Short video comparing Orthodox and (Roman) Catholic liturgy

[PJ]

Good thread. I can't remember the last time I witnessed so many people on this forum defending the (W)estern Church.

 

[Apotheoun]

I am sure some people will not like what I am about to say, but the whole division of the liturgical services of the Roman Church into the "Ordinary Form" and the "Extraordinary Form" reminds me of the 1970s Episcopal Church in the USA with its "Rite 1" and "Rite 2."

And just as "Rite 2" (i.e., the contemporary rite) in the Episcopal Church involved updating and banalizing the liturgy, so too the "Ordinary Form" of the Roman Rite involves the same type of liturgical impoverishment.  I have been to "Ordinary Form" Masses in Northern and Southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Ohio, West Virginia, and Pennsylvania, and have found most to be just as bad as the LA Religious Congress liturgies.

 

[Keble]

Sad that the Easter Vigil Mass is not even ad orientem.

St. Pete's has never celebrated ad orientum in the current building.

 

[choy]

Good thread. I can't remember the last time I witnessed so many people on this forum defending the (W)estern Church.

One thing I loved about many of the Orthodox I meet online is that they are not ashamed of the truth, even if it seesm to be siding with a position that is against or opposite their normal position.  Most Catholics I come across online (*cough* *CAF*) would staunchly defend the perceived position of the Catholic Church regardless of what was true or even sane.

 

[Apotheoun]

Sad that the Easter Vigil Mass is not even ad orientem.

St. Pete's has never celebrated ad orientum in the current building.

Actually, because the altar is in the Western end of the Church, the pope does celebrate ad orientem.  In fact, as Fr. Louis Bouyer pointed out in one of his books, it was the people, and not the pope, who had to turn around in order to face East during liturgies in St. Peter's (both old and new).

 

[theistgal]

Good thread. I can't remember the last time I witnessed so many people on this forum defending the (W)estern Church.

FWIW I do love the Western Church when it's at its best - it just hasn't been at its best lately (like in the past 40-50 years).  ;D

But ... I'm rereading my all-time favorite novel, "In This House of Brede" by Rumer Godden - and if any of you have ever read it, you know exactly what I mean when I say, THAT'S the Western Church I remember and love - and keep hoping to find again ...  

 

[PJ]

I also understand there's a rule allowing the readings (lesson/epistle and gospel) at the altar to be in the vernacular, but I understand trads in Europe do that but not in America.

Really have to wonder why not.

 

[88Devin12]

I don't understand why they, through the Novus Ordo, allow Masses to be celebrated in the vernacular, but then they don't allow the Tridentine Mass to be celebrated in the vernacular.

 

[Cavaradossi]

I also understand there's a rule allowing the readings (lesson/epistle and gospel) at the altar to be in the vernacular, but I understand trads in Europe do that but not in America.

Really have to wonder why not.

LARPing

 

[Cyrillic]

I also understand there's a rule allowing the readings (lesson/epistle and gospel) at the altar to be in the vernacular, but I understand trads in Europe do that but not in America.

Really have to wonder why not.

Because Latin is awesome.

 

[Serge]

I am sure some people will not like what I am about to say, but the whole division of the liturgical services of the Roman Church into the "Ordinary Form" and the "Extraordinary Form" reminds me of the 1970s Episcopal Church in the USA with its "Rite 1" and "Rite 2."

And just as "Rite 2" (i.e., the contemporary rite) in the Episcopal Church involved updating and banalizing the liturgy, so too the "Ordinary Form" of the Roman Rite involves the same type of liturgical impoverishment.  I have been to "Ordinary Form" Masses in Northern and Southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Ohio, West Virginia, and Pennsylvania, and have found most to be just as bad as the LA Religious Congress liturgies.

Good analogy. You'd think that the difference between Catholic and Episcopal doctrine would have made the Catholics have a conservative high-church option like Rite I after Vatican II and the Episcopalians (most of whom identify as Protestant) not but that's not what happened. As Thomas Day describes in his books, English-speaking Catholics are less attached to elaborate ceremonies than other Catholics, for historical reasons nothing to do with the theology; partly because of that, the liberals in the Catholic Church were ruthless suppressing the old ways once they came into power. And why in those countries there wasn't a big traditionalist pushback. Definitely a theological civil war. The Episcopalians despite their liberalism don't have that aversion to high ceremonial. (A reason liberal Catholics don't all just convert to that.)

Interesting how I understand Rite I came about. They didn't just keep the old service or slightly edit it like it seems. They started with the rewrite, creating Rite II, then retrofitted it to make the more old-fashioned-sounding Rite I. In many places it was a polite, workable compromise for many years: the relatively conservative got the early Sunday service, the more liberal the later one.

