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Serbian Church Will Not Invite Pope To Nis

podkarpatska

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synLeszka said:
Irish Hermit said:
synLeszka said:
There was never 800.000 Serbs in Slavonia!
The Holocaust museum says:  It is presently estimated that the Ustaša regime murdered between 77,000 and 99,000 people in Jasenovac between 1941 and 1945. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005449
My opinion?  Be thankful that the Patriarch has found an excuse to withdraw his invitation for the Pope to come to Serbia.   There must be any number of people there who would like to fire a bullet into him.  For example, the grandchildren of those killed by the Ustasha under the approving eyes of Franciscans.  And of course Jasenovac had a Franciscan as camp commandant.
As if the Bulgarian KGB, in submission to the Russian KGB, ordering a Turk to shoot the Pope is not enough. I think that it is true, that the Serbian priests escalated the conflict in the early 1990's.
I think everyone has heard "popovi, pa topovi".

The mere suggestion of the thought of firing a bullet to the Pope from a monk and priest's mouth is insanity. Is that all you think about, shooting bullets through our bishops? Why are your thoughts so violent?
A Serbian/Orthodox monk suggests that Serbs will shoot the Pope if he comes to Serbia. Interesting, very interesting! Thank God I am not Serbian and I do not have to be in your church! I feel sorry for those baptised in your church, though.
To be fair to the Serbs, you can not paint an entire nation by the words and illegal acts of a few.

A little 'realpolitik' here. We all need to calm down a bit on this one.

Serbia is seeking admission into the EU. As part of that process, its new seemingly pro-Western, progressive government finally was able to arrest and turn the accused war criminal Ratko Mladic over to the Hague. It is no secret that their are still many  supporters of the disgraced Milosovic regime and Mladic remaining within Serbia and that inside of the Orthodox Church there is no small measure of support remaining for the former regime and its policies as well.

It would hardly assist the Serbian nation's efforts to join the EU if the upcoming ceremonies at Nis were to be disrupted by a random act of terror. Anyone remember August 1914?

So, if you were the new Patriarch and the Pope and you were both modern men, fully aware of history, why wouldn't you look for a reason to uninvite the Pope?

The one chosen appears to be a stroke of genius.

The Patriarch can appease the virulent anti-Western factions in his community; the Serbian government is relieved of the awesome responsibility of protecting the Pope's safety and averting a disastrous international incident; the Pope can shrug his shoulders and appease the virulent anti-Serb factions in Croatia by simply implying, 'That's those Serbs for you.....' and all parties gain 'street cred' for the factions they are trying to satisfy. Meanwhile, the Nuncio and the Patriarch's ambassadors have a glass of chianti or a toast of slivovica and the world goes on.

I think that is the real back story here.

I just love a hearty dose of Byzantine machinations coupled with a dash of Machiavelli with my morning coffee and newspaper.  ;)  That's the way of the grown up world.

Back to the garden and the garage clean up.....
 

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Again there are some who are trying to ignore history and "play games" with the facts.  Yes, the Croats were guilty of massacre and genocide 70 or so years ago, but the Serbs and their "Republic" of Krajina are much more recent and the massive onslaught that it attempted against the legitimate Croatian authority in the region.  The Croats had no choice but to strike because the Serbs threatened them with annihilation in the early 90's.  


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_War_of_Independence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Serbia




Milošević's vision of Greater Serbia in 1993.



Map of the strategic offensive plan of the Yugoslav People's Army (JNA) in Croatia, 1991. The JNA was unable to advance as far as planned due to Croatian resistance and mobilization problems.

Everything is not as black and white as some would have us believe.  The Serbs clearly wanted to deny the right of Croatia to have Independence and sovereignty.  They went even further by actually attempting a genocide agianst the poor Croats who bravely and successfully resisted.
 

podkarpatska

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^^And the bad old western powers stepped in and basically stopped them from killing each other off and both countries are trying to move on into the 21st century and integrate into the EU. Those of us who are neither Serb nor Croat probably don't have the right to an opinion, at least on the internet.
 

ialmisry

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Robb said:
Again there are some who are trying to ignore history and "play games" with the facts.  Yes, the Croats were guilty of massacre and genocide 70 or so years ago,
and 20 or so years ago.
Robb said:
but the Serbs and their "Republic" of Krajina are much more recent and the massive onslaught that it attempted against the legitimate Croatian authority in the region.
the Serbs in Krajina were only asserting the right claim by the Croats to seccede from Yugoslavia, as their comrade Tito set it up.

