• Please remember: Pray for Ukraine in the Prayer forum; Share news in the Christian News section; Discuss religious implications in FFA: Religious Topics; Discuss political implications in Politics (and if you don't have access, PM me) Thank you! + Fr. George, Forum Administrator

Russian language and its Ukrainian dialect

Vladik

High Elder
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
990
Reaction score
0
Points
0
This discussion has started here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,44668.msg748575.html#msg748575

Michał Kalina said:
Russian is a dialect of the Ukrainian.
No, and I'll tell you why:

ialmisry said:
Yeah, he thought Russian and Slavonic were the same language as well.  Also an error.
The fact is that Russian language is the direct succesor of Old Slavonic language, there is among other Slavic languages.

Trubetzkoy:
"Будучи модернизированной и обрусевшей формой церковнославянского языка, русский литературный язык является единственным прямым преемником общеславянской литературно-языковой традиции, ведущей свое начало от святых первоучителей славянских, т.е. от конца эпохи праславянского единства."
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/oboguev/images/nstslav.htm
 

Attachments

mike

Protostrator
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
24,873
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
31
Location
Białystok / Warsaw
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Diocese of Białystok and Gdańsk
<позіхає>
 

ialmisry

Strategos
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
41,967
Reaction score
173
Points
63
Location
Chicago
Why isn't this in politics?  Given its trolling political title?
 

ialmisry

Strategos
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
41,967
Reaction score
173
Points
63
Location
Chicago
Vladik said:
This discussion has started here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,44668.msg748575.html#msg748575

Michał Kalina said:
Russian is a dialect of the Ukrainian.
No, and I'll tell you why:

ialmisry said:
Yeah, he thought Russian and Slavonic were the same language as well.  Also an error.
The fact is that Russian language is the direct succesor of Old Slavonic language, there is among other Slavic languages.

Trubetzkoy:
"Будучи модернизированной и обрусевшей формой церковнославянского языка, русский литературный язык является единственным прямым преемником общеславянской литературно-языковой традиции, ведущей свое начало от святых первоучителей славянских, т.е. от конца эпохи праславянского единства."
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/oboguev/images/nstslav.htm
Alas for you, the Russian Church adopted the recension of Church Slavonic developed at Kiev under the auspices of St. Peter Movila, abandoning the Russian recension, which is preserved among the Old Ritualists.  This Kievan recension is what Lomonosov recognized as the "high Russian style" out of which came the Modern Standard Literary Russian.

Since New Church Slavonic is a recension of Old Church Slavonic is not Common Proto-Slavonic, but a South Slavic language, and Russian is an East Slavic language, the idea of Russian coming directly from Church Slavonic does not comport with the facts.

Btw, your chart is wrong: Ukrainian is NOT a West Slavic language.
 

Vladik

High Elder
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
990
Reaction score
0
Points
0
ialmisry said:
Btw, your chart is wrong: Ukrainian is NOT a West Slavic language.
According to Trubetzkoy, it is.

"Выдающийся лингвист Н.С. Трубецкой, различал народный украинский язык, который считал наречием русского языка, и литературный украинский язык, который считал искусственно созданным и относил к западнославянской языковой группе".
 

ialmisry

Strategos
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
41,967
Reaction score
173
Points
63
Location
Chicago
Vladik said:
ialmisry said:
Btw, your chart is wrong: Ukrainian is NOT a West Slavic language.
According to Trubetzkoy, it is.

"Выдающийся лингвист Н.С. Трубецкой, различал народный украинский язык, который считал наречием русского языка, и литературный украинский язык, который считал искусственно созданным и относил к западнославянской языковой группе".
Trubetzkoy is wrong, if that was his view.  Btw, instead of citing something ABOUT Trubetzkoy, why don't you try quoting him, as I linked in the other thread?

If Ukrainian is West Slavic, then it cannot be a dialect derived from Russian, an East Slavic language.  Contradicting your assertions, let alone the facts, again, Vlad.
 

