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Should the Western Rite of Antioch and Russia have a common liturgy?

collin_nunis

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I've merged these two topics together. - Cleveland, Global Moderator

I've had this playing in my mind for quite sometime... Seeing that both Antioch and ROCOR have a Western Rite provision, I think that both Antioch and ROCOR should have a common liturgy. While being under the pastoral care of their respective jurisdictions, I feel that its about time that the Western Rite becomes one, just like the churches utilizing the Byzantine Rite are one (using the same liturgy). It could be a start for common ground. What does everyone think?
 

Ian Lazarus

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Honestly, I dont thing there is harm in exploring the subject.  But at the same time, I also think that the liturgies should stay as they are, because both are beautiful.  Besides, even in the Easter Rite, we have our diferences.  The Greeks use modern English, while the Antiochians and the Russian stick to King James English.  Variation isn't a bad thing in that, as long as the Liturgy stays the same.     
 

collin_nunis

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I've had this playing in my mind for quite sometime... Seeing that both Antioch and ROCOR have a Western Rite provision, I think that both Antioch and ROCOR should have a common liturgy. While being under the pastoral care of their respective jurisdictions, I feel that its about time that the Western Rite becomes one, just like the churches utilizing the Byzantine Rite are one (using the same liturgy). It could be a start for common ground. What does everyone think?

This is because I still feel that the Roman Canon of the Mass should be a standard Eucharistic prayer for the Western Rite. Since the Sarum and Gregorian uses utilise the Roman Rite (or a version of it), I guess the Tikhonian use should also follow suit. Better still, compose and write their own Eucharistic prayers to ensure that it conforms to Orthodox standards.

I have read that the Gallican liturgy dates back to the 5th century (possibly the earliest pre-schism Western liturgy together with the Roman Rite... then again I'm no historian). However, Bishop Kallistos has said that the current Gallican liturgy is merely a reconstruction of the original and its authencity may be questionable.

This is a question that I have and I hope that some people who are educated enough on the Western Rite will be kind enough to enlighten me on this. Thank you.
 

Friul

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I personally disagree, the West has a history of various liturgies.  Personally, I would love to see the WRers research more of the Liturgies and determine if they are suitable for WR use or what needs to be done to append them.  

For example, you have the Mozarabic Rite, Durham Rite, African Rite, Ambrosian Rite, Gregorian Rite, Gaelic/Celtic Rites, etc.  Personally, I would love to see the Ambrosian Rite celebrated, I was able to witness it once in Italy at a RC cathedral and it was absolutely amazing.

Anyways, just my opinion.

Oh, and about the Gallican Liturgy, I know that the Liturgy of Saint Germanus is a reconstuction from various letters and the addition of Byzantine parts.  But St. John Maximovitch did celebrate this restored liturgy back in the 1960s, and a commision did find it to be authentic.  Unfortunately, the Orthodox Church in France has had many issues following the repose of St. John and has splintered multiple times.
 

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I disagree, for the same reasons Friul said: the Western liturgy historically was not uniform.
 

collin_nunis

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Well, if there is want for liturgical diversity, then so be it. After all, I've never seen liturgies outdo each other. ;D However, if there is to be liturgical diversity, the liturgies that should be in place must be pre-Schism liturgies.

Anyways, while there should be liturgical diversity, there should be a common prayer book for the Western Orthodox Christians in both jurisdictions containing the sanctioned number of liturgies possible.
 

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collin_nunis said:
Well, if there is want for liturgical diversity, then so be it. After all, I've never seen liturgies outdo each other. ;D However, if there is to be liturgical diversity, the liturgies that should be in place must be pre-Schism liturgies.
Why?  If the Holy Spirit guides the Church to baptize post-Schism liturgies, who are we to stand in the way?  (Not that we need to be running around inventing new stuff out of thin air in order to "help" Him along, but the other extreme is one where we deliberatly ossify the Church.)

Anyways, while there should be liturgical diversity, there should be a common prayer book for the Western Orthodox Christians in both jurisdictions containing the sanctioned number of liturgies possible.
Again, why?  I'm not aware of any prayer books in common usage in the Eastern rite that has all of our prescribed liturgies.  Most only have the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, but exclude the Liturgies of St. Basil and St. James.  Further, should we reunite with our OO brethren (God willing!), will we then demand that everyone in the Oriental churches have a prayer book that has all of their even more vaired liturgies?

