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Rumors or actual possibility? (Constantinople/Rome Union)

ialmisry

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Following your reasoning, than the Ukranian people also deserve a leadership that is free from the Russian influence. That is precisely why the EP is allowing them too govern there own flock.
LOL.
No, it is not. The Ucrainicans and misguided Ukrainians of good will would like to think so, but they are being used as useful idiots for Phanariot ultramarism.

The Orthodox deserve leadership that is free from Phanariot arrogated "authority."
 

ialmisry

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Your definition of heresy is political and groundless on the merits of faith. The EP has the canonical power to grant a tomos and its been proven countless times throughout history. all of a sudden it goes counter to your political stance and you're trying to assert that he is a heretic. Maybe you should search your own conscious before trying to assert those claims.
Rather, you should search the history of the canonical praxis of the Orthodox Church before you assErt yours.
 

ialmisry

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Of course. Why wouldn't you? I never said the people in RCC are graceless. I personally don't think so. The church is in error but, that doesn't mean all of there members are without grace. it just means there theology is partially wrong.
the part you want to adopt and impose on the Orthodox Church.
 

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Ahhhh chaos. But to add to the dumpster fire. In my opinion, although Ukraine could've had either autocephaly or potentially a patriarchate, I don't like the way it happened, as yes it is territory under the Russian Patriarch and there are very political reasons for how it happened, plus the current Ukraine Patriarch historically hasn't had a good record. The big reason for the existence of leaders of orthodox churches was built on a relationship between government and church. Some governments don't like being under governments they perceive as a threat, and Ukraine and Russia are an example of this.

Ukraine views Russia as a threat to their new government, they ally with Nato. Under this protection make their own church with the help of the EP, who also gets protection from Nato against Turkey. Russia sees this as causing them to lose their power in Eastern Europe, so Russia and the Russian Church oppose this. Simple as that. The same thing happened with Montenegro and Macedonia with Serbia in post-Yugoslavia. Very unfortunate truths, but Eastern and Southern Europe now have so many governments, situations like this are the effects.
 

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Ahhhh chaos. But to add to the dumpster fire. In my opinion, although Ukraine could've had either autocephaly or potentially a patriarchate, I don't like the way it happened, as yes it is territory under the Russian Patriarch and there are very political reasons for how it happened, plus the current Ukraine Patriarch historically hasn't had a good record. The big reason for the existence of leaders of orthodox churches was built on a relationship between government and church. Some governments don't like being under governments they perceive as a threat, and Ukraine and Russia are an example of this.

Ukraine views Russia as a threat to their new government, they ally with Nato. Under this protection make their own church with the help of the EP, who also gets protection from Nato against Turkey. Russia sees this as causing them to lose their power in Eastern Europe, so Russia and the Russian Church oppose this. Simple as that. The same thing happened with Montenegro and Macedonia with Serbia in post-Yugoslavia. Very unfortunate truths, but Eastern and Southern Europe now have so many governments, situations like this are the effects.
Also, the EP hinting that they'll revisit the question of autocephaly for Macedonia and Montenegro simply to stick it to the Serbs for siding with the MP over Ukraine. Nasty, vindictive threats that bring a Cold War mentality to Orthodoxy.
 

Tzimis

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LOL.
No, it is not. The Ucrainicans and misguided Ukrainians of good will would like to think so, but they are being used as useful idiots for Phanariot ultramarism.

The Orthodox deserve leadership that is free from Phanariot arrogated "authority."
Then, they could become Protestants.
 

Tzimis

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Rather, you should search the history of the canonical praxis of the Orthodox Church before you assErt yours.
It was adopted once authoritarianism went out the door.
 

Tzimis

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the part you want to adopt and impose on the Orthodox Church.
The EP is without an emperor, so in absence of one adjustments are made.
 

ialmisry

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Then, they could become Protestants.
The Ucrainicans already have. The Phanar's fake authorization of that makes quite a heretical mess of papalism and Protestantism the Orthodox should cast out the sooner the better.
 

ialmisry

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You mean Barbarians who adopted the hellenic culture.
No, St. John Chrysostom descended from Hellas, but as a Roman, Hellenic culture meant pagan culture to him.

