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Rumors or actual possibility? (Constantinople/Rome Union)

Tzimis

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Stop trolling :rolleyes:
Stating the canonical repercussions of that action isn't trolling. Its stating a fact that is obviously not to your liking. ;)
 

Katechon

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Stating the canonical repercussions of that action isn't trolling. Its stating a fact that is obviously not to your liking. ;)
Dude, stop. Seriously :rolleyes:
 

Tzimis

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Agreed with all of this. Also, it is my understanding that Patriarch Bartholomew is largely unpopular in Greece, especially among lay people, but, I would also imagine he is equally unpopular among the clergy (not sure about the bishops) and I have seen that he is not commemorated in many places on Mt. Athos.

Likewise, if he ever made a power play for Rome, you can bet that he would lose the entirety of the Elder Ephraim monasteries in America and I would imagine a good portion of GOARCH parishes, at least outside of the ethnic Greek parishes in the Northeast and Chicago. I get the impression that many, many people in the GOA (a lot of clergy included) are already extremely tired of Archbishop Elpidophoros and his shenanigans, not to mention the St. Nicholas "shrine" money debacle, that it would not take very much to push them over the edge.

But, that is just my take, but, we shall see what goes on come August when he visits Ukraine. If he formally excommunicates Metropolitan Onuphry like some have suspected he will, then all bets are off.
Didn't the Metropolitan just die a few days ago?
 

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Tzimis

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Ainnir

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That's creepy.
 

rakovsky

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If we take the view that the OCU is schismatic, then does this create a danger for apostolic succession because the EP, Cyprus, and Alexandria recognize it? The possible risk that I see is that an OCU bishop could transfer to one of those jurisdictions, and then later on be considered an EP bishop, consecrating EP bishops and priests. And then people could mistakenly see that line of EP bishops priests as having apostolic succession.

I thought of this when reading this title:

The article quotes the Russian synod as deciding:


  1. Considering the canonical defectiveness of the consecration of Metropolitan Andreas of Saranta Ekklisies, to state with regret that it will be impossible to concelebrate with him if, with God’s help, Eucharistic communion with the Patriarchate of Constantinople will be restored. The same applies to the clergy whom the given metropolitan may eventually ordain.

But is the Synod going to be spending decades keeping track of which OCU bishops consecrate EP bishops and priests?
 

Menas17

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If we take the view that the OCU is schismatic, then does this create a danger for apostolic succession because the EP, Cyprus, and Alexandria recognize it? The possible risk that I see is that an OCU bishop could transfer to one of those jurisdictions, and then later on be considered an EP bishop, consecrating EP bishops and priests. And then people could mistakenly see that line of EP bishops priests as having apostolic succession.

I thought of this when reading this title:

The article quotes the Russian synod as deciding:


  1. Considering the canonical defectiveness of the consecration of Metropolitan Andreas of Saranta Ekklisies, to state with regret that it will be impossible to concelebrate with him if, with God’s help, Eucharistic communion with the Patriarchate of Constantinople will be restored. The same applies to the clergy whom the given metropolitan may eventually ordain.

But is the Synod going to be spending decades keeping track of which OCU bishops consecrate EP bishops and priests?
Thats a legit problem, and given the already tenuous direction the EP is headed, it's not out of the realm of possibility that the patriarchate could eventually lose sacramental grace
 

RaphaCam

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If we take the view that the OCU is schismatic, then does this create a danger for apostolic succession because the EP, Cyprus, and Alexandria recognize it? The possible risk that I see is that an OCU bishop could transfer to one of those jurisdictions, and then later on be considered an EP bishop, consecrating EP bishops and priests. And then people could mistakenly see that line of EP bishops priests as having apostolic succession.
Messier messes have been messed up in the history of the Orthodox Church, and it all ended up just fine.
 

ialmisry

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I was thinking primarily of the hierarchy, but I do think a portion of the laity would go along with it. The Arabic populations of the Antioch and Jerusalem patriarchates have a lot of mixed marriages and families already where some are Orthodox and some are Melkite Catholics. I think it would be easier for them to go along with a reunion.
Most consider it a pox-on-both-their-houses, inter-Roman quarrel, in which Antioch has no stake. Most would be quite happy to stay with Antioch and Orthodoxy.
It may still be a small minority, though. I don't know the numbers of how many that situation applies to. Possibly even more so with Jerusalem, since the Palestinian vicariate parishes joined with the Greek Archdiocese in North America rather than Antioch.
It started among converts quarreling with the Antiochian hierarchy, and going to Jerusalem as an "out"-until the Phanar forced the issue on Jerusalem (in exchange for Qatar et alia?)
I'm speculating on the significance of that one, but it seems that between Constantinople and Antioch, Jerusalem may be more inclined to side with Constantinople. Well, duh, of course they are. Especially if Antioch sides with Moscow. Perhaps Jerusalem would side with Moscow to spite Antioch if Antioch goes with Constantinople.
So far Jerusalem has joined Antioch in sticking with Orthodoxy and standing with Moscow.
 