I think I understand the intent of what you're getting at, but it seems like overkill in some respects. 
 

stanley123

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This is a question on the Orthodox Western rite liturgies:
Do the Orthodox Western rite liturgies use unleavened or leavened bread?
 

arimethea

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stanley123 said:
This is a question on the Orthodox Western rite liturgies:
Do the Orthodox Western rite liturgies use unleavened or leavened bread?
There is a whole other topic related to this question
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13141.0.html


Please stay on topic.
 

Rowan

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collin_nunis said:
Anyways, while there should be liturgical diversity, there should be a common prayer book for the Western Orthodox Christians in both jurisdictions containing the sanctioned number of liturgies possible.
The early Christians got by just fine with worshiping in different liturgies when they traveled, *without a common prayer book* and personally, so do I.

If you're concerned about knowing what's going on, I know in the Antiochian Archdiocese, the WR and ER pre-communion prayer "I believe O  Lord, and I confess..." is the same, so that it will be familiar, if not anything else (the most important part, I think).

*edited to add*
 
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The point of the WRV is not to resurrect dead liturgies, but to give a home to those western communities a home in the Orthodox Church...again: http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2007/05/western-rite-is-not-reverse-uniatism.html

But if ROCOR and Antioch are both using the Pope Gregory Mass, it should be the same one IMHO if we are the same Faith.
 

PeterTheAleut

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VirSpeluncaeOrthodoxae said:
The point of the WRV is not to resurrect dead liturgies, but to give a home to those western communities a home in the Orthodox Church...again: http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2007/05/western-rite-is-not-reverse-uniatism.html

But if ROCOR and Antioch are both using the Pope Gregory Mass, it should be the same one IMHO if we are the same Faith.
Does uniformity of liturgy equal unity of faith?
 

Aristocles

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Not to derail the topic, but even Greek/"Byzantine" and Russian/Slavic liturgies differ somewhat although nominally the same. So what?
 

Irish Hermit

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arimethea said:
stanley123 said:
This is a question on the Orthodox Western rite liturgies:
Do the Orthodox Western rite liturgies use unleavened or leavened bread?
There is a whole other topic related to this question
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13141.0.html
I have just added a message to that topic which people are able to visit and peruse.

The insistence of contemporary Orthodox hierarchs that all Western Rite priests must use leavened bread is not forcing them to accept a "Byzantization" for the sake of Eastern Orthodox sensitivities. It is, rather, a return to the authentic first millennium usage of the Western Church. Like their brothers in the East they also used leavened bread.

CATHOLIC SCHOLARS SAY THAT THE CHURCH OF ROME USED LEAVENED BREAD
for the first 800 and more years.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13141.0.html

 
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PeterTheAleut said:
VirSpeluncaeOrthodoxae said:
The point of the WRV is not to resurrect dead liturgies, but to give a home to those western communities a home in the Orthodox Church...again: http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2007/05/western-rite-is-not-reverse-uniatism.html

But if ROCOR and Antioch are both using the Pope Gregory Mass, it should be the same one IMHO if we are the same Faith.
Does uniformity of liturgy equal unity of faith?
I don't know. Why is the St. John Chrysostom DL the same all over the world melodies and ethnics notwithstanding?
 

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Rowan said:
I disagree, for the same reasons Friul said: the Western liturgy historically was not uniform.
Actually, there was a move toward uniformity long before the 1054 in the West. Many liturgies had been and were being supressed by Rome by the time the Great Schism occured. The Roman Rite was quickly becoming *the* rite of the Western Orthodox Church. And it wasn't much different in the East. Following the departure of the Oriental Orthodox, Constantinople sought to bring liturgical uniformity to the Eastern Church, and successfully elevated the Rite of Constantinople into *the* right of the Eastern Orthodox Church.