As for "barbarians" who did NOT adopt "Hellenic culture," I mean these:

 

ialmisry

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It was adopted once authoritarianism went out the door.
No, Orthodox canonical praxis always stood as the rule. As Old Rome found out, authoritarianism could only be adopted by its pontiff only once he walked out the doors of Orthodoxy.
 

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Ucrainicans
When you learn to show respect to a nation of individuals, and refer to them correctly, perhaps then I might actually read and consider your posts... as for now you just seem like an unhappy little boy.
 

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When you learn to show respect to a nation of individuals, and refer to them correctly, perhaps then I might actually read and consider your posts... as for now you just seem like an unhappy little boy.
In fairness, Isa is referring to a minor nationalist sect, sadly backed by the Phanar, not to an entire nation.
 

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A few questions from this thread - looking to understand, not criticize, as I'm unfamiliar with this subject.

1. Who (as in what "level" of church) can issue, for lack of a better word, a tome of autocephaly/autonomy? And can that church do it unilaterally or does it have to

2. how is the situation with the Ukrainian Orthodox Church different from that of, say, the Bulgarian Exarchate from like 1872 to 1945?
(note: all I know about that situation is what I know from wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_Exarchate )

And finally....

In fairness, Isa is referring to a minor nationalist sect, sadly backed by the Phanar, not to an entire nation.
Who are these "Ucrainicans"? (a quick google search yielded nothing)


As far as the OP; IMO the idea of union in less than 5 years is ludicrous - there's no way anyone's really ready for this, for reasons I've given in my past few posts. My personal guess is that it's unfounded rumor, though I've no direct knowledge of what's going on in either Rome's or Constantinople's curia.
 

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1. Who (as in what "level" of church) can issue, for lack of a better word, a tome of autocephaly/autonomy? And can that church do it unilaterally or does it have to
So prior to the current controversy, there were two positions: the Ecumenical Patriarchate held that the Church as a whole, either in council or in comparable mechanisms, grants autocephaly and it can't be done unilaterally. See, for example, here and here. Russia, on the other hand, held that a mother church (not in the sense of 'the church that historically evangelized an area', but rather in the more precise canonical sense of the church on whose holy synod a given group of bishops sit) could grant autocephaly more or less unilaterally, pending wider recognition, as was the case with the OCA. They both agreed, in preparation for the 2016 Council of Crete, to a document that made it a decision for the entire Church, coordinated by both the Patriarchate of Constantinople and the mother church. They disagreed, however, about the manner in which a tomos of autocephaly should be signed: Constantinople wanted its signature at the top alone, while Moscow insisted that the signature of Constantinople and the mother church be side by side. This sounds petty, but Constantinople has a history of trying to use interpretations of symbolic gestures to make substantial ecclesiological claims, so most of the other churches are careful about this sort of thing now. In the event, the document was scrapped due to lack of agreement well before it was announced that four churches would not participate at Crete. Constantinople, however, used this lack of agreement as a chance to drastically revise its own understanding of how autocephaly should be granted.

2. how is the situation with the Ukrainian Orthodox Church different from that of, say, the Bulgarian Exarchate from like 1872 to 1945?
In the case of Bulgaria, the Bulgarian bishops who unilaterally proclaimed their own autocephaly had been canonical bishops of the Patriarchate of Constantinople, which condemned them in a council where the patriarchs of Alexandria and Antioch also agreed (and that of Jerusalem, oddly, did not). This condemnation was not, however universally recognized, and the Bulgarians received tacit support from Russia and the Romanians. In the case of the current 'autocephalous' Orthodox Church of Ukraine, there are three sources of bishops: 1) those who had been part of the Kiev Patriarchate, whose leadership was anathematized and excommunicated by Moscow--- an act, crucially, recognized by the Patriarchate of Constantinople: see here and here. 2) the so-called Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, whose bishops have extremely dubious apostolic succession. 3) Two bishops, of which one was an auxiliary, from the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church. So, there are two major differences between the Bulgarian and Ukrainian situations: 1) While in Bulgaria all the bishops were originally canonical and only a tiny minority rejected autocephaly to stay with Constantinople, in Ukraine the vast majority of canonical bishops rejected autocephally granted by a third-party church. 2) The existence of the bishops in the new Ukrainian church whose very ordinations are of dubious validity. Additionally, it is difficult to understand how the Patriarchate of Constantinople can renege on having twice recognized Moscow's "exclusive competence" to excommunicate and anathematize Filaret, the leader of the Kiev Patriarchate.

