Rumors or actual possibility? (Constantinople/Rome Union)

[Ariend]

I don't know about Kiev....

Just to clarify, Kiev is Kyiv, I just tend to call it Kiev because that's how I called it my whole life (and now looking it up, apparently Kyiv is the Ukraininan name and Kiev is the Russian name)

P. Filaret is not, and was not, a canonical bishop. He does not have a large following.

If he never was a canonical bishop... was he then not canonical when he was a part of the OCU under Metropolitan Epiphanius?

Why do you feel so strongly against the OCU... I've asked the same question and not gotten a good answer... do you recognize the canonicity of the OCA... or are they also schismatics?

Do you recognize the canonicity of the OCA?
I never said I felt strongly against it, I haven't made up my mind whether or not I think the OCU under Metropolitan Epiphanios is schismatic. I recognize the canonicity of the OCA because, since the fall of the Russian Empire, North America has never been under the sole ecclesiastical jurisdiction of any one Church. However, for centuries Ukraine has been under the ecclesiastical jurisdiction of the Russian Orthodox Church, and now the Ecumenical Patriarch and the OCU under Metropolitan Epiphanios are violating this ecclesiastical jurisdiction (and then one could argue about whether or not this ecclesiastical governance was revocable, as you have; I'm just stating my views). At the same time, there are many countries with overlapping jurisdictions in each other's territories (such as in America), so I don't think this warrants a schism.
I think it was completely unnecessary for the Ecumenical Patriarch to establish an autocephalous Orthodox Church in Ukraine, since salvation can be found in any Orthodox church, and the faithful in Ukraine had the churches under the Russian Orthodox Church. Autocephaly should happen when it is natural to do so (such as with the OCA), not when it will cause so much division as it has done with Ukraine. Even if Russia has been pushing its agenda through the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under Metropolitan Onufriy, this doesn't deny the fact that Ukrainians can still find salvation through parishes under the Russian Orthodox Church, which is all that matters in the end.

 

[Katechon]

No... not all "Slavic" Churches use Church Slavonic.
Yes the OCU uses Ukrainian, just as the OCA uses English.

I don't know about Kiev.... but, in Kyiv there were thousands of faithful from the UOC/MP that came out to cheer P. Bartholomew, not only those who adhere to the OCU.

P. Filaret is not, and was not, a canonical bishop. He does not have a large following.

The OCU has over 7,000 parishes at the moment, while the MP parishes have around 9,000 in Ukraine. People are free to choose where they attend.

Why do you feel so strongly against the OCU... I've asked the same question and not gotten a good answer... do you recognize the canonicity of the OCA... or are they also schismatics?

The Wikipedia numbers are fake.

 

[LizaSymonenko]

The Wikipedia numbers are fake.

OK... let me know of an accurate site... that is objective.

I have no issues with the truth.

 

[sestir]

It would be very messy in Mount Athos, but freedom of religion in the United States would allow the Athonite monasteries to leave the Ecumenical Patriarchate, and I believe they would do so.

There is a case from 2012 between the Jehovah's Witnesses' Watchtower Society and four elders in Menlo Park, which suggests US law works the way you think Greek law works.

 

[melkite]

When I met a subject of the Vatican from L'viv who was strongly Russophile to the point of having no problem with classes at Kiev University being in Russian, it just solidified that Svaboda mentality was not at the core of Ukrainstvo.

When you say a subject of the Vatican from Lviv, do you mean a Ukrainian Greek Catholic, or a Polish Latin Catholic?

 

[Katechon]

OK... let me know of an accurate site... that is objective.

I have no issues with the truth.

If you want a more realistic number, compare how many monastics the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church has as opposed to the Phanar's project.

 

[Saxon]

How many UOC-MP churches and monasteries have been seized by supporters of the OCU? And we're not talking enforcement of court orders, but literal armed mobs seizing the buildings and beating clergy and parishioners.

 

[LizaSymonenko]

If you want a more realistic number, compare how many monastics the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church has as opposed to the Phanar's project.

You must have missed when I stated to find an "objective" source.

That would be one not pro-OCU, nor pro-MP.

 

[Ariend]

If you want a more realistic number, compare how many monastics the canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church has as opposed to the Phanar's project.

To be fair, the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America is one of the biggest American Orthodox jurisdictions, and it has like 3 monasteries.

 

[Katechon]

To be fair, the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America is one of the biggest American Orthodox jurisdictions, and it has like 3 monasteries.

America is a completely different case with jurisdictions overlapping anyway. Someone in the AA with a monastic vocation might just go to an OCA, ROCOR, or Ephraimite monastery.

 

[melkite]

America is a completely different case with jurisdictions overlapping anyway. Someone in the AA with a monastic vocation might just go to an OCA, ROCOR, or Ephraimite monastery.