Derogatory reference replaced with something more acceptable to this forum  -PtA
 
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This is partly true about suppression culiminating, but that does not mean that the reasons for it were good ones and this didnt happen entirely at 1054. The same reasons that suppressed diverse liturgies also led to the suppression of certain orthodox practices. (promotion of filioque, due to humberts belief that it was of nicaean origin). The existence of a mistake in the past history is not a reason to continue a mistake in the present time. I would also add that Pope John Paul II ended suppression of the Mozarabic liturgy and encouraged its usage throughout Iberia during the end of the 1990s. So one can say that even the Latin catholic communion of today has a parallel path of returning to certain Orthodox and ancient western ideas while simultaneously coexisting with modernist abuses and heresies. As one can see examples with: #1 the SSPX ex-communication lifted in 2009, #2 the growth of over 300 NEW parish gregorian chant schola cantorums in the year 2008 within North America, #3 the International Committee for English in the Liturgy changning the Novus Ordo translation to match the tridentine masses original english missal translation (now says 'and with thy spirit' instead of 'and also with you'). Clearly a traditional liturgical idea is bursting forth in the latin heterodox west.

"External ecclesiastical influences, such as two German abbots at Montecassino during the 11th century, led to an increasing insistence on the Roman rite and Gregorian chant instead of the local Beneventan traditions. One of these abbots later became Pope Stephen IX, who in 1058 officially outlawed the Beneventan (South Ambrosian) rite and chant. "
For the Mozarab it was in 1085 that it was outlawed and restricted to certain dioceses.

The outlaw of other western chant and liturgical traditions can almost always be traced to saxons, franks, normans, various northern germanic tribes coming to power as bishops or abbots on foriegn soil and not accepting local tradition thus supporting Fr. John S. Romanides theory that the germans tried to destroy certain aspects of the original roman culture and replace it with their german variations.

this article mentions some of the specific dates.
http://books.google.com/books?id=c3NzTkyUntYC&pg=PA951&lpg=PA951&dq=beneventan+suppression&source=web&ots=EFj-UA48WG&sig=n7Kxv4mWRYnBV0GDxZKJZwa-WJo&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result
 

ialmisry

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Christophoros said:
Rowan said:
I disagree, for the same reasons Friul said: the Western liturgy historically was not uniform.
Actually, there was a move toward uniformity long before the 1054 in the West. Many liturgies had been and were being supressed by Rome by the time the Great Schism occured. The Roman Rite was quickly becoming *the* rite of the Western Orthodox Church. And it wasn't much different in the East. Following the departure of the Oriental Orthodox, Constantinople sought to bring liturgical uniformity to the Eastern Church, and successfully elevated the Rite of Constantinople into *the* right of the Eastern Orthodox Church.


Derogatory reference replaced with something more acceptable to this forum  -PtA
The OO were estranged from Constantinople in 450, Constantinople was OO until 518.  The suppression of the rites of Antioch didn't occur until after 1193 (and not by elevating Constinople but suppressing Antioch), and Alexandria even later. (Jerusalem's rite had been modified since the flood of foreign pilgrims after SS Constantine and Helen).  Of course, this was all after the suppression of the rite of Constantinople in Italy, the original complaint of Constantinople against the Vatican sparking 1054.  I guess we should stop telling the Ultramontanists to remove that speck from their eye...
 

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Grace and Peace,

As someone who has faced the rigors of artificial manipulation of the Liturgical Life I am a strong proponent in 'organic' development.
 

ignatius

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Christopher McAvoy said:
May we explain 'organic' development?
Let is happen naturally if it's going to happen but don't force it if it's not going to happen from the ground up.
 

Alveus Lacuna

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I think that there is a reason that Rome and New Rome both ended up enforcing a uniform liturgy, and I think that there is a solid reason that the variety of liturgical traditions died off.

I think that a uniformity in praxis is related to a uniformity in doxia.  I'm certain many will disagree, but ritual is not separate from belief.  They go together.
 
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There are some certainly contradictory ideas being spoken of here.

Does "enforcing a uniform liturgy" contradict or complement "natural development" ?

