Short video comparing Orthodox and (Roman) Catholic liturgy

[Nephi]

One of our favorites at the other end of the spectrum is this clip of antipope Gregory XVII. We can't get enough of this one:

http://youtu.be/pGUQqNgffUM

Wow. I can't believe how many minutes that went on for.

 

[LBK]

About the Palmarians (bolded section my emphasis):

[size=10pt][size=10pt]Since 1983 the Palmarian Church has drastically reformed its rites and its liturgy, which previously had been styled in the Tridentine form. The Palmarian liturgy was reduced to almost solely the Eucharistic words of consecration. The See of El Palmar de Troya has also declared the Real Presence of the Virgin Mary in the sacred host and the bodily assumption into heaven of St. Joseph to be dogmas of the Catholic faith. By 2000, they had their own version of the Bible, revised by Domínguez on claimed prophetic authority. For these and other reasons, other traditionalist Catholics consider the Palmarian Church to be heretics.
[/size][/size]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmarian_Catholic_Church

Oyyyyy ...... : : :

 

[88Devin12]

the See of Rome has been vacant since 1960

1012.

Awesome, I'm 42 years worse of a heretic pig than I thought I was.

After the Council of Florence, people on both sides back-dated the schism to 1014 or 1054 (or 1012 apparently). The Orthodox are just more stubborn about it. (How many things can you say that about?)

I'd say that 1054-1204 is a gray area. You have Benedicine Monks on Mt Athos, intercommunion occurring and other such things going on. It got worse over those 150 years, culminating in the 4th Crusade which ensured the split was final and lasting. After that point there wasn't gray area nor any doubt.

 

[mike]

the See of Rome has been vacant since 1960

1012.

Awesome, I'm 42 years worse of a heretic pig than I thought I was.

After the Council of Florence, people on both sides back-dated the schism to 1014 or 1054 (or 1012 apparently). The Orthodox are just more stubborn about it. (How many things can you say that about?)

I'd say that 1054-1204 is a gray area. You have Benedicine Monks on Mt Athos,

under Constantinople...

 

[Cyrillic]

One of our favorites at the other end of the spectrum is this clip of antipope Gregory XVII. We can't get enough of this one:

http://youtu.be/pGUQqNgffUM

That's uhm... interesting to say the least!

 

[PJ]

the See of Rome has been vacant since 1960

1012.

Awesome, I'm 42 years worse of a heretic pig than I thought I was.

After the Council of Florence, people on both sides back-dated the schism to 1014 or 1054 (or 1012 apparently). The Orthodox are just more stubborn about it. (How many things can you say that about?)

I'd say that 1054-1204 is a gray area. You have Benedicine Monks on Mt Athos, intercommunion occurring and other such things going on. It got worse over those 150 years, culminating in the 4th Crusade which ensured the split was final and lasting. After that point there wasn't gray area nor any doubt.

I just don't see how 1204 can be considered the end of the "gray area". It makes a lot more sense to point to either the Second Council of Lyons or the Council of Florence. (Personally, I'm inclined toward the latter.)

Some might argue that the outcome of Lyons II was inevitable, more of less, because of 1204; and perhaps they'd be right, but Lyons II didn't happen until it happened, if you know what I mean.

 

[Serge]

Nothing wrong with going to the Tridentine Mass mostly or exclusively. Because although the Novus Ordo including the new English translation of it isn't heretical, the Tridentine's better. Sort of like how a Russian churchgoer might feel about an OCA parish that uses the new calendar and only uses English.

So, would that make those sedevacantist groups that say the Mass of Paul VI is in fact heretical, the Popes who accept it are heretics and not Popes at all, and the See of Rome has been vacant since 1960 like the Old Believers? 

Yes!

 

[Keble]

From the National Catholic Register (28 December 2012):

Tidings of Discomfort and Liturgical Abuse

Not to put too fine a point on his "because I'm not Protestant," but most of these bad practices started out in American RC churches.

 

[biro]

the See of Rome has been vacant since 1960

1012.

Awesome, I'm 42 years worse of a heretic pig than I thought I was.

