, 2011
Messages
4,829
Reaction score
1
Points
38
Age
31
Faith
Deist
Jurisdiction
N/A
Mor Ephrem said:
Nephi said:
That was one of my criticisms of the work. She attempted, but I don't think she could ever save herself from truly rejecting Revelation or Tradition. I believe she would claim that she's not rejecting it, but rather re-interpreting it "properly" through the lens of women's experience and toward the the end of women happiness and fulfillment. But she has no issue bringing in non-Christian things for the purpose of women happiness/fulfillment, or flat-out dropping things in Christian Revelation (she'd probably say not true revelation., or was distorted by patriarchy and all that) and Tradition that don't lead to that end as she perceives it.

She also tries to bring in Sophiology (not at all like what Fr. Bulgakov tries to do) in order to explain this inter-Trinitarian Feminine. So in her work she'll sometimes say things like "Jesus-Sophia," "Spirit-Sophia," etc
Is it just me, or do these people have no use for Mary?  
They take issue with Mary because they would say something like this:

1) The Patriarchal Church has relegated feminine qualities in the Deity to non-deity status in Mary (e.g. early Traditional attributes/names/properties/activities of the Spirit - but also the entire Godhead - being conflated with the person of Mary). This parallels the subjugation of women from a hierarchical standpoint (oh, and all hierarchy is effectively patriarchal and thus wrong by nature).

2) The feminine attributes of Mary emphasized by the Patriarch Church are in fact definition of femininity from a male perspective. Thus these attributes are not truly feminine, and are perpetuated to repress women by enforcing properties or attributes deemed desirable by men. For example, virginity and motherhood, which are simultaneously denied as being the "entirety of womanhood" as patriarchy likes to suggest.

And in relation to #1, they would emphasize that there has to be an equal (at least) feminine in God in order to allow for true women flourishing. It somehow suffocates women - spiritually, emotionally, and psychologically - to not have a relationship with a feminine Deity (or at least a Deity understood as feminine), and especially so to attempt to have a relationship with a masculine Deity (or a Deity understood in masculine terms).
 

Deep Roots

Elder
Joined
Dec 16, 2011
Messages
377
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Age
40
Location
Baltimore
Mor Ephrem said:
Deep Roots said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Deep Roots said:
My priest, in his opening prayer, always begins "Loving and merciful God, Mother and Father of us all..."
I love it.
Why do you love it when your priest, in her and his opening prayer, always begins "Loving and merciful God, Mother and Father of us all..."?  
If I thought you were asking out of genuine curiosity, I might have actually put effort into attempting to explain it.
I am genuinely curious.  Perhaps you were thrown off by my "her and his opening prayer", thinking that I am making fun of you or your priest, but I'm not: since the priest's "fatherhood" within the community is an icon of God's Fatherhood, I don't see why it's inappropriate to refer to the priest as "she and he", "her and him", or "her and his" if God can be addressed as "Mother and Father". 
I can see how that makes sense.

I'm sure the response from my priest would be "well that's one reason why I advocate for the Church's acceptance of women into the priesthood too!"
 

Mor Ephrem

Hypatos
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 3, 2002
Messages
36,444
Reaction score
339
Points
83
Age
41
Location
New York!
Website
www.orthodoxchristianity.net
Faith
Mercenary Freudianism
Jurisdiction
Texas Feminist Coptic
Deep Roots said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Deep Roots said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Deep Roots said:
My priest, in his opening prayer, always begins "Loving and merciful God, Mother and Father of us all..."
I love it.
Why do you love it when your priest, in her and his opening prayer, always begins "Loving and merciful God, Mother and Father of us all..."?  
If I thought you were asking out of genuine curiosity, I might have actually put effort into attempting to explain it.
I am genuinely curious.  Perhaps you were thrown off by my "her and his opening prayer", thinking that I am making fun of you or your priest, but I'm not: since the priest's "fatherhood" within the community is an icon of God's Fatherhood, I don't see why it's inappropriate to refer to the priest as "she and he", "her and him", or "her and his" if God can be addressed as "Mother and Father". 
I can see how that makes sense.