To answer what is organic development by using a synonym such as natural is not a true answer.
This is a similar answer that many laid back health food store employees will give when asked that question about their "organic" vegetables. I frequently purchase organic foods. The exact definition of organic agriculture is rarely discussed and in the end "organic" is defined differently by the various state or private organizations which inspect farms. Many corporations which are against organic foods attempt to corrupt the inspection boards and lower their standards to the corporations liking. This is why for myself I pay less attention to the exact definition of organic. Instead I either talk on the telephone to the farmer or visit farms myself purchase products myself. This first hand relationship is I think very valuable. This is also what the farmer market idea is for and in many ways perhaps this can be a lession for our Churches as well.

I quote from my friends journal:

"This journal refuses to follow the fashions of the global elite and its academic cognoscenti. It retains a focus on sobornopravanist–the local agrarian community as the center of Orthodox church life and its manifestation in Old Russia. This decentralist and medievalist agenda is tightly organized around defending the monastic and ascetic calling of the Orthodox–particularly the life devoted to hesychia–specifically for those who are forced to live and work in the modern west. "

If the role of the laity was discouraged in the latin church for such a long period I do not know if there is so much of an adequate ability for much natural development to occur in a direction harmonious to Orthodoxy. And I would say the same influence occurs with populations converting to western rite orthodoxy, though over time western rite orthodoxy appears to be able to heal from this condition more easily. I say this as one who has attended catechism classes for a western rite antiochian parish over the last 2 monthes.

For instance if the majority of people wanted to change the liturgy in a typical latin catholic church there is only so much that they can do. There is much that is beyond their control and is simply "rule of law" defined by bishops, their councils and or the Pope/magisterium.

I suspect that the reasons why the liturgy is the way it is has always been under the influence of the decisions of a bishop more than any other factor.

There is in my opinion a sense where what is called "artificial manipulation" has always occurred by bishops and is to a certain extent "natural"

These lines are extremely blurred for myself and for many others.

In the end I think bishops can do whatever they want to do and perhaps this is alright. It is simply that they make bad decisions and good decisions. Heresy or Holiness.

I also think that the Non-chalcedonian "Orthodox" (if you accept them as orthodox) Churches have a much better reputation and support of liturgical diversity. The Byzantinization of the Antiochians liturgy over their Syriac Oriental cousins does not seem to me desirable "accident" of history. I already see the liturgical uniformity as a weakness in the Byzantine Chalcedonian Orthodox Communion.

Although I do not think desirable a diversity which allows an Armenian exception to use unleavened bread for the Eucharist. 
 

PeterTheAleut

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Christopher McAvoy said:
In the end I think bishops can do whatever they want to do and perhaps this is alright. It is simply that they make bad decisions and good decisions. Heresy or Holiness.
Which in itself is an artificial dichotomy, an "either or" fallacy, if you will. ;)
 
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"Some modern scholars have suggested that Manichaean ways of thinking influenced the development of some of Augustine's ideas, such as the nature of good and evil, the idea of hell, the separation of groups into elect, hearers, and sinners, and the hostility to the flesh and sexual activity."

Perhaps I have pseudo-manichaean influence to my theology.
 

ialmisry

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Alveus Lacuna said:
I think that there is a reason that Rome and New Rome both ended up enforcing a uniform liturgy,
Yes.  Phyletism.

and I think that there is a solid reason that the variety of liturgical traditions died off.
They didn't die off, they were killed off.

That solid reason is phyletism again.

I think that a uniformity in praxis is related to a uniformity in doxia.  I'm certain many will disagree, but ritual is not separate from belief.  They go together.
They do, but that's got nothing to do with uniformity in praxis.

The Fathers of the Ecumenical Councils had uniformity in doxia.  They had absolutely NO uniformity in praxis.  That's a simple fact.
 

Alveus Lacuna

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Fair enough, but when I hear about people praising the uniformity of Orthodoxy despite geographic and cultural barriers, persecution, et cetera, they often refer to the church calendar and the structure of the liturgy.  No matter where I go, if the Church is Orthodox, I can worship and be a part of it all.

Just for fun, why can't we have an "American Rite" that modifies the liturgy to include rock music and dancing?  As long as we're still Orthodox in our doxia, can't our praxis differ?  A hymn to the Theotokos with bongos???  Sounds good to me!

With "Western Rite Orthodoxy", well, it just rubs me the wrong way.  Like reverse uniatism or something...

Throughout Orthodoxy today, the liturgy binds us together (along with Christos of course)!