After the Council of Florence, people on both sides back-dated the schism to 1014 or 1054 (or 1012 apparently). The Orthodox are just more stubborn about it. (How many things can you say that about?)

A lot. I didn't fall off the turnip truck just yesterday. I've been going to their church almost three years.

 

[biro]

I also understand there's a rule allowing the readings (lesson/epistle and gospel) at the altar to be in the vernacular, but I understand trads in Europe do that but not in America.

Really have to wonder why not.

LARPing

:

 

[lubeltri]

Eastern brethren, if you happen to be in New York City, stop by the Church of Our Saviour on Park Ave a block south of Grand Central. Week after week, year after year, the great Fr. George Rutler shows how the modern Roman rite should be celebrated. He also does the traditional rite every Sunday.

I was just there this morning, and what a delight it is to see what Paul VI was hoping to create when he unfortunately gave Bugnini the task to craft the new rite.

What you'll get at Fr. Rutler's parish is the Novus Ordo filtered through the ancient Mass, celebrated with felicity and solemnity. No "Responsorial Psalm" but the chanted Gradual instead. No kiss-of-peace glad-handing in the pews, but straight onto the Agnus Dei. No "brothers and sisters" (or "sisters and brothers"!) but "brethren". No conversational recitation of prayers but solemn intoning. No "gathering song" and jokey small talk from the altar at the start of Mass but the chanted Introit and the Asperges procession. No sanctuary hootenanny of "Eucharistic ministers" at Communion but just Father, flanked by two acolytes with patens. No soggy Wonderbread homilies but a rich oratory feast of wisdom, erudition, and joyful encouragement.

One wonderful thing he does is take the "Prayers of the Faithful" (created for the new rite by Bugnini and his collaborators) and strip from it all the nonsense that turns it into a sad distraction (I think the low point came during Sen. Ted Kennedy's funeral Mass, when his grandchildren went up and were made to read quotations from St. Teddy Kennedy that had been turned into "prayers"!). Fr. Rutler has turned it into something similar to the Great Litany sung at the beginning of the Byzantine Divine Liturgy (even using the "Let us pray to the Looooooooooord"..."Lord have mercy").

Might I add that it is one of the most beautiful post-1950s churches I've ever seen? A very talented Chinese parishioner has filled it with some marvelous neo-Byzantine iconography.

And for those of you who are former Anglicans, Fr. Rutler has recently installed a new shrine to Blessed John Henry Newman.

It is a joy and an encouragement that more Our Saviour-type parishes are popping up across the Catholic world. The silly season is on its way out, and the vineyard is being re-sown.

 

[J Michael]

Eastern brethren, if you happen to be in New York City, stop by the Church of Our Saviour on Park Ave a block south of Grand Central. Week after week, year after year, the great Fr. George Rutler shows how the modern Roman rite should be celebrated. He also does the traditional rite every Sunday.

I was just there this morning, and what a delight it is to see what Paul VI was hoping to create when he unfortunately gave Bugnini the task to craft the new rite.

What you'll get at Fr. Rutler's parish is the Novus Ordo filtered through the ancient Mass, celebrated with felicity and solemnity. No "Responsorial Psalm" but the chanted Gradual instead. No kiss-of-peace glad-handing in the pews, but straight onto the Agnus Dei. No "brothers and sisters" (or "sisters and brothers"!) but "brethren". No conversational recitation of prayers but solemn intoning. No "gathering song" and jokey small talk from the altar at the start of Mass but the chanted Introit and the Asperges procession. No sanctuary hootenanny of "Eucharistic ministers" at Communion but just Father, flanked by two acolytes with patens. No soggy Wonderbread homilies but a rich oratory feast of wisdom, erudition, and joyful encouragement.

One wonderful thing he does is take the "Prayers of the Faithful" (created for the new rite by Bugnini and his collaborators) and strip from it all the nonsense that turns it into a sad distraction (I think the low point came during Sen. Ted Kennedy's funeral Mass, when his grandchildren went up and were made to read quotations from St. Teddy Kennedy that had been turned into "prayers"!). Fr. Rutler has turned it into something similar to the Great Litany sung at the beginning of the Byzantine Divine Liturgy (even using the "Let us pray to the Looooooooooord"..."Lord have mercy").

