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Sharia Law in UK Unavoidable

Friul

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We will probably see a further move towards Nationalist Conservative and Nationalist Populist parties within Europe.  The flow of Muslim migrants and pushes like this will only further their voter base.  Unfortunatly, statements like his will only disenfranchise people with their faiths. 

Hopefully my party in the Italian election will do better this April.  :p
 

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TinaG said:
Europe is truly a lost cause.  If your so called religious leaders throw in the towel, then the pestilence of islam will not have anything to stop it.  Who'd have thought that one day in the not so distant future, America and Russia might be the last truly Christian nations?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7232661.stm
From what you are saying, I take it you consider what happens in the UK as representing the whole of Europe. Europe does not represent a nation nor a common policy among its members towards all matters. Each European country has its own historic and cultural background that conditions in many ways its present policies. The UK has such a strong tradition of islamic communities - established long before the "recent" immigrant islamic populations in other countries - that it is a case apart anyway. And it is a different case from that of the islamic communities in France, and from that of the islamic communities of Greece and so on. Each case has its own particularities and context so what happens in the UK cannot be seen as representing the whole of Europe, nor applying to the whole of Europe for that matter. I would also argue that islamic communities themselves vary quite a bit among these countries due to their cultural differences but I ´d probably sound naïve to most. I would simply like to point out Europe is a group of countries and generalising does not do justice to the cultures and nations it embraces.
 

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TinaG said:
Europe is truly a lost cause.
Since when is the UK Europe  :D  The English are fat, talk too loudly and are obnoxious tourists - essentially the 51st state  ;)

If your so called religious leaders throw in the towel, then the pestilence of islam will not have anything to stop it.  Who'd have thought that one day in the not so distant future, America and Russia might be the last truly Christian nations?
Not to worry, they're smoking them out in Germany

I'm actually really curious why anyone even cares what a religious leader, who more and more doesn't even have a flock in his home country, says about something.  Irrelevant religious leaders in the US are always saying wild things, and last time I checked the sky isn't actually falling.  And for that matter the UK and the Nethderlands have more troops per citizen than the US does that are part of ISAF in Afghanistan - so who is the one waiving the white flag to radical Islam again?
 

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What he apparently is saying is that he believes that Sharia Law and Courts will be raised to the level of English Common Law.  It opens many things up for example, can the Orthodox Christians likewise ask for acceptance of their spiritual courts that determine permission for divorce, etc be elevated to common-law status thus letting Orthodox Christians go to Church courts to determine issues among themselves and issue legal divorce decrees recognized by the  UK as legal decisions rather than spiritual determination alone? It certainly could hold down scandal outside the church by eliminating public exposure of Church issues and people in the Church who are disciplined----in all of these cases both parties must be willing submit to the court---ie.e if a Muslim refuses to accept Sharia Law they may go to English Court just as an Orthodox Christian may go to the state for a legal civil divorce if they refuse to submit to the ecclesiastical court. Kinda makes your head spin!

Thomas
 

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Sophie said:
From what you are saying, I take it you consider what happens in the UK as representing the whole of Europe. Europe does not represent a nation nor a common policy among its members towards all matters. Each European country has its own historic and cultural background that conditions in many ways its present policies. The UK has such a strong tradition of islamic communities - established long before the "recent" immigrant islamic populations in other countries - that it is a case apart anyway. And it is a different case from that of the islamic communities in France, and from that of the islamic communities of Greece and so on. Each case has its own particularities and context so what happens in the UK cannot be seen as representing the whole of Europe, nor applying to the whole of Europe for that matter. I would also argue that islamic communities themselves vary quite a bit among these countries due to their cultural differences but I ´d probably sound naïve to most. I would simply like to point out Europe is a group of countries and generalising does not do justice to the cultures and nations it embraces.
Thank you and point well taken.  I think my, probably overly generalistic and biased opinion, comes from an overdose of news, blogs, and internet opining.  Taken as a whole though, I don't think you can say Europe, including the UK, is in good shape with its islamic minorities, who given enough freedoms, government subsidies, and generally more prolific birth rates, will one day be in the majority of many countries.  And that's a scary thing.
 

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Νεκτάριος said:
Since when is the UK Europe  :D  The English are fat, talk too loudly and are obnoxious tourists - essentially the 51st state  ;)

Not to worry, they're smoking them out in Germany
I'm having a hard time telling whether you have an abyssmal sense of dry humor or are just being mean spirited and insensitive.
 

