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Run from Protestantism with the same speed you run from death

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Iconodule

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Western Christians make the sign of the cross. Eastern Christians wave their hands in a circle and then hop to represent the empty tomb and the ascension. When the congregation does it together we call it "holy popcorning".
 

Daedelus1138

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juliogb said:
I don't know about anglicans or methodists, but reformed/presbyterians, at least in my experience, reject sacramentalism and usually the pastors will give a zwinglian definition of Eucharist and say that that moment is just a memorial, no real presence in the elements.
They don't believe Christ is in the elements locally or that the elements are changed in any way, but traditionally they believed the act of receiving communicates some kind of spiritual partaking of Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit.  So, the Reformed doctrine has been the most fragile of all the explanations, the most subject to modernism's encroachments. 

 

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Daedelus1138 said:
juliogb said:
I don't know about anglicans or methodists, but reformed/presbyterians, at least in my experience, reject sacramentalism and usually the pastors will give a zwinglian definition of Eucharist and say that that moment is just a memorial, no real presence in the elements.
They don't believe Christ is in the elements locally or that the elements are changed in any way, but traditionally they believed the act of receiving communicates the body and blood of Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit.  So, the Reformed doctrine has been the most fragile of all the explanations, the most subject to modernism's encroachments.
One of your sentences is unlike the other.
 

Daedelus1138

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There is a real tendency in the US for the Reformed to lose their identity and become like "wet-baby Baptists".  In continental European Reformed churches, the sacraments have always had more importance as the ordinary means of grace.
 

Mor Ephrem

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Sharbel said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Western vs Eastern and strike-outs and replacements were all you.
Replacement of one slant with another focus.  How is this opposition, you?
"Slant" is the problem.  Replacing one slant with another slant doesn't remove the problem of slant. 

If you combined your additions with David Young's (rather than crossing his out and dismissing it as a Western slant), you would've approximated "the Orthodox view".  What he wrote was orthodox but unbalanced.  What you wrote was orthodox but unbalanced.  To the extent that the imbalance actually obscures the Orthodox teaching, neither of you were very Orthodox. 
 

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ialmisry said:
sedevacantist said:
ialmisry said:
sedevacantist said:
ialmisry said:
sedevacantist said:
Anthony1986 said:
http://catholicism.org/sedevacantism-and-schism.html

According to Catholic apologists Sedevantists are in schism.
How could I be in schism from apostate Rome, who now prays with jews in synagogues.
Because "Pastor Aeternus" tells you so.
Read the following, convert and save your soul

A. Bull: Cum Ex Apostolatus [16 Feb. 1559], Pope Paul IV
— “Further, if ever it should appear that any bishop (even one acting as an archbishop, patriarch or primate), or a cardinal of the Roman Church, or a legate (as mentioned above), or even the Roman Pontiff (whether prior to his promotion to cardinal, or prior to his election as Roman Pontiff), has beforehand deviated from the Catholic faith or fallen into any heresy, We enact, decree, determine and define:
— “Such promotion or election in and of itself, even with the agreement and unanimous consent of all the cardinals, shall be null, legally invalid and void... Those so promoted or elected, by that very fact and without the need to make any further declaration, shall be deprived of any dignity, position, honor, title, authority, office and power.”
Your "Apostolic Constitution" "Pastor Aeternus" trumps your bull. Not that it matters, it is past his election now, many times over, and you have no other electors.

Read the following Encyclicals of the Orthodox Patriarchs, convert and save your soul!
http://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1848orthodoxencyclical.asp
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1895.aspx
Does Pastor Aeternus speak to a pope being a heretic?
the pope issuing it was a heretic for doing so.

Does it speak to having an empty see for a bishop?

sedevacantist said:
I hold the Catholic faith so nothing for me to convert to.
To Truth.
sedevacantist said:
I will read your articles in hopes to save you from damnation.
I have no interest in the position of your proselyte protoge for hell.
The pope issuing it is  a heretic?  what are you yapping about? you don't know what you are talking about
 

ialmisry

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sedevacantist said:
ialmisry said:
sedevacantist said:
ialmisry said:
sedevacantist said:
ialmisry said:
sedevacantist said:
Anthony1986 said:
http://catholicism.org/sedevacantism-and-schism.html

According to Catholic apologists Sedevantists are in schism.
How could I be in schism from apostate Rome, who now prays with jews in synagogues.
Because "Pastor Aeternus" tells you so.
Read the following, convert and save your soul

A. Bull: Cum Ex Apostolatus [16 Feb. 1559], Pope Paul IV
— “Further, if ever it should appear that any bishop (even one acting as an archbishop, patriarch or primate), or a cardinal of the Roman Church, or a legate (as mentioned above), or even the Roman Pontiff (whether prior to his promotion to cardinal, or prior to his election as Roman Pontiff), has beforehand deviated from the Catholic faith or fallen into any heresy, We enact, decree, determine and define:
— “Such promotion or election in and of itself, even with the agreement and unanimous consent of all the cardinals, shall be null, legally invalid and void... Those so promoted or elected, by that very fact and without the need to make any further declaration, shall be deprived of any dignity, position, honor, title, authority, office and power.”
Your "Apostolic Constitution" "Pastor Aeternus" trumps your bull. Not that it matters, it is past his election now, many times over, and you have no other electors.