Robb said:
The Croats had no choice but to strike because the Serbs threatened them with annihilation in the early 90's.
The Croats threatened to pick up where their Ustashe fathers left off.  The Serbs had no choice.

Btw, in Bosnia, the Croats made no pretence, with maps in their schools showing BH in the Greater Croatia and Croatian currency being the legal tender in areas of Croat control.
As far as Bosnia and Herzegovina was concerned, Tuđman was more ambivalent: Tuđman did not take a separate Bosnia seriously as shown by his comments to a television crew "Bosnia was a creation of the Ottoman invasion [...] Until then it was part of Croatia, or it was a kingdom of Bosnia, but a Catholic kingdom, linked to Croatia."[40] He thought that Bosniaks are, essentially, Croats of Muslim faith and will, freed from Communist censorship, declare themselves ethnically as Croats, therefore making Bosnia a predominantly Croatian country (with 44% Bosniaks, 17% Croats and 33% Serbs). But, these illusions were soon dispelled.[41]
......

In 2004, six Bosnian Croats Jadranko Prlić, Bruno Stojić, Slobodan Praljak, Milivoj Petković, Valentin Corić, and Berislav Pušić were accused by the ICTY for being part of a joint criminal enterprise which included mass war crimes against Bosniak population during creation of ethnically pure Croatian quasi-state Herzeg-Bosnia on the territories of internationally recognized state of Bosnia and Herzegovina. According to the indictment numerous persons participated in this joint criminal enterprise. Each participant, by his or her acts, omissions, practices or conduct, both individually and in concert with or through other persons, substantially contributed to carrying out the enterprise and accomplishing its purpose. Franjo Tuđman, among others, participated in the joint criminal enterprise.[59] As the indictment mentions not just former President of the Republic of Croatia, Franjo Tuđman, but also other key figures from the Republic of Croatia (Gojko Šušak, former Minister of Defence and Janko Bobetko senior General), the government of the Republic of Croatia in 2006, filed the motion to be allowed to participate in the trial as the amicus curiae in order to "assist in the interpretation of historical and political facts and the determination of truth". The ICTY dismissed Croatia’s motion to appear as amicus curiae in the case, concluding that "it would not be in the interests of justice to allow a state – whose former political and military officials are named in the indictment as the participants in the joint criminal enterprise – to participate in the proceedings as the amicus curiae."[60]

It is true that Mr. Tuđman was not charged because he is dead, but alive, he would be here on the accused bench. General Bobetko, that he was alive, he would be accused of the bench. It should be borne in mind when talking about a joint criminal enterprise.[61]
—Judge Jean-Claude Antonetti
Had Tuđman lived longer, he would have been possibly brought up on war crimes charges by the UN Yugoslav war crimes tribunal in The Hague. Graham Blewitt, a senior Tribunal prosecutor, told the AFP wire service that "There would have been sufficient evidence to indict president Tuđman had he still been alive."[62] The Tribunal's indictment of Croatian general Ante Gotovina lists Tuđman as a key participant in a "joint criminal enterprise" aimed at the "permanent removal of the Serb population from the "Krajina" region by killing, force, fear or threat of force, persecution, forced displacement, transfer and deportation, appropriation and destruction of property other minority belongings & means."[63] In 1995, Carl Bildt had suggested that Franjo Tuđman was as guilty of war crimes as the "Krajina" Serb leader Milan Martić. Bildt was declared a persona non grata by Croatia following these statements.[64][65] because he "lost the credibility necessary for the role of a peace mediator".[64][65]

In the case of Gotovina et al., the Trial Chamber found Franjo Tudjman to had been the leader of a joint criminal enterprise the purpose of which was to permanently remove the Serb civilian population from the region of Croatia known as Krajina. The Chamber found that Tudjman was a key member and that he intended to repopulate the Krajina with Croats.[66]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franjo_Tu%C4%91man#Formation_of_the_national_program
Robb said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_War_of_Independence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Serbia


Robb said:


Milošević's vision of Greater Serbia in 1993.
Seems pretty close to the actual ethnic makeup before Yugoslavia began to breakup


Robb said:


