Scientist confirms inexplicable nature of Our Lady of Guadalupe image

Alveus Lacuna

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Michał said:
What makes this image un-Orthodox apart from the fact that it wasn't painted by Orthodox? As far as the visual part of it is concerned, there is quite a similar Orthodox icon, Our Lady of the Gate of Dawn (http://tiny.cc/02LW1), venerated by the Polish Orthodox Church on December 26/January 8.


This icon is beautiful!  Is it truly Orthodox, or is it Catholic in origin?
 

LBK

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This image, known as Ostrobramskaya, arose from Polish Roman Catholic tradition.
 

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LBK said:
This image, known as Ostrobramskaya, arose from Polish Roman Catholic tradition.
Actually, it was Orthodox first and known as Khersonskaya. It had "More honorable than the Cherubim, and more glorious beyond compare than the Seraphim" inscription. It went to the hands of Catholics (first Byzantine, then Roman) at the time of the schism of Brest. In 1829, the icon was renovated and some Western features were added to it.
 

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My dear Michal, here is an example of the icon of the Mother of God Korsunskaya:

http://days.pravoslavie.ru/Images/ib2413.jpg

There is no resemblance at all in iconographic type or composition between Ostrobramskaya and Korsunskaya.




 

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LBK said:
There is no resemblance at all in iconographic type or composition between Ostrobramskaya and Korsunskaya.
The previous name of the Ostrobramskaya indicates where the icon was brought from, nothing more.
 

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stashko said:
It could be a creation of the devil though ...
Within 40 years of Our Lady's appearance, the bloody human sacrifices of the Aztecs (which used to murder hundreds and thousands of people a day at times to their gods/goddesses) came to an end and the Indian population converted to Christianity. You should read a good history on Guadalupe, such as the Wonder of Guadalupe.

Some of the extraordinary things about the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe:

- The eyes behave like living eyes, contracting and dilating with light and reflecting images like real eyes. They also show the image of that encounter of Juan Diego at the Bishops residence.
- The stars on her cloak are the exact positions of the stars that were viewable at that location in Mexico at that time.
- The image is not on the cloak, but is suspended a fraction of an inch above the tilma
- The image defies copying; that is no copy, whether by hand or photograph, can duplicate the glorious splendor of the image in person.
- Many features, such as the eyes, are too fine of details to be painted on so coarse a material as the tilma.
- The tilma, made of coarse cactus fiber (its a poor peasant work apron) can only survive at best 40 years -- this one has survived over ten times as long.
- No evidence of artistic creation, such as sketching, brush strokes, over-coats, has been detected even in using state of the art computer and photographic analysis.
- The apparent size and color qualities change on distance from the tilma.
- etc.


stashko said:
I just can't believe that the Blessed Theotokos would appear  as a Indian Pagan Goddess or resembles one just to convert the Indians to Christianity..
She didn't come as a pagan goddess, she appeared as an young Indian woman. She did lead the Indian population away from their snake gods and human sacrifice.

stashko said:
The people torture them selfs by walking on there knees to that shrine some times for miles ..
And Eastern Orthodoxy has never been known for any sort of above average asceticism.



FYI -- did you know that the original Our Lady of Guadalupe was a statue carved by Saint Luke that found its way to Spain.
 

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Athanasios said:
FYI -- did you know that the original Our Lady of Guadalupe was a statue carved by Saint Luke that found its way to Spain.
I seriously doubt that.
 

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Here is Joe Nickell's investigation into this:
http://www.csicop.org/sb/2002-06/guadalupe.html

In 1985, forensic analyst John F. Fischer and I reported all of this evidence and more in "a folkloristic and iconographic investigation" of the Image of Guadalupe in Skeptical Inquirer. We also addressed some of the pseudoscience that the image has attracted. (For example, some claim to have discovered faces, including that of "Juan Diego" in the magnified weave of the Virgin's eyes-evidence of nothing more than the pious imagination's ability to perceive images, inkblot-like, in random shapes) (Nickell and Fischer 1985).

Recently our findings were confirmed when the Spanish-language magazine Proceso reported the results of a secret study of the Image of Guadalupe. It had been conducted - secretly - in 1982 by art restoration expert José Sol Rosales. Rosales examined the cloth with a stereomicroscope and observed that the canvas appeared to be a mixture of linen and hemp or cactus fiber. It had been prepared with a brush coat of white primer (calcium sulfate), and the image was then rendered in distemper (i.e., paint consisting of pigment, water, and a binding medium). The artist used a "very limited palette," the expert stated, consisting of black (from pine soot), white, blue, green, various earth colors ("tierras"), reds (including carmine), and gold. Rosales concluded that the image did not originate supernaturally but was instead the work of an artist who used the materials and methods of the sixteenth century (El Vaticano 2002).