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obnoxious tourists - wear colored Haiwain shirts, talk louder and carry atleast 2 cameras.  Popular phrase: "Gee it is old?"

Uk has a bond with its former Empire.  Moslems are British if not by culture.  I suspect the push for Sharia law is not coming from the Pakistanis but from the same people who funded the Bolshevik Revolution.
 

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TinaG said:
I'm having a hard time telling whether you have an abyssmal sense of dry humor or are just being mean spirited and insensitive.
I'm not the one saying that "Europe is truly a lost cause.  If your so called religious leaders throw in the towel, then the pestilence of islam will not have anything to stop it."  If you want to spout off islamophobic and anti-immigration rhetoric, well behold the results of it.  Oddly enough nobody here seemed to jump on the anti-immigrant bandwagon when a Greek immigrant in Hessen bashed in the skull of a pensioner. 

As for the English, I was merely pointing out that culturally they just might have more in common with the US than continental Europe. 
 

greekischristian

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I wouldn't worry too much, the Europeans may put up some good talk about acceptance of minorities and multicultrulaism. But when push comes to shove, as it will in time with the Moslems, they'll just send them all to concentration camps and gas chambers...problem solved.
 

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Hmm..if I'm the Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net, is GiC OC.net's own Howard Stern?  :)
 

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observer said:
obnoxious tourists - wear colored Haiwain shirts, talk louder and carry atleast 2 cameras.  Popular phrase: "Gee it is old?"
Obnoxious tourists - wear England football shirts, talk louder and carry at least two pints of lager. Popular phrase: "Oi oi!!!!" (Atlernatively, some form of nursery rhyme, with crude alternate lyrics, or a football anthem).
 

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I'm sorry Nectarios but disregard my post "I'm having a hard time telling whether you have an abyssmal sense of dry humor or are just being mean spirited and insensitive."  I think GiC trumped it with his gas chamber/genocide comment.  ;)
 

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TinaG said:
I'm sorry Nectarios but disregard my post "I'm having a hard time telling whether you have an abyssmal sense of dry humor or are just being mean spirited and insensitive."  I think GiC trumped it with his gas chamber/genocide comment.  ;)
I'm always out done.  Bummer.

The radical difference in our views is that I think that fostering a multicultural society is very possible and has many benefits.  You mentioned Russia - other than the rise in skinhead violence in some cities and instability in Dagastan, Chechnya and Ingushetia (which is a deeper issue than just radical Islam) - Christians and Muslims live side by side in cities like Kazan without major problems.  Russian society might offer some insights for Europe and the US in Islamic integration.   

 

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Νεκτάριος said:
I'm always out done.  Bummer.

The radical difference in our views is that I think that fostering a multicultural society is very possible and has many benefits.  You mentioned Russia - other than the rise in skinhead violence in some cities and instability in Dagastan, Chechnya and Ingushetia (which is a deeper issue than just radical Islam) - Christians and Muslims live side by side in cities like Kazan without major problems.  Russian society might offer some insights for Europe and the US in Islamic integration.   
Nektarios,

One of our neighbors, who is a history prof. at Stanford, wrote a book describing how Tsarist Russia was over time able to govern large Muslim populations as that empire expanded into Muslim territories. After the fall of Communism, our neighbor was allowed to travel into the country of Georgia, and was given access to historical government documents from the 19th century. His findings were that the Russian government used its bureaucracy to control and regulate the Muslim faith. For example: only government approved imams were allowed to minister to the needs of a particular Muslim village. These government approved imams could only attend government sanctioned schools. None were allowed to travel into the Ottoman empire to attend radical Muslim institutions. Any radical, renegade imam who might travel into a village and try to usurp power from the government approved imam would be reported to the Russian authorities and would be arrested, imprisoned or exiled. Muslim women were given access to Russian court system in the cases of kidnapping, wife beating, divorce, neglect etc in an attempt to improve the dignity of these women. In other words, the Russians kept tight control over a very unregulated faith. One of the outcomes of this regulation was that the Russian government was able to shape the Muslim religion within its borders because it was able to keep the more radical forms of this religion from gaining a foothold.