Map of the strategic offensive plan of the Yugoslav People's Army (JNA) in Croatia, 1991. The JNA was unable to advance as far as planned due to Croatian resistance and mobilization problems.
The most recent expression of a Greater Croatia arose in the aftermath of the breakup of Yugoslavia. When the multiethnic Yugoslavian republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina declared independence in 1992, Bosnian Serb political representatives, who had boycotted the referendum, established their own government of Republika Srpska, whereupon their forces attacked the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

The subsequent war was principally a territorial conflict, initially between the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Bosnian Croat forces on the one side, and Bosnian Serb forces on the other. However, the Croats also aimed at securing parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina as Croatian.[5] With the 1991 Karađorđevo agreement between Croatian president Franjo Tuđman and Serbian president Slobodan Milošević, and with the Graz agreement of 1992, the Serb and Croat political leaderships agreed on a partition of Bosnia, resulting in the Croat forces turning on the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, leading to the Croat-Bosniak war.[6]

The policies of Croatia and Franjo Tuđman towards Bosnia and Herzegovina were never totally transparent and always included Tuđman's aim of expanding Croatia's borders.[7][5] After Tuđman's death, his successor, Stjepan Mesić, revealed thousands of documents and audio tapes recorded by Tuđman about his plans in regards to Bosnia and Herzegovina.[8][9] The tapes reveal that both Milosević and Tuđman ignored pledges to respect Bosnia's sovereignty, even after signing the Dayton accord.[8][9] In one conversation Tuđman told an official: Let's make a deal with the Serbs. Neither history nor emotion in the Balkans will permit multinationalism. We have to give up on the illusion of the last eight years... Dayton isn't working. Nobody- except diplomats and petty officials - believes in a sovereign Bosnia and the Dayton accords.[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Croatia#Bosnian_War

Robb said:
Everything is not as black and white as some would have us believe.  The Serbs clearly wanted to deny the right of Croatia to have Independence and sovereignty.  They went even further by actually attempting a genocide agianst the poor Croats who bravely and successfully resisted.
The Log Revolution (Croatian: Balvan revolucija) was a protest which started on August 17, 1990 in areas of the Republic of Croatia which were populated significantly by ethnic Serbs.[1]

The first democratic elections of Croatia, still within Yugoslavia, resulted in a victory for the pro-independence party of Franjo Tuđman. Tuđman's party, the Croatian Democratic Union, had already promulgated in their manifesto their intentions of recognising the non-Croatian population as minorities rather than constituent nations; and consequently, with Yugoslavia largely dysfunctional, the social status of Croatia's Serbs had been inevitably demoted overnight. In an act of protest, the Croatian Serbs in the areas where they formed a majority started to refuse authority to the new Croatian government and held several meetings and public rallies since early 1990 protesting their cause.[1]

Led by Milan Babić and Milan Martić, the local Serbs proclaimed SAO Kninska Krajina in August 1990 and began blockading roads connecting Dalmatia to the rest of Croatia. The blockade was mostly made from logs cut down from nearby woods, which is why the event was dubbed the "Log Revolution". The organizers were armed with illegal weapons supplied by Martić.[1] Since it was done during the Summer and severed land ties to Dalmatia, high economic damage was done to Croatian tourism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Log_revolution

 

biro

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The Serbs had no choice? Slobodan Milosevic had no choice?  ???

That's a new low, even for you.
 

ialmisry

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The Spirit is descended!
biro said:
The Serbs had no choice?
No.  When log protest didn't disuade the Ustashe, it fell to armed defense.

biro said:
Slobodan Milosevic had no choice?  ???
I didn't say a thing about Milosevic.

biro said:
That's a new low, even for you.
The Poglavnik [Fuehrer] wants you:


"For Poglavnik and Christ, Against Communism!!"


A recruiting poster for the Croatian Ustasha SS (as in Nazi SS) Black Legion. The poster was aimed in part at Bosnian Muslims; hence, one soldier is shown wearing a fez, the hat of fanatical Islam, and the town in the background includes a minaret (middle-right), part of a mosque.
The top line reads: "Croats of Herzeg-Bosnia!" Underneath is the crooked double S of the Nazi SS, plus the Ustasha checkerboard flag, brought back when Croatia seceded from Yugoslavia, for the second time, in 1991.