Who are these "Ucrainicans"?
This is just Isa's joking way to refer to the Orthodox Church of Ukraine, implying that they are analogous to Anglicans as a nationalistically-motivated movement.
 

ialmisry

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In fairness, Isa is referring to a minor nationalist sect, sadly backed by the Phanar, not to an entire nation.
Exactly, except I would say "being used" by the Phanar. To the detriment of an entire nation not belonging to it.
 

LizaSymonenko

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Exactly, except I would say "being used" by the Phanar. To the detriment of an entire nation not belonging to it.
To date, the OCU is a success. The churches are filled. How are the churches you visit? I know mine is hardly what I would call "full"... so, I find it a blessing for the faithful in Ukraine, that they can avail of a parish that uses the language of the people, and prays for their wellbeing.

If you have an issue with the OCU... do you also have an issue with the OCA? Just curious.
 

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And, while the OCA is many things to many people, it's not really in any sense a nationalist project, nor is it a campaign stunt in a choclatier's losing election campaign.
 

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And, while the OCA is many things to many people, it's not really in any sense a nationalist project, nor is it a campaign stunt in a choclatier's losing election campaign.
Plus it wasn't started as an ecclesiastical Frankenstein project by regularizing universally reknown schismatics in the canonical territory of another Patrarchate.
 

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The OCA is essentially the antithesis of the OCU - a jurisdiction that rejects cultural, ethnic, and national cleavages in worship, whereas the OCU is a shameless geopolitical/nationalist vanity project.
 

ialmisry

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To date, the OCU is a success. The churches are filled.
So are the mega churches and the mosques. The question is WHOSE success they represent. "Broad the road and wide the gate...."

How are the churches you visit?
Pretty full, but fuller and more is always nicer. Of course, they do not depend on seizing Churches and the State suppressing rivals for that.

I know mine is hardly what I would call "full"... so, I find it a blessing for the faithful in Ukraine, that they can avail of a parish that uses the language of the people, and prays for their wellbeing.

If you have an issue with the OCU... do you also have an issue with the OCA? Just curious.
No. Why would I?
In fact, I would have preferred that the Patriarchate of Moscow had issued a similar Tomos as the OCA's to UOC long ago.
 

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So are the mega churches and the mosques. The question is WHOSE success they represent. "Broad the road and wide the gate...."


Pretty full, but fuller and more is always nicer. Of course, they do not depend on seizing Churches and the State suppressing rivals for that.




No. Why would I?
In fact, I would have preferred that the Patriarchate of Moscow had issued a similar Tomos as the OCA's to UOC long ago.
murall.jpg


Never mind the embarrassingly passive aggressive symbolism in the middle - St. George is topped by a Nazi kitsch take on Nordic runes called a Wolfsangel, used as an insignia of several Waffen-SS units. There are also flags of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army in the background.
 

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I am always amazed by people who are so biased against a nation, and blind to all the ills of other nations.

I would never claim Ukraine, or all her people, are saints. Far from it. But, I would defend their right to worship the Lord in a Church where they can speak their own language, and not have to be under the "loving" arm of a nation with whom they currently are in a bloody war, a nation that has annexed part of their lands after signing a treaty to exactly not do so, a nation that has historically, for centuries invaded and murdered her people.

Yes, it would be great if we ALL put aside our national sentimentalities and truly worshipped the Lord as one, however, we are humans living in a fallen world.

As such... I commend the EP for signing the Tomos of Autocephaly, permitting millions of Ukrainian to freely partake of the Holy Sacraments of the Church.

Are all the clergy of the OCU saintly? Probably not... but, I could also point to a good man clergy from other jurisdictions who have fallen well short of the mark.

The OCU is no threat to anyone, other than the MP. Instead of trying to rip the Church apart, perhaps it would be more Christian to rejoice that so many people are worshipping Christ, partaking of the Eucharist, etc. Stop blindly supporting the MP. He is not all you think, he is so much more...