I'm sure the response from my priest would be "well that's one reason why I advocate for the Church's acceptance of women into the priesthood too!"
Sure, but even if the Church accepted women into the priesthood, that wouldn't change the fact that your priest would have to identify as both a "he" and a "she" if his spiritual fatherhood is the icon of God's Fatherhood as he understands it.  I could say the same for a female priest: she should be comfortable identifying as both a "he" and a "she". 
 

Deep Roots

Elder
Joined
Dec 16, 2011
Messages
377
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Age
40
Location
Baltimore
Mor Ephrem said:
Deep Roots said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Deep Roots said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Deep Roots said:
My priest, in his opening prayer, always begins "Loving and merciful God, Mother and Father of us all..."
I love it.
Why do you love it when your priest, in her and his opening prayer, always begins "Loving and merciful God, Mother and Father of us all..."?  
If I thought you were asking out of genuine curiosity, I might have actually put effort into attempting to explain it.
I am genuinely curious.  Perhaps you were thrown off by my "her and his opening prayer", thinking that I am making fun of you or your priest, but I'm not: since the priest's "fatherhood" within the community is an icon of God's Fatherhood, I don't see why it's inappropriate to refer to the priest as "she and he", "her and him", or "her and his" if God can be addressed as "Mother and Father". 
I can see how that makes sense.

I'm sure the response from my priest would be "well that's one reason why I advocate for the Church's acceptance of women into the priesthood too!"
Sure, but even if the Church accepted women into the priesthood, that wouldn't change the fact that your priest would have to identify as both a "he" and a "she" if his spiritual fatherhood is the icon of God's Fatherhood as he understands it.  I could say the same for a female priest: she should be comfortable identifying as both a "he" and a "she". 
Umm no? I'm sure he wouldn't have a problem with the title having a bi-gendered analogy, but for personally referencing him and a her and him...that's just ridiculous

And, knowing my wonderful priest, he'd probably have a couple of "creative" words for such a proposition.
 

Mor Ephrem

Hypatos
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 3, 2002
Messages
36,444
Reaction score
339
Points
83
Age
41
Location
New York!
Website
www.orthodoxchristianity.net
Faith
Mercenary Freudianism
Jurisdiction
Texas Feminist Coptic
Deep Roots said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Sure, but even if the Church accepted women into the priesthood, that wouldn't change the fact that your priest would have to identify as both a "he" and a "she" if his spiritual fatherhood is the icon of God's Fatherhood as he understands it.  I could say the same for a female priest: she should be comfortable identifying as both a "he" and a "she". 
Umm no? I'm sure he wouldn't have a problem with the title having a bi-gendered analogy, but for personally referencing him and a her and him...that's just ridiculous

And, knowing my wonderful priest, he'd probably have a couple of "creative" words for such a proposition.
So it's ridiculous as a personal reference for your priest, but not as a personal reference for God.  How does that work? 
 

Deep Roots

Elder
Joined
Dec 16, 2011
Messages
377
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Age
40
Location
Baltimore
Mor Ephrem said:
Deep Roots said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Sure, but even if the Church accepted women into the priesthood, that wouldn't change the fact that your priest would have to identify as both a "he" and a "she" if his spiritual fatherhood is the icon of God's Fatherhood as he understands it.  I could say the same for a female priest: she should be comfortable identifying as both a "he" and a "she". 
Umm no? I'm sure he wouldn't have a problem with the title having a bi-gendered analogy, but for personally referencing him and a her and him...that's just ridiculous

And, knowing my wonderful priest, he'd probably have a couple of "creative" words for such a proposition.
So it's ridiculous as a personal reference for your priest, but not as a personal reference for God.  How does that work? 
I'm assuming my male priest is biologically male.
 

Papist

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
13,772
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Age
41
Location
Albuquerque, New Mexico
Deep Roots said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Deep Roots said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Sure, but even if the Church accepted women into the priesthood, that wouldn't change the fact that your priest would have to identify as both a "he" and a "she" if his spiritual fatherhood is the icon of God's Fatherhood as he understands it.  I could say the same for a female priest: she should be comfortable identifying as both a "he" and a "she". 
Umm no? I'm sure he wouldn't have a problem with the title having a bi-gendered analogy, but for personally referencing him and a her and him...that's just ridiculous

And, knowing my wonderful priest, he'd probably have a couple of "creative" words for such a proposition.
So it's ridiculous as a personal reference for your priest, but not as a personal reference for God.  How does that work? 
I'm assuming my male priest is biologically male.
The mistaking is thinking that sex is merely biological. There is more to it than that in Christian thought.
 

