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Should we care about St. Nicholas, NYC?

ialmisry

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Luke said:
After a few years of budget troubles, the Archdiocese is still determined to build it.  I wonder if they should just sell the property and either use the money to build on cheaper land or use the money to help with their budget and the Hellenic College/Holy Cross budget.
Since the new Metropolitan has been sent to drag GOARCH (and with the hope of the rest of North America, no doubt) into schism and heresy with his homeland the Fener, I no longer have any interest.
No, as a taxpayer, I do: let the US keep the money rather than waste it.
 

SolEX01

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I avoid my hard earned money from directly going to this white elephant.  How did the measly GOARCH convince the mighty Port Authority to build this white elephant is beyond comprehension (unless the Greeks had something on Cuomo).
 

Asteriktos

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My initial reaction is to go with the St. John Chrysostom approach to asset management here ("just sell the property and..."), but tbf losing this would probably be one more step in the visibility of Orthodoxy in America going from an embarrassing "best kept secret" thing to something even worse
 

Luke

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^except the original building looked nothing like the strange concept the Archdiocese has in mind.
 

Saxon

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GOARCH building another parish it can’t afford to establish or maintain? No thanks. Maybe a year-round gyro stand outside will keep the lights on.
 

hecma925

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Saxon said:
GOARCH building another parish it can’t afford to establish or maintain? No thanks. Maybe a year-round gyro stand outside will keep the lights on.
NYC food stand permits are difficult to get.
 

Luke

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hecma925 said:
Saxon said:
GOARCH building another parish it can’t afford to establish or maintain? No thanks. Maybe a year-round gyro stand outside will keep the lights on.
NYC food stand permits are difficult to get.
:laugh: :laugh:
 

ialmisry

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it could have been a magnificent pan-Orthodox project, but from the start it was made clear it was for the glory of Hellenism and Ultramarism.
 

augustin717

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ialmisry said:
it could have been a magnificent pan-Orthodox project, but from the start it was made clear it was for the glory of Hellenism and Ultramarism.
well, on the other hand, it Could have also been a magnificent old calendarist, genuine orthodox project.
I understand that until the ‘80’s the church was old calendar.
 

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Saxon said:
GOARCH building another parish it can’t afford to establish or maintain? No thanks. Maybe a year-round gyro stand outside will keep the lights on.
The only downside is the inevitable fast-breaking each Lent as the parishioners try to resolutely walk past it.
 

hecma925

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platypus said:
Saxon said:
GOARCH building another parish it can’t afford to establish or maintain? No thanks. Maybe a year-round gyro stand outside will keep the lights on.
The only downside is the inevitable fast-breaking each Lent as the parishioners try to resolutely walk past it.
Walk past and go to the hot dog stand around the corner.
 

Luke

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biro said:
If it were an Antiochian or Serbian parish, you'd be all for it.
But not me.  The Archdiocese seems obsessed with building this.  They need to clean up their budget troubles first.  This is not only your Archdiocese, it is mine also.  I give a hoot what they are doing.
 

SolEX01

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biro said:
If it were an Antiochian or Serbian parish, you'd be all for it.
I don't think the Antiochians or the Serbians have mismanaged $40 Million in donations or have white elephants floating in their parishes.

I haven't consciously donated one penny to the St. Nicholas replacement project.  I stopped Stewardship and attending my church because I didn't want my money going to the corrupt Archdiocese (and Patriarchate).  I don't care if they say that the Archdiocese's financial house is in order.  They mismanaged $40 Million for a white elephant whose incomplete skeleton is a disgrace to the Archdiocese.  The Archons run the Archdiocese especially those who work in high places.  They decided to give their "Human Rights Award" to the pseudo-Hierarch of the OCU.

The Greeks say that the fish rots from the head.  That head is Archbishop Elphidophoros (for the USA) and Patriarch Bartholomew (for the world).  :mad:

Forgive me for any anger displayed on this post.  :angel: 
 

Luke

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  ^ You have reason to be angry.  Do not worry about.  I once asked my priest how much of my giving goes to the Archdiocese.  He replied, "None."  I hope he is not pulling my leg.
 

Luke

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  ^ You have reason to be angry.  Do not worry about it.  I once asked my priest how much of my giving goes to the Archdiocese.  He replied, "None."  I hope he is not pulling my leg.
 

SolEX01

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Luke said:
  ^ You have reason to be angry.  Do not worry about.  I once asked my priest how much of my giving goes to the Archdiocese.  He replied, "None."  I hope he is not pulling my leg.
Every GOARCH church has a parish assessment based on how many "stewards" they have.  My church's parish assessment is over $120,000 or about 15% of the budget.  A couple of years ago, the Archdiocese almost closed churches in Massachusetts because the churches balked at the increase in their assessment.  As a compromise, the Archdiocese froze the commitments for a couple of years,  Those things aren't mentioned in the Orthodox Observer, whose 60 page glorification of Archbishop Elphidophoros arrived in the mail today.
 

