Scientist confirms inexplicable nature of Our Lady of Guadalupe image

lubeltri

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Our Lady of Guadalupe ‘completely beyond' scientific explanation, says researcher

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=16789

Phoenix, Ariz., Aug 7, 2009 / 04:10 pm (CNA).- Researcher and physicist Dr. Aldofo Orozco told participants at the International Marian Congress on Our Lady of Guadalupe that there is no scientific explanation for the 478 years of high quality-preservation of the Tilma or for the miracles that have occurred to ensure its preservation.

Dr. Orozco began his talk by confirming that the conservation of the Tilma, the cloak of St. Juan Diego on which Our Lady of Guadalupe appeared 478 years ago, “is completely beyond any scientific explanation.”

“All the cloths similar to the Tilma that have been placed in the salty and humid environment around the Basilica have lasted no more than ten years,” he explained.  One painting of the miraculous image, created in 1789, was on display in a church near the basilica where the Tilma was placed.  “This painting was made with the best techniques of its time, the copy was beautiful and made with a fabric very similar to that of the Tilma. Also, the image was protected with a glass since it was first placed there.”

However, eight years later, the copy of the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe was thrown away because the colors were fading and threads were breaking.  In contrast, Orozco said, “the original Tilma was exposed for approximately 116 years without any kind of protection, receiving all the infrared and ultraviolet radiation from the tens of thousands of candles near it and exposed to the humid and salty air around the temple.”

Dr. Orozco then discussed the Tilma’s fabric.  He noted that “one of the most bizarre characteristics of the cloth is that the back side is rough and coarse, but the front side is ‘as soft as the most pure silk, as noted by painters and scientists in 1666, and confirmed one century later in 1751 by the Mexican painter, Miguel Cabrera.”

Following an analysis of some of the fibers in 1946, it was concluded that the fibers came from the Agave plant, however, noted Dr. Orozco, the researchers couldn’t figure out which of the 175 Agave species the Tilma was made from.  Years later, in 1975, “the famous Mexican researcher Ernesto Sodi Pallares said that the species of the agave was Agave popotule Zacc,” Orozco explained, “but we don’t know how he reached this conclusion.”

Before concluding his presentation, Dr. Orozco made mention of two miracles associated with the Tilma.

The first occurred in 1785 when a worker accidentally spilled a 50 percent nitric acid solvent on the right side of the cloth.  “Besides any natural explanation, the acid has not destroyed the fabric of the cloth, indeed it has not even destroyed the colored parts of the image,” Orozco said.

The second miracle was the explosion of a bomb near the Tilma in 1921.  Dr. Orozco recalled that the explosion broke the marble floor and widows 150 meters from the explosion, but “unexpectedly, neither the Tilma nor the normal glass that protected the Tilma was damaged or broken.”  The only damage near it was a brass crucifix that was twisted by the blast.

He continued, “There are no explanations why the shockwave that broke windows 150 meters afar did not destroy the normal glass that protected the image. Some people said that the Son by means of the brass crucifix protected the image of His Mother. The real fact is that we don’t have a natural explanation for this event.”

Dr. Orozco thanked the audience for listening to his presentation and closed by reassuring them that “Our Lady visited Mexico 478 years ago, but she remains there to give Her Love, Her Mercy and Her Care to anyone who needs it, and to bring Her Son, Jesus Christ to everyone who receives Him.”
 

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What is the position of the Orthodox Church on the veneration of this image?

Is the Guadalupe image venerated as an Icon by Orthodox believers in Mexico?
 

ag_vn

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What is the position of the Orthodox Church on the veneration of this image?

Is the Guadalupe image venerated as an Icon by Orthodox believers in Mexico?
Although it is depicted in the Antiochian monastery of St. Anthony the Great in Mexico, I'm not sure that it is actually venerated as an icon by the Orthodox there.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8135007@N03/2249351542/sizes/m/in/set-72157603790788629/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8135007@N03/2261240877/sizes/m/in/set-72157603790788629/
 

stashko

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Curious ,,Didn't the Ecumenical Patriarch venerate it when he visited  Mexico...Thank God he doesn't set the trend for all the orthodox faithful...I don't accept or believe in that image.....It could be a creation of the devil though ...
 

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Here are some pictures from his visit in the Cathedral of Our Lady of Guadalupe.




 

John Larocque

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Some believe that Juan Diego never existed and therefore the picture is not of a supernatural character.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1252/is_12_129/ai_87869035/

This is one of those things where the church claims infallibility but this is a pill I've never chosen to swallow.

Do Orthodox venerate St. Philemona? This is a very early saint (venerated by the Cure d'Ars, John Vianney) for which there is a body of work challenging its historicity.
 

