Rumors or actual possibility? (Constantinople/Rome Union)

[Menas17]

Given the seemingly close relationship between Patriarch Bartholomew and Pope Francis there has been speculation I have noticed that Patriarch Bartholomew is working on going into union with Rome, even if it is an "unofficial" union. The speculation is that union will happen at the commemoration/anniversary of the Council of Nicea in 2025.

How true is this? And, do you think the majority of the Greek Orthodox world will go along with Patriarch Bartholomew should he choose to go into union with Rome? I have a hard time believing any of the non-Greek Churches would join.

 

[hecma925]

How true is this?

I'll believe it when I see it. If it is profitable, the Langley will make sure it will happen.

 

[Asteriktos]

I don't know. After seeing the Orthodox reactions to the most recent 'Council' and the Ukraine situation, I wouldn't even hazard a guess as to how Orthodox groups would react.

 

[Ainnir]

I'll believe it when I see it. If it is profitable, the Langley will make sure it will happen.

Every time you say Langley, I think of British Columbia and Fr. Michael Gillis from AFR.

 

[J Michael]

Given the seemingly close relationship between Patriarch Bartholomew and Pope Francis there has been speculation I have noticed that Patriarch Bartholomew is working on going into union with Rome, even if it is an "unofficial" union. The speculation is that union will happen at the commemoration/anniversary of the Council of Nicea in 2025.

How true is this? And, do you think the majority of the Greek Orthodox world will go along with Patriarch Bartholomew should he choose to go into union with Rome? I have a hard time believing any of the non-Greek Churches would join.

Two questions: Where have you seen or noticed this speculation about union with Rome? What does "unofficial" union mean, if anything?

 

[Opus118]

My recollection is that the event is a commemoration from prior threads here. Nothing more, nothing less. St. Nicholas Russian Orthodox Cathedral in Nicea France might be a suitable location. Participants can stay at the Hotel de Paris Monte-Carlo, which is only a 30 minute drive away. Disputes can always be resolved in a civilized way with a game of Baccarat.

 

[LizaSymonenko]

We would all rejoice if the RC returned to their Mother Church.

However, there are so many doctrinal issues that would need to be addressed before any of this would ever happen.

I do not see it happening in a mere span of 4 years time. There are great hurdles to overcome... but, who knows? With God all things are possible.

 

[Shanghaiski]

The real question is: will the pope acknowledge the Ecumenical Patriarch as a unique image of God the Father, the first without equals, and the one without whom the Church cannot exist?

 

[Luke]

 

[Luke]

We would all rejoice if the RC returned to their Mother Church.

However, there are so many doctrinal issues that would need to be addressed before any of this would ever happen.

Plus some philosophical issues, which I am trying to grasp.

 

[hecma925]

The real question is: will the pope acknowledge the Ecumenical Patriarch as a unique image of God the Father, the first without equals, and the one without whom the Church cannot exist?

They can flip a coin for it. Either way, ROCOR was right.

 

[SirHandel6]

Given the seemingly close relationship between Patriarch Bartholomew and Pope Francis there has been speculation I have noticed that Patriarch Bartholomew is working on going into union with Rome, even if it is an "unofficial" union. The speculation is that union will happen at the commemoration/anniversary of the Council of Nicea in 2025.

How true is this? And, do you think the majority of the Greek Orthodox world will go along with Patriarch Bartholomew should he choose to go into union with Rome? I have a hard time believing any of the non-Greek Churches would join.

I think this would be a worst-case scenario people are thinking out in their head. It may or may not happen, who knows. The thing is if he was to do that there would be such a backlash that it would basically be him, a few bishops, and people ignorant of the situation who would go along with it. I think even most Ukrainians wouldn't go along with it as that would basically mean they are uniting with Uniates, who are technically a third faction in the conflict in Ukraine. So in my opinion what is the most realistic situation is they'll probably do service together, (a personal theory I have is I think the pope may remove the filioque or make it optional but I haven't heard that from anyone anywhere), they probably will do all the ecumenist talks and things like that, they transfer relics and religious items and the like, and that will be the meeting. Yet, there is a lot of other things happening that year such as the western and eastern Pascha/Easter aligning and Romania is gonna canonize a lot of new people. So either way that will likely be a big year for us, either positive or negative.