Two soldiers, presumably a Catholic and a Muslim, trample the Communist flag. The text reads: "The Great leaders Adolf Hitler and poglavnik [fuehrer] Dr. Ante Pavelic are calling you to defend your homes. Join the volunteer units of Croatian SS."
In 1995, here is what Tudjman said about the Serbs, as recorded and translated by the BBC Monitoring service:

"And [applause - BBC] there can be no return to the past, to the times when they the Serbs were spreading cancer in the heart of Croatia, cancer which was destroying the Croatian national being and which did not allow the Croatian people to be the master in its own house and did not allow Croatia to lead an independent and sovereign life under this wide, blue sky and within the world community of sovereign nations."

According to Tudjman, the Serbs were "cancer" -  exactly the sort of disease metaphor Nazi-types use when describing 'racial' enemies. Straight-forward Ustasha stuff, no pretense of standing up to supposed Serbian aggression. Rather, the presence of Serbs is in itself an aggression against some undefined (because indefinable) Croatian "national being."
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://emperors-clothes.com/croatia/u-legion.jpg&imgrefurl=http://emperors-clothes.com/croatia/times1.htm&usg=__nuUXaZ9v1sl97WHm123NlDwYFxg=&h=604&w=408&sz=26&hl=en&start=113&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=lCFCm8-nYAh4FM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=91&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dgreater%2Bcroatia%2Bmap%2Bza%2Bdom%2Bspremni%26start%3D100%26tbnid%3D0K1S8RwLqfY2oM:%26tbnh%3D0%26tbnw%3D0%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1259%26bih%3D654%26ndsp%3D20%26tbm%3Disch&ei=O9z3TbXqAq3diAKsmOX-DA
 

podkarpatska

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Let's not forget that the Croats were not the only ones tempted by the Axis to view the Fuhrer as the bulwark against Communism. There were plenty of Americans with similar sympathies in the German American Bund, Charles Lindbergh, Joe Kennedy and others who believed that an alliance among Britain, Germany and the US could stop Stalin and destroy communism. We can rehash 20th century history if we like, but the sad reality is that the innocent blood of millions of souls was shed across the continent of Europe. The major powers used one political, economic or religious justification or another to excuse, or more likely turn a blind eye towards, the overwhelming brutality. Americans tend to forget that from the beginning of the Franco-Prussian War in 1870 through the destruction of the Berlin Wall in 1989 and the Balkan war of the mid 1990's, many historians would argue that the major powers of the continent, or their surrogates, essentially were continually at war with limited periods of either armistice or 'cold' war interrupting the bloodshed.
 

stanley123

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trifon said:
stanley123 said:
trifon said:
stanley123 said:
Irish Hermit said:
And of course Jasenovac had a Franciscan as camp commandant.
I think that his tenure at Stara Grdiska was from the end of October 1942 until the end of March 1943. But, before that, he was expelled from the Franciscans on July 10, 1942.
http://www.ex-yupress.com/feral/feral240_05_potvrda_kongregacije_generalu_reda.pdf
The priest in question, his real name was Miroslav Filipović (known as Tomislav Filipović) was also charged and jailed for collusion and participation in the deaths of around 2300 Serbs in actions around Banja Luka in February 1942.  The Germans were afraid that this would trigger another Serbian revolt like what happened in Hercegovina in 1941
When and where was Miroslav Filipovic ordained as a Catholic priest?  Are you sure that he was ordained as a priest?  Catholic sources claim that he was never ordained as a priest and imply  that this is an example of one instance of many of disinformation. 
Well, I will concede that I have had not seen much evidence of his early life, and his ordination, other than that he entered the Franciscan Order in 1938, took the religious name Tomislav, and served as as chaplain of the 2nd Poglavnik's Guards Battalion from January 1942.  I would be interested to see some of the Catholic sources you mentioned. 

However, in regards to his actions in the villages of Drakulić and Šargovac, see Tomislav Dulić's Utopias of Nation: Local Mass Killings in Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1941-1942, especially pages 268-274, which is a published doctoratal thesis from 2005.  Dulić provides archival evidence from the Yugoslav Military Archives and Croatian State Archives, and eyewitness testimony, of General Ladislav Aleman, of the Croatian Home Guard who attests that Filipović personally took part in the killings.  Filipović, in interviews to Yugoslav authorities in 1945, admits that he was present at the massacres, though denies knowing what was going on.  He claimed that he was framed by the Germans, Italians, and the Vatican envoy, Giuseppe Marconi, in order to save the honour of the Poglavnik's Guards Battalions.