For anyone interested in the book: Prophet and Tsar by Robert Crews
 

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Obnoxious tourists - wear England football shirts, talk louder and carry at least two pints of lager. Popular phrase: "Oi oi!!!!" (Atlernatively, some form of nursery rhyme, with crude alternate lyrics, or a football anthem).  I luv it!  That is what Xs say about all Ys  ::)
 

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Tamara said:
For anyone interested in the book: Prophet and Tsar by Robert Crews
Thank you, Tamara.  That sounds like a really good book.  Right in the Volga heartland of Russia there are upwards of seven million Muslims.  Through good policies of promoting their culture, language, education and even funding the building of Mosques they have been largely placated.  Also, the Russian Orthodox Church has very good relations with most of the Muslims in Russia. 

Riddikulus said:
My goodness, this is exactly what we English say about Americans!!!  :laugh:
That was exactly my reaction when I first heard that from some continental Europeans - what do you say about Americans then?!? 

Over my cold, dead body!!  :p
 

Best to keep a close eye on those impetuous colonies.  ;)
 

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Hey Guys--


I don't think they'll gas 'em up, GIC---European countries might just band together and buy an Island and ship all the Moslems there...like how Australia used to be the dumping grounds for the unsavory. Nowadays, ya know, they can create Islands....saw it on my ol' babysitter, Mr. TV.
Of course, they'll have to create jobs for armed guards to patrol around the Islamic Islands...so, it's good for the economy!   ;)   :police:


Myrrh23
 

greekischristian

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Myrrh23 said:
Hey Guys--


I don't think they'll gas 'em up, GIC---European countries might just band together and buy an Island and ship all the Moslems there...like how Australia used to be the dumping grounds for the unsavory. Nowadays, ya know, they can create Islands....saw it on my ol' babysitter, Mr. TV.
Of course, they'll have to create jobs for armed guards to patrol around the Islamic Islands...so, it's good for the economy!   ;)   :police:


Myrrh23
Oh yes, that's the first thing to be tried, but when shipping all the undesirables to Madagascar becomes too logistically difficult, concentration camps and gas chambers are set up.
 

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I found some numbers, do not know how reliable they are but there:

http://www.islamicpopulation.com/europe_general.html

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_islam_usa.html

Interestingly Russia seems to have the highest - by far - percentage of muslim population.

I do not know whether many of you have met any blond, blue-eyed cradle muslims - and I mean almost Scandinavian blond. I did, when at uni, meet a couple of Croatian girls whose families were muslim - I guess they have been all the way back to the Ottoman Empire. Now, this I had never known before nor imagined, what with being younger and ignorant and coming from a solely Orthodox background. They were not that involved in their religion but that goes for a lot of people  regardless of religion. Still, one cannot help thinking what preconceived ideas a lot of us have of others, classifying and generalising indiscriminately. Just as culture and tradition shapes differently churches of the same faith - and I am not even getting into the doctrinal differences - in Christianity, it does have the same effect on all religions. Just as  I think they may think of us - Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant alike - all the same, projecting the errors or particularities of one group onto everyone named a Christian. Just as they may think that because there has been Inquisition once, we are all guilty of it. Just as they may think that we all sing Gospel or that we all handle snakes and practise glossolalia...It´s all Christian to them, is it not?
 

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Tamara said:
Nektarios,

One of our neighbors, who is a history prof. at Stanford, wrote a book describing how Tsarist Russia was over time able to govern large Muslim populations as that empire expanded into Muslim territories.
Shouldn't the Muslims have simply been given the option to convert or move along? (the century following the above plan was not so good for Tzarist Russia). 

The Latins don't hold exclusivity over this statement below:

Luk 19:26 - 27 : For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me.
 