Vladik

High Elder
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
990
Reaction score
0
Points
0
ialmisry said:
Why isn't this in politics?  Given its trolling political title?
Why I've got to "split" all offtopic by my own?

BTW, there was in the Orthodox Russian Empire, the Ukrainian considered as a dialect of the Russian, and the only Communists (among whom there was a lot of Ukrainian nationalists) changed this situation.
Thus, those who consider Ukrainian langauge as a seperate one from the Russian language are Communists. ;D
 

Vladik

High Elder
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
990
Reaction score
0
Points
0
ialmisry said:
If Ukrainian is West Slavic, then it cannot be a dialect derived from Russian, an East Slavic language.  Contradicting your assertions, let alone the facts, again, Vlad.
Don't you understand the quotation in Russian? He said, that Ukrainian literary language had been deliberately and artificially created as a West Slavic, but informal Ukrainian speech had remained a dialect of the Russian language.

And the creation of that artificial literary language is well known in history, try to google it.
 

LizaSymonenko

Hoplitarches
Staff member
Global Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
16,704
Reaction score
653
Points
113
Location
Detroit
Website
uocofusa.org
Faith
Orthodox
Jurisdiction
Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Blah, blah, blah....
 

ialmisry

Strategos
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
41,967
Reaction score
173
Points
63
Location
Chicago
Vladik said:
ialmisry said:
Why isn't this in politics?  Given its trolling political title?
Why I've got to "split" all offtopic by my own?

BTW, there was in the Orthodox Russian Empire, the Ukrainian considered as a dialect of the Russian, and the only Communists (among whom there was a lot of Ukrainian nationalists) changed this situation.
Thus, those who consider Ukrainian langauge as a seperate one from the Russian language are Communists. ;D
Assertions from your own imaginary world doesn't affect the facts in the real world here.

Yeah, that communist cell, Brotherhood of Saints Cyril and Methodius, founded even before the Communist Manifesto.  You should be happen about the Ukrainians then, and embrace Ukrainian as a manifestation of the Soviet spirit. ::)
 

Vladik

High Elder
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
990
Reaction score
0
Points
0
ialmisry said:
Alas for you, the Russian Church adopted the recension of Church Slavonic developed at Kiev under the auspices of St. Peter Movila
Nope, that was the mixing of Kievan and Moscovite (shared by the Old Ritualists) traditions by Nikon.
Then this mixing gave birth to the Russian language.

is not Common Proto-Slavonic, but a South Slavic language
Doesn't matter. The Church Slavonic is the Общеславянская литературно-языковая традиция (The literary and linguistic tradition, common for all Slavs). It is the root of the Slavic literacy.
 

ialmisry

Strategos
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
41,967
Reaction score
173
Points
63
Location
Chicago
Vladik said:
ialmisry said:
If Ukrainian is West Slavic, then it cannot be a dialect derived from Russian, an East Slavic language.  Contradicting your assertions, let alone the facts, again, Vlad.
Don't you understand the quotation in Russian?
Don't you understand what a quotation is, in Russian or English?

Vladik said:
no, you quote someone saying he said.  Or did Trubetzkoy, with exceeding modesty, call himself "the outstanding linquist"?
Vladik said:
that Ukrainian literary language had been deliberately and artificially created as a West Slavic, but informal Ukrainian speech had remained a dialect of the Russian language.
LOL.  So just by being able to speak and write Ukrainian, every Ukrainian is ipso facto bilingual.

The Pomeranian Germans use the German literary language which has been deliberately and artifically created as a High German language, by those whose informal speech, e.g. by Siebs, ironically but naturally came from a Low German area.  That didn't make Plattdeutsch a Hochdeutsch dialect, though it did make it a German dialect.