I will admit that former Yugoslav historiography surrounding the Second World War is filled with polemic, though Dulić's work, like Tomasevich's, are quite dispassionate. 
No one denies that he was a Franciscan brother. But you said he was a priest, and I don;t see the evidence proving that he was ever ordained as a Catholic priest.
 

stanley123

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Irish Hermit said:
synLeszka said:
There was never 800.000 Serbs in Slavonia!
The Holocaust museum says:  It is presently estimated that the Ustaša regime murdered between 77,000 and 99,000 people in Jasenovac between 1941 and 1945. http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005449
"How many persons were murdered in Jasenovac and the other concentration camps?

"In Bespuca povjesne zbiljnosti (The Wasteland of Historical Reality), Franjo Tudjman stated that ''about 60,000 perished in all the camps and prisons.'' According to Tudjman, 30,000 victims died at the Jasenovac camp.

In 1952, the Union of Jewish Councils of Yugoslavia, relying on the reports of Jewish survivors, concluded that, in the Jasenovac camp alone, ''500,000-600,000 people were slaughtered, among whom were about 20,000 Jews.''

"Menachem Shelah in The Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1990) gives the following figure: ''Some six hundred thousand people were murdered at Jasenovac, mostly Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, and opponents of the Ustasha regime. The number of Jewish victims was between twenty thousand and twenty-five thousand.''

"The Ustasha commander at Jasenovac, Frater Miroslav Filipovic-Majstorovic, during questioning after the war, stated that ''according to reports of Maks Luburic... about a half million Serbs were killed in the NDH during these four years.''

On October 20, 1994, Brussels Archbishop Cardinal Godfried Danneels in an interview to Vatican Radio, stated that ''even today it is impossible to say how many Serbs were assassinated in Croatian concentration camps in World War II, but for certain the number must have been over half a million persons.''"

Source :: http://ljiljana-zivojinovic.blogspot.com/2007_05_01_archive.html
According to the US Holocaust Memorial Museum,  "Between its establishment in 1941 and its evacuation in April 1945, Croat authorities murdered thousands of people at Jasenovac. Among the victims were: between 45,000 and 52,000 Serb residents of the so-called Independent State of Croatia; between 12,000 and 20,000 Jews; between 15,000 and 20,000 Roma (Gypsies); and between 5,000 and 12,000 ethnic Croats and Muslims, who were political and religious opponents of the regime."
On the other hand, this museum estimates that Croat authorities murdered about 330,000 Serbs in all. 
Obviously, this was a brutal and horrific situation that should never have happened.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005449
 

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stanley123 said:
trifon said:
stanley123 said:
trifon said:
stanley123 said:
Irish Hermit said:
And of course Jasenovac had a Franciscan as camp commandant.
I think that his tenure at Stara Grdiska was from the end of October 1942 until the end of March 1943. But, before that, he was expelled from the Franciscans on July 10, 1942.
http://www.ex-yupress.com/feral/feral240_05_potvrda_kongregacije_generalu_reda.pdf
The priest in question, his real name was Miroslav Filipović (known as Tomislav Filipović) was also charged and jailed for collusion and participation in the deaths of around 2300 Serbs in actions around Banja Luka in February 1942.  The Germans were afraid that this would trigger another Serbian revolt like what happened in Hercegovina in 1941
When and where was Miroslav Filipovic ordained as a Catholic priest?  Are you sure that he was ordained as a priest?  Catholic sources claim that he was never ordained as a priest and imply  that this is an example of one instance of many of disinformation. 
Well, I will concede that I have had not seen much evidence of his early life, and his ordination, other than that he entered the Franciscan Order in 1938, took the religious name Tomislav, and served as as chaplain of the 2nd Poglavnik's Guards Battalion from January 1942.  I would be interested to see some of the Catholic sources you mentioned. 

However, in regards to his actions in the villages of Drakulić and Šargovac, see Tomislav Dulić's Utopias of Nation: Local Mass Killings in Bosnia and Herzegovina, 1941-1942, especially pages 268-274, which is a published doctoratal thesis from 2005.  Dulić provides archival evidence from the Yugoslav Military Archives and Croatian State Archives, and eyewitness testimony, of General Ladislav Aleman, of the Croatian Home Guard who attests that Filipović personally took part in the killings.  Filipović, in interviews to Yugoslav authorities in 1945, admits that he was present at the massacres, though denies knowing what was going on.  He claimed that he was framed by the Germans, Italians, and the Vatican envoy, Giuseppe Marconi, in order to save the honour of the Poglavnik's Guards Battalions.

