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Salvation outside the church?

TruthSeeker

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What is the orthodox opinion of the fate of those that have not had the chance to hear the gospel and to be a part of the body of Christ? Not all are fortunate enough to have  be en exposed to the truth? I know that officially the church thinks that is possible for the heterodox to be saved, but what about those that know nothing of Christ?

Is there an "official stance" taken on this........or is orthodoxy silent on this matter?

If they are judged by their works and can attain to salvation in this way then why was there a need for Christ to come to this earth? They cannot experience synergy because this can only happen through faith in Christ.

 

Beavis

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I think the "official stance" is to be silent.  There are, however, some  which step out their bounds and pretend to know the mind of God and Whom He decides to save (i.e. Fr. Seraphim Rose, ROAC, etc.).
 

ozgeorge

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Beavis said:
I think the "official stance" is to be silent. There are, however, some which step out their bounds and pretend to know the mind of God and Whom He decides to save (i.e. Fr. Seraphim Rose, ROAC, etc.).
Could you please point out where Fr. Seraphim Rose holds an extreme view of no salvation outside the Church?
 

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How does someone compare Fr. Seraphim to ROAC, when Fr. Seraphim preached against super-correctness and schisms so much?ÂÂ
 

TruthSeeker

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How can a man be saved outside of Christ and his body, the church?


"Remember that at one time you Gentiles … were without Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world" (Eph. 2:11,12).


1 John 5:12: "...he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."

Acts 4:12: "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved"

John 3:18: "...whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

John 3:3: "...no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

How can one be born again without knowing Christ? How can one REALLY know Christ without a participation in his body on earth...the church?

And through the church the grace of God is given most strongly through the sacraments.....

This is why the church is here....to help save souls through Gods grace and faith in Christ and a great part of this comes through participation within the body of Christ.



As for me I "think" that nobody is saved outside the body of Christ . Yet only God knows for sure.
 

ozgeorge

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TruthSeeker said:
only God knows for sure.
I agree with this 100%.
The rest is none of our business.

I think of it this way: There is no other sure means of Salvation outside the Church. This does not preclude the possibility that God saves those outside the Church by other means. But if you know the sure path, you'd be a fool not to take it, and you would be culpable if you knew the sure path and refused to take it.
 

TruthSeeker

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ozgeorge said:
I agree with this 100%.
The rest is none of our business.

I think of it this way: There is no other sure means of Salvation outside the Church. This does not preclude the possibility that God saves those outside the Church by other means. But if you know the sure path, you'd be a fool not to take it, and you would be culpable if you knew the sure path and refused to take it.



I can agree with you on that.

But yet I for one have NO hope outside of Christ and his body...that much I do know for sure.  And me thinks that neither did Paul or the 12 have any hope either.........and dare I say that all the fathers would say that they too had no hope without Christ and his body.

 

Silouan

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But yet I for one have NO hope outside of Christ and his body...that much I do know for sure.  And me thinks that neither did Paul or the 12 have any hope either.........and dare I say that all the fathers would say that they too had no hope without Christ and his body.
Here is what I think the Church has always taught:

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;  (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. "

From Saint Paul's letter to the Romans. 
 

Beavis

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Ever read "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future"?  As much as I respect Fr. Seraphim Rose for his work on toll-houses, this book made my respect for him dive a little.  This book ("O.R.F."), I thought, was quite clear on the eternal fate of those who are not Orthodox.
 

ozgeorge

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Beavis said:
Ever read "Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future"?  As much as I respect Fr. Seraphim Rose for his work on toll-houses, this book made my respect for him dive a little.  This book ("O.R.F."), I thought, was quite clear on the eternal fate of those who are not Orthodox.
Firstly, ORF deals with the religion of Antichrist, and the apostasy which leads up to it. It discusses the false religions which the evil one inspires in men. Salvation can hardly come from the devil.
Secondly, I can't recall anywhere in ORF where Fr. Seraphim Rose expounds on the eternal perdition of those outside the Church. Perhaps I missed something? Could you be more specific?
 

Silouan

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A page number and a precise quote would be nice.  I've read that book many times...

Also it should be noted that disagreeing with someone does not mean condemning them to hell.  Forgive them for they know not what they do has a lot of power in it...
 

Asteriktos

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Truthseeker

This article by Met. Philaret might be of some help. I have linked to this article numerous times, but I always go back to it because Met. Philaret is remembered as a very conservative or traditional Orthodox hierarch, so he is above the accusation of being a modernist or ecumenist, which sometimes unfortunately gets lobbed at other writers when they say things similar to what Met. Philaret says in that article.
 

germanus

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A wise father said to me once, "You are responsible for the information you have been given. To do with it what you know in your heart is the right thing to do." This was in regaurds to the question I had asked him..."Are there those who will be saved outside the body of Christ?"  If the path to salvation has been revealed to you, and you chose not to follow it, then you have chosen to seperate yourself from the Father and his grace. But each man is given what he can grasp, it is his choice to take it or not.
 
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