See you at the pole

genesisone

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age234 said:
Why do people hold hands while praying?
My wife and I began the practice when our first-born was about a year old and beginning to sit at the table. It served the very practical purpose of keeping his hands out of the mashed potatoes  :D :D
 

kurtismjohnson

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genesisone said:
age234 said:
Why do people hold hands while praying?
My wife and I began the practice when our first-born was about a year old and beginning to sit at the table. It served the very practical purpose of keeping his hands out of the mashed potatoes  :D :D
Do Orthodox never hold hands while praying? Ive never thought of it until you mentioned that, but now that I think about it i dont think Ive ever seen it.  I have seen it in Catholic churches.  Maybe its just a Western thing?
 

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Timon said:
genesisone said:
age234 said:
Why do people hold hands while praying?
My wife and I began the practice when our first-born was about a year old and beginning to sit at the table. It served the very practical purpose of keeping his hands out of the mashed potatoes  :D :D
Do Orthodox never hold hands while praying? Ive never thought of it until you mentioned that, but now that I think about it i dont think Ive ever seen it.  I have seen it in Catholic churches.  Maybe its just a Western thing?
It's a Protestant thing, not a Western thing. The Romans got it from the Protestants sometime around (if I remember correctly) the 80's (though it wouldn't surprise me if it started in the 60's). It was never done in the Tridentine Rite, I don't believe it is done in Western Orthodoxy, and probably didn't start with the Protestants until the 60's or so either, when everyone started getting all touchy-feely hippie crazy.
 

JamesR

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With all due respect, I find it fascinating that you--being Orthodox--pray while holding hands. Wouldn't it make it kind of hard to Cross yourself or perform any prostrations or those other 'weird' things that we do when we pray?
 

genesisone

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JamesR said:
With all due respect, I find it fascinating that you--being Orthodox--pray while holding hands. Wouldn't it make it kind of hard to Cross yourself or perform any prostrations or those other 'weird' things that we do when we pray?
I'm not sure who the "you" is here, JamesR. Here's my situation: the only time my wife and I hold hands to pray is at mealtime - and that's a holdover from 30 years of married life before I became Orthodox. It's a brief prayer. I can cross myself before and afterwards. My wife is not Orthodox and continues to decline to join me in other prayers.
 

Kerdy

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I think all the micro management of prayer in this thread is...it's not good. 
 

trevor72694

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We do this at my school every year.  I don't see anything wrong with a Christian doing it, Orthodox or otherwise.  It's one's intentions that matter most, after all.

I, personally, don't participate.  Though I'm a part of our Christian club, who host the event, it's not my thing.  I'm a huge fan of secularism in the government, and this event seems to be against it.  Most of the kids in this group are Evangelical Christians, and there is a lot that they stand for which I do not, so I seldom do activities like this "see you at the pole" silliness with them.

This group, as I said, is mostly attended by Evangelical kids.  I am very clear about my not being Evangelical in my beliefs, and it's respected, though I can hardly go two weeks without getting an invitation to be "saved".  I am attending an Anglican Church which I love, so I sometimes get the sense that I'm the odd man out in this club. (didn't think big post updating you all on every little change in my life was necessary! :p )  They're known for being very bigoted and right-wing.  The Catholic, Anglican and Lutheran friends I have can't stand this group.  I'm just there so that a "Christian" group has at least some representation from another point of view.
 

OrthoNoob

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trevor72694 said:
We do this at my school every year.  I don't see anything wrong with a Christian doing it, Orthodox or otherwise.  It's one's intentions that matter most, after all.

I, personally, don't participate.  Though I'm a part of our Christian club, who host the event, it's not my thing.  I'm a huge fan of secularism in the government, and this event seems to be against it.  Most of the kids in this group are Evangelical Christians, and there is a lot that they stand for which I do not, so I seldom do activities like this "see you at the pole" silliness with them.