Vladik said:
And the creation of that artificial literary language is well known in history, try to google it.
Don't have to.  I know the facts.  The artificial Russian literary language was derived from the recension of Church Slavonic the Ukrainians created, a fact well know to history.

The Ukrainian Impact on Russian Culture, 1750-1850
By David Saunders
http://books.google.com/books?id=hz3T6ucg58EC&pg=PA53&dq=Peter+Russian+Church+Ukrainian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BGy2T9WyKoGbgwfe8IiiCg&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Peter%20Russian%20Church%20Ukrainian&f=false
 

Vladik

High Elder
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
990
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Vladik said:
And the creation of that artificial literary language is well known in history, try to google it.
For instance:

..."Иван Семенович Левицкий. Широкая публика знала его под псевдонимом Нечуй-Левицкий. Известный украинский писатель в независимой Украине по праву должен был пользоваться почетом и уважением. Между тем умер Нечуй-Левицкий в полной нищете в одной из киевских богаделен.

Как же так получилось? У власти стояли люди, называвшие себя патриотами. Их прямой обязанностью было позаботиться о человеке, чьи произведения являлись украшением украинской литературы. Вместо этого писатель оказался лишен всех средств к существованию. А ведь Михаил Грушевский был лично обязан Ивану Семеновичу. В свое время именно Нечуй-Левицкий взял под свое покровительство тогда еще никому не известного гимназиста, стал его наставником в литературных занятиях, рекомендовал к печати первые произведения будущего главы украинского государства. И теперь такая неблагодарность. Почему?

Биографы писателя, как правило, обходят этот вопрос. Говорят лишь, что время тогда было тяжелое, что печальная судьба — умереть в нищете — характерна для многих выдающихся людей… Общие, ничего не объясняющие фразы. Но объяснение все-таки есть.

Язык как яблоко раздора

Ключ к разгадке — ссора между Грушевским и Нечуем-Левицким. Произошла она из-за расхождений по вопросу, который, казалось бы, споров у них вызывать не должен. По вопросу об украинском языке.

Как известно, вплоть до революции 1917 года во всех сферах общественной жизни Украины (кроме западной ее части, входившей в состав Австро-Венгрии) господствовал русский язык. Для культурных украинцев он был родным. Люди же малообразованные говорили на местных просторечиях, лексикон которых ограничивался минимумом, необходимым в сельском быту. Если возникала потребность затронуть в разговоре тему, выходившую за рамки обыденности, простолюдины черпали недостающие слова из языка образованного общества, то есть из русского.

Все это не нравилось деятелям украинского движения (украинофилам). Они (в том числе Нечуй-Левицкий и Грушевский) считали необходимым вырабатывать, в противовес русскому, самостоятельный украинский язык. Однако при этом Иван Семенович был уверен, что вырабатывать язык следует на народной основе, опираясь на сельские говоры Центральной и Восточной Украины. А вот его бывший ученик стоял на иной позиции. Перебравшись в 1894 году на жительство в австрийскую Галицию, Михаил Грушевский завязал тесные контакты с тамошними украинофилами. У последних был свой взгляд на языковой вопрос. По их мнению, говоры российской Украины являлись сильно русифицированными, а потому недостойными стать основой украинского литературного языка. При издании в Галиции сочинений украинских писателей из России (Коцюбинского, Кулиша, Нечуя-Левицкого) народные слова беспощадно выбрасывались, если такие же (или похожие) слова употреблялись в русской речи. Выброшенное заменялось заимствованиями из польского, немецкого, других языков, а то и просто выдуманными словами. Таким образом, галицкие украинофилы создавали "самостоятельный украинский язык". В это языкотворчество включился и Грушевский.

Поначалу ничто не предвещало разрыва с Нечуем-Левицким. Иван Семенович тоже считал нужным "бороться с русификацией", даже благодарил Грушевского за "исправление ошибок" в своих произведениях. Однако "исправлений" становилось все больше. Получалась уже не чистка от "русизмов", а подмена всего языка. Писатель обратился к галичанам с просьбой умерить пыл. Но от него отмахнулись.