Wishing you find peace, and room in your heart for all your Orthodox brothers and sisters.
 

ialmisry

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I am always amazed by people who are so biased against a nation, and blind to all the ills of other nations.
Oh? Like who?
I would never claim Ukraine, or all her people, are saints. Far from it.
Don't know about that.

But, I would defend their right to worship the Lord in a Church where they can speak their own language,

and not have to be under the "loving" arm of a nation with whom they currently are in a bloody war
Who is "they"?
,
a nation that has annexed part of their lands after signing a treaty to exactly not do so, a nation that has historically, for centuries invaded and murdered her people.
Quite a bit of revisionism going on there.


Yes, it would be great if we ALL put aside our national sentimentalities and truly worshipped the Lord as one, however, we are humans living in a fallen world.

As such... I commend the EP for signing the Tomos of Autocephaly, permitting millions of Ukrainian to freely partake of the Holy Sacraments of the Church.
He is not all you think, the ethnarch of the Phanar is so much more....

HIs signature didn't deliver the Holy Mysteries of the Church to the schmatics/heretics. It only cast doubt on the ministry of himself and the millions in communion with him of the Holy Mysteries. Communion with schmatics and heretics does not make them Orthodox. It makes you schismatic and heretical.

Are all the clergy of the OCU saintly? Probably not... but, I could also point to a good man clergy from other jurisdictions who have fallen well short of the mark.

The OCU is no threat to anyone, other than the MP.
au contraire-throwing the whole of the canons, praxis and dogma of the Orthodox Church under the bus to serve an ethnophyletist agenda threatens any upholding the Church and Her canons, praxis and dogma.

Instead of trying to rip the Church apart, perhaps it would be more Christian to rejoice that so many people are worshipping Christ, partaking of the Eucharist, etc.
It is not Christian to rejoice at schismatics trying to rip the Church apart with their pseudu-hiearchies, ersatz apostolic succession, and wanna be supreme pontiff. See what St. Ignatius warns about those who gather in separation for rival "eucharist"s.
Stop blindly supporting the MP. He is not all you think, he is so much more...
One does not have to support the MP, blindly or otherwise, to oppose the Ucrainicans. The Ethnarch of the Phanar is not all you think, he is so much more....
Wishing you find peace, and room in your heart for all your Orthodox brothers and sisters.
Praying for and correcting the wayward demonstrates love for them, not confirming them in their heretical schismatic folly.
 

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I am always amazed by people who are so biased against a nation, and blind to all the ills of other nations.
This is precisely how a certain kind of Ukrainian, primarily, but not exclusively, found in the diaspora and Galicia, is about Russia.
 

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This is precisely how a certain kind of Ukrainian, primarily, but not exclusively, found in the diaspora and Galicia, is about Russia.
What's funny is that my priest is actually from the westernmost part of Ukraine and speaks Russian with a heavy Ukrainian dialect (and is fairly patriotic in this regard) and is as opposed as one can be against the pseudo church structure the Phanar has created in Ukraine. And contrary to what Ukrainian Cold War jurisdictions close to the CIA want to make people believe over in North America, the Phanar's project does not have any substantial popular support at all. Not in the Ukraine itself and neither in the diaspora. And the 300.000 people (among them a parishioner of mine) marching with Metropolitan Onuphry on this year's Baptism of Rus' celebration also give a different witness.
 

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I would reply in depth... but, it would delve into politics, and there is no point... because clearly minds are made up.

I will continue to think as I do... and respect your right to think the way you do.

I would just suggest that we stop trying to dig up any dirt we can find on each other, and instead nurture our commonalities.
All the pro-MP sites will dig up any images of something too nationalistic so they can broadcast to the world how crazy and fanatic Ukrainians are... and you all eat it up. Every single nation has a dark past, and has fanatics.

Most Ukrainians are pious Christians who just wish to pray, partake of the Sacraments, get their items blessed, children Christened...
However, the more you accuse someone of something... the more likely you are to create just that which you seem to fear. The more people feel the need to defend themselves, the more likely they are to become just those fanatics you accuse them of being...

....and before I leave.... if a Roman Catholic, or anyone Baptized in the Holy Trinity, who did not adhere to Orthodox dogma in any way... who did not accept icons, did not fast, etc... can be accepted into the Church via one Holy Sacrament - usually Confession... then why do you fight against the clergy of the KP being accepted to the OCU? You have a political agenda, not a theological one.