In addition, new scholarship (e.g. Brading 2001) suggests that, while the image was painted not long after the Spanish conquest and was alleged to have miraculous powers, the pious legend of Mary's appearance to Juan Diego may date from the following century. Some Catholic scholars, including the former curator of the basilica Monsignor Guillermo Schulemburg, even doubt the historical existence of Juan Diego. Schulemburg said the canonization of Juan Diego would be the "recognition of a cult" (Nickell 1997).

However, the skeptics are apparently having little if any effect, and Pope John Paul II seems bent on canonizing "Juan Diego" who is as demonstrably popular among Mexican Catholics as he is, apparently, fictitious.
 

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samkim said:
Elpidophoros said:
It's hard to imagine such kind of "a private devotion"exists in Orthodoxy,in which you can venerate some image neither proved nor venerated by the Church and in the Church.
Well, there are as many private devotions as there are Orthodox Christians. I don't think the Church has approved the private veneration of images of our teacher Confucius.
I also do not think that the Church has approved any kind(private or not)veneration of images(or more'traditional' way,not images, but only ‘神主’) of our great teacher Confucius. It's not the responsibility of the Church to judge such thing.Just like in other cultures,people show their respect towards flags or other symbols,without asking blessing from SF or church authority.

But the case of "Our Lady of Guadalupe" is completely different from the veneration of Confucius or national flag——no one say Confucius should be venerated as a christian saint or the Korean national flag(太極+四卦象)should be venerated as an christian symbol.But the image of "Our Lady of Guadalupe"supposed to be one icon of most holy Theotos in the view of it's venerators.

Furthermore,the veneration of Confucius or all kinds of traditional sinic 祭祀of聖賢are related to a prechristian philosophy which has nothing conflict with Orthodoxy. But he image of "Our Lady of Guadalupe"is related with one certain heresy,which is evil per se.

Practically,I do not see any problem to veneate 至聖先師大成孔子or亞聖孟子or復聖顏子or箕聖according to our tradition;but I'll never venerate any "lady"or"master"who reveal it's self by distrustful apparition(such phenomenon wildy exist in both sinic and korean folk religions),our teacher Confucius defined such thing as“怪力亂神”。
 

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Athanasios said:
stashko said:
I just can't believe that the Blessed Theotokos would appear  as a Indian Pagan Goddess or resembles one just to convert the Indians to Christianity..
She didn't come as a pagan goddess, she appeared as an young Indian woman. She did lead the Indian population away from their snake gods and human sacrifice.

stashko said:
The people torture them selfs by walking on there knees to that shrine some times for miles ..
And Eastern Orthodoxy has never been known for any sort of above average asceticism.
Like living life at the top of a pole (our pole sitters, a.k.a. stylites) or kneeling on a rock for 1000 consecutive nights, even through the debilitating pain of injuries suffered during a vicious robbery that left him almost dead (St. Seraphim of Sarov).  Yes, stashko, I think our own Tradition has examples of the extreme asceticism you just ridiculed. ;)
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
Athanasios said:
stashko said:
I just can't believe that the Blessed Theotokos would appear  as a Indian Pagan Goddess or resembles one just to convert the Indians to Christianity..
She didn't come as a pagan goddess, she appeared as an young Indian woman. She did lead the Indian population away from their snake gods and human sacrifice.

stashko said:
The people torture them selfs by walking on there knees to that shrine some times for miles ..
And Eastern Orthodoxy has never been known for any sort of above average asceticism.
Like living life at the top of a pole (our pole sitters, a.k.a. stylites) or kneeling on a rock for 1000 consecutive nights, even through the debilitating pain of injuries suffered during a vicious robbery that left him almost dead (St. Seraphim of Sarov).  Yes, stashko, I think our own Tradition has examples of the extreme asceticism you just ridiculed. ;)

I don't buy it ,,the Ascticism that the blessed saints practice isn't to appease an angry God Or Goddess but to disipline themselfs in taking control over their body that there spirit may rule it...

the mexicans and tourists that go there will punish them selfs silly ,by doing all kinds of sever torcher thinking there Pagan Goddess will grant there prayers and grant whatever their seeking by this abuse........
 

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I don't see any problem with having the painting in the Monastery of St. Anthony in Mexico. I don't think it has to be removed. I don't see the Russian Church running to remove all the heretical paintings from Christ the Savior Cathedral or any other church for that matter which have absolutely no Orthodox origin same with some paintings I've seen in Serbia also. And their are a ton of churches that have Davinci's Last Supper in it; where is that in Orthodox tradition? Our Lady of Guadalupe is a symbol for the Mexican people and if they want to keep it then fine if it brings them closer to God.
 