Неизвестно, чем бы закончилась эта история, если бы не перемены в России. В 1905 году был отменен запрет на издание украиноязычной прессы. "Национально сознательные" галичане сочли, что настал момент для распространения своего языка на всю Украину. С этой целью стали открываться газеты, журналы, книгоиздательства. "Языковой поход" на восток возглавил Грушевский. Тут и выяснилось, что создавать язык на бумаге легче, чем навязывать его людям. Такая "рідна мова" с огромным количеством польских, немецких и выдуманных слов еще могла кое-как существовать в Галиции, где украинцы жили бок о бок с поляками и немцами. В российской Украине галицкое "творение" восприняли как абракадабру. Печатавшиеся на ней книги и прессу местные жители просто не могли читать. "В начале 1906 года почти в каждом большом городе Украины начали выходить под разными названиями газеты на украинском языке, — вспоминал один из наиболее деятельных украинофилов Юрий Сирый (Тищенко). — К сожалению, большинство тех попыток и предприятий заканчивались полным разочарованием издателей, были ли то отдельные лица или коллективы, и издание, увидев свет, уже через несколько номеров, а то и после первого, кануло в Лету"...
http://dragonmoonbird.livejournal.com/14289.html
 

jmbejdl

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Jan 28, 2005
Messages
1,480
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
46
Location
Aylesbury
This argument reminds me of the communists attempting to convince the Bessarabians that they spoke a Slav language called Moldovan rather than the Latin Romanian that they clearly did (and do) speak after the USSR annexed the region. It's nothing more than politically motivated pseudo-linguistics. There is no distinct point at which a dialect of one language becomes a separate language and every language starts out as a dialect of another. Dialects within one language can diverge more from each other than some languages do. Even if Ukrainian began life as a dialect of Russian (not an unreasonable suggestion to make - although, even without knowing the specifics, Russian linguistic development not being something I've specifically studied, I'd wager that it's more likely modern Russian and modern Ukrainian share an ancestor that is not identical to either) that would in no way preclude it from now being a separate language.

James
 

ialmisry

Strategos
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
41,967
Reaction score
173
Points
63
Location
Chicago
Vladik said:
ialmisry said:
Alas for you, the Russian Church adopted the recension of Church Slavonic developed at Kiev under the auspices of St. Peter Movila
Nope, that was the mixing of Kievan and Moscovite (shared by the Old Ritualists) traditions by Nikon.
Then this mixing gave birth to the Russian language.
Nope.  Moscow didn't go into labor with the Russian language until the time of Czar Peter, who handed the Church over to the Kievans, and Russian wasn't born until Puskhin delivered it, over a century after the Ukrainians directed the "высо́кий стиль "high style."

Vladik said:
ialmisry said:
is not Common Proto-Slavonic, but a South Slavic language
Doesn't matter. The Church Slavonic is the Общеславянская литературно-языковая традиция (The literary and linguistic tradition, common for all Slavs). It is the root of the Slavic literacy.
So Russian is just a dialect of Macedonian.
 

Vladik

High Elder
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
990
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Vladik said:
Vladik said:
And the creation of that artificial literary language is well known in history, try to google it.
http://dragonmoonbird.livejournal.com/14289.html
So, in short there is said that Hrushevskyi had substituted the majority of Russian words for Polish and German ones there was in Ukrainian literary language, being in Lemberg. That's why he fell out with his teacher Nechuy-Levytsky (a Ukrainian nationalist who wanted making the substitution for Ukrainian words). That's why the modern Ukrainian literary language is so non-Ukrainian.
 

ialmisry

Strategos
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
41,967
Reaction score
173
Points
63
Location
Chicago
Vladik said:
Vladik said:
And the creation of that artificial literary language is well known in history, try to google it.
For instance:
unless it is Trubetzkoy's (whom I do not see in your exerpt, have you abandoned him as an authority?) blog, don't bother us with it.
 