I know that I am raising elementary arguments, but I think that uniformity in the core structure of the liturgy is essential to Orthodoxy.
 

ialmisry

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Alveus Lacuna said:
Fair enough, but when I hear about people praising the uniformity of Orthodoxy despite geographic and cultural barriers, persecution, et cetera, they often refer to the church calendar and the structure of the liturgy.  No matter where I go, if the Church is Orthodox, I can worship and be a part of it all.
St. Athanasius didn't seem to have a problem with the Western Rite Orthodox when he fled to Rome from the Arians in Alexandria and the East (the Arians, btw, had the same liturgy as the Eastern Orthodox).

Just for fun, why can't we have an "American Rite" that modifies the liturgy to include rock music and dancing?
Americans invented dancing?  Here I thought all the countries in Eastern Europe and the Middle East had dancing that they didn't put in their Liturgy.  Did Antioch put the dabkah in the DL?  Come to think of it, I've been to some Orthodox Churches where ethnic dancing was the liturgy.  At least, that is why the Orthodox came to the Church.

As long as we're still Orthodox in our doxia, can't our praxis differ?
Sure.  But maybe I shold have those Greeks and Serbs I talked to in Greece and Serbia to come over here and set things straight: they say the Greeks and Serbs in America don't celebrate DL the exact same way they do in Greece and Serbia.

  A hymn to the Theotokos with bongos???  Sounds good to me!
Sounds as good as with an organ, and I've heard plenty of them in Eastern Orthodox Churches.

With "Western Rite Orthodoxy", well, it just rubs me the wrong way.
Ah, the standard of Orthodoxy.

I have no use for WRO, because I'm Eastern, and so are my sons (their mother is Romanian).  I've gone to WRO just for solidarity for those who are Western like Pope St. Leo the Great and Gregory the Great (the one who gave us that Western import, the Presanctified Liturgy).

Like reverse uniatism or something...
Our version of the TLM is better?

Throughout Orthodoxy today, the liturgy binds us together (along with Christos of course)!
Does it bind us to those who have submitted to Rome?  The Arians?  The Pneumatichoi? The Monothelites?  The Iconoclasts?  who are use/used our same Divine Liturgy.

God never shone in the West?

I know that I am raising elementary arguments, but I think that uniformity in the core structure of the liturgy is essential to Orthodoxy.
How "different" do you think an Orthodox Mass is?
 

Ebor

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Alveus Lacuna said:
Just for fun, why can't we have an "American Rite" that modifies the liturgy to include rock music and dancing?  As long as we're still Orthodox in our doxia, can't our praxis differ?  A hymn to the Theotokos with bongos???  Sounds good to me!
Well, I knew a gentleman, cradle EO and his father, may he rest in Peace, was a deacon, who once said that in time he thought that there would be liturgical music from America, perhaps from something like folk or bluegrass or jazz or something else, but that it would probably take 200 years or so.  As to the hymn with bongos, I recall a thread somewhere here about liturgy in a part of Africa, Kenya maybe, where the local customs/music had a place and that includes some kinds of drums. 

I could not quite tell if you were serious in the above quote or using some form of sarcasm, btw. 

With "Western Rite Orthodoxy", well, it just rubs me the wrong way.  Like reverse uniatism or something...
There are those who will agree that it is like that reversal.  But can you think of other reasons why it "rubs" the wrong way? 

Throughout Orthodoxy today, the liturgy binds us together (along with Christos of course)!
But since there are WR parishes in good standing in at least 2 jurisdictions, there are different EO liturgies in existence now, are you not bound in someway that is not via the liturgy?

I know that I am raising elementary arguments, but I think that uniformity in the core structure of the liturgy is essential to Orthodoxy.
Can you tell us why you think that, please?

Ebor
 

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Ebor said:
As to the hymn with bongos, I recall a thread somewhere here about liturgy in a part of Africa, Kenya maybe, where the local customs/music had a place and that includes some kinds of drums. 


Kenya indeed
 

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mike said:
Ebor said:
As to the hymn with bongos, I recall a thread somewhere here about liturgy in a part of Africa, Kenya maybe, where the local customs/music had a place and that includes some kinds of drums. 


