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Good thread. I can't remember the last time I witnessed so many people on this forum defending the (W)estern Church.
St. Pete's has never celebrated ad orientum in the current building.Cyrillic said:Sad that the Easter Vigil Mass is not even ad orientem.
One thing I loved about many of the Orthodox I meet online is that they are not ashamed of the truth, even if it seesm to be siding with a position that is against or opposite their normal position. Most Catholics I come across online (*cough* *CAF*) would staunchly defend the perceived position of the Catholic Church regardless of what was true or even sane.Peter J said:Good thread. I can't remember the last time I witnessed so many people on this forum defending the (W)estern Church.
Actually, because the altar is in the Western end of the Church, the pope does celebrate ad orientem. In fact, as Fr. Louis Bouyer pointed out in one of his books, it was the people, and not the pope, who had to turn around in order to face East during liturgies in St. Peter's (both old and new).Keble said:St. Pete's has never celebrated ad orientum in the current building.Cyrillic said:Sad that the Easter Vigil Mass is not even ad orientem.
FWIW I do love the Western Church when it's at its best - it just hasn't been at its best lately (like in the past 40-50 years). ;DPeter J said:Good thread. I can't remember the last time I witnessed so many people on this forum defending the (W)estern Church.
Really have to wonder why not.The young fogey said:I also understand there's a rule allowing the readings (lesson/epistle and gospel) at the altar to be in the vernacular, but I understand trads in Europe do that but not in America.
LARPingPeter J said:Really have to wonder why not.The young fogey said:I also understand there's a rule allowing the readings (lesson/epistle and gospel) at the altar to be in the vernacular, but I understand trads in Europe do that but not in America.
Because Latin is awesome.Peter J said:Really have to wonder why not.The young fogey said:I also understand there's a rule allowing the readings (lesson/epistle and gospel) at the altar to be in the vernacular, but I understand trads in Europe do that but not in America.
Good analogy. You'd think that the difference between Catholic and Episcopal doctrine would have made the Catholics have a conservative high-church option like Rite I after Vatican II and the Episcopalians (most of whom identify as Protestant) not but that's not what happened. As Thomas Day describes in his books, English-speaking Catholics are less attached to elaborate ceremonies than other Catholics, for historical reasons nothing to do with the theology; partly because of that, the liberals in the Catholic Church were ruthless suppressing the old ways once they came into power. And why in those countries there wasn't a big traditionalist pushback. Definitely a theological civil war. The Episcopalians despite their liberalism don't have that aversion to high ceremonial. (A reason liberal Catholics don't all just convert to that.)Apotheoun said:I am sure some people will not like what I am about to say, but the whole division of the liturgical services of the Roman Church into the "Ordinary Form" and the "Extraordinary Form" reminds me of the 1970s Episcopal Church in the USA with its "Rite 1" and "Rite 2."
And just as "Rite 2" (i.e., the contemporary rite) in the Episcopal Church involved updating and banalizing the liturgy, so too the "Ordinary Form" of the Roman Rite involves the same type of liturgical impoverishment. I have been to "Ordinary Form" Masses in Northern and Southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Ohio, West Virginia, and Pennsylvania, and have found most to be just as bad as the LA Religious Congress liturgies.
A point of interest: a couple years ago the PNCC changed "and with your spirit" to "and also with you".The young fogey said:By the way, I think the little Polish National Catholic Church in America, an 1890s immigrant split from Catholicism (parallelling the Toth departures to Orthodoxy), did keep a traditional service, their Tridentine Mass in Polish, as an option alongside their Contemporary Mass in English, which most of them now use, which, like Rite II, largely copies the Novus Ordo.
It is because the Tridentine Mass is the Mass celebrated by Jesus himself during the Last Supper in Latin, transcribed by St. John, infallibly declared by St. Peter to be the one true Mass and commanded the other Apostles who were under him to use this Mass throughout time unchanged.88Devin12 said:I don't understand why they, through the Novus Ordo, allow Masses to be celebrated in the vernacular, but then they don't allow the Tridentine Mass to be celebrated in the vernacular.
Because the TM was supposed to be a standardisation to prevent liturgical abuses that were present before the Reformation.88Devin12 said:I don't understand why they, through the Novus Ordo, allow Masses to be celebrated in the vernacular, but then they don't allow the Tridentine Mass to be celebrated in the vernacular.
I disagree. Iconoclasm had serious christological implications. It lead to denying of the Incarnation, Docetism. I don't see such theological implications is the current situation of the Roman Catholic Church.lubeltri said:It boils down to this analogy: The current crisis is the West's version of Iconoclasm. And like the Eastern Church recovered in the 9th century, so will the West. In fact, it's already happening, though Rome was not (re)built in a day!
I hope you're right, but I find it sad that Archbishop Gomez continues to participate (as the main celebrant) in these weird Religious Education Congress liturgies.lubeltri said:It boils down to this analogy: The current crisis is the West's version of Iconoclasm. And like the Eastern Church recovered in the 9th century, so will the West. In fact, it's already happening, though Rome was not (re)built in a day!
Even in L.A. it's slowly happening with the new Opus Dei Archbishop Gomez. The Mahony era is over.
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Five years ago. Tempus fugit.The young fogey said:Pope Benedict lifted all the restrictions on the Tridentine Mass more than three years ago.
Indeed it does.The young fogey said:Five years ago. Tempus fugit.The young fogey said:Pope Benedict lifted all the restrictions on the Tridentine Mass more than three years ago.
