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SCOOCH Announces Orthodox Christian Campus Ministries

AntoniousNikolas

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This is exciting:

http://www.scooch.org/2015/03/scooch-announces-orthodox-christian-campus-ministries/

SCOOCH Announces Orthodox Christian Campus Ministries

New York, NY – The Standing Conference of Oriental Orthodox Churches is proud to present its official campus fellowship: Orthodox Christian Campus Ministries (OCCM).  Recognizing the need for a spiritual support system for young Orthodox Christians during their crucial college years, the Standing Conference of Oriental Orthodox Churches imparts its blessing to its official campus fellowship – OCCM – to begin the work of uniting our youth under one banner where they can come together to meet, pray, learn from one another and to enjoy Christian fellowship.

With God’s help and in keeping with the vision of SCOOCH, OCCM will strive to:
•Unite all existing Oriental Orthodox campus fellowships under a single banner based primarily upon the sacred Orthodox Faith which our ancient churches hold in common rather than ethnic culture or custom.
•Provide freshman and/or transfer students with a network of Orthodox Christian peers in order help them to maintain their faith while acclimating to their new environment by assisting them spiritually, scholastically, socially, economically and even emotionally.
•Provide existing Orthodox campus organizations with a forum to share ideas, programs, and events so as to better serve our brothers and sisters under a single united banner.
•Assist students who desire to start a chapter of OCCM on their campus with the proper steps and support to achieve that interest successfully.

Please visit us online now at: http://www.occministries.org/
 

minasoliman

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This is nice!

I remember starting an OCC (Orthodox Christian Club) in my undergrad, uniting EO and OO. I wonder if there can be some sort of joint work done between OCF and OCCM in the future.
 

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I like this idea, but it might be helpful to have a less ambiguous name--if I'm a student arriving on campus not knowing any better, and there's a chapter of both OCF and OCCM on campus, how am I supposed to identify which group I should be attending?

This is a good thing, though. The OCF at my undergrad institution was a bit, shall we say, tribal. It was a pretty uncomfortable place to be as an OO, much less an Armenian--so much talk about "American Orthodoxy" and a sort of anti-ethnic fixation on just about everything. No room for degrees of difference, ethnic, theological, or otherwise. I just concentrated on spending my time going to church and left it by the wayside.
 

AntoniousNikolas

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minasoliman said:
This is nice!

I remember starting an OCC (Orthodox Christian Club) in my undergrad, uniting EO and OO. I wonder if there can be some sort of joint work done between OCF and OCCM in the future.
I'm sure there can!  I think the idea though was that we as OO need something of our own because of precisely what Aram just posted.  He's certainly not the first OO Christian I've heard articulate something like this.  Also - and of course this varies from chapter to chapter and campus to campus - some OO students attending OCF meetings have reported sitting in on lectures from the group's spiritual advisor or guest speaker priests extolling Chalcedon and denigrating St. Dioscoros.  That's fine, since OCF is a EO organization, and if that is that particular priest's interpretation of Chalcedon, that's great, but our students need not be hangers on who have to sit through such because there's nowhere else for them to go.  We need to have our own community in order before we can begin to work with others, and this is a great first step.  We should be able to bring something to the table in terms of cooperating with the EO.  The OO can't be the tolerated guests at the EO table in America forever, always relying on their goodwill and charity.  We want to cooperate with the EO until communion is reestablished, not rely on them.  One day unity will come, but until that time we need to start standing on our own two, and thinking about running organizations by and for ourselves.

There's a lot we can learn from OCF though.  For one thing, I hope OCCM mirrors OCF's zero tolerance policy for so-called CCM, unlike certain "Coptic Clubs".

Aram said:
I like this idea, but it might be helpful to have a less ambiguous name--if I'm a student arriving on campus not knowing any better, and there's a chapter of both OCF and OCCM on campus, how am I supposed to identify which group I should be attending?
As I understand it, the decision not to have a qualifier ("Oriental") was a deliberate one.  We are the Orthodox Church.  If the OCF (as opposed to EOCF) is good enough for that organization, OCCM is good enough for us.  I think it can be made clear in other ways that this is a fellowship of Ethiopian, Coptic, Eritrean, Malankara, Armenian, Syriac and other Miaphysite students.