Read the following Encyclicals of the Orthodox Patriarchs, convert and save your soul!
http://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1848orthodoxencyclical.asp
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/encyc_1895.aspx
Does Pastor Aeternus speak to a pope being a heretic?
the pope issuing it was a heretic for doing so.

Does it speak to having an empty see for a bishop?

sedevacantist said:
I hold the Catholic faith so nothing for me to convert to.
To Truth.
sedevacantist said:
I will read your articles in hopes to save you from damnation.
I have no interest in the position of your proselyte protoge for hell.
The pope issuing it is  a heretic?  what are you yapping about? you don't know what you are talking about
proving you do not know what you are yapping about.
 

pasadi97

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juliogb said:
Daedelus1138 said:
Rejection of sacramentalism is not a defining characteristic of Protestants.  While we might not agree on the mode of Christ's presence in the Eucharist, most historic Protestants (Lutherans, Reformed/Presbyterians , Anglicans, Methodists) affirm that those with faith receive Christ's body and blood in the sacrament.
I don't know about anglicans or methodists, but reformed/presbyterians, at least in my experience, reject sacramentalism and usually the pastors will give a zwinglian definition of Eucharist and say that that moment is just a memorial, no real presence in the elements.
No real poresence no eternal life.  They speak about their sacraments. What they say is OUR SACRAMENTS don't have flesh and blood of Jesus therefore you that partake from them remain without life in you without eternal life. RUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN from them....with the speeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed you run from death.
When orthodox and miracles speak about Orthodox Sacraments they say they are truly the blood and flesh of Jesus so orthodox have eternal life.
John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of jthe Son of Man and drink his blood, you khave no life in you.
 

pasadi97

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pasadi97 said:
juliogb said:
Daedelus1138 said:
Rejection of sacramentalism is not a defining characteristic of Protestants.  While we might not agree on the mode of Christ's presence in the Eucharist, most historic Protestants (Lutherans, Reformed/Presbyterians , Anglicans, Methodists) affirm that those with faith receive Christ's body and blood in the sacrament.
I don't know about anglicans or methodists, but reformed/presbyterians, at least in my experience, reject sacramentalism and usually the pastors will give a zwinglian definition of Eucharist and say that that moment is just a memorial, no real presence in the elements.
No real poresence no eternal life.  They speak about their sacraments. What they say is OUR SACRAMENTS don't have flesh and blood of Jesus therefore you that partake from them remain without life in you without eternal life. RUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN from them....with the speeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed you run from death.
When orthodox and miracles speak about Orthodox Sacraments they say they are truly the blood and flesh of Jesus so orthodox have eternal life.
John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of jthe Son of Man and drink his blood, you khave no life in you.
Hear you o PROTESTANTS what Jesus has to say:
John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of jthe Son of Man and drink his blood, you khave no life in you.

Truly truly. Truly twice. As you and your pastor says there is no flesh and blood of Jesus in your Church. There is death there is lack of life but you don't have eternal life. You are free to leave, free to put the pastor through school so he becomes orthodox priests. You have to come to orthodoxy that gives you eternal life, ........  you  have to.
 

pasadi97

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pasadi97 said:
pasadi97 said:
juliogb said:
Daedelus1138 said:
Rejection of sacramentalism is not a defining characteristic of Protestants.  While we might not agree on the mode of Christ's presence in the Eucharist, most historic Protestants (Lutherans, Reformed/Presbyterians , Anglicans, Methodists) affirm that those with faith receive Christ's body and blood in the sacrament.
I don't know about anglicans or methodists, but reformed/presbyterians, at least in my experience, reject sacramentalism and usually the pastors will give a zwinglian definition of Eucharist and say that that moment is just a memorial, no real presence in the elements.
No real poresence no eternal life.  They speak about their sacraments. What they say is OUR SACRAMENTS don't have flesh and blood of Jesus therefore you that partake from them remain without life in you without eternal life. RUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN from them....with the speeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed you run from death.
When orthodox and miracles speak about Orthodox Sacraments they say they are truly the blood and flesh of Jesus so orthodox have eternal life.
John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of jthe Son of Man and drink his blood, you khave no life in you.
Hear you o PROTESTANTS what Jesus has to say:
John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of jthe Son of Man and drink his blood, you khave no life in you.

Truly truly. Truly twice. As you and your pastor says there is no flesh and blood of Jesus in your Church. There is death there is lack of life but you don't have eternal life. You are free to leave, free to put the pastor through school so he becomes orthodox priests. You have to come to orthodoxy that gives you eternal life, ........  you  have to.
Hear you o PROTESTANTS what Jesus has to say:
John 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of jthe Son of Man and drink his blood, you khave no life in you.

Truly truly. Truly twice. As you and your pastor says there is no flesh and blood of Jesus in your Church. There is death there is lack of life but you don't have eternal life. You are free to leave, free to put the pastor through school so he becomes orthodox priests. You have to come to orthodoxy that gives you eternal life, ........  you  have to.

Oh I forgot you can do tons of works that is going to benefit whom, ....... some dead people?
 