Who are the Ephraimites? Is that one of the non-canonical Old Calendarists groups?

 

[Samn!]

Who are the Ephraimites? Is that one of the non-canonical Old Calendarists groups?

It's a network of men's and women's monasteries under GOARCH that was founded by the Elder Ephrem, a monk of the Monastery Philotheou on Athos. They keep a very Athonite piety that has caused some friction and have never transitioned to any language other than Greek, but, alongside Holy Cross Monastery in West Virginia, it's the most vibrant section of American monasticism.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Who are the Ephraimites? Is that one of the non-canonical Old Calendarists groups?

Ephraimite is a term which is usually used pejoratively by people who want to portray the monasteries as some kind of cult started by Elder Ephraim. Contrary to these absurd claims, the seventeen monasteries planted by Elder Ephraim continue in their mission to bring Athonite-style monasticism to the United States and to provide spiritual nourishment to the faithful after the repose of Elder Ephraim while still maintaining a close relation with the monastery of Philotheou and its present abbot, Elder Nikodemos, and also enjoying what appears to be some measure of favor from Archbishop Elpidophoros who has spoken supportively of the monasteries and of Elder Eprhaim and has visited them to officiate services.

 

[Tzimis]

Greeks will never bow down to Italian. Ask me how I know.

 

[melkite]

It's a network of men's and women's monasteries under GOARCH that was founded by the Elder Ephrem, a monk of the Monastery Philotheou on Athos. They keep a very Athonite piety that has caused some friction and have never transitioned to any language other than Greek, but, alongside Holy Cross Monastery in West Virginia, it's the most vibrant section of American monasticism.

Is there something "wrong" with the other Orthodox monasteries in North America? Or do these just represent a particular adherence to tradition? In what ways are the other monasteries less vibrant? Asking from a complete lack of knowledge.

 

[Katechon]

Ephraimite is a term which is usually used pejoratively by people who want to portray the monasteries as some kind of cult started by Elder Ephraim. Contrary to these absurd claims, the seventeen monasteries planted by Elder Ephraim continue in their mission to bring Athonite-style monasticism to the United States and to provide spiritual nourishment to the faithful after the repose of Elder Ephraim while still maintaining a close relation with the monastery of Philotheou and its present abbot, Elder Nikodemos, and also enjoying what appears to be some measure of favor from Archbishop Elpidophoros who has spoken supportively of the monasteries and of Elder Eprhaim and has visited them to officiate services.

I wasn't trying to demean them by using that term, I just wanted to distinguish them from broader GOARCH, which can propably not be taken in any other way than as a compliment.

 

[Saxon]

Is there something "wrong" with the other Orthodox monasteries in North America? Or do these just represent a particular adherence to tradition? In what ways are the other monasteries less vibrant? Asking from a complete lack of knowledge.

There's nothing wrong with them. They do tend to reflect the ethos of their respective jurisdictions. Elder Ephraim's 17 monasteries and convents reflect the Athonite tradition of their founder. Some people in a more coddled North America find that off-putting, but there's nothing strange going on there. I occasionally attend St. Kosmas Aitolos monastery - part of that network - here in Ontario, and the nuns are lovely.

The Russian monasteries also tend to be very close to that Optina-style mindset.

I can't speak for the others, having never visited. The only reason that some monasteries are less "vibrant" is that North America doesn't really have a monastic tradition that draws large numbers of pilgrims and visitors like more traditionally Orthodox and Catholic countries do.

 

[Shanghaiski]

Greeks will never bow down to Italian. Ask me how I know.

It happened multiple times before.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Is there something "wrong" with the other Orthodox monasteries in North America? Or do these just represent a particular adherence to tradition? In what ways are the other monasteries less vibrant? Asking from a complete lack of knowledge.

The monasteries founded by Elder Ephraim keep a modified version of the rules which govern life at Philotheou Monastery on the Holy Mountain. Many Americans (even Orthodox ones) are not familiar with some of the more austere traditional practices of monasticism. This has caused some people to become alarmed, for example, when their adult children decide to join a monastery and cease regular contact with friends and relatives in the world after being cloistered. Certain priests also seem to hold to a strange misconception that they are completely in control of their parishioners concerning spiritual matters, so that they become angry when people choose to have their children baptized at a monastery or even just to visit a monastery without asking for their "permission" first. It is also true that many people, having been poorly catechized, become upset when they hear opinions like, "Christians should keep the fast," "women should cover their heads in church as St. Paul taught," "fornication is objectively sinful," or "birth control is not traditionally permissible."

I wasn't trying to demean them by using that term, I just wanted to distinguish them from broader GOARCH, which can propably not be taken in any other way than as a compliment.