 

[Asteriktos]

I think this would be a worst-case scenario people are thinking out in their head.

Or, at least for the first part, the best case scenario hopes in the minds of Roman Catholics who have insisted for years that reunion is just around the corner

 

[PorphyriosK]

A Vatican commision has already admitted that the papacy held no jurisdiction over the East in the 1st millennium.

The way forward after the Catholic-Orthodox agreement on primacy and synodality

www.catholicworldreport.com

 

[Tzimis]

I don't see a need for communion with rome in a relatively peaceful political climate and under one political system, like the EU.
They'll just go on catering to there own flocks.

I think there is a better chance of Turkey joining the EU IMO.

 

[Alpo2]

A Vatican commision has already admitted that the papacy held no jurisdiction over the East in the 1st millennium.

The way forward after the Catholic-Orthodox agreement on primacy and synodality

www.catholicworldreport.com

There's still Vatican I and the like and there's no way they can re-interpreted as easily as the article does.

 

[Nathanael]

lol

 

[Menas17]

A Vatican commision has already admitted that the papacy held no jurisdiction over the East in the 1st millennium.

The way forward after the Catholic-Orthodox agreement on primacy and synodality

www.catholicworldreport.com

I just don't see how the Vatican can backtrack on infallibility, that's literally what Roman catholicism hinges on. And they can't do a "well the pope is infallible but only within the Latin Rite" because that also is not Orthodox ecclesiology

 

[melkite]

Given the seemingly close relationship between Patriarch Bartholomew and Pope Francis there has been speculation I have noticed that Patriarch Bartholomew is working on going into union with Rome, even if it is an "unofficial" union. The speculation is that union will happen at the commemoration/anniversary of the Council of Nicea in 2025.

How true is this? And, do you think the majority of the Greek Orthodox world will go along with Patriarch Bartholomew should he choose to go into union with Rome? I have a hard time believing any of the non-Greek Churches would join.

I think it's very unlikely, but I could also see portions of Antioch, Alexandria and Jerusalem joining Constantinople, if this were to happen. Perhaps even some Romanians. I agree that the Slavic churches are the most unlikely, as well as Georgia.

 

[biro]

As much as I might wish for it, no, I don't think it's going to happen.

 

[Saxon]

I think it's very unlikely, but I could also see portions of Antioch, Alexandria and Jerusalem joining Constantinople, if this were to happen. Perhaps even some Romanians. I agree that the Slavic churches are the most unlikely, as well as Georgia.

If it happens, and should the current EP and Pope hold on until the expedient time then it’s certainly possible that it will, you’ll likely see the Hellenic patriarchates get in line and go along with it as they’ve demonstrated they have no autonomy and made open overtures to “blood” connections (see the Ukrainian issue). The flip side is they’ll probably lose the Athonite monasteries over it.

 

[Katechon]

It is possible that it will happen. They propably will try to establish the fake narrative of "the Great Schism having been mended" by the bishop in Istanbul going into union with the Vatican. I doubt that a lot of local churches will follow the Phanar's lead. Nonetheless it will be a pretext for secular authorities to crack down on Canonical Orthodoxy as "Russian agents" and unleash persecution upon it throughout the world while avoiding to appear religiously intolerant.

 

[Xavier]

I'd be very happy if Re-Union happens. Only I hope it will include Russia and the Oriental Churches as well. The world needs the witness of a United Christendom now more than ever. Lyons II and Florence were good attempts imo, though ultimately unsuccessful. Nicaea III could be third time lucky. Let's pray and wait and see what happens.

 

[Menas17]

I think it's very unlikely, but I could also see portions of Antioch, Alexandria and Jerusalem joining Constantinople..

Maybe you're seeing something that I don't but if there were any in those patriuarchates that would go along then they would be a very tiny minority.