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Sophie said:
I do not know whether many of you have met any blond, blue-eyed cradle muslims - and I mean almost Scandinavian blond. I did, when at uni, meet a couple of Croatian girls whose families were muslim - I guess they have been all the way back to the Ottoman Empire. Now, this I had never known before nor imagined, what with being younger and ignorant and coming from a solely Orthodox background. They were not that involved in their religion but that goes for a lot of people  regardless of religion. Still, one cannot help thinking what preconceived ideas a lot of us have of others, classifying and generalising indiscriminately. Just as culture and tradition shapes differently churches of the same faith - and I am not even getting into the doctrinal differences - in Christianity, it does have the same effect on all religions. Just as  I think they may think of us - Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant alike - all the same, projecting the errors or particularities of one group onto everyone named a Christian. Just as they may think that because there has been Inquisition once, we are all guilty of it. Just as they may think that we all sing Gospel or that we all handle snakes and practise glossolalia...It´s all Christian to them, is it not?
Your observations remind me of Malcom X!  Meeting a white muslim during a pilgrimage is precisely what made Malcolm X tone down his rhetoric later in his life.  He never, ever thought he'd ever meet a blond-haired, blue eyed Muslim and when he did, his entire world went into a state of upheavel.  His religion told him he had to accept this "blue eyed devil" as a brother in Islam, but his experience back home in the US told him that white people were not his brothers and most certainly weren't Muslims.  He had to choose between his religion and his experience, and, surprisingly even to himself, he chose his religion, more or less.  While I can't agree with his choice of religion, I have to respect and even admire his conviction to his faith and his ability to admit he was wrong to a large degree thanks to a spiritual awakening, of sorts.  This choice most likely led to his later assasination, IMHO.

 

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ROCORthodox said:
Shouldn't the Muslims have simply been given the option to convert or move along? (the century following the above plan was not so good for Tzarist Russia). 

The Latins don't hold exclusivity over this statement below:

Luk 19:26 - 27 : For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me.
From what I remember reading in the book, the Tsarist government had conquered the land of the Muslims. The Muslims hadn't moved into Russian lands. There were so many Muslims that the government sought ways to subdue and govern them. Regulation of their faith worked well for that purpose.
Also, remember at that time, large Orthodox Christian populations were under the Ottoman rule. If the Tsar chose to force
conversion on the Muslims under their control at the point of a gun, it is possible the Turks would have retaliated against their Christian populations. The Russians were keenly aware of plight of the Orthodox Christians in Asia Minor and the middle east. According to my Syrian grandfather, the Tsar did as much as he could to alleviate their suffering. Many Syrians and Lebanese etc. had a deep love of the Tsar for the protection and aid he supplied to them.
 

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Sophie said:
Still, one cannot help thinking what preconceived ideas a lot of us have of others, classifying and generalising indiscriminately. Just as culture and tradition shapes differently churches of the same faith - and I am not even getting into the doctrinal differences - in Christianity, it does have the same effect on all religions. Just as  I think they may think of us - Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant alike - all the same, projecting the errors or particularities of one group onto everyone named a Christian. Just as they may think that because there has been Inquisition once, we are all guilty of it. Just as they may think that we all sing Gospel or that we all handle snakes and practise glossolalia...It´s all Christian to them, is it not?
It is sad that the great diversity within Islam is often lost on the outside world and being actively suppressed by insidious forces from within.  Rather than seeing some of the world greatest poetics and philosophers, some very unique cultures and some of the friendliest and most hospitable people, all that is often seen is Saudi inspired radicalism - which like most of the fundamentalist forms of Christianity dates no further back than the 19th century. 

ROCORthodox said:
Shouldn't the Muslims have simply been given the option to convert or move along? (the century following the above plan was not so good for Tzarist Russia). 
I'm not really sure what you mean by move along.  The only entirely nomadic groups conquered in the 19th century were were the Kazakhs and the Kyrgyz.  Many Kazakhs (and a trickle of Kyrgyz) did in fact simply move along to what is today Xinjiang, China. 

FWIW, here is the follow up on the initial article from the bbc:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7233335.stm
 

chris

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Looks like there's some more fallout from this discussion of Sharia in Britain:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7235550.stm

Williams 'shocked' at Sharia row

The Archbishop of Canterbury is said to be overwhelmed by the "hostility of the response" after his call for parts of Sharia law to be recognised in the UK.
Friends of Dr Rowan Williams say he is in a state of shock and cannot believe the criticism from his own Church.

All the main political parties, secular groups and some senior Muslims have expressed dismay at his comments.

However, the Bishop of Hulme, the Rt Rev Stephen Lowe, criticised the "disgraceful" treatment of Dr Williams.

The BBC understands from sources who work on Christian-Muslim interfaith issues that Dr Williams has faced a barrage of criticism from within the Church and has been genuinely taken aback by how his words were received.

Resignation call


Islamic Sharia law is a legal and social code designed to help Muslims live their daily lives, but it has proved controversial in the West for the extreme nature of some of its punishments.