This group, as I said, is mostly attended by Evangelical kids.  I am very clear about my not being Evangelical in my beliefs, and it's respected, though I can hardly go two weeks without getting an invitation to be "saved".  I am attending an Anglican Church which I love, so I sometimes get the sense that I'm the odd man out in this club. (didn't think big post updating you all on every little change in my life was necessary! :p )  They're known for being very bigoted and right-wing.  The Catholic, Anglican and Lutheran friends I have can't stand this group.  I'm just there so that a "Christian" group has at least some representation from another point of view.
:-X
 

trevor72694

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OrthoNoob said:
trevor72694 said:
We do this at my school every year.  I don't see anything wrong with a Christian doing it, Orthodox or otherwise.  It's one's intentions that matter most, after all.

I, personally, don't participate.  Though I'm a part of our Christian club, who host the event, it's not my thing.  I'm a huge fan of secularism in the government, and this event seems to be against it.  Most of the kids in this group are Evangelical Christians, and there is a lot that they stand for which I do not, so I seldom do activities like this "see you at the pole" silliness with them.

This group, as I said, is mostly attended by Evangelical kids.  I am very clear about my not being Evangelical in my beliefs, and it's respected, though I can hardly go two weeks without getting an invitation to be "saved".  I am attending an Anglican Church which I love, so I sometimes get the sense that I'm the odd man out in this club. (didn't think big post updating you all on every little change in my life was necessary! :p )  They're known for being very bigoted and right-wing.  The Catholic, Anglican and Lutheran friends I have can't stand this group.  I'm just there so that a "Christian" group has at least some representation from another point of view.
:-X
-What's wrong with a secularist government?  I know that I'm young and have limited life experiences, but in order for religious freedom to flourish, the government must be secular.  I don't mean forcing secularism, but not bending to the whims of a particular religious tradition.  In the eyes of the government, Christianity should be just as valid as Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Atheism, etc. 


-Also, I was going without Church for a long time.  I wasn't even sure if I believed in God.  I'm a practicing Christian again and I feel wonderful.  I should hope that you OC.net'ers, my friends, would be happy for me.  :)
 

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@trevor72694: Since you left the Church as a moderator I am asking you not to present your opinions on theology and faith in that section. Do it in the "Orthodox-Protestant Discussion" one.
 

Gorazd

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Shouldnt the form of government be discussed in the Politics section anyway?
 

trevor72694

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Michał Kalina said:
@trevor72694: Since you left the Church as a moderator I am asking you not to present your opinions on theology and faith in that section. Do it in the "Orthodox-Protestant Discussion" one.

Will do!  :)
 

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age234 said:
OrthoNoob said:
Father, we just come before You and just lift up our flagpole, Father, which doth be suffering from the affliction of the dire frost of winter, and we just ask, Father, that You, Father, would just put a hedge of protection, Father, around the school, and just bless the books of our students to their learning, Father. We also just pray, Father...
Oh my. It's so true. The "Polite/Deprecatory Just" used in prayer drives me crazy. And "hedge of protection".. :p

I'm also disturbed by the séance-style handholding that occurs at these events (and at Thanksgiving dinner). Why do people hold hands while praying?
I remember watching a video parodying how some evangelicals pray. "We just, Father God, ask you, Father God, that you, Father God, would teach us all your, Father God ways....Father God."

The guy who made the video said, "WHY DO YOU DO THAT??? Do you think God forgets His name? Or are you just trying to keep His attention?"  :D
 

OrthoNoob

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trevor72694 said:
OrthoNoob said:
trevor72694 said:
We do this at my school every year.  I don't see anything wrong with a Christian doing it, Orthodox or otherwise.  It's one's intentions that matter most, after all.

I, personally, don't participate.  Though I'm a part of our Christian club, who host the event, it's not my thing.  I'm a huge fan of secularism in the government, and this event seems to be against it.  Most of the kids in this group are Evangelical Christians, and there is a lot that they stand for which I do not, so I seldom do activities like this "see you at the pole" silliness with them.