Might I add that it is one of the most beautiful post-1950s churches I've ever seen? A very talented Chinese parishioner has filled it with some marvelous neo-Byzantine iconography.

And for those of you who are former Anglicans, Fr. Rutler has recently installed a new shrine to Blessed John Henry Newman.

It is a joy and an encouragement that more Our Saviour-type parishes are popping up across the Catholic world. The silly season is on its way out, and the vineyard is being re-sown.

Now I want to move to New York!  (Or at least much, much closer to a ByzCath parish than we are.)  Sheesh, what you describe makes the N.O. mass celebrated (actually quite reverently) at the RC church we attend look like some kind of Quaker meeting.  May God bestow abundant blessings upon Fr. Rutler and his congregation!!!

 

[Ansgar]

That must be one of the most beautiful catholic churches i have seen. Are there any videos?

 

[lubeltri]

That must be one of the most beautiful catholic churches i have seen. Are there any videos?

It's even more beautiful in person! Great place to stop for prayer between trains at Grand Central or whenever you're in Midtown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwM_aSaQLjg&sns=em

 

[Alpo]

That must be one of the most beautiful catholic churches i have seen. Are there any videos?

It's even more beautiful in person! Great place to stop for prayer between trains at Grand Central or whenever you're in Midtown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwM_aSaQLjg&sns=em

The good father makes a very important point on 2:04 onwards: There shouldn't be strong artificial divide between East and West and that both traditions can learn from each other.

 

[biro]

That must be one of the most beautiful catholic churches i have seen. Are there any videos?

It's even more beautiful in person! Great place to stop for prayer between trains at Grand Central or whenever you're in Midtown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwM_aSaQLjg&sns=em

The good father makes a very important point on 2:04 onwards: There shouldn't be strong artificial divide between East and West and that both traditions can learn from each other.

Yay!

 

[Cavaradossi]

I also understand there's a rule allowing the readings (lesson/epistle and gospel) at the altar to be in the vernacular, but I understand trads in Europe do that but not in America.

Really have to wonder why not.

LARPing

:

What other reason is there for using Latin and not at the very least, repeating the reading in the vernacular tongue?

 

[Clemente]

Ok, I am Russian Orthodox and would like to know what exactly is wrong with the RC mass in the video? I do not mean that there is nothing wrong, but I suspect that there are different opinions about what is wrong.

The dancing deacon should stop, yes. But what else?

Is contemporary music wrong?  I rather like Metr. Hilarion's contemporary Christmas Oratorio and would be delighted to hear part of that at church. Russian chant is not part of the Apostolic Deposit of the Faith. Is Russian chant OK but gospel wrong?

I actually found the apparent joy at the RC service rather attractive. Oh we Orthodox have a lot of joy--our Russian DL is sublime, yet also joyful. But I have found most RC services that I attend (my wife is RC) to be rather dry and uninspiring. I think I would have felt uplifted at that RC mass (if I could turn a blind eye to the liturgical abuses).

My biggest problem with the RC mass is what you do not see: lack of fasting before taking the Eucharist, little vigilance about frequent confession before communing, etc.

 

[theistgal]

I think I would have felt uplifted at that RC mass (if I could turn a blind eye to the liturgical abuses).

That's the main problem for me - you can never be sure what liturgical abuses there will be at any given Mass, so it's kind of hard to let yourself relax and feel uplifted.

If you're able to turn a blind eye to the abuses and benefit spiritually, then more power to you. 

 

[J Michael]

My biggest problem with the RC mass is what you do not see: lack of fasting before taking the Eucharist, little vigilance about frequent confession before communing, etc.

Now, just how *would* you see these things??  You have no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics.  You have no idea of the vigilance practiced by a billion Catholics.  How do you know how often each of a billion Catholics goes to confession?  Are you a seer?  Can you read the hearts and minds of a billion Catholics?  I doubt it.

 

[biro]

There is a rule in the RCC that one is supposed to fast prior to Communion. Ideally, from the previous evening. If that's not possible, at least eat nothing from when you get up, until after church on Sunday. If people do not obey these guidelines, that is a different problem. But, the rules do exist.