LizaSymonenko

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ialmisry said:
Luke said:
After a few years of budget troubles, the Archdiocese is still determined to build it.  I wonder if they should just sell the property and either use the money to build on cheaper land or use the money to help with their budget and the Hellenic College/Holy Cross budget.
Since the new Metropolitan has been sent to drag GOARCH (and with the hope of the rest of North America, no doubt) into schism and heresy with his homeland the Fener, I no longer have any interest.
No, as a taxpayer, I do: let the US keep the money rather than waste it.
Wow.  Politics aside... this is a bit harsh.

Would you have said the same of say a Roman Catholic church or a Baptist church being rebuilt after a disaster?

I bet not.  I bet you would even shovel out funds to help them rebuild... as they are Christians and wish to worship the Lord... even if you would not share in their Sacraments (if they have them) you would nonetheless support them.

This hatred of the "other side" makes me sick.  It certainly isn't Christian by any means.
 

isxodnik

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Lisa projecting her hatred on others. Would she call the Apostle Paul a hater, too?
"But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner - not even to eat with such a person."
 

isxodnik

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You constantly and unfairly accuse opponents of hatred. Obviously, there's something about you that makes you see it (hatred) in others. These are the basics of psychology, you must know them, if you undertake to assess the motives of other people.
 

SolEX01

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isxodnik said:
SolEX01 said:
That head is ... Patriarch Bartholomew (for the world).
wow-wow, easy ))
I'm surprised you're defending His All-Holiness.  I thought you were pro-Russia.  The Church of Greece was strong-armed by the US in recognizing the OCU even at the risk of excommunication by Russia.  The OCU isn't allowed to have parishes outside of Ukraine which leaves the future of UOC-USA and UOCC in limbo.  I can't prove it; I think the money raised by GOARCH for St. Nicholas went to fund the creation of the OCU.

I was almost arrested at an event His All-Holiness attended in 2004 (and I didn't buy a $100 ticket for the Patriarchal banquet although I gorged on the lenten appetizers).  I have to admit that I didn't have a good day from the beginning.  Fortunately, I was asked to leave by security and got a $81 traffic ticket in some New Jersey town on the way home.
 

isxodnik

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This language barrier! You said patr. Bartholomew the head, I said - easy. Apparently, at some stage there was a misunderstanding ))
 

LizaSymonenko

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isxodnik said:
You constantly and unfairly accuse opponents of hatred. Obviously, there's something about you that makes you see it (hatred) in others. These are the basics of psychology, you must know them, if you undertake to assess the motives of other people.
I don't "see" hatred... I read it.... and it is clearly written by pious Orthodox Christians.

You say I "unfairly" accuse "opponents" of hatred?

First, it is not "unfair" if I simply quote or refer to what is written. 
Second, I didn't realize we were opponents.  Aren't we all Christians?
 

LizaSymonenko

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SolEX01 said:
The OCU isn't allowed to have parishes outside of Ukraine which leaves the future of UOC-USA and UOCC in limbo. 
Why does this leave the UOCofUSA in limbo? 

The Church is for people living in the US.  While it is geared mostly toward people of Ukrainian heritage who live in the United States, the services are in both languages, as the second and third generations no longer speak the language. 

There are also a good many Mission Parishes, which are filled with converts and individuals of various backgrounds and ethnicities...where only English is used.

The UOCofUSA is a Church in the United States, and serves the people in the US.... and has never expressed a desire to be part of any Church in Ukraine.

You may be confusing the UOCofUSA with a few parishes who separated and joined the KP at one time.  These are the parishes that are now in limbo... as per the Tomos they may not join the OCU, and their pride hinders them returning to the UOCofUSA.

SolEX01 said:
I can't prove it; I think the money raised by GOARCH for St. Nicholas went to fund the creation of the OCU.
This is a serious allegation... that is completely unfounded.  You are spreading rumors with no real basis.
 

Ainnir

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isxodnik said:
This language barrier! You said patr. Bartholomew the head, I said - easy. Apparently, at some stage there was a misunderstanding ))
You're saying be careful calling Patriarch Bartholomew the head of Orthodoxy? 
Maybe SolEX01 meant the world sees Patriarch Bartholomew as the head of Orthodoxy (whether he really is or isn't)?
 

SolEX01

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The current GOARCH Archbishop said that the EP was first without equals.  By definition, that makes him the head of the Orthodox church and he's corrupt because he doesn't want to be first among equals.
 

isxodnik

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LizaSymonenko said:
Second, I didn't realize we were opponents.  Aren't we all Christians?
The opponent is the second party in the dispute.

LizaSymonenko said:
SolEX01 said:
I can't prove it; I think the money raised by GOARCH for St. Nicholas went to fund the creation of the OCU.
This is a serious allegation... that is completely unfounded.  You are spreading rumors with no real basis.
I, too, think that one of the goals of creation OCU was to pump money out of it, not spend it on it.