By the way, I think the little Polish National Catholic Church in America, an 1890s immigrant split from Catholicism (parallelling the Toth departures to Orthodoxy), did keep a traditional service, their Tridentine Mass in Polish, as an option alongside their Contemporary Mass in English, which most of them now use, which, like Rite II, largely copies the Novus Ordo.

It's ironic the Episcopalians banalized their service over 30 years ago partly to imitate the Catholics for ecumenical reasons, while at the same time moving farther from Catholicism by ordaining women for example. Then again the Catholic changes were a protestantization. As far as I know they're not changing Rite II to go along with Pope Benedict's conservative reform of the Novus Ordo in English. I don't know if the PNCC is changing its service.

Makes the Old Believer schism and the Orthodox calendar war look like small potatoes!

I think the only prayers in English that Catholics are sentimentally attached to are the ones they've used for centuries in the Rosary, the Our Father and Hail Mary, which are 'thou' everywhere, even in the Our Father at Mass. The Glory Be is pretty inflexible in practice too, though they say 'Holy Spirit', not 'Holy Ghost'. Makes sense. Beyond that, they have no long tradition of worshipping in English. Probably why Pope Benedict's fixes at the end of 2011, while thrilling to the theologically sound, weren't a big deal to most people in the pews.

 

[PJ]

By the way, I think the little Polish National Catholic Church in America, an 1890s immigrant split from Catholicism (parallelling the Toth departures to Orthodoxy), did keep a traditional service, their Tridentine Mass in Polish, as an option alongside their Contemporary Mass in English, which most of them now use, which, like Rite II, largely copies the Novus Ordo.

A point of interest: a couple years ago the PNCC changed "and with your spirit" to "and also with you".

But, generally, I agree with you.

 

[lubeltri]

It boils down to this analogy: The current crisis is the West's version of Iconoclasm. And like the Eastern Church recovered in the 9th century, so will the West. In fact, it's already happening, though Rome was not (re)built in a day!

Even in L.A. it's slowly happening with the new Opus Dei Archbishop Gomez. The Mahony era is over.

 

[choy]

I don't understand why they, through the Novus Ordo, allow Masses to be celebrated in the vernacular, but then they don't allow the Tridentine Mass to be celebrated in the vernacular.

It is because the Tridentine Mass is the Mass celebrated by Jesus himself during the Last Supper in Latin, transcribed by St. John, infallibly declared by St. Peter to be the one true Mass and commanded the other Apostles who were under him to use this Mass throughout time unchanged.

;D ;D ;D

 

[Cyrillic]

I don't understand why they, through the Novus Ordo, allow Masses to be celebrated in the vernacular, but then they don't allow the Tridentine Mass to be celebrated in the vernacular.

Because the TM was supposed to be a standardisation to prevent liturgical abuses that were present before the Reformation.

 

[mike]

It boils down to this analogy: The current crisis is the West's version of Iconoclasm. And like the Eastern Church recovered in the 9th century, so will the West. In fact, it's already happening, though Rome was not (re)built in a day!

I disagree. Iconoclasm had serious christological implications. It lead to denying of the Incarnation, Docetism. I don't see such theological implications is the current situation of the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Serge]

I agree with lubeltri that it's like iconoclasm.

Regarding the rule on Latin, I think it was also an answer to some Protestants who claimed that if the people don't understand the service, it doesn't give them grace.

Thinking more about the Rites I and II comparison, the traditional Mass is like the 1928 Book of Common Prayer and its unofficial catholicized versions such as the American Missal (the 1928 Communion service fitted into the structure of the Tridentine Mass), the Episcopal Church's 'pre-Vatican II' services, actually banned in at least some dioceses after the change in 1979, rather like the traditional Mass in much of the Catholic Church until recently. (I think they need the bishop's permission to use that, just like the Tridentine Mass in most of the Catholic Church from 1984 until 2007.) Rite I is like the 'reform of the reform' conservative Catholics who high-churchify the Novus Ordo so it resembles the traditional Mass, something maybe you saw a little more of before Pope Benedict lifted all the restrictions on the Tridentine Mass more than three years ago. But maybe with different intentions? Reform-of-the-reform Catholics are conservative. I think the writers of Rite I were liberals trying to get conservatives on board with their program by disguising the new service as almost like the old. Some trads suspect the reform of the reform of being a con like that. By the way, the Church of England has done the same thing ever since its changes, offering a 'thou' version of its new services.

The PNCC well could have used 'and with your spirit' in its Contemporary Mass until recently but I find that hard to believe. It used to have a better website, which had that Mass text. I remember a close copy of the Novus Ordo as it was at the time. The PNCC at its best has an aspect of down-home traditionalism, from Polish culture.