Aristocles

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ialmisry said:
Αριστοκλής said:
Interesting manner in which to "venerate" the image.  ::)
How so?
I somehow do not equate grasping a framed image with both hands and holding the image up to examine as "veneration".
 

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Looks to me like he's giving the Latins a  Orthodox Pope Benediction with that Questionable Image ........Hummmmmm
That saying a Picture taken says a thousand words or more .And He's wearing his mantija in that lower  picture....
 

Rastaman

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stashko said:
Looks to me like he's giving the Latins a  Orthodox Pope Benediction with that Questionable Image ........Hummmmmm
That saying a Picture taken says a thousand words or more ....
Oh give it a rest already...
 

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stashko said:
Curious ,,Didn't the Ecumenical Patriarch venerate it when he visited  Mexico...Thank God he doesn't set the trend for all the orthodox faithful...I don't accept or believe in that image.....It could be a creation of the devil though ...
.....EP even offered candle to the heretic phantasma of Lourdes, I do not know if he really believe that this phantasma is"immaculada concepciou",and Theotokos.
Anyway,this is not the worst thing he ever did,we are so sinful,not worthy to have a better EP.If o Theos sent us an angel-like、saintly、orthodox EP,maybe we would  murder him——like the unworthy monks did to St.Benedictus.
 

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Elpidophoros said:
.....EP even offered candle to the heretic phantasma of Lourdes, I do not know if he really believe that this phantasma is"immaculada concepciou",and Theotokos.
By saying that She is "immaculada concepciou", this phantasma, as you call Her, didn't mean Her conception but Christ's. The date of the apparition proves that.
 

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lubeltri said:
stashko said:
It could be a creation of the devil though ...
Indeed, the devil always loves to foment fervent devotion to Christ and Our Lady.
Exactly,like "Sacra Cor"and many other horrible and bloody cults——the diabolus is not a good aesthete.
 

Elpidophoros

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Michał said:
Elpidophoros said:
.....EP even offered candle to the heretic phantasma of Lourdes, I do not know if he really believe that this phantasma is"immaculada concepciou",and Theotokos.
By saying that She is "immaculada concepciou", this phantasma, as you call Her, didn't mean Her conception but Christ's. The date of the apparition proves that.
What???Are you kidding....??
 

LBK

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Robb said:
What is the position of the Orthodox Church on the veneration of this image?

Is the Guadalupe image venerated as an Icon by Orthodox believers in Mexico?
The image of Our Lady of Guadelupe is not part of Orthodox tradition, there is no feast-day appointed in any Orthodox calendar or menaion for this image's liturgical veneration, and there are no liturgical texts (not even a troparion or kontakion) associated with it. In short, the Guadelupe image cannot be venerated as an icon by Orthodox believers.
 

Alveus Lacuna

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LBK said:
The image of Our Lady of Guadelupe is not part of Orthodox tradition, there is no feast-day appointed in any Orthodox calendar or menaion for this image's liturgical veneration, and there are no liturgical texts (not even a troparion or kontakion) associated with it. In short, the Guadelupe image cannot be venerated as an icon by Orthodox believers.
But do you really think that the Orthodox monastery in Mexico is in the wrong by depicting the image among its frescoes?

I can understand why the Christians of Mexico would not want to abandon this image of the Theotokos, as it is a large part of their history and national identity.  It is a bit of a conundrum and presents several dilemmas, but I am not wholly convinced that the image should be abandoned entirely.  Perhaps it could be modified to meet Orthodox iconographic standards, but still retain enough of a likeness to be identified by the Christians of Mexico.
 

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One can create any image in the form of written icon ,but it doesn't make it a true ikona worthy of veneration...curious...
Didn't the spaniards abuse and massacre plenty of the natives there and in south americas ,doing it for the pope and the catholic church in speading the faith....
Legends of Guadalupe http://books.google.com/books?id=VNaftfbYp3gC&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=Guadalupe+legends&source=bl&ots=CkcRBMmsCp&sig=pxgMzvxrBiW0hHjJKzcK5Ma-5Fc&hl=en&ei=jYB_SsTxBI-kMKLo0foC&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10#v=onepage&q=Guadalupe%20legends&f=false
 

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LBK said:
In short, the Guadelupe image cannot be venerated as an icon by Orthodox believers.
I believe it can - in a form of a private devotion.

Elpidophoros said:
Michał said:
Elpidophoros said:
.....EP even offered candle to the heretic phantasma of Lourdes, I do not know if he really believe that this phantasma is"immaculada concepciou",and Theotokos.
By saying that She is "immaculada concepciou", this phantasma, as you call Her, didn't mean Her conception but Christ's. The date of the apparition proves that.
What???Are you kidding....??
No. What feast is there on March 25?
 
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