Daedelus1138

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Porter ODoran said:
Daedelus1138 said:
juliogb said:
I don't know about anglicans or methodists, but reformed/presbyterians, at least in my experience, reject sacramentalism and usually the pastors will give a zwinglian definition of Eucharist and say that that moment is just a memorial, no real presence in the elements.
They don't believe Christ is in the elements locally or that the elements are changed in any way, but traditionally they believed the act of receiving communicates the body and blood of Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit.  So, the Reformed doctrine has been the most fragile of all the explanations, the most subject to modernism's encroachments.
One of your sentences is unlike the other.
I don't see how.  The view of classical Reformed theology is more like receptionism.  It's true it leans more on a nominalist understanding philosophically of the relationship between signs and the things symbolized, but it's still far from memorialism.
 

Iconodule

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That's true. The Calvinist view is very contorted and it is possible to squeeze some notion of "real presence" into it, but yes, "fragile" is the right word for it. The Reformed, much more than the Lutherans, were deeply influenced by Renaissance humanism and the Platonic revival and seem driven to divorce religion from materiality as much as possible. The eucharist seems to be the one thing flimsily tethering their doctrine to earth.
 

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Daedelus1138 said:
There is a real tendency in the US for the Reformed to lose their identity and become like "wet-baby Baptists".  In continental European Reformed churches, the sacraments have always had more importance as the ordinary means of grace.
Well, I live in Brazil, and brazilian protestantism is highly influentiated by north-american protestantism, wich is extremely anti-catholic, so anything resembling roman catholicism is usually avoided, so any kind of view of the sacraments as a mean of grace is non-existent in most of protestant denominations.
 

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Daedelus1138 said:
Porter ODoran said:
Daedelus1138 said:
juliogb said:
I don't know about anglicans or methodists, but reformed/presbyterians, at least in my experience, reject sacramentalism and usually the pastors will give a zwinglian definition of Eucharist and say that that moment is just a memorial, no real presence in the elements.
They don't believe Christ is in the elements locally or that the elements are changed in any way, but traditionally they believed the act of receiving communicates the body and blood of Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit.  So, the Reformed doctrine has been the most fragile of all the explanations, the most subject to modernism's encroachments.
One of your sentences is unlike the other.
I don't see how.  The view of classical Reformed theology is more like receptionism.  It's true it leans more on a nominalist understanding philosophically of the relationship between signs and the things symbolized, but it's still far from memorialism.
I just don't see how a doctrine that was thoroughly materialist to begin with is uniquely threatened by modernism, but I guess it would depend on the nuance of what you meant.
 

pasadi97

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Very smart fallen angel, very smart.

Even if God said that the gates of Hell will not overcome his church you convinced protestants that this is nottrue and helped them make a revolt.

After that you helped them choose and pick from all the gifts God put in his Church only Bible. They may have left outside the eternal life and they may have no life in them . Then you help them do the works so people would come to a Church without life probably instead of helping people go yto Orthodox Church that give people eternal life. You know that works may be of no use to a person without life in them.
 

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David Young said:
pasadi97 said:
As I said John 6:53 and John 6:54 are from Scripture.
The point y'all seem to miss (when posting replies or propositions such as some on this thread, as well as on various other threads over the years) is that our salvation depends on our faith in Christ, not on our understanding of Eucharistic doctrine.
Hi David, I was raised Protestant with a heavy Baptist upbringing so I think I have an understanding of what you mean, but for me Eucharistic doctrine is deeply entwined with "faith in Christ" and really are two sides of the same coin. Do I, or do I not have faith in Christ when he spoke of eating and drinking his flesh, that he spoke plainly about it being His body and that we should eat it? If it is His literal body (and it seems to me history supports that the earliest of Christians held this belief) I figure I ought to take the words of Christ seriously. If we have the chance to touch His actual body, then to me, that's the most black and white reality of whether or not we "accept Christ". It is a literal accepting of Christ (partaking in the Eucharist) or rejecting Christ (denying His body, the Eucharist).

I am not saying partaking in the Eucharist = automatic salvation, but that it's part of salvation. It's part of obedience. If we desire to be close to God, how much closer to God can the average person get on earth than the Eucharist? I see myself as the sick woman reaching out to grasp the hem of His garment. And yet how much more blessed are we to have His body and not merely His hem?

If a group is making a claim that they have the literal body of Christ, ought we not investigate that? It's a pretty bold statement to make. And if it's a true one, it radically changes a lot of things (at least it did for me).

What if you are right about the bread and wine, and we are wrong? Does its validity, or efficacy, depend on our understanding of how it works, or on our taking the bread and wine in grateful and trusting remembrance of him whom we (like you) believe to be Lord, and to have been raised by God from the dead? If I go to the Lord's Table sorry for my sins, remembering the shed blood and broken body of our Lord on the Cross, and trusting that as God's means of atonement for my sin, why should I not receive the blessing which flows through the housel, even if my mind as a Baptist has misunderstood some of the doctrine attaching to it?
Actually I agree with a lot of what you wrote here, but it seems to me what you're saying is not wholly incompatible with Orthodox belief. I think this is one reason why we pray for the Lord to have mercy on us. Are we doing the most with what we have been given? Orthodox don't believe that salvation is solely given to those with the capability to intellectually understand all doctrinal minutiae (although I was raised the opposite; I was taught all babies, mentally handicapped, and anyone without a Baptist understanding of salvation was going to hell).