I will admit that former Yugoslav historiography surrounding the Second World War is filled with polemic, though Dulić's work, like Tomasevich's, are quite dispassionate. 
No one denies that he was a Franciscan brother. But you said he was a priest, and I don;t see the evidence proving that he was ever ordained as a Catholic priest.
It is not so much that I am saying he's a priest so much that a lot of available data says that about him.  As to his ordination, this site may be considered 'polemic' by some, but for biographical purposes:

http://www.jasenovac-info.com/cd/biblioteka/pavelicpapers/filipovic/index.html


Franciscan priest and enthusiastic commandant at Jasenovac. Known to inmates as Fra Sotona (Brother Devil) for his monstrous cruelty against inmates. Ordained in 1939 and served mass at Petricevac (near Banja Luka) until the proclamation of the Independent State of Croatia in 1941. From January 1942 he was a military chaplain, and was accused of taking part in terrible atrocities against the Serbian population. A German court singled him out for prosecution as part of a general attempt to halt the bloodletting in the NDH. Filipovic did not deny that the atrocities had happened, but claimed he took no part, and failed to act against the perpetrators owing to military solidarity. Removed from his post, he was appointed commandant of Jasenovac through the offices of Vjekoslav "Maks" Luburic. Captured by Communists after the war, summarily tried and executed
 

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Robb said:
Again there are some who are trying to ignore history and "play games" with the facts.  Yes, the Croats were guilty of massacre and genocide 70 or so years ago, but the Serbs and their "Republic" of Krajina are much more recent and the massive onslaught that it attempted against the legitimate Croatian authority in the region.  The Croats had no choice but to strike because the Serbs threatened them with annihilation in the early 90's.  


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_War_of_Independence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Serbia




Milošević's vision of Greater Serbia in 1993.



Map of the strategic offensive plan of the Yugoslav People's Army (JNA) in Croatia, 1991. The JNA was unable to advance as far as planned due to Croatian resistance and mobilization problems.

Everything is not as black and white as some would have us believe.  The Serbs clearly wanted to deny the right of Croatia to have Independence and sovereignty.  They went even further by actually attempting a genocide agianst the poor Croats who bravely and successfully resisted.
Everything is not black and white indeed.  While initially the Serbs were reluctant to let Croatia leave the Federation, this turned to the Serbs not wanting so much to 'deny' the right of Croatian indpendence, just the right of the Croats to take the majority of the Serb population with them, who opposed Croatian independence.  While there was media and political manipulation on the part of the Milošević regime (Arkan and Vojislav Šešelj had visited Serb areas before the conflict), the Croats and the Tuđman government didn't help their cause by demoting the status of the Serbs from a constituent people to a minority, sackings of Serbs from their jobs without reason, rehashing Ustaše symbols, some of which, like the šahovnica, predated the Ustaše.  The point is that the Croats didn't listen to or take Serb concerns seriously, nor did Tuđman seriously consider any sort of compromise with an increasingly alarmed Serbian community.  

I agree, that part of the reason the JNA couldn't advance so far as it intended was due to Croatian resistance, but it was facing desertions, logistic nightmares, and in some places, like Vukovar, there wasn't a clear chain of command until the appointment of General Života Panić in I believe September-October 1991.  Also, the JNA was neither a wholly Serb army, nor were all its higher echelons convinced nationalists, even during the initial stages of the conflicts in Croatia and in Bosnia.  Take the examples of Generals Milutin Kukanjac in Bosnia, Velko Kadijević (General and Defence Minister from 1988-1992),  and Milan Aksentijević, in Slovenia. 
 

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You are right Trifon.

There should have been a radical re-drawing of borders at the time to prevent war. If it can be done in Sudan it can be done and should have been done in the Balkans.

Krajina and the Serb majority cantons of Bosnia should have been made part of Serbia.

Croat Herzegovina a part of Croatia proper.

The central part of Bosnia left as a Bosniak state.

Fewer minorities = fewer problems for everyone.