I certainly do. The liturgical crisis has had profound theological effects. Read this for more:Michał Kalina said:I disagree. Iconoclasm had serious christological implications. It lead to denying of the Incarnation, Docetism. I don't see such theological implications is the current situation of the Roman Catholic Church.lubeltri said:It boils down to this analogy: The current crisis is the West's version of Iconoclasm. And like the Eastern Church recovered in the 9th century, so will the West. In fact, it's already happening, though Rome was not (re)built in a day!
I and all of my friends do both. You see that with the younger generation.choy said:The problem with the Tridentine Mass today is that it has caused a division in the Roman Catholic Church. People exclusively attend one Litrugy over another in the same Ritual Church.
But the traditional church isn't monolithic. Different countries have different customs, and of course there are different rites in one communion. For example the West has the Ambrosian (Milanese) Rite or Use depending on how you count it (is something that shares the Roman Canon with the Roman Rite really a separate rite?) and of course there are the Eastern rites starting with partial conversions or (mostly failed) attempts to bring back the Orthodox and other Eastern churches, like the small Western Rite experiments in Orthodoxy that some Orthodox don't like for similar reasons.choy said:The problem with the Tridentine Mass today is that it has caused a division in the Roman Catholic Church. People exclusively attend one Liturgy over another in the same Ritual Church.
time certainly flew since i last saw you and lubeltri!The young fogey said:Five years ago. Tempus fugit.
FTFYThe young fogey said:*Catholicism's white ethnic base in America is going away, aging and dying like the liberal Protestants, but Mexican immigration keeps Catholic numbers artificially nearly steady.
Two things: first (as I've said before on this forum) there is a difference between a church and a rite, and in particular between the Latin Church and the Roman Rite.choy said:The problem with the Tridentine Mass today is that it has caused a division in the Roman Catholic Church. People exclusively attend one Litrugy over another in the same Ritual Church.
There should be an Ambrosian-rite movement. Get it to a parish near you! How awesome would that be?Peter J said:Secondly, but relatedly, it seems to me that a deeper problem is near-total suppression in the Latin Church of all rites except the Roman Rite.
Would they ever even allow that? It seems like it is restricted to certain dioceses.Cyrillic said:There should be an Ambrosian-rite movement. Get is to a parish near you! How awesome would that be?Peter J said:Secondly, but relatedly, it seems to me that a deeper problem is near-total suppression in the Latin Church of all rites except the Roman Rite.
More to the point, the non-Roman western rites have been restricted to a small number of dioceses for so long that very few people know about them or want them to be un-restricted.Jason.Wike said:Would they ever even allow that? It seems like it is restricted to certain dioceses.Cyrillic said:There should be an Ambrosian-rite movement. Get is to a parish near you! How awesome would that be?Peter J said:Secondly, but relatedly, it seems to me that a deeper problem is near-total suppression in the Latin Church of all rites except the Roman Rite.
The Catholic youth I know attend both "mass" and Protestant churches.lubeltri said:I and all of my friends do both. You see that with the younger generation.choy said:The problem with the Tridentine Mass today is that it has caused a division in the Roman Catholic Church. People exclusively attend one Litrugy over another in the same Ritual Church.
Essentially that happened over hundreds of years as Rome got more and more control, basically ending at Trent when every rite that couldn't be proved to have been in continuous use for something like 200 years was abolished. That didn't leave much else standing besides the Roman Rite.Peter J said:Secondly, but relatedly, it seems to me that a deeper problem is near-total suppression in the Latin Church of all rites except the Roman Rite.
So, would that make those sedevacantist groups that say the Mass of Paul VI is in fact heretical, the Popes who accept it are heretics and not Popes at all, and the See of Rome has been vacant since 1960 like the Old Believers?The young fogey said:Nothing wrong with going to the Tridentine Mass mostly or exclusively. Because although the Novus Ordo including the new English translation of it isn't heretical, the Tridentine's better. Sort of like how a Russian churchgoer might feel about an OCA parish that uses the new calendar and only uses English.
1012.Justin Kolodziej said:the See of Rome has been vacant since 1960
The "official position" is one rite in two forms, ordinary (Mass almost everywhere) and extraordinary ("Tridentine Mass" last revised in 1962).choy said:The problem with the Tridentine Mass today is that it has caused a division in the Roman Catholic Church. People exclusively attend one Litrugy over another in the same Ritual Church.
poor form.Michał Kalina said:1012.Justin Kolodziej said:the See of Rome has been vacant since 1960
Awesome, I'm 42 years worse of a heretic pig than I thought I was.Michał Kalina said:1012.Justin Kolodziej said:the See of Rome has been vacant since 1960
After the Council of Florence, people on both sides back-dated the schism to 1014 or 1054 (or 1012 apparently). The Orthodox are just more stubborn about it. (How many things can you say that about?)biro said:Awesome, I'm 42 years worse of a heretic pig than I thought I was.Michał Kalina said:1012.Justin Kolodziej said:the See of Rome has been vacant since 1960
Yes, that and the Call to Action "puppet mass" are two classic videos to watch while somewhat inebriated. Oh, and the Schönborn Balloon Mass and the Austrian Dixie Confederate BBQ Mass. My friends and I get together once in a while to drink and laugh our butts off at one of these ridiculous videos.SDMPNS said:That prancing Deacon is so funny !