This group, as I said, is mostly attended by Evangelical kids.  I am very clear about my not being Evangelical in my beliefs, and it's respected, though I can hardly go two weeks without getting an invitation to be "saved".  I am attending an Anglican Church which I love, so I sometimes get the sense that I'm the odd man out in this club. (didn't think big post updating you all on every little change in my life was necessary! :p )  They're known for being very bigoted and right-wing.  The Catholic, Anglican and Lutheran friends I have can't stand this group.  I'm just there so that a "Christian" group has at least some representation from another point of view.
:-X
-What's wrong with a secularist government?  I know that I'm young and have limited life experiences, but in order for religious freedom to flourish, the government must be secular.  I don't mean forcing secularism, but not bending to the whims of a particular religious tradition.  In the eyes of the government, Christianity should be just as valid as Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Atheism, etc. 


-Also, I was going without Church for a long time.  I wasn't even sure if I believed in God.  I'm a practicing Christian again and I feel wonderful.  I should hope that you OC.net'ers, my friends, would be happy for me.  :)
I'm strongly for religious establishment, but that wasn't my point. That would be for the Politics section. I was just noting the irony of being for secularism in the government and yet attending an Anglican Church, given the fact that the Anglican Church's whole history (except for a brief period under Queen Mary I) is one of being established.
 

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OrthoNoob said:
I was just noting the irony of being for secularism in the government and yet attending an Anglican Church, given the fact that the Anglican Church's whole history (except for a brief period under Queen Mary I) is one of being established.
That's the case in England. But for example in Scotland, it always was kind of an underdog thing.
 

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Gorazd said:
OrthoNoob said:
I was just noting the irony of being for secularism in the government and yet attending an Anglican Church, given the fact that the Anglican Church's whole history (except for a brief period under Queen Mary I) is one of being established.
That's the case in England. But for example in Scotland, it always was kind of an underdog thing.
That's true. But the basic identity of the Anglican Church is that it is the established Church of England. Anywhere else, it's essentially the English Church outside England. Heck, even the name means "English." For better or for worse, Anglican identity, theology, and practice is intimately caught up with Tudor-era English politics.
 

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trevor72694 said:
-Also, I was going without Church for a long time.  I wasn't even sure if I believed in God.  I'm a practicing Christian again and I feel wonderful.  I should hope that you OC.net'ers, my friends, would be happy for me.  :)
Sorry to hear that, Trevor.
 

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OrthoNoob said:
But the basic identity of the Anglican Church is that it is the established Church of England. Anywhere else, it's essentially the English Church outside England.
That's not my experience. The ECUSA for example has a strong identity of its own: National Cathedral, liturgical worship, liberalism in women's and LGBT issues.

The Anglican Church in South Africa also has its own identity, through its history of white Anglo-Catholics and educated Coloureds and Blacks fighting Apartheid together.

The Church of Nigeria, the largest Anglican local church, through its conservative, biblical style, but with liturgical elements, missionary zeal, opposition to Islam...

The Church of Ireland as being of English origin, but trying to present itself in continuity to the old Irish church of St. Patrick, trying to stay neutral in the Roman Catholic-Protestant conflicts, while at the same time welcoming enormous numbers of disappointed Roman Catholics.

The Scottish Episcopal Church, as the middle ground between papism and presbyterianism, and of course considering itself to be the most Scottish church, only true heir of the pre-refrmation church in Scotland, through its chain of apostolic succession.

The Episcopal churches of Spain and Portugal, founded in protest over Vatican I, but with evangelical elements trhough the support they received from "low church" Anglicans.

etc.
 

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I don't mean "how they think of themselves." I mean, as a matter of history, where they came from and what they are.
 

Gorazd

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OrthoNoob said:
I don't mean "how they think of themselves." I mean, as a matter of history, where they came from and what they are.
Well, the Church of Scotland really has its own history. The rest is related to the British Empire, of course. But that has no prevented them from localising. I guess we could say that Orthodoxy has the same relationship to the Byzantine Empire and Anglicanism has to the British Empire. Only that they are doing much better in overcoming phyletism that we do, except maybe in Quebec.
 
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