I think many of the monastics would frown at the idea of that being a compliment. Whatever their personal opinions about Archbishop Elpidophoros' doctrinal orthodoxy or personal virtue, they operate under the hierarchy of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, recognize her bishops as men whom God has allowed to have ecclesiastical authority over their monasteries here in America, and honor Elder Ephraim's mission to bring spiritual renewal to the Orthodox faithful in America through monasticism. He did not bring monasticism here to create a breeding ground for isolated zealots but rather to create exemplars of faith, devotion and observance of the traditions of the Church.

 

[biro]

I’m half-Italian, can I still go to a Greek church?

 

[Katechon]

I think many of the monastics would frown at the idea of that being a compliment. Whatever their personal opinions about Archbishop Elpidophoros' doctrinal orthodoxy or personal virtue, they operate under the hierarchy of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, recognize her bishops as men whom God has allowed to have ecclesiastical authority over their monasteries here in America, and honor Elder Ephraim's mission to bring spiritual renewal to the Orthodox faithful in America through monasticism.

I don't give a damn about the pretentious pseudo loyalty and pseudo honor Phanariots use to cloak their intellectual cowardice in. I've seen that enough with Papists and their fake "martyrdom" of cognitive dissonance.

 

[Cavaradossi]

I don't give a damn about the pretentious pseudo loyalty and pseudo honor Phanariots use to cloak their intellectual cowardice in. I've seen that enough with Papists and their fake "martyrdom" of cognitive dissonance.

You would fit in at Esphigmenou, maybe.

 

[Katechon]

You would fit in at Esphigmenou, maybe.

I doubt that. I am not sure, but Mount Athos in general seems to be a lot worse than the exotic ultra conservative image it has overseas. It will propably turn into a gay sauna during the next 20 years.

 

[Cavaradossi]

I doubt that. Mount Athos in general seems to be a lot worse than the exotic ultra conservative image it has overseas. It will propably turn into a gay sauna during the next 20 years.

I have seen the spiritual fruits borne by the labors of Elder Ephraim and his spiritual children here in America, and by these fruits I know that their devotion is true. St. Joseph the Hesychast and his legacy have blessed the Holy Mountain with many abbots, elders, and spiritual fathers with a deep and abiding love for God and devotion to His Church. May God forgive you for what you write.

 

[Katechon]

I have seen the spiritual fruits borne by the labors of Elder Ephraim and his spiritual children here in America, and by these fruits I know that their devotion is true. St. Joseph the Hesychast and his legacy have blessed the Holy Mountain with many abbots, elders, and spiritual fathers with a deep and abiding love for God and devotion to His Church. May God forgive you for what you write.

Dude, I wasn't calling the sanctity of those Elders in question. Stop insinuating something like that.
Have you also seen Athos abbots concelebrating with the schismatics from Ukraine?

 

[Ariend]

the seventeen monasteries planted by Elder Ephraim continue in their mission to bring Athonite-style monasticism to the United States and to provide spiritual nourishment to the faithful after the repose of Elder Ephraim

If only I could actually understand anything they were saying in their services.

 

[Tzimis]

Dude, I wasn't calling the sanctity of those Elders in question. Stop insinuating something like that.
Have you also seen Athos abbots concelebrating with the schismatics from Ukraine?

You blatantly called them all homosexuals and now you want to show some piety. Lol

 

[Tzimis]

It happened multiple times before.

Then you woke up.

 

[Katechon]

You blatantly called them all homosexuals and now you want to show some piety. Lol

No I didn't. I said that this place will propably turn into a hub for something like that in the next 20 years, because thats the usual thing happening to monasteries once grace leaves them.
Seraphim of Piraeus said too that the "Old Mt Athos" does not exist anymore.
The idea that Phanariot apostasy won't affect them is blatantly disproved by the fact that they concelebrate with Ukrainian schismatics.

 

[Tzimis]

No I didn't. I said that this place will propably turn into a hub for something like that in the next 20 years, because thats the usual thing happening to monasteries once grace leaves them.
Seraphim of Piraeus said too that the "Old Mt Athos" does not exist anymore.
The idea that Phanariot apostasy won't affect them is blatantly disproved by the fact that they concelebrate with Ukrainian schismatics.

Your basis of slander comes from the act of giving Ukraine a Tomos of Autocephalous.
Get over it. It happened 15 times throughout history. its not the first or the last.
It's clear by your words that you stand on the Russian political spectrum and are, I assume a national.
Keep in mind that the EP didn't cause the conflict, he simply comes in after the fact that Ukraine pulled itself away. It was 100% never going back to Russia rule. Just like many Balkan states.
Your slander is based on your love for country and you are simply choosing to ignore the plight of the Ukranians.
Its probably best that you search your own heart because a fantastic will always blindly see one side of the story.
Im sure the MP and EP will eventually come together on this and the MP choosing to break communion is a temporary measure that will ease over time.
There obligations first lie with church before country and it will become evident.