In the end all glory and worship goes to God... is the main thing.
 

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if a Roman Catholic, or anyone Baptized in the Holy Trinity, who did not adhere to Orthodox dogma in any way... who did not accept icons, did not fast, etc... can be accepted into the Church via one Holy Sacrament - usually Confession... then why do you fight against the clergy of the KP being accepted to the OCU?
You're deliberately misconstruing the issues. The presence of self-ordained UAOC people in the OCU disqualifies the entire enterprise before one discusses the more complicated issue of the KP people. However, Archbishop Anastasios-- no one's idea of a Russophile-- has explained the serious canonical issues with admitting the KP clergy by Constantinople-- they refused to repent of their schism and return to the church that they left. Patriarch Bartholomew twice, in writing, recognized the Moscow Patriarchate's exclusive competency (his words) to issue and to lift anathemas on the KP clergy. He has no moral or canonical right to suddenly change his mind. The issue here isn't about the Ukrainian nation or about Russia, it's about the danger of letting fake bishops into the Church and the scandal of Patriarch Bartholomew's rank dishonesty and grubbing for power.
 

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What's funny is that my priest is actually from the westernmost part of Ukraine and speaks Russian with a heavy Ukrainian dialect (and is fairly patriotic in this regard) and is as opposed as one can be against the pseudo church structure the Phanar has created in Ukraine. And contrary to what Ukrainian Cold War jurisdictions close to the CIA want to make people believe over in North America, the Phanar's project does not have any substantial popular support at all. Not in the Ukraine itself and neither in the diaspora. And the 300.000 people (among them a parishioner of mine) marching with Metropolitan Onuphry on this year's Baptism of Rus' celebration also give a different witness.
When I met a subject of the Vatican from L'viv who was strongly Russophile to the point of having no problem with classes at Kiev University being in Russian, it just solidified that Svaboda mentality was not at the core of Ukrainstvo.
 

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Back to the initial topic, if Rome and Constantinople enter into communion - and while I know it's unlikely, I think it's more likely than some people want to believe given the ethos that is currently prevailing in both the Phanar and the Vatican - how will the rest of the Orthodox world react?

I expect that the non-Hellenic patriarchates will universally condemn such a development and not join in. But, I also expect Patriarch Bartholomew to try to arm-twist the Greek jurisdictions in much the same way as he did over the OCU. Will they fall in line this time? What about Athos? And Elder Ephraim's North American network? Are we heading for some sort of cataclysmic schism? Or is the slightly too ecumenical Ecumenical Patriarch an atmosphere that will eventually fade?
 

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Back to the initial topic, if Rome and Constantinople enter into communion - and while I know it's unlikely, I think it's more likely than some people want to believe given the ethos that is currently prevailing in both the Phanar and the Vatican - how will the rest of the Orthodox world react?

I expect that the non-Hellenic patriarchates will universally condemn such a development and not join in. But, I also expect Patriarch Bartholomew to try to arm-twist the Greek jurisdictions in much the same way as he did over the OCU. Will they fall in line this time? What about Athos? And Elder Ephraim's North American network? Are we heading for some sort of cataclysmic schism? Or is the slightly too ecumenical Ecumenical Patriarch an atmosphere that will eventually fade?
I guess it all depends on what sacrifices people are willing to make. If none, they'll fall in line, if any, we'll see.
 