The other wrong tree up which you bark when trying to persuade us is positing an "only true church". We don't believe there is such a thing, therefore your claim to be it fails to have an impact on us.
If there were an only true church, and if it did derive its validity from a chain of unbroken priestly succession back to the apostles, then the Orthodox Church would have a strong claim. But there isn't, and therefore it doesn't, as we see things.
I agree with the first part of your statement here as far as dialoguing with Protestants go; making a claim about a one true church doesn't make sense or hold authority as an immediate argument because the legitimacy of Protestantism rests upon the belief that no one group has a corner on truth.

However, I started to question the Bible and why it had such authority. Why as Protestants is the Bible given such authority if it was canonized by corrupt men (what I had been taught the church was once Constantine entered the picture) or the opinions of pious men (what other denominations may hold if they're more gracious towards that time period)? It's just men either way, not an "official" group of One True Church if such a thing doesn't exist. So if I don't like certain books in the Bible, why can't I just create my own? The One True Church thing became a legitimate point once I dug deeper about the Bible.

 

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Congratulation maneki. I see you walking toward life and eternal life leaving the realm of the dead.I see you start having faith in what Jesus said and in Bible and I see you starting to believe in Jesus words.

Read the Holy Liturgy of Apostle James and Holy Liturgy of Apostle and Evangelist Mark and see that the understandiung of Apostles is that you need to literaly drink and eat Jesus blood and flesh to have life and eternal life.

Have faith in Jesus iand in his words. They are true.
 

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MAneki I kindli suggest Eastern Orthodox Church especially Russian Orthodox Church if possible. Russian Orthodox Church was said by the angel that it will keep the truth in the last times.
 

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pasadi97 said:
If I would be protestant pastor I would go one year to school to become orthodox priest and to give eternal life to people that love me.
The thought has entered into my mind to become a Protestant minister just to lead a congregation out of Protestantism and into Orthodoxy.  Likely in a Protestant church that is experimenting with the Emergent and Ancient Future concepts, perhaps a parish of the United Church of Christ, which is ultra liberal, theologically, but this open mindedness might make them receptive to Eastern theology and so on.  A parish like the ECUSA parish of St. Gregory of Nyssa in San Francisco might seem on the outside to be an easier target, but with the Episcopal church, the diocese owns all the buildings, whereas with a congregational church, the congregation owns it, and if you can persuade them to embrace Orthodoxy, they could leave the UCC or whatever group they are affiliated with to move to us.

But would this kind of Jesuit-esque infilitration, which Protestants have often used on the Orthodox, particularly the Oriental Orthodox church, be morally permissable from an Orthodox perspective?
 

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Iconodule said:
That's true. The Calvinist view is very contorted and it is possible to squeeze some notion of "real presence" into it, but yes, "fragile" is the right word for it. The Reformed, much more than the Lutherans, were deeply influenced by Renaissance humanism and the Platonic revival and seem driven to divorce religion from materiality as much as possible. The eucharist seems to be the one thing flimsily tethering their doctrine to earth.
I agree with you entirely regarding the humanist, neo-Platonic, crypto-Gnostic aspect of Reformed / Calvinist Christianity, but most Calvinists including I think John Calvin and John Knox would have vehemently denied being directly influenced by the Renaissance, humanism or Plato, or even Scholastic theology I think. 

Would you agree this influence was environmental and derives from the secular education and background of John Calvin, a lawyer by trade until he became a great heresiarch?
 

LBK

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Alpha60 said:
The thought has entered into my mind to become a Protestant minister just to lead a congregation out of Protestantism and into Orthodoxy.  Likely in a Protestant church that is experimenting with the Emergent and Ancient Future concepts, perhaps a parish of the United Church of Christ, which is ultra liberal, theologically, but this open mindedness might make them receptive to Eastern theology and so on.  A parish like the ECUSA parish of St. Gregory of Nyssa in San Francisco might seem on the outside to be an easier target, but with the Episcopal church, the diocese owns all the buildings, whereas with a congregational church, the congregation owns it, and if you can persuade them to embrace Orthodoxy, they could leave the UCC or whatever group they are affiliated with to move to us.
So you'd consider apostasy to indulge in a flight of fancy which has every chance of failure. Hmmm.  :eek: :p ::)
 

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The proof that Eastern orthodox Church has the blood and flesh of Jesus is a done by miracles in which Hoily Communion or bread and wine are literally transformed in blood and flesh on the Holy Liturgy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbcL4mkNfzM
Another such miracle was reported in our days in Romanian Orthodox Church

Another prroof that Eastern orthodox Church has the blood and flesh of Jesus or God are the writings of the Apostles beside Bible like Holy Liturgy of Apostle and Evangelist Mark http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0718.htm  He reffers to Holy Communion as flesh and blood of Jesus
 

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When you try to bring protestants to life fallen angel may intervene.
You are smart he is smarter.
Hou have power he can outpower you.
You have money he has a lot.
The way to defeat fallen angel is to bring God closer to and through prayer. So pray to God for protestants to come to life and to enlinghten you how you can help.`
Puttiung on a paper what you know and handling to protestants may be powerful enough and save their life.