Aram said:
This is a good thing, though. The OCF at my undergrad institution was a bit, shall we say, tribal. It was a pretty uncomfortable place to be as an OO, much less an Armenian--so much talk about "American Orthodoxy" and a sort of anti-ethnic fixation on just about everything. No room for degrees of difference, ethnic, theological, or otherwise. I just concentrated on spending my time going to church and left it by the wayside.
"Anti-ethnic" is certainly not how I would describe the mission of OCCM.  More like multi-ethnic.  I think it's a step up from ghettoized "Coptic Clubs" and "Armenian Clubs" with that one lonely Malayali guy who always shows up though.  :)
 

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Well, as a former officer of a campus Armenian Club that had Greeks, Persians, Arabs, and many other non-Armenians that came because the liked our club, I shudder at the term "ghettoized." Our club served a purpose, just as the OCCM does. No need to take a shot at these kinds of things.
 

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Aram said:
Well, as a former officer of a campus Armenian Club that had Greeks, Persians, Arabs, and many other non-Armenians that came because the liked our club, I shudder at the term "ghettoized." Our club served a purpose, just as the OCCM does. No need to take a shot at these kinds of things.
Well, yeah, it depends on the purpose of the club and how they respond to others, too. A club that only welcomed Armenians would certainly be an ethnic ghetto, by design. A club that also welcomed outsiders who were interested in Armenian culture would be quite different in how it would operate and be perceived.
 

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Aram said:
Well, as a former officer of a campus Armenian Club that had Greeks, Persians, Arabs, and many other non-Armenians that came because the liked our club, I shudder at the term "ghettoized." Our club served a purpose, just as the OCCM does. No need to take a shot at these kinds of things.
Fair enough.  Cultural clubs have their place.  If my campus had an Armenian club, I'd probably turn up too.  But the point of OCCM is that its based around the Oriental Orthodox Faith.  If we have a Coptic Club and an Armenian Club that are both primarily religious and not cultural in nature operating on the same campus as distinct entities, then I think we're missing the point.  If we're talking about cultural clubs, that's different.  If we're talking about Culture Club, then that's really different.

 

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I'm not saying a variety of clubs can't coexist and work well together. I think this is a great idea. I just don't really see a reason to take shots at campus ethnic clubs along the way. That's all.
 

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I agree that Miaphysites shouldn't feel like hangers-on in OCF.

I'm troubled to hear that some of our young Orthodox were pushing such a strong anti-ethnic agenda in their meetings. Making Orthodoxy more accessible to American converts is great, but denying the heritages of the people who brought it here is pretty ridiculous.
 

AntoniousNikolas

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Aram said:
I'm not saying a variety of clubs can't coexist and work well together. I think this is a great idea. I just don't really see a reason to take shots at campus ethnic clubs along the way. That's all.
My intention was not to take shots are purely ethnic clubs, which is what you seem to be describing with the Armenian clubs.  I'd imagine they attract Armenians of various confessions, right?  The focus is on being Armenian, not on being Orthodox or Catholic or whatever.  I have no problem with clubs like that.  I do think we need we need to move away from religious clubs with ethnic qualifiers that are prohibitive to other people who share the same faith joining.  For example, the "Coptic Clubs" are primarily religious - not cultural - in nature, with the term "Coptic" being used as a sort of substitute for Orthodox and (unintentionally) sending the message to other OO that the club is primarily for Copts and not so much for them.  This being the case, other OO attendees are inadvertently made to feel like they're guests of "the Copts" in a club organized primarily for Copts.
 

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Antonious Nikolas said:
Aram said:
I'm not saying a variety of clubs can't coexist and work well together. I think this is a great idea. I just don't really see a reason to take shots at campus ethnic clubs along the way. That's all.
My intention was not to take shots are purely ethnic clubs, which is what you seem to be describing with the Armenian clubs.  I'd imagine they attract Armenians of various confessions, right?  The focus is on being Armenian, not on being Orthodox or Catholic or whatever.  I have no problem with clubs like that.  I do think we need we need to move away from religious clubs with ethnic qualifiers that are prohibitive to other people who share the same faith joining.  For example, the "Coptic Clubs" are primarily religious - not cultural - in nature, with the term "Coptic" being used as a sort of substitute for Orthodox and (unintentionally) sending the message to other OO that the club is primarily for Copts and not so much for them.  This being the case, other OO attendees are inadvertently made to feel like they're guests of "the Copts" in a club organized primarily for Copts.
That was why I prohibited use of the word "Coptic" when I started the "OCC" at my campus.  We were mostly Copts and Malankara, but when I left, it de facto turned Coptic, and most of the Malankara members gravitated to the Campus Crusades again!!!
 