• Antioch: Not a chance, they didn't attend the council in Crete for a reason. Their relationship with Constantinople is strenuous. Plus there is is no major Greek population in that patriarchate so they can't pull the "muh Greek" card.
• Alexandria: Not a chance outside of the small Greek population in Egypt, the ethnic Sub-Saharan Africans are not interested even in the recognition of the Ukrainian schismatics by the Patriarch (see their rebuke of him and petitioning the Church of Russia)
• Jerusalem: Same as Antioch. Other than the patriarch and some of the bishops, there are no ethnic Greeks in that patriarchate

Last but not least, the sheer Orthodoxy of the people. There are no large groups of Orthodox pining for union with Rome. Don't let the doings of the patriarchs and bishops lead you to believe those in the patriarchates would accept union. It will be Florence part II

 

[recent convert]

Whether I was Orthodox or Catholic, I would dread any alleged reunion in the current climate. For centuries leaderships often treated people outside their folds like dirt now they sell out their own flocks & treat them like dirt ( “dirt” being an acceptable description for something more nauseating),

 

[melkite]

Maybe you're seeing something that I don't but if there were any in those patriuarchates that would go along then they would be a very tiny minority.

• Antioch: Not a chance, they didn't attend the council in Crete for a reason. Their relationship with Constantinople is strenuous. Plus there is is no major Greek population in that patriarchate so they can't pull the "muh Greek" card.
• Alexandria: Not a chance outside of the small Greek population in Egypt, the ethnic Sub-Saharan Africans are not interested even in the recognition of the Ukrainian schismatics by the Patriarch (see their rebuke of him and petitioning the Church of Russia)
• Jerusalem: Same as Antioch. Other than the patriarch and some of the bishops, there are no ethnic Greeks in that patriarchate

Last but not least, the sheer Orthodoxy of the people. There are no large groups of Orthodox pining for union with Rome. Don't let the doings of the patriarchs and bishops lead you to believe those in the patriarchates would accept union. It will be Florence part II

I was thinking primarily of the hierarchy, but I do think a portion of the laity would go along with it. The Arabic populations of the Antioch and Jerusalem patriarchates have a lot of mixed marriages and families already where some are Orthodox and some are Melkite Catholics. I think it would be easier for them to go along with a reunion. It may still be a small minority, though. I don't know the numbers of how many that situation applies to. Possibly even more so with Jerusalem, since the Palestinian vicariate parishes joined with the Greek Archdiocese in North America rather than Antioch. I'm speculating on the significance of that one, but it seems that between Constantinople and Antioch, Jerusalem may be more inclined to side with Constantinople. Well, duh, of course they are. Especially if Antioch sides with Moscow. Perhaps Jerusalem would side with Moscow to spite Antioch if Antioch goes with Constantinople.

 

[Katechon]

I was thinking primarily of the hierarchy, but I do think a portion of the laity would go along with it. The Arabic populations of the Antioch and Jerusalem patriarchates have a lot of mixed marriages and families already where some are Orthodox and some are Melkite Catholics. I think it would be easier for them to go along with a reunion. It may still be a small minority, though. I don't know the numbers of how many that situation applies to. Possibly even more so with Jerusalem, since the Palestinian vicariate parishes joined with the Greek Archdiocese in North America rather than Antioch. I'm speculating on the significance of that one, but it seems that between Constantinople and Antioch, Jerusalem may be more inclined to side with Constantinople. Well, duh, of course they are. Especially if Antioch sides with Moscow. Perhaps Jerusalem would side with Moscow to spite Antioch if Antioch goes with Constantinople.

The Patriarchate of Jerusalem is largely financed by Russians and has taken a strong stance of opposition against Patriarch Bartholomews uncanonical shenanigans in the Ukraine. Both Patriarchates are pretty consistently pro-Moscow despite them being at odds with each other. I would imagine if Patriarch Bartholomew goes into Schism pretty much his own synod, parts of the Greek church, parts of the Cypriot church and possibly the administration of the Patriarchate of Alexandria following him. We should all pray and hope that this won't happen though, and that he won't be able to pull more churches into it.