ialmisry

Strategos
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
41,967
Reaction score
173
Points
63
Location
Chicago
Vladik said:
Vladik said:
Vladik said:
And the creation of that artificial literary language is well known in history, try to google it.
http://dragonmoonbird.livejournal.com/14289.html
So, in short there is said that Hrushevskyi had substituted the majority of Russian words for Polish and German ones there was in Ukrainian literary language, being in Lemberg. That's why he fell out with his teacher Nechuy-Levytsky (a Ukrainian nationalist who wanted making the substitution for Ukrainian words). That's why the modern Ukrainian literary language is so non-Ukrainian.
I guess, given the number of German and French (and Latin) words after Czar Peter, on that basis you believe that Russian is a Germanic Romance dialect of German and French.

It's L'viv, btw.
 

Vladik

High Elder
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
990
Reaction score
0
Points
0
ialmisry said:
I guess, given the number of German and French (and Latin) words after Czar Peter, on that basis you believe that Russian is a Germanic Romance dialect of German and French.
Is there 70% of German/French words in the Russian? I guess a few hundreds.
Gruszewsky (Hrushevskyi) tried to get rid of the Russian words by any means, so in our days there is 70% of Polish words in the Ukrainian literary language (!). But when Gruszewsky started printing his books, almost nobody understood them. 
 

ialmisry

Strategos
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
41,967
Reaction score
173
Points
63
Location
Chicago
Vladik said:
ialmisry said:
I guess, given the number of German and French (and Latin) words after Czar Peter, on that basis you believe that Russian is a Germanic Romance dialect of German and French.
Is there 70% of German/French words in the Russian? I guess a few hundreds.
Gruszewsky (Hrushevskyi) tried to get rid of the Russian words by any means, so in our days there is 70% of Polish words in the Ukrainian literary language (!). But when Gruszewsky started printing his books, almost nobody understood them. 
70%, huh?  You sure you haven't lost count, or just don't know Ukrainian nor Polish?

Your substantiation of this "70%" figure?  It doesn't seem to comport with the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine.

Nobody?  You mean nobody Russian?  Even that is far fetched, as, in the parent thread show, we have experiences of Poles, Ukrainians, and Russians speaking to each other in their own language.
 

ialmisry

Strategos
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
41,967
Reaction score
173
Points
63
Location
Chicago
Vladik said:
ialmisry said:
I guess, given the number of German and French (and Latin) words after Czar Peter, on that basis you believe that Russian is a Germanic Romance dialect of German and French.
Is there 70% of German/French words in the Russian? I guess a few hundreds.
Gruszewsky (Hrushevskyi) tried to get rid of the Russian words by any means, so in our days there is 70% of Polish words in the Ukrainian literary language (!). But when Gruszewsky started printing his books, almost nobody understood them. 
btw
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Swadesh_lists_for_Slavic_languages
 

Vladik

High Elder
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
990
Reaction score
0
Points
0
ialmisry said:
Your substantiation of this "70%" figure?  It doesn't seem to comport with the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine.
"С точки зрения лексики ближайшим к украинскому является белорусский язык (84 % общей лексики), затем польский (70 % общей лексики), словацкий (68 % общей лексики) и русский язык (62 % общей лексики)"
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%8F%D0%B7%D1%8B%D0%BA
 

Vladik

High Elder
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
990
Reaction score
0
Points
0
ialmisry said:
Nope.  Moscow didn't go into labor with the Russian language until the time of Czar Peter, who handed the Church over to the Kievans
Right, but the creation of the secular Russian started with the creation of the new alphabet in 1708. Since then the Russian had been seperated from Church Slavonic.
The Kievans took Church and Church Slavonic in 1750.