 

[Apotheoun]

It boils down to this analogy: The current crisis is the West's version of Iconoclasm. And like the Eastern Church recovered in the 9th century, so will the West. In fact, it's already happening, though Rome was not (re)built in a day!

Even in L.A. it's slowly happening with the new Opus Dei Archbishop Gomez. The Mahony era is over.

I hope you're right, but I find it sad that Archbishop Gomez continues to participate (as the main celebrant) in these weird Religious Education Congress liturgies.

 

[Serge]

Pope Benedict lifted all the restrictions on the Tridentine Mass more than three years ago.

Five years ago. Tempus fugit.

 

[Cyrillic]

Pope Benedict lifted all the restrictions on the Tridentine Mass more than three years ago.

Five years ago. Tempus fugit.

Indeed it does.

 

[choy]

The problem with the Tridentine Mass today is that it has caused a division in the Roman Catholic Church.  People exclusively attend one Litrugy over another in the same Ritual Church.

 

[lubeltri]

It boils down to this analogy: The current crisis is the West's version of Iconoclasm. And like the Eastern Church recovered in the 9th century, so will the West. In fact, it's already happening, though Rome was not (re)built in a day!

I disagree. Iconoclasm had serious christological implications. It lead to denying of the Incarnation, Docetism. I don't see such theological implications is the current situation of the Roman Catholic Church.

I certainly do. The liturgical crisis has had profound theological effects. Read this for more:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1586171275

 

[lubeltri]

The problem with the Tridentine Mass today is that it has caused a division in the Roman Catholic Church.  People exclusively attend one Litrugy over another in the same Ritual Church.

I and all of my friends do both. You see that with the younger generation.

 

[Serge]

The problem with the Tridentine Mass today is that it has caused a division in the Roman Catholic Church.  People exclusively attend one Liturgy over another in the same Ritual Church.

But the traditional church isn't monolithic. Different countries have different customs, and of course there are different rites in one communion. For example the West has the Ambrosian (Milanese) Rite or Use depending on how you count it (is something that shares the Roman Canon with the Roman Rite really a separate rite?) and of course there are the Eastern rites starting with partial conversions or (mostly failed) attempts to bring back the Orthodox and other Eastern churches, like the small Western Rite experiments in Orthodoxy that some Orthodox don't like for similar reasons.

I thought of some of this when writing about Rites I and II and their equivalents. As long as the new service isn't heretical and the old service isn't banned, and even though writing a liturgy from scratch is wrong (but not heretical), sure, try it out. Have 'the kids' Mass' in the side chapel or something as the late Mass. By the way 'the kids' don't want the guitars, etc. That's baby-boomers nostalgic for their late '60s-'70s youth. liberals but the last generation to go to church out of social obligation. The kids either aren't religious (a lot of them*) or want something more traditional. An 80-some-year-old Pope has 20-30-year-old fans.

Nothing wrong with going to the Tridentine Mass mostly or exclusively. Because although the Novus Ordo including the new English translation of it isn't heretical, the Tridentine's better. Sort of like how a Russian churchgoer might feel about an OCA parish that uses the new calendar and only uses English.

*Catholicism's white ethnic base in America is going away, aging and dying like the liberal Protestants, but Mexican immigration keeps Catholic numbers artificially nearly steady.

 

[mabsoota]

Five years ago. Tempus fugit.

time certainly flew since i last saw you and lubeltri!
it's great to see you both posting.

i think the difficult thing with the catholic church is that they did good stuff (letting people understand what they say about God) and bad stuff (thinking it's cool to be 'modern' and dump some traditions) at the same time.
so not singing in latin got linked in people's minds with giving up the Christian message and just being 'nice' people, helping the neighbours, not bothering to get around to marrying your boyfriend and generally decreasing the fasting, praying and getting to know God well.

changing the custom to use a language people actually understand is not 'useful modernising', it is vital 'returning to our ancient traditions'. Jesus spoke to His disciples in their language, the disciples preached around the world in the modern international language of the day and the churches translated the liturgy into the local languages as soon as they could from the internationally used greek.
i have met several catholic Christians who are sticking to the good traditions and show their light to those around them, and i pray to see more of this and less of making the Christian life 'easy' so people can follow it with no effort (and therefore no reward).

 

[88Devin12]

*Catholicism's white ethnic base in America is going away, aging and dying like the liberal Protestants, but Mexican immigration keeps Catholic numbers artificially nearly steady.

FTFY

*Orthodoxy's ethnic base in America is going away, leaving, aging and dying with their children never returning, but new converts and immigrants keep Orthodox numbers artificially nearly steady.