Kenya indeed
Cute. All very well and good. However, please note the following:

1. Yes, the photograph was taken in an Orthodox setting. Where, exactly, within a church, is not clear, but it is not the nave, not the ambon, but perhaps in the narthex.

2. The gentleman in black (he could be a priest, a priest-monk, or a "plain" monk, his mode of dress does not clarify his rank) is indeed playing bongos to an appreciative audience. He is not wearing a pectoral cross, but a laminated nametag, and there are several items protruding from the pocket of his robe which appear to be writing implements. If a priest or deacon, he is not vested in any way.

What can be concluded from this photograph?

1. This is not a liturgical setting.

2. This picture could well have been taken as part of a tour of the church, hence the nametag worn by the priest/priestmonk/monk.

3. No canonical or ecclesiastical approval for the use of bongos, or any other musical instrument should be implied by this photograph.

4. African traditions of song unaccompanied by musical intruments are the equal of anything associated with Orthodoxy (Byzantine, Slavic, Arabic, etc). So it seems that incorporating bongos or other instruments in Orthodox worship in African countries is pointless. Africans can readily adapt their rich and moving a capella traditions to Orthodox worship.
 

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The photo was taken during the SYNDESMOS meeting which was hold in Kenya in 2006. I agree that it wasn't taken during the Liturgy but it definitely was taken in the narthex. IMO the most probably was that they went to the Church after the Liturgy and enjoyed their time. I cannot imagine that someone has taken the drums to the church just to play them one time and then took them out.

But on the following pictures it's clearly visible that the drums are used during the Service.

See more of them: 1, 2, 3, 4.
 

Serge

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The Roman (Gregorian) Canon, the one in the Tridentine Mass, is older than the two Byzantine Rite eucharistic prayers.

I like the Antiochians' approach: take everything in Western Catholicism (the Russians approved the Tridentine Mass and Monastic Breviary in the 1800s) and Anglicanism (St Tikhon's idea) that can be used, use it and acknowledge the sources.

So Orthodox can use the Tridentine Mass and (more modified) Book of Common Prayer service (the Mass is actually from the American Missal, a unofficial catholicised US 1928 BCP service American Anglo-Catholics came up with and I think once approved in some Episcopal dioceses).

The argument for one translation is appealing as it is for the Byzantine Rite.

Then again there are and have been since the Middle Ages many versions (according to place and nation) within a rite.

Some of the differences between the Greek and Russian recensions of the Byzantine Liturgy can be found here.
 

LBK

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But on the following pictures it's clearly visible that the drums are used during the Service.
What service, Mike? The pictures in the links you provided show activities in the narthex, and one in the nave itself, but the priest is wearing no vestments at all, not even the bare minimum of cuffs and epitracheilion. There is no way any form of Orthodox service was being conducted while these pictures were taken.
 

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The second one is subtitled In the Liturgy and I don't have any doubts that it's not true.
 

Orthodox11

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LBK said:
1. This is not a liturgical setting.

2. This picture could well have been taken as part of a tour of the church, hence the nametag worn by the priest/priestmonk/monk.

3. No canonical or ecclesiastical approval for the use of bongos, or any other musical instrument should be implied by this photograph.

4. African traditions of song unaccompanied by musical intruments are the equal of anything associated with Orthodoxy (Byzantine, Slavic, Arabic, etc). So it seems that incorporating bongos or other instruments in Orthodox worship in African countries is pointless. Africans can readily adapt their rich and moving a capella traditions to Orthodox worship.
I attended Orthros and the Divine Liturgy in a Greek Orthodox parish in rural Kenya on a few occasions. The congregation all sang the hymns and responses in Swahili according to the Byzantine melodies (but with an African twist), and no musical instruments were used.

During the distribution of Holy Communion, however, popular Swahili religious songs were sung - I heard the same songs sung by Protestants, Catholics, Copts, etc. so I assume they're Protestant in origin - and these were accompanied by clapping and some form of percussion (I don't know the name of the instrument). I was told the same happens in the Cathedral in Nairobi.
 

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Full-vested His Holliness Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and all Africa Theodor II drumming in a Church in Kenya :)

IMO that proves that they are used in Liturgy.

Maybe Mods should cut the offtopic I've made and make a new thread?
 
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