James2

High Elder
Joined
Jul 9, 2003
Messages
753
Reaction score
1
Points
18
English versions of statements made by Pope John Paul I:

We are the objects of undying love on the part of God. We know: he has always his eyes open on us, even when it seems to be dark. He is our father; even more he is our mother. He does not want to hurt us, He wants only to do good to us, to all of us. If children are ill, they have additional claim to be loved by their mother. And we too, if by chance we are sick with badness, on the wrong track, have yet another claim to be loved by the Lord.
According to tales told by ancient men to attain their political objectives "God is the Father." According to what we really know "God is the Mother."
See http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Pope_John_Paul_I
 

Papist

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
13,772
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Age
41
Location
Albuquerque, New Mexico
James2 said:
English versions of statements made by Pope John Paul I:

We are the objects of undying love on the part of God. We know: he has always his eyes open on us, even when it seems to be dark. He is our father; even more he is our mother. He does not want to hurt us, He wants only to do good to us, to all of us. If children are ill, they have additional claim to be loved by their mother. And we too, if by chance we are sick with badness, on the wrong track, have yet another claim to be loved by the Lord.
According to tales told by ancient men to attain their political objectives "God is the Father." According to what we really know "God is the Mother."

See http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Pope_John_Paul_I
John Paul I is considered a liberal by many. Some conservative minded Catholics believe that the short length of his papacy was act of God protecting the Church. Not saying I agree or disagree. Just sayin...
 

Mor Ephrem

Hypatos
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 3, 2002
Messages
36,444
Reaction score
339
Points
83
Age
41
Location
New York!
Website
www.orthodoxchristianity.net
Faith
Mercenary Freudianism
Jurisdiction
Texas Feminist Coptic
Deep Roots said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Deep Roots said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Sure, but even if the Church accepted women into the priesthood, that wouldn't change the fact that your priest would have to identify as both a "he" and a "she" if his spiritual fatherhood is the icon of God's Fatherhood as he understands it.  I could say the same for a female priest: she should be comfortable identifying as both a "he" and a "she". 
Umm no? I'm sure he wouldn't have a problem with the title having a bi-gendered analogy, but for personally referencing him and a her and him...that's just ridiculous

And, knowing my wonderful priest, he'd probably have a couple of "creative" words for such a proposition.
So it's ridiculous as a personal reference for your priest, but not as a personal reference for God.  How does that work? 
I'm assuming my male priest is biologically male.
What is the relevance of that assumption?
 

stanley123

Protokentarchos
Joined
Nov 23, 2007
Messages
3,817
Reaction score
2
Points
38
Faith
Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction
USA
James2 said:
English versions of statements made by Pope John Paul I:

We are the objects of undying love on the part of God. We know: he has always his eyes open on us, even when it seems to be dark. He is our father; even more he is our mother. He does not want to hurt us, He wants only to do good to us, to all of us. If children are ill, they have additional claim to be loved by their mother. And we too, if by chance we are sick with badness, on the wrong track, have yet another claim to be loved by the Lord.
According to tales told by ancient men to attain their political objectives "God is the Father." According to what we really know "God is the Mother."
See http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Pope_John_Paul_I
So God is now Our Mother? I thought that Mary was Our Mother?  Every day seems to bring another surprise.
 

Deep Roots

Elder
Joined
Dec 16, 2011
Messages
377
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Age
40
Location
Baltimore
Mor Ephrem said:
Deep Roots said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Deep Roots said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Sure, but even if the Church accepted women into the priesthood, that wouldn't change the fact that your priest would have to identify as both a "he" and a "she" if his spiritual fatherhood is the icon of God's Fatherhood as he understands it.  I could say the same for a female priest: she should be comfortable identifying as both a "he" and a "she". 
Umm no? I'm sure he wouldn't have a problem with the title having a bi-gendered analogy, but for personally referencing him and a her and him...that's just ridiculous

And, knowing my wonderful priest, he'd probably have a couple of "creative" words for such a proposition.
So it's ridiculous as a personal reference for your priest, but not as a personal reference for God.  How does that work? 
I'm assuming my male priest is biologically male.
What is the relevance of that assumption?
God is not a biological being.