Also, the usual suggestion in the RCC is to go to Confession at least every few weeks. This is a matter to be discussed by the individual and his priest. With all respect, not everyone follows the "one Confession per Communion" practice done by some in the ROC. However, the RCC does teach that you should not take Communion if you haven't been to Confession in a while. To receive Communion, one is supposed to be "in a state of grace with God."

 

[theistgal]

There is a rule in the RCC that one is supposed to fast prior to Communion. Ideally, from the previous evening. If that's not possible, at least eat nothing from when you get up, until after church on Sunday. If people do not obey these guidelines, that is a different problem. But, the rules do exist.

Actually, I have always been told that you may receive if you have fasted even only one hour before receiving the Eucharist - doesn't even have to be an hour before the beginning of Mass, just an hour before Communion.

 

[biro]

There is a rule in the RCC that one is supposed to fast prior to Communion. Ideally, from the previous evening. If that's not possible, at least eat nothing from when you get up, until after church on Sunday. If people do not obey these guidelines, that is a different problem. But, the rules do exist.

Actually, I have always been told that you may receive if you have fasted even only one hour before receiving the Eucharist - doesn't even have to be an hour before the beginning of Mass, just an hour before Communion.

Okay then.

 

[theistgal]

There is a rule in the RCC that one is supposed to fast prior to Communion. Ideally, from the previous evening. If that's not possible, at least eat nothing from when you get up, until after church on Sunday. If people do not obey these guidelines, that is a different problem. But, the rules do exist.

Actually, I have always been told that you may receive if you have fasted even only one hour before receiving the Eucharist - doesn't even have to be an hour before the beginning of Mass, just an hour before Communion.

Okay then.

I could be wrong. It's been known to happen, occasionally.  ;D

 

[Wyatt]

Now, just how *would* you see these things??  You have no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics.  You have no idea of the vigilance practiced by a billion Catholics.  How do you know how often each of a billion Catholics goes to confession?  Are you a seer?  Can you read the hearts and minds of a billion Catholics?  I doubt it.

QFT

 

[PJ]

You have no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics.  

I guess you know Clemente a lot better than I do.

 

[PJ]

Are there any videos?

Good question -- not only in the way that you mean it, but also regarding

One wonderful thing he does is take the "Prayers of the Faithful" (created for the new rite by Bugnini and his collaborators) and strip from it all the nonsense that turns it into a sad distraction (I think the low point came during Sen. Ted Kennedy's funeral Mass, when his grandchildren went up and were made to read quotations from St. Teddy Kennedy that had been turned into "prayers"!).

 

[lubeltri]

There is a rule in the RCC that one is supposed to fast prior to Communion. Ideally, from the previous evening. If that's not possible, at least eat nothing from when you get up, until after church on Sunday. If people do not obey these guidelines, that is a different problem. But, the rules do exist.

Actually, I have always been told that you may receive if you have fasted even only one hour before receiving the Eucharist - doesn't even have to be an hour before the beginning of Mass, just an hour before Communion.

Okay then.

I could be wrong. It's been known to happen, occasionally.  ;D

No, you're not wrong. The requirement was loosened up in a misguided effort to get rid of "legalism". As usual, this relaxation was accompanied by exortations to continue the traditional practice (sigh). Of course serious Catholics know to do more than the "bare minimum required".

 

[augustin717]

"OrthodoxEngland" is one truly disturbed and disturbing website. On a number of levels. If you dig a bit you'd probably find the Protocols there too. I can't fathom why they would care how the Catholics see it fit to conduct their rites. Most liturgies are pretty boring affairs but you don't normally see Catholics commenting on that.

 

[J Michael]

You have no knowledge of the fasting (or lack thereof) practices of a billion Catholics.  

I guess you know Clemente a lot better than I do.

I really don't know him very well at all.  What I do know is that a) he's a human being, b) he's not God, c) he's not omniscient, and d) I'm 99.9% certain he's not a seer and cannot read the hearts and minds of a billion people, or know how they do or do not practice their Catholic faith.  If you know someone like that I'd really like to meet him or her  !