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minasoliman said:
Antonious Nikolas said:
Aram said:
I'm not saying a variety of clubs can't coexist and work well together. I think this is a great idea. I just don't really see a reason to take shots at campus ethnic clubs along the way. That's all.
My intention was not to take shots are purely ethnic clubs, which is what you seem to be describing with the Armenian clubs.  I'd imagine they attract Armenians of various confessions, right?  The focus is on being Armenian, not on being Orthodox or Catholic or whatever.  I have no problem with clubs like that.  I do think we need we need to move away from religious clubs with ethnic qualifiers that are prohibitive to other people who share the same faith joining.  For example, the "Coptic Clubs" are primarily religious - not cultural - in nature, with the term "Coptic" being used as a sort of substitute for Orthodox and (unintentionally) sending the message to other OO that the club is primarily for Copts and not so much for them.  This being the case, other OO attendees are inadvertently made to feel like they're guests of "the Copts" in a club organized primarily for Copts.
That was why I prohibited use of the word "Coptic" when I started the "OCC" at my campus.  We were mostly Copts and Malankara, but when I left, it de facto turned Coptic, and most of the Malankara members gravitated to the Campus Crusades again!!!
To our everlasting shame.
 

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Aram said:
Well, as a former officer of a campus Armenian Club that had Greeks, Persians, Arabs, and many other non-Armenians that came because the liked our club, I shudder at the term "ghettoized." Our club served a purpose, just as the OCCM does. No need to take a shot at these kinds of things.
+10
 

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Antonious Nikolas said:
some OO students attending OCF meetings have reported sitting in on lectures from the group's spiritual advisor or guest speaker priests extolling Chalcedon and denigrating St. Dioscoros.
That sounds like a weird OCF meeting.
 

minasoliman

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Mor Ephrem said:
minasoliman said:
Antonious Nikolas said:
Aram said:
I'm not saying a variety of clubs can't coexist and work well together. I think this is a great idea. I just don't really see a reason to take shots at campus ethnic clubs along the way. That's all.
My intention was not to take shots are purely ethnic clubs, which is what you seem to be describing with the Armenian clubs.  I'd imagine they attract Armenians of various confessions, right?  The focus is on being Armenian, not on being Orthodox or Catholic or whatever.  I have no problem with clubs like that.  I do think we need we need to move away from religious clubs with ethnic qualifiers that are prohibitive to other people who share the same faith joining.  For example, the "Coptic Clubs" are primarily religious - not cultural - in nature, with the term "Coptic" being used as a sort of substitute for Orthodox and (unintentionally) sending the message to other OO that the club is primarily for Copts and not so much for them.  This being the case, other OO attendees are inadvertently made to feel like they're guests of "the Copts" in a club organized primarily for Copts.
That was why I prohibited use of the word "Coptic" when I started the "OCC" at my campus.  We were mostly Copts and Malankara, but when I left, it de facto turned Coptic, and most of the Malankara members gravitated to the Campus Crusades again!!!
To our everlasting shame.
Well, to be fair, before I started the OCC, Copts also attended Campus Crusade.  It was actually one of the main reasons why I started OCC.
 

AntoniousNikolas

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NicholasMyra said:
That sounds like a weird OCF meeting.
What can I say?  For some folks, acceptance of Chalcedon is a fundamental article of faith and a hallmark of Orthodoxy and they have no problem discussing it as such.

minasoliman said:
Well, to be fair, before I started the OCC, Copts also attended Campus Crusade.
To our everlasting shame.
 

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Antonious Nikolas said:
NicholasMyra said:
That sounds like a weird OCF meeting.
What can I say?  For some folks, acceptance of Chalcedon is a fundamental article of faith and a hallmark of Orthodoxy and they have no problem discussing it as such.

minasoliman said:
Well, to be fair, before I started the OCC, Copts also attended Campus Crusade.
To our everlasting shame.
I think you give OCF meetings too much credit. Most OCFers would scratch their heads if you asked them what Chalcedon is.
 

minasoliman

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I'm sure not every OCF is like that though.  I know someone who was welcomed with open arms at the Princeton University chapter.  The deacon there (I think he was Antiochian Orthodox) said he knew some Coptic prayers and wanted to be accommodating.
 