Humans are.

Given your question, I am assuming you're going to follow up by explaining how biology is not all that significant in whether one if male or female.
 

Deep Roots

Elder
Joined
Dec 16, 2011
Messages
377
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Age
40
Location
Baltimore
For the record, I am not being combative.  I realize I'm probably literally the ONLY person here right now who is sympathetic to both of these issues -- a female priesthood (which I AM an advocate of) and the God gender thing.

I understand the positions against my own.  I do.  I think they're very fully realized and well reasoned.

I just happen to find certain aspects of them unconvincing.  And my reasons will not find sympathy here; I get that.


 

Papist

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
13,772
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Age
41
Location
Albuquerque, New Mexico
Deep Roots said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Deep Roots said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Deep Roots said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Sure, but even if the Church accepted women into the priesthood, that wouldn't change the fact that your priest would have to identify as both a "he" and a "she" if his spiritual fatherhood is the icon of God's Fatherhood as he understands it.  I could say the same for a female priest: she should be comfortable identifying as both a "he" and a "she".  
Umm no? I'm sure he wouldn't have a problem with the title having a bi-gendered analogy, but for personally referencing him and a her and him...that's just ridiculous

And, knowing my wonderful priest, he'd probably have a couple of "creative" words for such a proposition.
So it's ridiculous as a personal reference for your priest, but not as a personal reference for God.  How does that work?  
I'm assuming my male priest is biologically male.
What is the relevance of that assumption?
God is not a biological being.

Humans are.

Given your question, I am assuming you're going to follow up by explaining how biology is not all that significant in whether one if male or female.
You seem to be arguing that because God  is not a body, He can be neither male nor female.

What I would question here is the assumption that masculinity and femininity are merely biological traits.
 

Mor Ephrem

Hypatos
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 3, 2002
Messages
36,444
Reaction score
339
Points
83
Age
41
Location
New York!
Website
www.orthodoxchristianity.net
Faith
Mercenary Freudianism
Jurisdiction
Texas Feminist Coptic
Deep Roots said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Deep Roots said:
I'm assuming my male priest is biologically male.
What is the relevance of that assumption?
God is not a biological being.

Humans are.

Given your question, I am assuming you're going to follow up by explaining how biology is not all that significant in whether one if male or female.
Not exactly. 

If God's not a biological being, then why address him with names with which he has not named himself instead of being content to use the names with which he has named himself? 
 

Deep Roots

Elder
Joined
Dec 16, 2011
Messages
377
Reaction score
0
Points
16
Age
40
Location
Baltimore
Papist said:
Deep Roots said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Deep Roots said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Deep Roots said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Sure, but even if the Church accepted women into the priesthood, that wouldn't change the fact that your priest would have to identify as both a "he" and a "she" if his spiritual fatherhood is the icon of God's Fatherhood as he understands it.  I could say the same for a female priest: she should be comfortable identifying as both a "he" and a "she".  
Umm no? I'm sure he wouldn't have a problem with the title having a bi-gendered analogy, but for personally referencing him and a her and him...that's just ridiculous

And, knowing my wonderful priest, he'd probably have a couple of "creative" words for such a proposition.
So it's ridiculous as a personal reference for your priest, but not as a personal reference for God.  How does that work?  
I'm assuming my male priest is biologically male.
What is the relevance of that assumption?
God is not a biological being.

Humans are.

Given your question, I am assuming you're going to follow up by explaining how biology is not all that significant in whether one if male or female.
You seem to be arguing that because God  is not a body, He can be neither male nor female.

What I would question here is the assumption that masculinity and femininity are merely biological traits.
Okay.  Couple of things:

1) Even if masculinity and femininity (there is no single definition of each of those, by the way) were pre/super biological, why would that necessitate that God must be one or the other?  It reasons that since both traits are found in God's creation (us) then God could possibly be capable of both traits.  (The feminine 'analogy' is sometimes used in scripture -- in reference to God's traits -- what God is LIKE).  If God has displayed both "traits" then doesn't that sort of start to complicate where you're going with this?

2) Do you have proof that masculinity and femininity are anything but biological?  I'm open to hearing any evidence for that.

3) As I mentioned earlier, the very concepts of Masculinity and Femininity are not so easily defined.  
 
Top