 

[Alpo2]

Let's pray and wait and see what happens.

You guys should start disagreeing with your Pope more so that we could see some progress. TLM is a good start.

 

[Averoff]

Given the seemingly close relationship between Patriarch Bartholomew and Pope Francis there has been speculation I have noticed that Patriarch Bartholomew is working on going into union with Rome, even if it is an "unofficial" union. The speculation is that union will happen at the commemoration/anniversary of the Council of Nicea in 2025.

How true is this? And, do you think the majority of the Greek Orthodox world will go along with Patriarch Bartholomew should he choose to go into union with Rome? I have a hard time believing any of the non-Greek Churches would join.

That is the quickest way to make the Ecumenical Patriarch and non-factor in Orthodox Church affairs. He already heads the Constantinople Church which has only a handful of members. His title as the 'First Among Equals' is historical, but doesn't reflect the almost complete elimination of the congregation in Turkey. He presides over an almost non-existent congregation.

Don't get me wrong, I have great respect for the institution of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and it's historic and spiritual significance for the Orthodox Church. But his power is derived from the consent of the lay people as well as Priesthood, Monasteries and Orthodox Church hierarchy. If he were to make a move to become closer to Rome, I can see many Orthodox Christians turning their back on Constantinople. Besides, our Church has historically used consensus to craft Church policy-the Patriarch is not a Pope and he has never held that kind of power. We do things by Counsel.

 

[Menas17]

That is the quickest way to make the Ecumenical Patriarch and non-factor in Orthodox Church affairs. He already heads the Constantinople Church which has only a handful of members. His title as the 'First Among Equals' is historical, but doesn't reflect the almost complete elimination of the congregation in Turkey. He presides over an almost non-existent congregation.

Don't get me wrong, I have great respect for the institution of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and it's historic and spiritual significance for the Orthodox Church. But his power is derived from the consent of the lay people as well as Priesthood, Monasteries and Orthodox Church hierarchy. If he were to make a move to become closer to Rome, I can see many Orthodox Christians turning their back on Constantinople. Besides, our Church has historically used consensus to craft Church policy-the Patriarch is not a Pope and he has never held that kind of power. We do things by Counsel.

Agreed with all of this. Also, it is my understanding that Patriarch Bartholomew is largely unpopular in Greece, especially among lay people, but, I would also imagine he is equally unpopular among the clergy (not sure about the bishops) and I have seen that he is not commemorated in many places on Mt. Athos.

Likewise, if he ever made a power play for Rome, you can bet that he would lose the entirety of the Elder Ephraim monasteries in America and I would imagine a good portion of GOARCH parishes, at least outside of the ethnic Greek parishes in the Northeast and Chicago. I get the impression that many, many people in the GOA (a lot of clergy included) are already extremely tired of Archbishop Elpidophoros and his shenanigans, not to mention the St. Nicholas "shrine" money debacle, that it would not take very much to push them over the edge.

But, that is just my take, but, we shall see what goes on come August when he visits Ukraine. If he formally excommunicates Metropolitan Onuphry like some have suspected he will, then all bets are off.

 

[Katechon]

But, that is just my take, but, we shall see what goes on come August when he visits Ukraine. If he formally excommunicates Metropolitan Onuphry like some have suspected he will, then all bets are off.

That would be the single most stupid thing he could do. It's not unrealistic that he will do it though.

 

[Samn!]

I was thinking primarily of the hierarchy, but I do think a portion of the laity would go along with it. The Arabic populations of the Antioch and Jerusalem patriarchates have a lot of mixed marriages and families already where some are Orthodox and some are Melkite Catholics. I think it would be easier for them to go along with a reunion. It may still be a small minority, though.

On the ground sympathy for Melkite Catholics doesn't obviously translate into sympathy for Rome. And relations between Antioch and the Melkite Catholics is not was it was, say, in the mid-90s, as the leadership of the latter has been substantially Latinized in their mentality and education post-Zoghby.