Culture Secretary Andy Burnham said moves such as those suggested by the archbishop would create "social chaos".

The Reverend Rod Thomas, chairman of evangelical Church group Reform, said the archbishop's comments were unhelpful.

"The Church at the moment, and the country, needs a clear lead. The country is itself in a debate about its own sense of identity," he said.

"The moral values that we pursue are ones that we need to know are clearly grounded, and it would be most helpful for the leader of the Church to be able to explain to people how the values we cherish stem from our Christian tradition."

UKIP MEP Gerard Batten said it would be the "thin end of the wedge" and called on the archbishop to resign.


He said: "I think he's shown he is totally unfit for the role he undertakes. He's not fit to be Archbishop of Canterbury, he doesn't seem to know what his own business is, and he's not fit to sit in the House of Lords. I think he should go."


'Hysterical misrepresentations'

However, the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) said it was grateful for the archbishop's "thoughtful intervention".

The organisation added that it was saddened by the "hysterical misrepresentations" of his speech, which would only "drive a wedge between British people".

Muhammed Abdul Bari, Secretary-General of the MCB, said: "The archbishop is not advocating implementation of the Islamic penal system in Britain.

"His recommendation is confined to the civil system of Sharia law, and only in accordance with English law and agreeable to established notions of human rights."

Bishop Lowe said the archbishop had been "ridiculed" and "lampooned" by some people.

"We have probably one of the greatest and the brightest Archbishops of Canterbury we have had for many a long day," he said.

Catherine Heseltine, from the Muslim Public Affairs Committee, said some people might be getting the wrong end of the stick.

"I'm concerned this debate is getting out of control because people hear the word Sharia and instantly scary images of beheadings," she said.

"But this is not what British Muslims want and it's not what British Muslims are asking for in any way."

'British values'

She added: "Sharia in our everyday lives means things like certification of halal meat, in the same way as Jewish religious bodies will certify kosher meat. No-one's forced to eat it but it's a choice if consumers want to buy it."

Dr Williams told BBC Radio 4 on Thursday that he believed the adoption of some Sharia law in the UK seemed "unavoidable".

In an interview with BBC correspondent Christopher Landau, Dr Williams said Muslims should not have to choose between "the stark alternatives of cultural loyalty or state loyalty".

Gordon Brown's spokesman said the prime minister "believes that British laws should be based on British values", but that the archbishop was perfectly entitled to express his views.

Home Office Minister Tony McNulty said to fundamentally change the rule of law and adopt Sharia law would be "fundamentally wrong."

Shaista Gohir, a government advisor on Muslim women, said the majority of British Muslims did not want Sharia courts.

Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg said he did not agree with the archbishop him on the issue.

Under English law, people may devise their own way to settle a dispute in front of an agreed third party as long as both sides agree to the process.

Muslim Sharia courts and Orthodox Jewish courts which already exist in the UK come into this category.

 

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I live in a British major city with a very large Moslem population. Looking at today's  Birmingham Mail I find a headline "City Muslims say 'no' tp Sharia law'.

This appears to be a small item taken from an intellectual article by Dr Williams. Indeed it appears to be an example, possibly, of yet another British 'liberal' seeking to speak for a community and doing neither them or the larger community any favours; rather inciting resentment and bad feelings between peoples.

For myself the very idea of even comtemplating introducing an equality here between UK civil law and Sharia law is totally abhorent and potentially another step on the already slippery slope we find ourselves in over here; due to an out of touch political elite with supposedly 'liberal' ideals but rather authoritarian and committed to a programme of multiculturalism which has led to London becoming rightly labelled by French law enforcement and intelligence agencies as Londonistan.

As has already been written, Europe is a big place with very different approaches to multiculturalism, immigration and minorities, varying from bending over backwards to accommodate incomers while disregarding the feelings of large sections of the indigenous population to indifference and frank prejudice.
 

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Hey Guys--


I'm picturing the sign above one concentration camp: "Christianity Makes Free"...gives me the willies. Muslims should not be forced to convert, otherwise they'll be praying to Christ with a false heart. Oh, we'll have a few who would eventually give their Valentine to Christ, but I suspect that most would dress up in their Friday (Friday is their Sunday) Best for the gas chambers, but not without indulging in their favorite sport: JIHAD!
(War of the World's original movie music plays in the background)
Besides, it would just be..you know..mean. If we're offended by their screams to "convert or else", I'm sure they wouldn't be wearing a Walmart smile if Christians spitwad out the same words.