 

[Romaios]

There is an allergy to all things that suggest Phariseeism, i.e. all unneccesary exclusive majesty. In the worst case it leads to polka Masses, clown Masses, liturgical dancers, etc.

Did it occur to anyone else that the deacon dancing with the Gospel was actually emulating the Jewish "simchat Torah" celebrations? So he was actually 'returning' to some Jewish roots...

 

[Romaios]

I can't fathom why they would care how the Catholics see it fit to conduct their rites.

It could be interpreted as a missionary strategy. If you want converts, you must give them reasons to convert. And such a video speaks volumes (of otherwise arid Orthodox apologetics, about palamism vs. thomism, sobornost vs. papacy, etc). Liturgical aesthetics have always been the most successful missionary (and political) strategy of Byzantium - remember the story of prince Vladimir's envoys to Constantinople?  Τέτοια πράγματα θαμπώνουν τοὺς βαρβάρους as Kavafis put it...
 

 

[PJ]

That must be one of the most beautiful catholic churches i have seen. Are there any videos?

It's even more beautiful in person! Great place to stop for prayer between trains at Grand Central or whenever you're in Midtown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwM_aSaQLjg&sns=em

The good father makes a very important point on 2:04 onwards: There shouldn't be strong artificial divide between East and West and that both traditions can learn from each other.

True, but the difficult question is, What constitutes an artificial divide? In other words, I completely agree in principle, but in practice that kind of thinking has sometimes resulted in "latinization" of Eastern Catholics.

 

[J Michael]

There is an allergy to all things that suggest Phariseeism, i.e. all unneccesary exclusive majesty. In the worst case it leads to polka Masses, clown Masses, liturgical dancers, etc.

Did it occur to anyone else that the deacon dancing with the Gospel was actually emulating the Jewish "simchat Torah" celebrations? So he was actually 'returning' to some Jewish roots...

I didn't watch the video--can't on this computer--, but that's an interesting thought.  Reminds me of this:

Ps.149
[1] Praise the LORD!
Sing to the LORD a new song,
his praise in the assembly of the faithful!
[2] Let Israel be glad in his Maker,
let the sons of Zion rejoice in their King!
[3] [size=10pt]Let them praise his name with dancing[/size],
making melody to him with timbrel and lyre!
[4] For the LORD takes pleasure in his people;
he adorns the humble with victory
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=2154323

 

[Romaios]

Eastern brethren, if you happen to be in New York City, stop by the Church of Our Saviour on Park Ave a block south of Grand Central.

(...)

Might I add that it is one of the most beautiful post-1950s churches I've ever seen? A very talented Chinese parishioner has filled it with some marvelous neo-Byzantine iconography.

See, Catholics are catching up and finally reacting to Orthodox/traditionalist missionary strategies. Just emulating or letting oneself be inspired by Byzantine iconography won't do anymore - a Chinese faithful reproduction is needed!

The Anglicans (Anglo-catholics, that is) built beautiful neo-gothic cathedrals and churches in Ireland, hoping to attract Irish Catholics by bedazzling them with the glories of medieval Christendom. For some reason, it didn't work.   

 

[choy]

True, but the difficult question is, What constitutes an artificial divide? In other words, I completely agree in principle, but in practice that kind of thinking has sometimes resulted in "latinization" of Eastern Catholics.

I personally think that Latinization is not a bad thing, but should be done in the right context.  What is absorbed must be in harmony with the Eastern traditions and must be done from within, not from external pressure.  What is bad with Latinizations so far is that it is either externally influenced, or people pick up Latin traditions for the sake of it without regard for Eastern tradition and belief.

 

[Romaios]

Most liturgies are pretty boring affairs but you don't normally see Catholics commenting on that.

It takes a disenchanted, post-lapsarian, post-Christian view of the world to accede to that awful 'truth'. Now that's neither remarkable, nor rarely achieved these days.

Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also...  

 

[Serge]

I can't fathom why they would care how the Catholics see it fit to conduct their rites. Most liturgies are pretty boring affairs but you don't normally see Catholics commenting on that.