Ainnir said:
You're saying be careful calling Patriarch Bartholomew the head of Orthodoxy? 
Maybe SolEX01 meant the world sees Patriarch Bartholomew as the head of Orthodoxy (whether he really is or isn't)?
Yes, because that is the papacy.
I think, by and large, world is indifferent to the patr. Bartholomew )

SolEX01 said:
The current GOARCH Archbishop said that the EP was first without equals.  By definition, that makes him the head of the Orthodox church and he's corrupt because he doesn't want to be first among equals.
They are now talking a lot, in pursuit of the primacy gaining the primacy of dishonor.
 

ialmisry

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LizaSymonenko said:
ialmisry said:
Luke said:
After a few years of budget troubles, the Archdiocese is still determined to build it.  I wonder if they should just sell the property and either use the money to build on cheaper land or use the money to help with their budget and the Hellenic College/Holy Cross budget.
Since the new Metropolitan has been sent to drag GOARCH (and with the hope of the rest of North America, no doubt) into schism and heresy with his homeland the Fener, I no longer have any interest.
No, as a taxpayer, I do: let the US keep the money rather than waste it.
Wow.  Politics aside... this is a bit harsh.

Would you have said the same of say a Roman Catholic church or a Baptist church being rebuilt after a disaster?

I bet not.  I bet you would even shovel out funds to help them rebuild... as they are Christians and wish to worship the Lord... even if you would not share in their Sacraments (if they have them) you would nonetheless support them.

This hatred of the "other side" makes me sick.  It certainly isn't Christian by any means.
Just yanking the band aid off. If the Fener returns to Orthodoxy as in 1454 or goes its own way as Old Rome did four centuries earlier, I'd rather that upheaval happen in my day so my sons and hoped for grandchildren have peace in Orthodoxy, shorn of any attachments to schismatics falling deeper into heresy.

isxodnik said:
Lisa projecting her hatred on others. Would she call the Apostle Paul a hater, too?
"But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner - not even to eat with such a person."
No, Lisa has no hatred to project. But it does swirl around her in the circles she stands in:they're speaking, the fish rotting from the head.
 

ialmisry

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biro said:
If it were an Antiochian or Serbian parish, you'd be all for it.
Neither Antioch nor Serbia is embracing schism and heresy.
 

ialmisry

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SolEX01 said:
Luke said:
  ^ You have reason to be angry.  Do not worry about.  I once asked my priest how much of my giving goes to the Archdiocese.  He replied, "None."  I hope he is not pulling my leg.
Every GOARCH church has a parish assessment based on how many "stewards" they have.  My church's parish assessment is over $120,000 or about 15% of the budget.  A couple of years ago, the Archdiocese almost closed churches in Massachusetts because the churches balked at the increase in their assessment.  As a compromise, the Archdiocese froze the commitments for a couple of years,  Those things aren't mentioned in the Orthodox Observer, whose 60 page glorification of Archbishop Elphidophoros arrived in the mail today.
why don't we have a barf emoji?
Was it at least printed on thin paper?
 

ialmisry

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LizaSymonenko said:
SolEX01 said:
The OCU isn't allowed to have parishes outside of Ukraine which leaves the future of UOC-USA and UOCC in limbo. 
Why does this leave the UOCofUSA in limbo? 

The Church is for people living in the US.  While it is geared mostly toward people of Ukrainian heritage who live in the United States, the services are in both languages, as the second and third generations no longer speak the language. 

There are also a good many Mission Parishes, which are filled with converts and individuals of various backgrounds and ethnicities...where only English is used.

The UOCofUSA is a Church in the United States, and serves the people in the US.... and has never expressed a desire to be part of any Church in Ukraine.

You may be confusing the UOCofUSA with a few parishes who separated and joined the KP at one time.  These are the parishes that are now in limbo... as per the Tomos they may not join the OCU, and their pride hinders them returning to the UOCofUSA.
the supposed "retired" primate of the OCU (or was it KP, I'm not sure what the official shuffle was in this crooked card game) might be "solving" their problem for them.
 

WPM

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If there were some kind of Seal or Emblem being installed at Ground Zero, I would care.
 

StanislavU

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LizaSymonenko said:
You may be confusing the UOCofUSA with a few parishes who separated and joined the KP at one time.  These are the parishes that are now in limbo... as per the Tomos they may not join the OCU, and their pride hinders them returning to the UOCofUSA.
Actually, this is not exactly my reading of the situation. These parishes DID implicitly join the OCU, simply by being technically part od the Diocese of Kyiv. After all, there are European and Russian parishes and even bishops in exactly the same situation who very explicitly did join the OCU and were listed as such. Now, per Tomos and the Charted, they do need to join the EP at some point, in some form - TBD at the moment. Yeah, there is much pride, and also some cultural clashes.
 

StanislavU

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ialmisry said:
the supposed "retired" primate of the OCU (or was it KP, I'm not sure what the official shuffle was in this crooked card game) might be "solving" their problem for them.
nah. If they wanted to be vagante there are other options, besides "UOC KP 2.0". My guess is they'll quietly stay as they are for as long as it's practical.
 
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