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stashko said:
I don't buy it ,,the Ascticism that the blessed saints practice isn't to appease an angry God Or Goddess but to disipline themselfs in taking control over their body that there spirit may rule it...

the mexicans and tourists that go there will punish them selfs silly ,by doing all kinds of sever torcher thinking there Pagan Goddess will grant there prayers and grant whatever their seeking by this abuse........
And you, of course, have the clairvoyance of an elder to know what is in the heart of "the mexicans and tourists that go there"?  What proof do you have that they do these things out of a desire to "appeace an angry God Or Goddess" and not out of some sort of a desire to bring their bodies in line with the spirit, ala St. Paul?

Until you can present some proof of your accusations, you, my friend, are just bearing false witness...or maybe just baring your omnipresent anti-Catholic sentiments once again?
 

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John Larocque said:
Here is Joe Nickell's investigation into this:
http://www.csicop.org/sb/2002-06/guadalupe.html
Are you a regular reader of the magazine of this organization? As I'm sure you are aware, the Committee on Skeptical Inquiry was founded and is run by Paul Kurtz, the so-called "father of secular humanism." I shudder to think how his atheist operation "debunks" the existence of Jesus Christ or other foundational beliefs of Christianity. Might there be some bias/agenda here?

If everything has to be "proven" by "science," what is the point of believing anything?

 

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I don't know much about this image (other then the fact that the RCC in America constantly pushes it on anglo parishes in an effort to appear PC and acceptin g to Mexican migrants). 

It would be kind of incorrect however for the Orthodox to venerate an image held in the esteem of the post schism RCC.  The OCC should be faithful to her own traditions and religious culture.  Even the RCC Vatican II called for Eastern Christians not to be latinized.
 

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I'm aware of the slippery slope argument, but also adhere to a healthy skepticism. This was a mechanism by which I was able to discard most of the phenomenon associated with various Marian apparitions, weeping statues, icons and what not. None of these are things which are endemic to historic Christianity, and yet whenever you look at (popular) Catholicism, it is rife with it. So where does this phenomenon come from? I don't think that a naturalistic answer is the wrong answer. In the past I have admired the work of the Bollandist fathers and the above-mentioned Herbert Thurston, whose work affected the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia and the Revised Butler's Lives of the Saints.

Take for example the visions ascribed to Teresa of Avila or other ascetics, for example. Where do these visions come from? Do they come from God or Satan? Or is it the fact that you've subjected your body to various forms of asceticism, and that your mode of prayer creates the environment from which visions come? And then you treat these visions as authentic as a result of this bodily punishment. This approach allowed me to deconstruct or place sufficient doubt against the heavenly origins of many visions. Modern instances of inedia phenomenon (people who starve themselves and claim to live off only the Eucharistic hosts) have proven themselves to be frauds.

I do not equate skepticism with full-blown secular humanism. I am aware of the connection, but skepticism is a method, not a faith system.

With respect to Juan Diego, I simply don't believe that he ever existed, and the Catholic Church erred in canonizing him. And that there isn't anything supernatural about the Guadalupe image itself. I am sure that others do, but I do not..
 

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stashko said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Athanasios said:
stashko said:
I just can't believe that the Blessed Theotokos would appear  as a Indian Pagan Goddess or resembles one just to convert the Indians to Christianity..
She didn't come as a pagan goddess, she appeared as an young Indian woman. She did lead the Indian population away from their snake gods and human sacrifice.

stashko said:
The people torture them selfs by walking on there knees to that shrine some times for miles ..
And Eastern Orthodoxy has never been known for any sort of above average asceticism.
Like living life at the top of a pole (our pole sitters, a.k.a. stylites) or kneeling on a rock for 1000 consecutive nights, even through the debilitating pain of injuries suffered during a vicious robbery that left him almost dead (St. Seraphim of Sarov).  Yes, stashko, I think our own Tradition has examples of the extreme asceticism you just ridiculed. ;)

I don't buy it ,,the Ascticism that the blessed saints practice isn't to appease an angry God Or Goddess but to disipline themselfs in taking control over their body that there spirit may rule it...

the mexicans and tourists that go there will punish them selfs silly ,by doing all kinds of sever torcher thinking there Pagan Goddess will grant there prayers and grant whatever their seeking by this abuse........
How do you know their motivations?  Have you been blessed with the gift of telepathy?
 

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Robb said:
It would be kind of incorrect however for the Orthodox to venerate an image held in the esteem of the post schism RCC.  The OCC should be faithful to her own traditions and religious culture.  Even the RCC Vatican II called for Eastern Christians not to be latinized.
I agree that the Orthodox should stick to it's own traditions but what do you say about the Western paintings and so called icons that adorn the churches of Russia such as Christ the Savior in Moscow? Those are definitely not traditional in Orthodoxy since they were introduced by the Westernizations of Tsar Peter I. Our Lady of Guadalupe looks more like an icon than many of the Western paintings you see in many Orthodox churches today.
 
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