 

[PJ]

The problem with the Tridentine Mass today is that it has caused a division in the Roman Catholic Church.  People exclusively attend one Litrugy over another in the same Ritual Church.

Two things: first (as I've said before on this forum) there is a difference between a church and a rite, and in particular between the Latin Church and the Roman Rite.

Secondly, but relatedly, it seems to me that a deeper problem is near-total suppression in the Latin Church of all rites except the Roman Rite.

 

[Cyrillic]

Secondly, but relatedly, it seems to me that a deeper problem is near-total suppression in the Latin Church of all rites except the Roman Rite.

There should be an Ambrosian-rite movement. Get it to a parish near you! How awesome would that be?

 

[Jason.Wike]

Secondly, but relatedly, it seems to me that a deeper problem is near-total suppression in the Latin Church of all rites except the Roman Rite.

There should be an Ambrosian-rite movement. Get is to a parish near you! How awesome would that be?

Would they ever even allow that? It seems like it is restricted to certain dioceses.

 

[PJ]

Secondly, but relatedly, it seems to me that a deeper problem is near-total suppression in the Latin Church of all rites except the Roman Rite.

There should be an Ambrosian-rite movement. Get is to a parish near you! How awesome would that be?

Would they ever even allow that? It seems like it is restricted to certain dioceses.

More to the point, the non-Roman western rites have been restricted to a small number of dioceses for so long that very few people know about them or want them to be un-restricted.

 

[Antonis]

The problem with the Tridentine Mass today is that it has caused a division in the Roman Catholic Church.  People exclusively attend one Litrugy over another in the same Ritual Church.

I and all of my friends do both. You see that with the younger generation.

The Catholic youth I know attend both "mass" and Protestant churches.

I once asked a girl what faith she was and she responded "Catholic Christian." I asked, "you know that Catholics are Christians, right?" And she said "Yea, but, I'm Christian too, I go to Christian Churches too!" And I weekly see conversations of her and her friends deciding whether they want to go to the "Cowboy church" or "mass." Ack! Sometimes I am tempted to ask them if they can name the saints on their bracelets or say a "hail mary" on the rosary around their necks.

But I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see the same with some Orthodox youth.

 

[Justin Kolodziej]

Secondly, but relatedly, it seems to me that a deeper problem is near-total suppression in the Latin Church of all rites except the Roman Rite.

Essentially that happened over hundreds of years as Rome got more and more control, basically ending at Trent when every rite that couldn't be proved to have been in continuous use for something like 200 years was abolished. That didn't leave much else standing besides the Roman Rite.

 

[Justin Kolodziej]

Nothing wrong with going to the Tridentine Mass mostly or exclusively. Because although the Novus Ordo including the new English translation of it isn't heretical, the Tridentine's better. Sort of like how a Russian churchgoer might feel about an OCA parish that uses the new calendar and only uses English.

So, would that make those sedevacantist groups that say the Mass of Paul VI is in fact heretical, the Popes who accept it are heretics and not Popes at all, and the See of Rome has been vacant since 1960 like the Old Believers? 

 

[mike]

the See of Rome has been vacant since 1960

1012.

 

[Justin Kolodziej]

The problem with the Tridentine Mass today is that it has caused a division in the Roman Catholic Church.  People exclusively attend one Litrugy over another in the same Ritual Church.

The "official position" is one rite in two forms, ordinary (Mass almost everywhere) and extraordinary ("Tridentine Mass" last revised in 1962).

Regardless, there is definitely divison, open dissent (Society of St. Paul X) and even schism over it and the rest of the results of Vatican II.

the See of Rome has been vacant since 1960

1012.

poor form.

 

[Apotheoun]

From the National Catholic Register (28 December 2012):

Tidings of Discomfort and Liturgical Abuse

 

[biro]

the See of Rome has been vacant since 1960

1012.

Awesome, I'm 42 years worse of a heretic pig than I thought I was.

 

[SDMPNS]

That prancing Deacon is so funny !

 

[PJ]

the See of Rome has been vacant since 1960

1012.

Awesome, I'm 42 years worse of a heretic pig than I thought I was.

After the Council of Florence, people on both sides back-dated the schism to 1014 or 1054 (or 1012 apparently). The Orthodox are just more stubborn about it. (How many things can you say that about?)

 

[lubeltri]

That prancing Deacon is so funny !

Yes, that and the Call to Action "puppet mass" are two classic videos to watch while somewhat inebriated. Oh, and the Schönborn Balloon Mass and the Austrian Dixie Confederate BBQ Mass. My friends and I get together once in a while to drink and laugh our butts off at one of these ridiculous videos.

One of our favorites at the other end of the spectrum is this clip of antipope Gregory XVII. We can't get enough of this one:

http://youtu.be/pGUQqNgffUM