If you read above and are protestants and in one month you are not orthodox or russian orthodox being in a state of death is time to find prayer groups on the internet and toi ask them to pray for you to be saved and to come to life and to eternal life. You can ask God to teach you religion the way he sees it.
You can not remain in a state without life at all costs.

And you can not teach children to go to protestantism because Bible says if yoyu cause these little ones to stumple beetter is to put a stone on your neck and throw it in to sea.
 

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Once in orthodox Church it is for life. If you exits and go to some other Church you may go to Hell.
 

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LBK said:
Alpha60 said:
The thought has entered into my mind to become a Protestant minister just to lead a congregation out of Protestantism and into Orthodoxy.  Likely in a Protestant church that is experimenting with the Emergent and Ancient Future concepts, perhaps a parish of the United Church of Christ, which is ultra liberal, theologically, but this open mindedness might make them receptive to Eastern theology and so on.  A parish like the ECUSA parish of St. Gregory of Nyssa in San Francisco might seem on the outside to be an easier target, but with the Episcopal church, the diocese owns all the buildings, whereas with a congregational church, the congregation owns it, and if you can persuade them to embrace Orthodoxy, they could leave the UCC or whatever group they are affiliated with to move to us.
So you'd consider apostasy to indulge in a flight of fancy which has every chance of failure. Hmmm.  :eek: :p ::)
No, because I would secretly remain Orthodox.  I would engage in dissimulation, in order to take the Protestant congregation into the Orthodox church.  And if the project looked to be a failure, I would abandon it.

Protestants have used these tactics against the Oriental Orthodox; I believe the Jesuits used these tactics for missionary purposes in several contexts; the real question is, is it ethical for Orthodox to engage in dissimulation to infiltrate heterodox churches and guide them into Orthodoxy?

Specifically, can an Orthodox dissimulate his Orthodoxy and assume a veil of Protestantism while remaining Orthodoxy and without engaging in an ethical contradiction contrary to the faith.
 

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Alpha60 said:
LBK said:
Alpha60 said:
The thought has entered into my mind to become a Protestant minister just to lead a congregation out of Protestantism and into Orthodoxy.  Likely in a Protestant church that is experimenting with the Emergent and Ancient Future concepts, perhaps a parish of the United Church of Christ, which is ultra liberal, theologically, but this open mindedness might make them receptive to Eastern theology and so on.  A parish like the ECUSA parish of St. Gregory of Nyssa in San Francisco might seem on the outside to be an easier target, but with the Episcopal church, the diocese owns all the buildings, whereas with a congregational church, the congregation owns it, and if you can persuade them to embrace Orthodoxy, they could leave the UCC or whatever group they are affiliated with to move to us.
So you'd consider apostasy to indulge in a flight of fancy which has every chance of failure. Hmmm.  :eek: :p ::)
No, because I would secretly remain Orthodox.  I would engage in dissimulation, in order to take the Protestant congregation into the Orthodox church.  And if the project looked to be a failure, I would abandon it.

Protestants have used these tactics against the Oriental Orthodox; I believe the Jesuits used these tactics for missionary purposes in several contexts; the real question is, is it ethical for Orthodox to engage in dissimulation to infiltrate heterodox churches and guide them into Orthodoxy?
Phrased another way: Is it ethical to deny Christ so that you can later praise him?

 

Iconodule

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But if predatory protestants and Jesuits did it, it must be okay, right? Heck, even Jim Jones was in on this dissimulation action!
 

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pasadi97 said:
MAneki I kindli suggest Eastern Orthodox Church especially Russian Orthodox Church if possible. Russian Orthodox Church was said by the angel that it will keep the truth in the last times.
Which Angel is "the angel"?

Your sowing seeds of division by claiming one jurisdiction of the Church is better or preferable to others. 
 

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Agabus said:
Alpha60 said:
LBK said:
Alpha60 said:
The thought has entered into my mind to become a Protestant minister just to lead a congregation out of Protestantism and into Orthodoxy.  Likely in a Protestant church that is experimenting with the Emergent and Ancient Future concepts, perhaps a parish of the United Church of Christ, which is ultra liberal, theologically, but this open mindedness might make them receptive to Eastern theology and so on.  A parish like the ECUSA parish of St. Gregory of Nyssa in San Francisco might seem on the outside to be an easier target, but with the Episcopal church, the diocese owns all the buildings, whereas with a congregational church, the congregation owns it, and if you can persuade them to embrace Orthodoxy, they could leave the UCC or whatever group they are affiliated with to move to us.
So you'd consider apostasy to indulge in a flight of fancy which has every chance of failure. Hmmm.  :eek: :p ::)
No, because I would secretly remain Orthodox.  I would engage in dissimulation, in order to take the Protestant congregation into the Orthodox church.  And if the project looked to be a failure, I would abandon it.

Protestants have used these tactics against the Oriental Orthodox; I believe the Jesuits used these tactics for missionary purposes in several contexts; the real question is, is it ethical for Orthodox to engage in dissimulation to infiltrate heterodox churches and guide them into Orthodoxy?
Phrased another way: Is it ethical to deny Christ so that you can later praise him?
Phrased another way: what do y'all think about being an Orthodox Harriet Tubman? Lit.
 