Antonis

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I can say that the OCF at Columbia is almost entirely composed of Copts. :p
 

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Antonis said:
Antonious Nikolas said:
NicholasMyra said:
That sounds like a weird OCF meeting.
What can I say?  For some folks, acceptance of Chalcedon is a fundamental article of faith and a hallmark of Orthodoxy and they have no problem discussing it as such.

minasoliman said:
Well, to be fair, before I started the OCC, Copts also attended Campus Crusade.
To our everlasting shame.
I think you give OCF meetings too much credit. Most OCFers would scratch their heads if you asked them what Chalcedon is.
I give OCF TONS of credit.  Particularly because one OCF guy wrote to me and said he wanted to welcome the Copts, but wasn't going to tolerate the CCM they wanted to bring with them.  He wouldn't countenance a bit of that crap.  I told him, "Great!  Teach them why it's wrong!" If the price of admission for that is some guest speaker priest who happens to mention Chalcedon, I say it's well worth it.  Oriental Orthodox youth need to be disabused of their attraction to Evangelical culture ASAP.
 

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And Copts and Ethiopians are part and parcel to ours.

Antonious Nikolas said:
Particularly because one OCF guy wrote to me and said he wanted to welcome the Copts, but wasn't going to tolerate the CCM they wanted to bring with them.
I don't understand; they wanted to perform or listen to CCM at OCF meetings?
 

AntoniousNikolas

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NicholasMyra said:
I don't understand; they wanted to perform or listen to CCM at OCF meetings?
The Coptic fellowship on that campus had one of those ubiquitous guys with a six string who thinks he can sing and likes to lead the group in Protestant songs.  When they approached the local OCF chapter and proposed merging into them or holding joint activities, the OCF leader balked at what the Copts were doing.
 

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Antonious Nikolas said:
The Coptic fellowship on that campus had one of those ubiquitous guys with a six string who thinks he can sing and likes to lead the group in Protestant songs.  When they approached the local OCF chapter and proposed merging into them or holding joint activities, the OCF leader balked at what the Copts were doing.
I would have permitted a Coptic round of Knocking on Heaven's Door, but nothing more.
 

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NicholasMyra said:
Antonious Nikolas said:
The Coptic fellowship on that campus had one of those ubiquitous guys with a six string who thinks he can sing and likes to lead the group in Protestant songs.  When they approached the local OCF chapter and proposed merging into them or holding joint activities, the OCF leader balked at what the Copts were doing.
I would have permitted a Coptic round of Knocking on Heaven's Door, but nothing more.
;D bwahahahaha!

But in all seriousness, I think this is a good thing overall, but may not be useful everywhere. I'm currently the co-president of a new OCF chapter on my campus (don't worry, my co-president is Orthodox, even though I'm not yet  :laugh:), and we're having trouble getting anyone to come to regular meetings, never mind specifically Eastern Orthodox/Oriental Orthodox/specific jurisdictions/what-have-you. We do get some interest from the other Christian groups on campus, which is nice, but so far only two people who are interested in our group are Orthodox (three if you count me hopefully becoming a catechumen this summer, Lord willing). I think it's good that the OO jurisdictions are providing for the theological and spiritual development of their members in places where Chalcedon might be an issue, but I think unity within the Orthodox student community on a given campus is also really important if it hopes to make progress pursuing its goals.

Just my two cents. Take with a thorough helping of salt.

Pray for me, a sinner.
 

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CharalambisMakarios said:
NicholasMyra said:
Antonious Nikolas said:
The Coptic fellowship on that campus had one of those ubiquitous guys with a six string who thinks he can sing and likes to lead the group in Protestant songs.  When they approached the local OCF chapter and proposed merging into them or holding joint activities, the OCF leader balked at what the Copts were doing.
I would have permitted a Coptic round of Knocking on Heaven's Door, but nothing more.
;D bwahahahaha!