 

[Katechon]

Your basis of slander comes from the act of giving Ukraine a Tomos of Autocephalous.
Get over it. It happened 15 times throughout history. its not the first or the last.
It's clear by your words that you stand on the Russian political spectrum and are, I assume a national.
Keep in mind that the EP didn't cause the conflict, he simply comes in after the fact that Ukraine pulled itself away. It was 100% never going back to Russia rule. Just like many Balkan states.
Your slander is based on your love for country and you are simply choosing to ignore the plight of the Ukranians.
Its probably best that you search your own heart because a fantastic will always blindly see one side of the story.
Im sure the MP and EP will eventually come together on this and the MP choosing to break communion is a temporary measure that will ease over time.
There obligations first lie with church before country and it will become evident.

Dude, I am not a Russian national, your cheap psychologizing strawman falls apart. You, however, are a Greek national and on the same road of prideful apostasy as Old Rome and New Rome.
Also stop using an icon of the Theotokos as a profile picture, I prefer to not begin to associate it with your scandalous opinions.

 

[Gloria Tibi Trinitas]

Your basis of slander comes from the act of giving Ukraine a Tomos of Autocephalous.
Get over it. It happened 15 times throughout history. its not the first or the last.
It's clear by your words that you stand on the Russian political spectrum and are, I assume a national.
Keep in mind that the EP didn't cause the conflict, he simply comes in after the fact that Ukraine pulled itself away. It was 100% never going back to Russia rule. Just like many Balkan states.
Your slander is based on your love for country and you are simply choosing to ignore the plight of the Ukranians.
Its probably best that you search your own heart because a fantastic will always blindly see one side of the story.
Im sure the MP and EP will eventually come together on this and the MP choosing to break communion is a temporary measure that will ease over time.
There obligations first lie with church before country and it will become evident.

The plight of Ukrainians when they were going to canonical MP Churches and burning them and desecrating the altars?

 

[Tzimis]

The plight of Ukrainians when they were going to canonical MP Churches and burning them and desecrating the altars?

War is dirty and I don't condone there actions, but it was probably secularized people that wanted nothing to do with Russia.

 

[Tzimis]

Dude, I am not a Russian national, your cheap psychologizing strawman falls apart. You, however, are a Greek national and on the same road of prideful apostasy as Old Rome and New Rome.
Also stop using an icon of the Theotokos as a profile picture, I prefer to not begin to associate it with your scandalous opinions.

Sympathizers are often worse than nationalists.

 

[Katechon]

Sympathizers are often worse than nationalists.

You just backtracked the whole basis for the argument you made previously.

 

[melkite]

I doubt that. I am not sure, but Mount Athos in general seems to be a lot worse than the exotic ultra conservative image it has overseas. It will propably turn into a gay sauna during the next 20 years.

You seem to have a very cantankerous soul. Are you a Jay Dyer fan?

 

[Cavaradossi]

Dude, I wasn't calling the sanctity of those Elders in question. Stop insinuating something like that.
Have you also seen Athos abbots concelebrating with the schismatics from Ukraine?

“I wasn’t calling their sanctity into question, I was just calumniating all of their spiritual children and implying they will turn their monasteries into gay bath houses.”

There is no sense in continuing to write you given your obstinate refusal to retract your disgusting slander. May you find peace of soul, and may God be with you.

 

[Arachne]

I’m half-Italian, can I still go to a Greek church?

Una faccia, una razza (same face, same race), we say back home.

 

[Katechon]

“I wasn’t calling their sanctity into question, I was just calumniating all of their spiritual children and implying they will turn their monasteries into gay bath houses.”

Strawman Bro, try to keep to what I actually wrote.
There were Heretics and Apostates even among the 70, mind you.

There is no sense in continuing to write you given your obstinate refusal to retract your disgusting slander. May you find peace of soul, and may God be with you.

Stop piety signaling just because you don't want to see the propable results of the tendencies I described (I said it was a propable btw, not that it is cut in stone or that it already happened, so stop insinuating that). Athos hasn't been in a good place all it's existence, which you may know. And from my personal experience with spiritual children from there I can't really confirm what you might have found in one of Elder Ephraim's monasteries. Idolizing this place like Americans and even some bourgeios Europeans do won't help that either. It pains me to say that, but this kind of idolization won't help against the accusation of being part of a guruizing cult either, even though I know how entirely misplaced it is coming from a place like Goarch.
Athos CAN fall and WILL fall if it continues along the path Istanbul is headed, that is the only thing I tried to bring across.
If you are scandalized by how I worded that, fine, I take that. If you are scandalized by the very fact that it is that way and cloak that in being scandalized about my wording, you should get your priorities in order.

 

[Katechon]

You seem to have a very cantankerous soul. Are you a Jay Dyer fan?

I don't see from what place you see yourself able to judge my soul.