Instead we got a Croatia totally cleansed of Serbs, a Bosnia split into two entities that despise each other, the Croats get a lesser say in Bosnia because they are stuck with Muslims and a totally fake "independent" Kosovo. Not too mention an independent Montenegro by the barest of margins.

 

stanley123

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trifon said:
 I would be interested to see some of the Catholic sources you mentioned.  
OK. If you are interested in a Catholic viewpoint on the issue, you might try the book:
author: Pattee, Richard, 1906-
The Case of Cardinal Aloysius Stepinac.
Milwaukee : Bruce Pub. Co., c1953
(OCoLC)582807579
Library of Congess Call number: DR359.S75 P3  

 

trifon

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stanley123 said:
trifon said:
 I would be interested to see some of the Catholic sources you mentioned.  
OK. If you are interested in a Catholic viewpoint on the issue, you might try the book:
author: Pattee, Richard, 1906-
The Case of Cardinal Aloysius Stepinac.
Milwaukee : Bruce Pub. Co., c1953
(OCoLC)582807579
Library of Congess Call number: DR359.S75 P3  
Thanks for this.  My university libraries don't have this work, but the British Library does.  I'll look into it.
 

serb1389

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Part of the problem with the RC church in all of this is that one of the main orchestrators of the Ustasha was Stepinac, who has been beatified by the RC church. 

The Catholic Church declared Stepinac a martyr on November 11, 1997,[20] and on October 3, 1998 Pope John Paul II declared that Stepinac had indeed been martyred while on pilgramage to Marija Bistrica to beatify him.[105] John Paul had earlier determined that where a candidate for sainthood had been martyred, his/her cause could be advanced without the normal requirement for evidence of a miraculous intercession by the candidate. Accordingly he beatified the late cardinal after saying these words: One of the outstanding figures of the Catholic Church, having endured in his own body and his own spirit the atrocities of the Communist system, is now entrusted to the memory of his fellow countrymen with the radiant badge of martyrdom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac#Nominations_to_Righteous_Among_the_Nations
 

synLeszka

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He was beatified for martyrdom. He was a martyr. He died for the faith. His death saved him.
 

ialmisry

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serb1389 said:
Part of the problem with the RC church in all of this is that one of the main orchestrators of the Ustasha was Stepinac, who has been beatified by the RC church.  

The Catholic Church declared Stepinac a martyr on November 11, 1997,[20] and on October 3, 1998 Pope John Paul II declared that Stepinac had indeed been martyred while on pilgramage to Marija Bistrica to beatify him.[105] John Paul had earlier determined that where a candidate for sainthood had been martyred, his/her cause could be advanced without the normal requirement for evidence of a miraculous intercession by the candidate. Accordingly he beatified the late cardinal after saying these words: One of the outstanding figures of the Catholic Church, having endured in his own body and his own spirit the atrocities of the Communist system, is now entrusted to the memory of his fellow countrymen with the radiant badge of martyrdom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac#Nominations_to_Righteous_Among_the_Nations
the same source has this:
In Britain, on 23 October 1946, Mr Richard Stokes MP declared in the House of Commons that,

[T]he archbishop was our constant ally in 1941, during the worst of the crisis, and thereafter, at a time when the Orthodox Church, which is now comme il faut with the Tito Government, was shaking hands with Mussolini....[73]
What an incredibly odd (and libelous) thing to say

And oh, btw, Tito was part of the Allies, and the Ustashe part of the Axis. Like Mussolimi.
 

stanley123

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trifon said:
stanley123 said:
trifon said:
 I would be interested to see some of the Catholic sources you mentioned.  
OK. If you are interested in a Catholic viewpoint on the issue, you might try the book:
author: Pattee, Richard, 1906-
The Case of Cardinal Aloysius Stepinac.
Milwaukee : Bruce Pub. Co., c1953
(OCoLC)582807579
Library of Congess Call number: DR359.S75 P3  
Thanks for this.  My university libraries don't have this work, but the British Library does.  I'll look into it.
Amazon has a used copy for sale for $4. It gives a different version of many events. 
 

BoredMeeting

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serb1389 said:
Part of the problem with the RC church in all of this is that one of the main orchestrators of the Ustasha was Stepinac, who has been beatified by the RC church. 