But in all seriousness, I think this is a good thing overall, but may not be useful everywhere. I'm currently the co-president of a new OCF chapter on my campus (don't worry, my co-president is Orthodox, even though I'm not yet  :laugh:), and we're having trouble getting anyone to come to regular meetings, never mind specifically Eastern Orthodox/Oriental Orthodox/specific jurisdictions/what-have-you. We do get some interest from the other Christian groups on campus, which is nice, but so far only two people who are interested in our group are Orthodox (three if you count me hopefully becoming a catechumen this summer, Lord willing). I think it's good that the OO jurisdictions are providing for the theological and spiritual development of their members in places where Chalcedon might be an issue, but I think unity within the Orthodox student community on a given campus is also really important if it hopes to make progress pursuing its goals.

Just my two cents. Take with a thorough helping of salt.

Pray for me, a sinner.
I fail to see the relevance of this comment to the issue of Protestant (more specifically revivalist/charismatic/contemporary) songs.
 

AntoniousNikolas

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CharalambisMakarios said:
NicholasMyra said:
Antonious Nikolas said:
The Coptic fellowship on that campus had one of those ubiquitous guys with a six string who thinks he can sing and likes to lead the group in Protestant songs.  When they approached the local OCF chapter and proposed merging into them or holding joint activities, the OCF leader balked at what the Copts were doing.
I would have permitted a Coptic round of Knocking on Heaven's Door, but nothing more.
;D bwahahahaha!

But in all seriousness, I think this is a good thing overall, but may not be useful everywhere. I'm currently the co-president of a new OCF chapter on my campus (don't worry, my co-president is Orthodox, even though I'm not yet  :laugh:), and we're having trouble getting anyone to come to regular meetings, never mind specifically Eastern Orthodox/Oriental Orthodox/specific jurisdictions/what-have-you. We do get some interest from the other Christian groups on campus, which is nice, but so far only two people who are interested in our group are Orthodox (three if you count me hopefully becoming a catechumen this summer, Lord willing). I think it's good that the OO jurisdictions are providing for the theological and spiritual development of their members in places where Chalcedon might be an issue, but I think unity within the Orthodox student community on a given campus is also really important if it hopes to make progress pursuing its goals.

Just my two cents. Take with a thorough helping of salt.

Pray for me, a sinner.
Basically, it's not a competition.  We have to minister to our youth.  The EO have to minister to theirs.  We're not one Church yet, and it's not good for us to piggyback on an EO organization or be there as tolerated guests when (as the discussions on these boards clearly demonstrate) not every EO priest or servant (including some of those who might serve with OCF) is sure we're entirely Orthodox and not "almost Orthodox" or "Severian Monophysites".  We have to have our own house in order before we can talk about unifying with EO organizations.  It's not a good thing for the OO to always be coming to the EO hat in hand and depending on their kindness like Blanche DuBois.  Respectfully, your comments as an inquirer to the Orthodox Church - and all of the comments from EO in this thread - about whether or not this organization is necessary are taken with enough salt to kill a slug the size of Godzilla.  We, the Oriental Orthodox Christians, deem it necessary.  Our bishops deem it necessary.  It exists and it is moving forward.  Case closed.  May God bless the efforts of those involved.
 

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SCOOCH. I'd really like to have been a fly on the wall when the bishops decided on that acronym.
 

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Antonious Nikolas said:
CharalambisMakarios said:
NicholasMyra said:
Antonious Nikolas said:
The Coptic fellowship on that campus had one of those ubiquitous guys with a six string who thinks he can sing and likes to lead the group in Protestant songs.  When they approached the local OCF chapter and proposed merging into them or holding joint activities, the OCF leader balked at what the Copts were doing.
I would have permitted a Coptic round of Knocking on Heaven's Door, but nothing more.
;D bwahahahaha!

But in all seriousness, I think this is a good thing overall, but may not be useful everywhere. I'm currently the co-president of a new OCF chapter on my campus (don't worry, my co-president is Orthodox, even though I'm not yet  :laugh:), and we're having trouble getting anyone to come to regular meetings, never mind specifically Eastern Orthodox/Oriental Orthodox/specific jurisdictions/what-have-you. We do get some interest from the other Christian groups on campus, which is nice, but so far only two people who are interested in our group are Orthodox (three if you count me hopefully becoming a catechumen this summer, Lord willing). I think it's good that the OO jurisdictions are providing for the theological and spiritual development of their members in places where Chalcedon might be an issue, but I think unity within the Orthodox student community on a given campus is also really important if it hopes to make progress pursuing its goals.

Just my two cents. Take with a thorough helping of salt.