Me thinks Paris isn't taking it up the wazoo to accomodate Muslim immigrants...maybe they deserve the trouble they get? Any thoughts on that?

Myrrh23
 

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It seems to me that when you move to a new country, you agree to live by the values and principles of their society; those who are not willing to accept the jurisdiction of Her Majesty's Courts and the western principles of jurisprudence associated with them should simply be deported.
 

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greekischristian said:
It seems to me that when you move to a new country, you agree to live by the values and principles of their society; those who are not willing to accept the jurisdiction of Her Majesty's Courts and the western principles of jurisprudence associated with them should simply be deported.
Well said, GiC.  I always know when Muslims are the subject, we agree.  :laugh:
 

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Hey GIC--


I've read that the reason Muslim youth are rioting so much in Paris is because France has basically herded them into crappy housing, gives them crappy choices at education, and doesn't help them job-wise. What's your knowledge of this? I agree that radicalism is far-reaching (maybe it's just Islam?), as it seems that in Britain and Spain, they are accomodated well.

Myrrh23

Btw, when I say "Hey", it's just my way of saying "Hello". It can seem rude.  :)                                           
 

Riddikulus

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greekischristian said:
It seems to me that when you move to a new country, you agree to live by the values and principles of their society; those who are not willing to accept the jurisdiction of Her Majesty's Courts and the western principles of jurisprudence associated with them should simply be deported.
I agree with you, GIC, to a point. But what you have to remember is that we have British Muslims, born and breed citizens; where are they to be deported to? And there are, afterall, laws incorporated in English Law that are specifically for the Orthodox Jew. Perhaps you have similar instances in the US?

But on the whole, I sort of see this statement of the Archbishop's and the ensuing backlash, as a storm in the teacup situation where again we have a churchman, trying to be as loving and fair as possible, but who is not really being very streetwise. I strongly believe in the Archbishop's right to make his statements and I also believe in the right to object very vocally. I'm all for fairplay, but I really do think that this could be the thin edge of the wedge when we consider the history of Islam.

I really do, however, feel that the opening statement that Europe is a lost cause is a little over the top.  :-\



 

greekischristian

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Riddikulus said:
I agree with you, GIC, to a point. But what you have to remember is that we have British Muslims, born and breed citizens; where are they to be deported to? And there are, afterall, laws incorporated in English Law that are specifically for the Orthodox Jew. Perhaps you have similar instances in the US?
No, we do not have any such instances, such a law would be in violation of the First Amendment to our Constitution.

To quote Cicero on this matter, 'Not every multitude of men gathered together is a nation, but only such who have agreed to live by common lawful rule for the common advantage.' The evils of sharia law aside, the very notion of having a different set of laws for different citizens is contrary to the most fundamental understanding of justice and equal protection under the law. Either a law is just, in which case it should apply to all citizens, or it is unjust, in which case it should apply to none.
 

DerekMK

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greekischristian said:
the very notion of having a different set of laws for different citizens is contrary to the most fundamental understanding of justice and equal protection under the law. Either a law is just, in which case it should apply to all citizens, or it is unjust, in which case it should apply to none.
With Islam it is particularly tricky as how do you define who is and who isn't a Muslim?  And if someone were to no longer wish to be considered a Muslim by the law (whether they become apostates, or simply are raised in the faith but decide not to practice as adults or whatever) a compiled list of former Muslims would have to be kept - and should that list fall into the wrong hands it could be a disaster. 
 

TinaG

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I feel a little hypocritical for having started this thread and railed against the islamization of the free world and its threat to Christians, but it seems the only suggestions seem to be about repressing islam, deportation (which wouldn't be an option if so many muslims hadn't been invited in), etc...  It's a tricky situation to deal with a religion whose tenets basically deny Western values of free choice, plurality and debate, without becoming as oppressive.  Short of wishing islam would just disappear from the earth, I think the only thing that will turn the tide against islam will be strong evangelism and an unwavering Christian faith.  However, the brutal violence of islam has got  a lot of people (me included) thinking twice about making evangelizing muslims or making public statements against islam knowing they could get you hurt or killed. 
 
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