So Russian is just a dialect of Macedonian.
No, because the Russian and Macedonian dialect of the Bulgarian don't have the same syntax.
 

Vladik

High Elder
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
990
Reaction score
0
Points
0
ialmisry said:
That didn't make Plattdeutsch a Hochdeutsch dialect, though it did make it a German dialect.
Plattdeutsch and Hochdeutsch  share the same German syntax. Thus they are dialects of the German.
Ukrainian, Belarusian and Russian languages also share the same syntax. Thus they are some dialects of the one language with different lexicons.
 

ialmisry

Strategos
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
41,967
Reaction score
173
Points
63
Location
Chicago
Vladik said:
ialmisry said:
That didn't make Plattdeutsch a Hochdeutsch dialect, though it did make it a German dialect.
Plattdeutsch and Hochdeutsch  share the same German syntax. Thus they are dialects of the German.
So does Dutch and Frisian, and yet they are not dialects of German.

Vladik said:
Ukrainian, Belarusian and Russian languages also share the same syntax. Thus they are some dialects of the one language with different lexicons.
You would be hard pressed to distinguish them from the syntax of Polish.  Maybe they are all Polish dialects.
 

ialmisry

Strategos
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
41,967
Reaction score
173
Points
63
Location
Chicago
Vladik said:
ialmisry said:
Your substantiation of this "70%" figure?  It doesn't seem to comport with the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine.
"С точки зрения лексики ближайшим к украинскому является белорусский язык (84 % общей лексики), затем польский (70 % общей лексики), словацкий (68 % общей лексики) и русский язык (62 % общей лексики)"
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D1%8F%D0%B7%D1%8B%D0%BA
I don't see any source there.  I don't know if wikipedia counted all the words, or any words.

I linked the Swadesh lists. You can count them yourself
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Swadesh_lists_for_Slavic_languages
 

ialmisry

Strategos
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
41,967
Reaction score
173
Points
63
Location
Chicago
Vladik said:
ialmisry said:
Nope.  Moscow didn't go into labor with the Russian language until the time of Czar Peter, who handed the Church over to the Kievans
Right, but the creation of the secular Russian started with the creation of the new alphabet in 1708. Since then the Russian had been seperated from Church Slavonic.
The Kievans took Church and Church Slavonic in 1750.
The Kievan took over the Church in 1686.  The implementation of the Spiritual Regulations was dominated by Ukrainians (1700-1750 the Ukrainian bishops outnumbered the Russian almost 2 to 1).

 

Vladik

High Elder
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
990
Reaction score
0
Points
0
ialmisry said:
So does Dutch and Frisian, and yet they are not dialects of German.
Honestly, they are dialects of German; Politically, they ain't.

Vladik said:
You would be hard pressed to distinguish them from the syntax of Polish.  Maybe they are all Polish dialects.
I speak a little Polish, so I know Polish has gotten another syntax.
 

mike

Protostrator
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
24,873
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
31
Location
Białystok / Warsaw
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Diocese of Białystok and Gdańsk
Калі, вашым меркаваннем, беларуская і расейская мовы - тая ж самая мова, давайце  пагаворым па-беларуску.
 

Vladik

High Elder
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
990
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Michał Kalina said:
Калі, вашым меркаваннем, беларуская і расейская мовы - тая ж самая мова, давайце  пагаворым па-беларуску.
Немного не так, я сказал, что это разные диалекты одного языка.
Ну давайте, только я буду говорить на петербургском диалекте (на котором говорю в быту), а вы (как предполагаю) на западно-беларуском диалекте нашего общего языка. И мы друг-друга поймем.  Если вам не нравится название "русский язык", можете придумать другое (например руський язык), но сути это не изменит.
А вот говорить только на западно-беларуском или только питерском - мы не сможем. На то они разные диалекты.

BTW, the Belorusian/Kievan dialect is more understandable for a Moscovite, than the Siberian one.  