Pray for me, a sinner.
Basically, it's not a competition.  We have to minister to our youth.  The EO have to minister to theirs.  We're not one Church yet, and it's not good for us to piggyback on an EO organization or be there as tolerated guests when (as the discussions on these boards clearly demonstrate) not every EO priest or servant (including some of those who might serve with OCF) is sure we're entirely Orthodox and not "almost Orthodox" or "Severian Monophysites".  We have to have our own house in order before we can talk about unifying with EO organizations.  It's not a good thing for the OO to always be coming to the EO hat in hand and depending on their kindness like Blanche DuBois.  Respectfully, your comments as an inquirer to the Orthodox Church - and all of the comments from EO in this thread - about whether or not this organization is necessary are taken with enough salt to kill a slug the size of Godzilla.  We, the Oriental Orthodox Christians, deem it necessary.  Our bishops deem it necessary.  It exists and it is moving forward.  Case closed.  May God bless the efforts of those involved.
When did I say it wasn't necessary? All I said was it may not be useful everywhere. And I acknowledge my inquirer status. No one is more aware of it than me. I assure you I meant all my comments in good faith, and I was not intending to bash this new effort.
 

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CharalambisMakarios said:
When did I say it wasn't necessary? All I said was it may not be useful everywhere.
It will be useful everywhere that there are enough Oriental Orthodox college students to gather together in fellowship.  The implication that this effort might be redundant in some places because the EO organization has the OO students covered is invalid.  OCCM should establish a foothold on those campuses too.

You said:

I think it's good that the OO jurisdictions are providing for the theological and spiritual development of their members in places where Chalcedon might be an issue
It's not just where Chalcedon might be an issue.  It's anywhere that there are OO students.

but I think unity within the Orthodox student community on a given campus is also really important if it hopes to make progress pursuing its goals.
Unity as in cooperation between OCCM and OCF?  Sure.  Unity as in just encouraging OO students to remain a part of or join the EO club?  I think that would be counterproductive, unless OCF is to cease being an arm of the EO Church and be jointly run by the EO and OO Churches.

CharalambisMakarios said:
And I acknowledge my inquirer status. No one is more aware of it than me.
Good to know.  All I'm saying is that as an inquirer, you're certainly not qualified to speak to the needs of Oriental Orthodox students, whatever role you might play in your local OCF chapter.  Our bishops have determined that there is a need for this organization and asked their priests and leaders of campus ministries to organize themselves under this banner.

CharalambisMakarios said:
I assure you I meant all my comments in good faith, and I was not intending to bash this new effort.
Also good to know.  I'm just a bit turned off by the idea of people questioning the need for or legitimacy of this effort, especially people who aren't a part of our communion.  If there's a need for OCF, Campus Crusade for Christ, or the Newman Center, there's a need for this.  Period.
 

CharalambisMakarios

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I understand where you're coming from, and in most cases I generally agree. Perhaps we'd best leave it at that, and I defer to one more qualified as yourself. Forgive me if I have offended.

Pray for me, a sinner.
 

AntoniousNikolas

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God forgives.  I forgive.  Please forgive me if I came off as harsh.  I just feel our bishops should be applauded for taking the initiative in providing for the spiritual welfare of our youth, not second-guessed by folks on these message boards who don't know what information they took into consideration before launching this endeavor.  One assumes that the eight men whose signatures are on the letter in question - including one Patriarch and one bishop signing expressly as the representative of a Patriarch - didn't enter into this on the spur of the moment, and that they know better than any of us posting here whether their spiritual children are better served by joining the EO club or having a club of their own.

http://www.scooch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/SCOOCH_OCCM_0001.pdf
 

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Antonious Nikolas said:
God forgives.  I forgive.  Please forgive me if I came off as harsh.  I just feel our bishops should be applauded for taking the initiative in providing for the spiritual welfare of our youth, not second-guessed by folks on these message boards who don't know what information they took into consideration before launching this endeavor.  One assumes that the eight men whose signatures are on the letter in question - including one Patriarch and one bishop signing expressly as the representative of a Patriarch - didn't enter into this on the spur of the moment, and that they know better than any of us posting here whether their spiritual children are better served by joining the EO club or having a club of their own.

http://www.scooch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/SCOOCH_OCCM_0001.pdf
Very true. I'm often put off by the way forums put everything up for debate (and it often does become debate). I think it is a very good idea that they're doing this. God forgives. I forgive.
 
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