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Protestants have used these tactics against the Oriental Orthodox; I believe the Jesuits used these tactics for missionary purposes in several contexts; the real question is, is it ethical for Orthodox to engage in dissimulation to infiltrate heterodox churches and guide them into Orthodoxy?
No, it is not ethical to infiltrate a religious group, pretend that you are one of them to lead them to your religious group, a christian must avoid deception and dissimulation.
 

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Agabus said:
Alpha60 said:
LBK said:
Alpha60 said:
The thought has entered into my mind to become a Protestant minister just to lead a congregation out of Protestantism and into Orthodoxy.  Likely in a Protestant church that is experimenting with the Emergent and Ancient Future concepts, perhaps a parish of the United Church of Christ, which is ultra liberal, theologically, but this open mindedness might make them receptive to Eastern theology and so on.  A parish like the ECUSA parish of St. Gregory of Nyssa in San Francisco might seem on the outside to be an easier target, but with the Episcopal church, the diocese owns all the buildings, whereas with a congregational church, the congregation owns it, and if you can persuade them to embrace Orthodoxy, they could leave the UCC or whatever group they are affiliated with to move to us.
So you'd consider apostasy to indulge in a flight of fancy which has every chance of failure. Hmmm.  :eek: :p ::)
No, because I would secretly remain Orthodox.  I would engage in dissimulation, in order to take the Protestant congregation into the Orthodox church.  And if the project looked to be a failure, I would abandon it.

Protestants have used these tactics against the Oriental Orthodox; I believe the Jesuits used these tactics for missionary purposes in several contexts; the real question is, is it ethical for Orthodox to engage in dissimulation to infiltrate heterodox churches and guide them into Orthodoxy?
Phrased another way: Is it ethical to deny Christ so that you can later praise him?
No.

However, consider this scenario:

I become the pastor of a congregational church interested in ancient-future worship.  In the process of doing this I openly state I am baptized Orthodox, and if pressed, would not deny being an Orthodox Christian.  In fact, I might advertise my Orthodoxy and my familiarity with the Orthodox liturgical rites in order to get hired as "their man" to get them the ancient-future worship they want.

Then, over the course of the following years, I would implement the Orthodox liturgy, while satisfying the future aspect by installing iPads in the pews to provide interactive devotional aids to the service.  I would seek to build a following.

Then, at an opportune moment, I would propose to the congregation that we join the Orthodox Church.  To make this appealing to the ancient-future set, I would describe the thrills of chrismation and the hierarchical divine liturgy, and also dissuade anyones fears about the church being less open or friendly to women by stressing the antidoron and reading plenty of Metropolitan Kallistos Ware.  Indeed we would study it actively in the years proceeding up to this.

I would also not formally renounce my membership of the Orthodox Church, and ideally, a bishop would approve of the plan as a prototype of a procedure designed to scoop ancienf-future and emergent congregations, which I believe are ripe for conversion, into Holy Orthodoxy.

This approach would avoid the dissimulation I mentioned earlier.

Another even safer approach would be for the Orthodox Church to actively market itself to ancient future congregations.  Also, we should publish service books targeting them.

One great example of a book I see being perfect for the ancient future set is Praying With The Orthodox Tradition, which features a forward by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware.  Its actually a bit novel, in that the hours in it are composed from prayers said by the priest or bishop in ancient and disused codices, prayers which are no longer used by the Eastern church but which were a part of its liturgical life 1200 years ago.

The book, along with A Psalter for Prayer, is one of the two most user friendly prayer books I have seen.  Both I believe would lend themselves to congregational use.

Now, this last bit may be controversial, but we've seen videos of Episcopalians and others attempting to celibrate our liturgy.  I think we should offer to help, using the fact that they want to use our prayers as an inroad to making contact; if the people in Episcopal or other churches start routinely using our liturgy, they will be more disposed to join our church, and their congregation or denomination will in a strict sense be engaging in more correct worship, albeit in a situation of ecclesiological and canonical irregularity. 

I think we should celibrate the fact that Byzantine icons are popping up in places like Westminster Abbey.  This is to our advantage.  The mainline churches and some evangelicals are becoming disposed to worship like we do.  We are getting into their hearts.  The situation is the exact opposite of that faced by the Oxford Movement of Anglo Catholics in the 1830s, when most Englishmen regarded rhe idea of the Mass as anathema; within 100 years, the Church of England had attempted to introduce a BCP reformed along Catholic lined, had large numbers of Anglo Catholic parishes, and even had parishes like St. Magnus the Martyr where the Roman mass was being said in Latin.  Today, one can say that throughout most of the Anglican Communion, Anglo Catholicism has won, and what today is considered low church Anglicanism would have been considered high church a century ago, with the exception of a few evangelical parishes which have gone the praise and worship route, like Holy Trinity Brampton.  High churchmanship is normative.

Also, huge numbers of English converted to Roman Catholicism, crossing the Tiber from Anglo Catholicism, a process which continues even today.


We face an infinitely better strategic situation in that people are actively copying and using our services and are trying to incorporate Eastern Christian "spirituality" into their parishes.  Some are praying the Jesus Prayer!  Look at the Anglican Rosary for an example.  They are using our icons and praying our prayers.