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But, I would defend their right to worship the Lord in a Church where they can speak their own language
Doesn't every Slavic church use Church Slavonic in their services anyway? Or is the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under Metropolitan Epiphanius using Ukrainian in their services?
And the 300.000 people (among them a parishioner of mine) marching with Metropolitan Onuphry on this year's Baptism of Rus' celebration also give a different witness.
I did want to comment on this. At least in Kiev, it looks like support is predominatently for the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under Metropolitan Onufriy; otherwise, would these hundreds of thousands of people have been able to process freely through the streets of the capital? As well as this, the Ecumenical Patriarch's goal was to unite all Ukrainian Orthodox churches into one autocephalous church, but a year later the bishop Filaret and his flock decided to leave Metropilitan Epiphanius's Ukrainian Orthodox Church to re-establish their own schismatic Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
Whether or not Metropolitan Epiphanius's Church is schismatic or not, I believe that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under the MP is a stronger bastion of unity than Metropolitan Epiphanius's Church.
Most Ukrainians are pious Christians who just wish to pray, partake of the Sacraments, get their items blessed, children Christened...
Aren't we all? But the flock of the Russian Orthodox Church, of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and of the (possibly schismatic) Ukrainian Orthodox Church under Metropolitan Epiphanius have been dragged into this mess.
What about Athos? And Elder Ephraim's North American network?
It would be very messy in Mount Athos, but freedom of religion in the United States would allow the Athonite monasteries to leave the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and I believe they would do so. In Greece however, state authorities enforce the decisions of the Church of Greece and the Ecumenical Patriarchate, meaning that the Greek government would force Mount Athos to remain under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, despite the fact a lot of Athonite monasteries on Athos would probably want to leave.
 

Tzimis

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There's lots of speculation and gossip going on here.
 

LizaSymonenko

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Doesn't every Slavic church use Church Slavonic in their services anyway? Or is the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under Metropolitan Epiphanius using Ukrainian in their services?

I did want to comment on this. At least in Kiev, it looks like support is predominatently for the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under Metropolitan Onufriy; otherwise, would these hundreds of thousands of people have been able to process freely through the streets of the capital? As well as this, the Ecumenical Patriarch's goal was to unite all Ukrainian Orthodox churches into one autocephalous church, but a year later the bishop Filaret and his flock decided to leave Metropilitan Epiphanius's Ukrainian Orthodox Church to re-establish their own schismatic Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
Whether or not Metropolitan Epiphanius's Church is schismatic or not, I believe that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under the MP is a stronger bastion of unity than Metropolitan Epiphanius's Church.

Aren't we all? But the flock of the Russian Orthodox Church, of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and of the (possibly schismatic) Ukrainian Orthodox Church under Metropolitan Epiphanius have been dragged into this mess.

It would be very messy in Mount Athos, but freedom of religion in the United States would allow the Athonite monasteries to leave the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and I believe they would do so. In Greece however, state authorities enforce the decisions of the Church of Greece and the Ecumenical Patriarchate, meaning that the Greek government would force Mount Athos to remain under the Ecumenical Patriarchate, despite the fact a lot of Athonite monasteries on Athos would probably want to leave.
No... not all "Slavic" Churches use Church Slavonic.
Yes the OCU uses Ukrainian, just as the OCA uses English.

I don't know about Kiev.... but, in Kyiv there were thousands of faithful from the UOC/MP that came out to cheer P. Bartholomew, not only those who adhere to the OCU.

P. Filaret is not, and was not, a canonical bishop. He does not have a large following.

The OCU has over 7,000 parishes at the moment, while the MP parishes have around 9,000 in Ukraine. People are free to choose where they attend.

Why do you feel so strongly against the OCU... I've asked the same question and not gotten a good answer... do you recognize the canonicity of the OCA... or are they also schismatics?
 
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No... not all "Slavic" Churches use Church Slavonic.
Yes the OCU uses Ukrainian, just as the OCA uses English.

I don't know about Kiev.... but, in Kyiv there were thousands of faithful from the UOC/MP that came out to cheer P. Bartholomew, not only those who adhere to the OCU.

P. Filaret is not, and was not, a canonical bishop. He does not have a large following.

The OCU has over 7,000 parishes at the moment, while the MP parishes have around 9,000 in Ukraine. People are free to choose where they attend.

Why do you feel so strongly against the OCU... I've asked the same question and not gotten a good answer... do you recognize the canonicity of the OCA... or are they also schismatics?
The OCA was granted autocephaly by Moscow, her mother Patriarch, whereas the OCU was granted autocephaly unilaterally from a Patriarch that had no canonical jurisdiction over Ukraine.
 

LizaSymonenko

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The OCA was granted autocephaly by Moscow, her mother Patriarch, whereas the OCU was granted autocephaly unilaterally from a Patriarch that had no canonical jurisdiction over Ukraine.
If you go back and look at the actual history... he had every right to do so. The EP never relinquished Kyiv to the MP.
 
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