It's a backhanded acknowledgement the two churches are so similar. Catholicism's the West's No. 1 church so they're afraid of it. They're probably much less defensive on Orthodoxy's turf: Greece, Russia etc.

Right, a one-hour fast before receiving Communion; water's allowed. A rule the Catholic Church can and does change.

In Catholicism, if you think you've committed what is objectively a mortal sin, you have to go to confession and be absolved before receiving Communion. No mortal sin, no confession unless you want to.

I knew the deacon at the modern Mass was imitating the Torah dance but it's still contrived and silly.

The Anglicans (Anglo-catholics, that is) built beautiful neo-gothic cathedrals and churches in Ireland, hoping to attract Irish Catholics by bedazzling them with the glories of medieval Christendom. For some reason, it didn't work.

No.

Irish religious history from the 'Reformation' on is full of surprises. Some say Irish piety is cyclical; one generation's lapsed, the next pious. It's on the downswing now. Anyway, the Irish at first pretty much went along with the king's breaking with Rome mostly because the conservative clergy did a good job of hiding it so religion in the parishes was pretty much the same. The first people in Ireland to rebel against the king's break with Rome were the ethnic English living around Dublin. So arguably you can credit them for the identity 'Irish Catholic'. (So much for Irish Catholics hating the English, which isn't universally true.) The then-state church didn't really become noticeably Protestant until later in the 1500s, when the Irish caught on that it wasn't Catholic anymore and said no. The ethnic English upper class there remained Catholic for a few generations. But eventually the Anglican Church there because the church of the English rulers, definitely Protestant, not Anglo-Catholic. Just like in England it kept all the medieval cathedrals and parish churches but again the religion was Protestant.

Anglo-Catholicism began in England in the 1800s, ironically as partly a reaction to Britain giving Catholics the vote so the government sensibly decided to shut down four Irish Anglican dioceses since the Irish didn't go to those churches; the Anglican churchmen who started Anglo-Catholicism protested that their church has divine authority so the state can't do that. Their movement never took in Ireland; neither the Anglicans there nor the Irish Catholics wanted it. And anyway, the later Anglo-Catholics, in historical irony, ended up imitating the Catholic Church and weren't interested in trying to convert Irish Catholics to their church. So no, they never built neo-Gothic churches there to try to convert the Irish.

Rite controls what you do in church, for good order. Devotion is freestyle. Latinizations are fine as long as they're old, don't take over from the native rite, and aren't imposed on people when the native rite has perfectly good practices.

 

[Romaios]

I knew the deacon at the modern Mass was imitating the Torah dance but it's still contrived and silly.

I find the reproduction of the Pantokrator of Sinai in a NY Roman-Catholic church equally contrived and silly. It might be a personal bias, though - I've seen far too many 'neo-Byzantine' churches filled with reproductions (in much poorer style, I must admit) in Romania. It's rather kitschig...  

Irish religious history from the 'Reformation' on is full of surprises. (...) So no, they never built neo-Gothic churches there to try to convert the Irish.

Well, you may be right. I don't know much about Irish religious history. Yet, if nobody was interested in Anglo-Catholicism in Ireland, why/for whom were they built? Was it just ars gratia artis?

 

[Serge]

I knew the deacon at the modern Mass was imitating the Torah dance but it's still contrived and silly.

I find the reproduction of the Pantokrator of Sinai in a NY Roman-Catholic church equally contrived and silly. It might be a personal bias, though - I've seen far too many 'neo-Byzantine' churches filled with reproductions (in much poorer style, I must admit) in Romania. It's rather kitschig...  

Irish religious history from the 'Reformation' on is full of surprises. (...) So no, they never built neo-Gothic churches there to try to convert the Irish.

Well, you may be right. I don't know much about Irish religious history. Yet, if nobody was interest in Anglo-Catholicism in Ireland, why/for whom were they built? Was it just ars gratia artis?

Some well-meaning Western artists use the style of iconography without learning its rules. I like what Fr Rutler had done.

There are one or two semi-Anglo-Catholic parish churches (now liberal like the Episcopalians) the ethnic English built for themselves in big cities such as Belfast and Dublin.