As i see it, we have two options: we can resent them for counterfeiting us and bogarting our style, or we can interpret this as an opportunity for evangelism, and seize rhe day in a positive way.  Surely the latter option is preferrable.
 

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Alpha60 said:
Agabus said:
Alpha60 said:
LBK said:
Alpha60 said:
The thought has entered into my mind to become a Protestant minister just to lead a congregation out of Protestantism and into Orthodoxy.  Likely in a Protestant church that is experimenting with the Emergent and Ancient Future concepts, perhaps a parish of the United Church of Christ, which is ultra liberal, theologically, but this open mindedness might make them receptive to Eastern theology and so on.  A parish like the ECUSA parish of St. Gregory of Nyssa in San Francisco might seem on the outside to be an easier target, but with the Episcopal church, the diocese owns all the buildings, whereas with a congregational church, the congregation owns it, and if you can persuade them to embrace Orthodoxy, they could leave the UCC or whatever group they are affiliated with to move to us.
So you'd consider apostasy to indulge in a flight of fancy which has every chance of failure. Hmmm.  :eek: :p ::)
No, because I would secretly remain Orthodox.  I would engage in dissimulation, in order to take the Protestant congregation into the Orthodox church.  And if the project looked to be a failure, I would abandon it.

Protestants have used these tactics against the Oriental Orthodox; I believe the Jesuits used these tactics for missionary purposes in several contexts; the real question is, is it ethical for Orthodox to engage in dissimulation to infiltrate heterodox churches and guide them into Orthodoxy?
Phrased another way: Is it ethical to deny Christ so that you can later praise him?
No.

However, consider this scenario:

I become the pastor of a congregational church interested in ancient-future worship.  In the process of doing this I openly state I am baptized Orthodox, and if pressed, would not deny being an Orthodox Christian.  In fact, I might advertise my Orthodoxy and my familiarity with the Orthodox liturgical rites in order to get hired as "their man" to get them the ancient-future worship they want.

Then, over the course of the following years, I would implement the Orthodox liturgy, while satisfying the future aspect by installing iPads in the pews to provide interactive devotional aids to the service.  I would seek to build a following.

Then, at an opportune moment, I would propose to the congregation that we join the Orthodox Church.  To make this appealing to the ancient-future set, I would describe the thrills of chrismation and the hierarchical divine liturgy, and also dissuade anyones fears about the church being less open or friendly to women by stressing the antidoron and reading plenty of Metropolitan Kallistos Ware.  Indeed we would study it actively in the years proceeding up to this.

I would also not formally renounce my membership of the Orthodox Church, and ideally, a bishop would approve of the plan as a prototype of a procedure designed to scoop ancienf-future and emergent congregations, which I believe are ripe for conversion, into Holy Orthodoxy.

This approach would avoid the dissimulation I mentioned earlier.
Phrased another way: Is it ethical to commit adultery if you have the proper clerical clearance and you eventually plan to make an honest woman of her?

Another even safer approach would be for the Orthodox Church to actively market itself to ancient future congregations.  Also, we should publish service books targeting them.
I'm super wary of any instance of "marketing" being introduced into the equation.

One great example of a book I see being perfect for the ancient future set is Praying With The Orthodox Tradition, which features a forward by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware.  Its actually a bit novel, in that the hours in it are composed from prayers said by the priest or bishop in ancient and disused codices, prayers which are no longer used by the Eastern church but which were a part of its liturgical life 1200 years ago.
Interesting, sure, but novel sounds like the right word.

I believe this is another instance where I think you've got a rosier view of liturgical tourism than I have. I also think you fundamentally misunderstand the Ancient-Future mindset.

I had a brief season in a sort of emerging SBC congregation (a brief, passing thing that had to do more with their pastoral flexibility at that time in my life rather than an attraction to their worship). My own experience says that interest in ancient forms is more in novelty than strict adherence to that which was passed down. If in their mind it helps, they'll hold onto it, but if it doesn't, there's no need to cleave to Tradition.

For example: I've seen numerous performances of Phos Hilaron by praise bands.  The age of the song gives it venerability, but they're not particularly interested in traditional renderings of it. And while incense -- for example -- may be used, nothing is censed.

Now, this last bit may be controversial, but we've seen videos of Episcopalians and others attempting to celibrate our liturgy.  I think we should offer to help, using the fact that they want to use our prayers as an inroad to making contact; if the people in Episcopal or other churches start routinely using our liturgy, they will be more disposed to join our church, and their congregation or denomination will in a strict sense be engaging in more correct worship, albeit in a situation of ecclesiological and canonical irregularity.

I think we should celibrate the fact that Byzantine icons are popping up in places like Westminster Abbey.  This is to our advantage.  The mainline churches and some evangelicals are becoming disposed to worship like we do.  We are getting into their hearts.  The situation is the exact opposite of that faced by the Oxford Movement of Anglo Catholics in the 1830s, when most Englishmen regarded rhe idea of the Mass as anathema; within 100 years, the Church of England had attempted to introduce a BCP reformed along Catholic lined, had large numbers of Anglo Catholic parishes, and even had parishes like St. Magnus the Martyr where the Roman mass was being said in Latin.  Today, one can say that throughout most of the Anglican Communion, Anglo Catholicism has won, and what today is considered low church Anglicanism would have been considered high church a century ago, with the exception of a few evangelical parishes which have gone the praise and worship route, like Holy Trinity Brampton.  High churchmanship is normative.
Anglo-Catholic liturgy has won.