 

ialmisry

Strategos
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
41,967
Reaction score
173
Points
63
Location
Chicago
Vladik said:
ialmisry said:
So does Dutch and Frisian, and yet they are not dialects of German.
Honestly, they are dialects of German; Politically, they ain't.
No, they aren't.  Honestly.  Same with Afrikaans, which has been a separate language for a century.

Vladik said:
ialmisry said:
You would be hard pressed to distinguish them from the syntax of Polish.  Maybe they are all Polish dialects.
I speak a little Polish, so I know Polish has gotten another syntax.
I'd defer to someone with superior knowledge, which evidently excludes you, but I don't find the difference between Polish and the East Slavic languages (not, notice, Russian, or "East Slavic") in the syntax.
 

Vladik

High Elder
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
990
Reaction score
0
Points
0
ialmisry said:
I'd defer to someone with superior knowledge, which evidently excludes you, but I don't find the difference between Polish and the East Slavic languages (not, notice, Russian, or "East Slavic") in the syntax.
Are you kidding me? Do you spek Polish?

Here is a noun declension in Ukrainian and Russian:

Ukr:
кто, что? кошка
кого, чего? кошки
кому, чему? кошці
кого, что? кошку
кем, чем? кошкою
о ком, о чём? о кошці
О кошко

Rus:
кто, что? кошка
кого, чего? кошки
кому, чему? кошке
кого, что? кошку
кем, чем? кошкой
о ком, о чём? о кошке
[О кошка (кошко)]

They are the same! And compare it with the Polish declension:

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Polish/Noun_cases
 

mike

Protostrator
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
24,873
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
31
Location
Białystok / Warsaw
Faith
Christian
Jurisdiction
Diocese of Białystok and Gdańsk
kto? co? kotka
kogo? czego? kotki
komu? czemu? kotce
kogo? co? kotkę
kim? czym? kotką
o kim? o czym? o kotce?
o! kotko
 

Azurestone

Protokentarchos
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
3,940
Reaction score
12
Points
38
Faith
Catholic
Jurisdiction
FSSP
You people talk funny. You ain't from around here, are ya?
 

ialmisry

Strategos
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Messages
41,967
Reaction score
173
Points
63
Location
Chicago
Vladik said:
ialmisry said:
I'd defer to someone with superior knowledge, which evidently excludes you, but I don't find the difference between Polish and the East Slavic languages (not, notice, Russian, or "East Slavic") in the syntax.
Are you kidding me? Do you spek Polish?

Here is a noun declension in Ukrainian and Russian:

Ukr:
кто, что? кошка
кого, чего? кошки
кому, чему? кошці
кого, что? кошку
кем, чем? кошкою
о ком, о чём? о кошці
О кошко

Rus:
кто, что? кошка
кого, чего? кошки
кому, чему? кошке
кого, что? кошку
кем, чем? кошкой
о ком, о чём? о кошке
[О кошка (кошко)]

They are the same! And compare it with the Polish declension:

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Polish/Noun_cases
that is declension. Not syntax.

btw, as for Polish:
kto co kotka
kogo czego kotki
komu czemu kotce
kogo co kotkę
kim czym kotką
o kim czym kotce
kto co kotko

btw, work on your Ukrainian: the word for cat is  кішка or  кіт.  the o,e>i shift is one of the characteristics of Ukrainian.  And Ukrainian has no "ё." And що is the word for "what."  And хто means "who" in Ukrainian.
 

Vladik

High Elder
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
990
Reaction score
0
Points
0
ialmisry said:
that is declension. Not syntax.
We say: "a black cat", or "a cat black" (черный кот, кот черный) and that's correctly there is in Russian\Ukrainian\Belorusian language.
But that's wouldn't be correctly there is in Polish, since the Poles say only: "a cat black" (kot czarny)
An adjective is always after a noun. That's why the syntaxes are different there is in Russian and Polish.
 
Top