ialmisry

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Would not put it past him, he's done this much why not take it further. When the State Department is done with him they'll just toss him aside
Correct on the wrongs of all points.
 

ialmisry

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It is a scandal that the Patriarchate of Constantinople hasn't begun doing actual missionary work in Turkey, even though the interest and the inquirers are there.
To be fair, the Turkocratia lives on, and imposes a host of restrictions on Constantinople's actions. Just him celebrating Divine Liturgy openly in former Church sites is missionary in the circumstances. Those of us who are freer can do more.
 

ialmisry

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Russia isn't its own See though. It was brought into existence from the mother church. They would basically be excommunicating themselves.
Russia isn't its own See-Moscow firmly derives its existence from the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Holy Mother of Orthodoxy.

The Orthodox Church's wayward daughter the Phanar is excommunicating herself.
 

Tzimis

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Thats a legit problem, and given the already tenuous direction the EP is headed, it's not out of the realm of possibility that the patriarchate could eventually lose sacramental grace
Russia isn't its own See-Moscow firmly derives its existence from the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Holy Mother of Orthodoxy.

The Orthodox Church's wayward daughter the Phanar is excommunicating herself.
The word "Orthodoxy" doesn't exist in a vacuum, It's Orthodox through succession.
 

LizaSymonenko

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We would rejoice. However, it wouldn't be that. It would be a part of the Mother Church breaking off and joining the schism and heresy of a wayward daughter. Like this:

The above is an ancient wrong finally being set right. Glory be to God!!!!
 

Ainnir

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Welcome to the internet. ☺
 

Tzimis

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"The Church" is not the bishop in Istanbul and his synod. We are not Papists.
Following your reasoning, than the Ukranian people also deserve a leadership that is free from the Russian influence. That is precisely why the EP is allowing them too govern there own flock.
 

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Following your reasoning, than the Ukranian people also deserve a leadership that is free from the Russian influence. That is precisely why the EP is allowing them too govern there own flock.
That's not my reasoning at all. If you assert that hell prevailed against the church by the Patriarch of Constantinople becoming apostate, then hell prevailed against it when Nestorius became Patriarch of Constantinople in the fifth century. While the fact of the matter is that EVERY see can be grafted out as was the See of Old Rome and will be the See of New Rome if it persists in schism and heresy.
 

Tzimis

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That's not my reasoning at all. If you assert that hell prevailed against the church by the Patriarch of Constantinople becoming apostate, then hell prevailed against it when Nestorius became Patriarch of Constantinople in the fifth century. While the fact of the matter is that EVERY see can be grafted out as was the See of Old Rome and will be the See of New Rome if it persists in schism and heresy.
Your definition of heresy is political and groundless on the merits of faith. The EP has the canonical power to grant a tomos and its been proven countless times throughout history. all of a sudden it goes counter to your political stance and you're trying to assert that he is a heretic. Maybe you should search your own conscious before trying to assert those claims.
 

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Your definition of heresy is political and groundless on the merits of faith. The EP has the canonical power to grant a tomos and its been proven countless times throughout history. all of a sudden it goes counter to your political stance and you're trying to assert that he is a heretic. Maybe you should search your own conscious before trying to assert those claims.
You will be grafted out if you persist in heresy and schism. Mark my words.
 

Tzimis

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You will be grafted out if you persist in heresy and schism. Mark my words.
If we are grafted out then so are you. Your existence is assured because of thread that keeps you whole.
 

Katechon

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If we are grafted out then so are you. Your existence is assured because of thread that keeps you whole.
:ROFLMAO: You're not by chance an apologist of the Vatican, are you? Well you will be one in due time.
 

Tzimis

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:ROFLMAO: You're not by chance an apologist of the Vatican, are you? Well you will be one in due time.
The church as an institution can't fail. if it does then christianity doesn't exist. The Vatican is the establishment of the holy Roman church. Its not the true visible church started by st. Constantine.
 

biro

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I know I am being nosy, but I must ask: my parents are RCC. May I still pray for them?
 

Tzimis

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I know I am being nosy, but I must ask: my parents are RCC. May I still pray for them?
Of course. Why wouldn't you? I never said the people in RCC are graceless. I personally don't think so. The church is in error but, that doesn't mean all of there members are without grace. it just means there theology is partially wrong.
 

Tzimis

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I sometimes wonder if that's just an elaborate troll account.
If you are EO. No matter how much it pains you to admit, you're a Greek Catholic.
 

biro

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Of course. Why wouldn't you? I never said the people in RCC are graceless. I personally don't think so. The church is in error but, that doesn't mean all of there members are without grace. it just means there theology is partially wrong.
Thank you.
 
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