The conservative Anglicans are still very much Protestants.

If they're going anywhere, the odds are 9:1 they're headed to Rome.

Also, huge numbers of English converted to Roman Catholicism, crossing the Tiber from Anglo Catholicism, a process which continues even today.
While I think you and I both have fairly soft views of the Roman schism, let's not pretend that it's equivalent, at least culturally, to convert to Rome versus the Russian exarchate attached to Constantinople or the Antiochian archdiocese.

We face an infinitely better strategic situation in that people are actively copying and using our services and are trying to incorporate Eastern Christian "spirituality" into their parishes.  Some are praying the Jesus Prayer!  Look at the Anglican Rosary for an example.  They are using our icons and praying our prayers.

As i see it, we have two options: we can resent them for counterfeiting us and bogarting our style, or we can interpret this as an opportunity for evangelism, and seize rhe day in a positive way.  Surely the latter option is preferrable.
The latter is preferable, and if the examples you cited are conversation starters, great. I just don't think they're the great foot in the door that you do.

Just FTR, I don't mean to sound like I'm pooh-poohing missionary work.
 

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We recognize some things in Orthodoxy as good and pious but there are some places we will never be willing to go.

Phos Hilaron through a praise band sounds dreadful but I guess it depends on the tune used and whether or not the lyrics are metrical.  I'm not a fan of praise bands in general, I'd rather have folk mass type worship if we went for something nontraditional.  But above all I just want it to not be a noisy mess.

In our church we sometimes use a Kyrie based off the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom's litany.  It never sounds quite right to me.  I wish we'ld avoid using it, in favor of other settings.  The mixing of words that are meant to have a penitential tone with a more modern type tempo and phrasing, even played on an organ, just is grating, it's like dousing the divine liturgy in saccharine.
 

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For example: I've seen numerous performances of Phos Hilaron by praise bands.  The age of the song gives it venerability, but they're not particularly interested in traditional renderings of it. And while incense -- for example -- may be used, nothing is censed.

I just saw a praise band version of phos hilaron on youtube, in one of those lyric video kind of stuff, I didn't like it, but I have never seen really old christian hymns being sung in modern versions here in Brazil, that trend didn't arrive here for now.

The only thing I remember seeing (but I never heard it live) in a old protestant hymnal was a picardy version of ''let all mortal flesh keep silence'', that was a very very old eucharistic hymn, but without the verses that have some idea of real presence.
 

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Daedelus1138 said:
We recognize some things in Orthodoxy as good and pious but there are some places we will never be willing to go.
Translation. Orthodoxy is the perfect religion brought be perfect God. Tricked by the devil we recognize some things in Orthodoxy as good and pious but there are some places we will never be willing to go and that can bring to us our own destruction and much pain.

We reject true teachings and go after false prophets to our own destruction.
Even if God made very c lear the gates of the Hell will never overcome the church we go after false prophets that contradict God saying Church of God has failed.
Even if Bible made clear in John 6:53 and John 6:54 that there is no lif without Holy Communion we g after false denominations that give us nothing and we remain dead. When the second death will come our false prophets wil run screaming and trying to hide and we will go after them screaming and in shock because we were fooled.
Even if Bible makes it clear that whaty you do comes back to you we don't realise that the lies we are spreading are coming back to hunt us and our next generations that may want truly to follow the truth.
W e dont relise tha t by taking people from Orthodox Church where they have life and ETERNAL LIFE to a church that does not have t we kill their next generations spreading death and death will come back to us and o our next generations to haunt us because Bible says wha you do comes back to you.
We are unable to understand that Orthodox Church gives life and eternal life and that by bringing people to Eastern Orthodox Church we practically give life and eternal life so as Bble say life and eternal life comes back to us and to the next generations and that when the death will hunt us or our close people we can go saying we brought so many life in this life thus life will come back and we will be able to get extensions for us and for our close people on the account of life coming back.
 

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Bible say be smart/.
SO be smart and bring truth and eternal life and blessings and truth and eternal life and blessings will come back.
 

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Don't spread death thinking you protect predecessors you love. What happens you spread dead and death comes back and you cvan not help predecesors.
By spreading life and eternal life, life and eternal life comes back and you can direct this at predecesors actively helping them.
 

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There is a oncen in lifetime opportunity to give life and eternal life to millions and billions of people so millions and billions of lifes and eternal lifes come back to you andf your succesors. Dont lose it and cash on it.
 

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pasadi97 said:
There is a oncen in lifetime opportunity to give life and eternal life to millions and billions of people so millions and billions of lifes and eternal lifes come back to you andf your succesors. Dont lose it and cash on it.
What?
 

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Don't you know you're wasting the bandwidth Biro paid for?  Seriously, Pasadi.

biro said:
pasadi97 said:
There is a oncen in lifetime opportunity to give life and eternal life to millions and billions of people so millions and billions of lifes and eternal lifes come back to you andf your succesors. Dont lose it and cash on it.
What?
 
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