The Catholic Church declared Stepinac a martyr on November 11, 1997,[20] and on October 3, 1998 Pope John Paul II declared that Stepinac had indeed been martyred while on pilgramage to Marija Bistrica to beatify him.[105] John Paul had earlier determined that where a candidate for sainthood had been martyred, his/her cause could be advanced without the normal requirement for evidence of a miraculous intercession by the candidate. Accordingly he beatified the late cardinal after saying these words: One of the outstanding figures of the Catholic Church, having endured in his own body and his own spirit the atrocities of the Communist system, is now entrusted to the memory of his fellow countrymen with the radiant badge of martyrdom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac#Nominations_to_Righteous_Among_the_Nations
Stepinac approved of the conversion campaign against the Serbs and didn't revoke it even when it became obvious that Serbs were being threatened with death if they refused conversion (many were killed afterwards anyway).
 

ialmisry

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BoredMeeting said:
synLeszka said:
The same Serbs of Krajina in 1991 declared the Serbian Republic of Krajina. How could it be that after all the Serbs were liquadated, they arose from the dead and fought in 1991 for the rouge Serbian Krajina?
And how many are left now?
Lots.  They dug up their ancestors-literally-and escaped to Bosnia and Serbia.
 

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ialmisry said:
The Spirit is descended!
BoredMeeting said:
synLeszka said:
The same Serbs of Krajina in 1991 declared the Serbian Republic of Krajina. How could it be that after all the Serbs were liquadated, they arose from the dead and fought in 1991 for the rouge Serbian Krajina?
And how many are left now?
Lots.  They dug up their ancestors-literally-and escaped to Bosnia and Serbia.
The Ustashi goal was one third converted, one third exiled, and one third dead. Sounds as if modern Croatia parlayed the last two into reality.

My grandparents village in the Krajina has been stripped of any evidence that Serbs ever lived there. Serbian houses and tombstones with Cyrillic characters have been reduced to gravel. The burned remains of the Orthodox Church crumbles on a hilltop. Even the Croatian tourist guides warn visitors not to look too long on these sites unless the villages think they might be sympathetic to the Serbs and resort to violence.
 

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BoredMeeting said:
ialmisry said:
The Spirit is descended!
BoredMeeting said:
synLeszka said:
The same Serbs of Krajina in 1991 declared the Serbian Republic of Krajina. How could it be that after all the Serbs were liquadated, they arose from the dead and fought in 1991 for the rouge Serbian Krajina?
And how many are left now?
Lots.  They dug up their ancestors-literally-and escaped to Bosnia and Serbia.
The Ustashi goal was one third converted, one third exiled, and one third dead. Sounds as if modern Croatia parlayed the last two into reality.

My grandparents village in the Krajina has been stripped of any evidence that Serbs ever lived there. Serbian houses and tombstones with Cyrillic characters have been reduced to gravel. The burned remains of the Orthodox Church crumbles on a hilltop. Even the Croatian tourist guides warn visitors not to look too long on these sites unless the villages think they might be sympathetic to the Serbs and resort to violence.
If Putin had been in power at the time there would have been no NATO attack against the Serbs and Eastern Slavonia at the very least would have been a part of Serbia.
 

podkarpatska

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Byron said:
BoredMeeting said:
ialmisry said:
The Spirit is descended!
BoredMeeting said:
synLeszka said:
The same Serbs of Krajina in 1991 declared the Serbian Republic of Krajina. How could it be that after all the Serbs were liquadated, they arose from the dead and fought in 1991 for the rouge Serbian Krajina?
And how many are left now?
Lots.  They dug up their ancestors-literally-and escaped to Bosnia and Serbia.
The Ustashi goal was one third converted, one third exiled, and one third dead. Sounds as if modern Croatia parlayed the last two into reality.

My grandparents village in the Krajina has been stripped of any evidence that Serbs ever lived there. Serbian houses and tombstones with Cyrillic characters have been reduced to gravel. The burned remains of the Orthodox Church crumbles on a hilltop. Even the Croatian tourist guides warn visitors not to look too long on these sites unless the villages think they might be sympathetic to the Serbs and resort to violence.
If Putin had been in power at the time there would have been no NATO attack against the Serbs and Eastern Slavonia at the very least would have been a part of Serbia.
One could just as easily speculate that if Putin were in power that Russia would not have permitted the disintegration of the former Yugoslavia and would have interfered with the ascension of all of the nationalist politicians in the various republics. Alternative history is pointless as we will never know.
 
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