Possibly even more so with Jerusalem, since the Palestinian vicariate parishes joined with the Greek Archdiocese in North America rather than Antioch.

Those parishes have a complicated backstory and are a small minority of the Palestinians in North America. Elsewhere, Palestinians always go under Antioch, as in Chile where Orthodoxy is overwhelmingly Palestinian and more or less entirely under Antioch.

 

[Menas17]

That would be the single most stupid thing he could do. It's not unrealistic that he will do it though.

Would not put it past him, he's done this much why not take it further. When the State Department is done with him they'll just toss him aside

 

[Katechon]

Would not put it past him, he's done this much why not take it further. When the State Department is done with him they'll just toss him aside

He will propably have a fitting end as the Vatican's minister of Indian affairs. Although there are propably more fitting ends to be imagined.

 

[Menas17]

He will propably have a fitting end as the Vatican's minister of Indian affairs. Although there are propably more fitting ends to be imagined.

It is really sad when you think about it and I still pray for him, the Church Fathers do not have good things to say about the makers of schism and I truly pray to God that Pat. Bartholomew repents before his repose.

The other ethnic Greek hierarchs should take not as well, especially Patriarch Theodoros. He risks losing huge chunks of his patriarchate to the Church of Russia, African priests have already petitioned Moscow to accept them and so far Moscow has declined. The same can be said about the Patriarchate of Constantinople as Russia has threatened to set up parallel parishes in Turkey, this would make sense since the Russian population of Turkey outnumbers the Greeks by +30,000 at minimum.

This could all very well change after the Russian Synod meets in November.

 

[Katechon]

It is really sad when you think about it and I still pray for him, the Church Fathers do not have good things to say about the makers of schism and I truly pray to God that Pat. Bartholomew repents before his repose.

The other ethnic Greek hierarchs should take not as well, especially Patriarch Theodoros. He risks losing huge chunks of his patriarchate to the Church of Russia, African priests have already petitioned Moscow to accept them and so far Moscow has declined. The same can be said about the Patriarchate of Constantinople as Russia has threatened to set up parallel parishes in Turkey, this would make sense since the Russian population of Turkey outnumbers the Greeks by +30,000 at minimum.

This could all very well change after the Russian Synod meets in November.

It is a scandal that the Patriarchate of Constantinople hasn't begun doing actual missionary work in Turkey, even though the interest and the inquirers are there.

 

[Menas17]

It is a scandal that the Patriarchate of Constantinople hasn't begun doing actual missionary work in Turkey, even though the interest and the inquirers are there.

Yep, which is why the Church of Russia, should it decide to create parallel parishes, is in a position to bring many Turkish converts into Orthodoxy. They also have the political clout over Turkey to not be bothered, which is something that Pat. Bartholomew does not have.

Honestly, if Russia really, really wanted to stick it to Constantinople then they could make the case for setting up a parallel Patriarch of Constantinople in rival to Pat. Bartholomew, it's been done in history when one See becomes heretical. Like mentioned above, Russia has the political clout and the Russia population within Turkey to do so.

Will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

 

[Tzimis]

Russia isn't its own See though. It was brought into existence from the mother church. They would basically be excommunicating themselves.

 

[Katechon]

Russia isn't its own See though. It was brought into existence from the mother church. They would basically be excommunicating themselves.

Stop trolling

 

[Katechon]

Yep, which is why the Church of Russia, should it decide to create parallel parishes, is in a position to bring many Turkish converts into Orthodoxy. They also have the political clout over Turkey to not be bothered, which is something that Pat. Bartholomew does not have.

Honestly, if Russia really, really wanted to stick it to Constantinople then they could make the case for setting up a parallel Patriarch of Constantinople in rival to Pat. Bartholomew, it's been done in history when one See becomes heretical. Like mentioned above, Russia has the political clout and the Russia population within Turkey to do so.

Will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

It would be pretty unwise to do that before Patriarch Bartholomew formally enters schism by going into union with the Vatican. I guess history will provide an answer to the problems we are now facing.