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Simple quick question about praying at college chapel with idols.

rakovsky

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There is a college chapel that has ecumenical and catholic services, and there is no orthodox church nearby. The chapel wants to reach out to all its students religions, so it puts idols at the front. Is it a bad idea to even worship and pray there?
Please anybody answer.

Thank you!
 

Iconodule

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I would say probably find somewhere else. What sort of idols?
 

AntoniousNikolas

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Iconodule said:
I would say probably find somewhere else. What sort of idols?
+1

Do you mean statues of polytheistic deities, etc.?
 

hecma925

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You dont need an idol of Mammon.
 

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Thanks, everyone.

The idea of the college is that the chapel is for the world's religions, so they have the typical heathen statues and art, like Buddhas, sleeping Vishnu, other Hindu deities, and maybe even more things like Zoroastrian or Wiccan art.
They cover them with curtains during the mass, but the idols are still kept next to the altar at the front.
 

AntoniousNikolas

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rakovsky said:
Thanks, everyone.

The idea of the college is that the chapel is for the world's religions, so they have the typical heathen statues and art, like Buddhas, sleeping Vishnu, other Hindu deities, and maybe even more things like Zoroastrian or Wiccan art.
They cover them with curtains during the mass, but the idols are still kept next to the altar at the front.
Let sleeping Vishnus lie and go pray somewhere else.
 

Antonis

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Fordham University's official prayer book has Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Pagan prayers alongside Catholic ones, and their Jesuit retirement home has a statue of Ganesh in it with a wreath around it. :p
 

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Antonious Nikolas said:
rakovsky said:
Thanks, everyone.

The idea of the college is that the chapel is for the world's religions, so they have the typical heathen statues and art, like Buddhas, sleeping Vishnu, other Hindu deities, and maybe even more things like Zoroastrian or Wiccan art.
They cover them with curtains during the mass, but the idols are still kept next to the altar at the front.
Let sleeping Vishnus lie and go pray somewhere else.
+1

Now, if an evil or misguided priest defiled an altar by concealing an idol behind a curtain or the iconostasis of an Orthodox Church (kyrie eleison), in the interests of some stupid objective of interfaith syncretism, you would be blameless praying there (because the Church vs. Donatism and Novatianism), but since you know Vishnu is behind the curtain, it would be impossible not to interpret your worship there in a manner that offers some latria to Vishnu.  The altar should be regarded as desecrated.  If there is an Orthodox service there, tell the bishop; if its only RC services that are affected, tell the bishop anyway, but alas, don't hold your breath, as a lot of RC bishops aren't going to take proper action.

I think the limit to this sort of thing is multiple chapels in the same building or complex.  For example, the USAF Academy, which has a giant, towering chapel (designed by the architects of the Sears Tower) with various sub-chapels catering to Protestantism, Judaism, Catholicism, Orthodoxy and other religions. 
 

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I'd rather go stand in a field and pray than try to worship in such a place.

But that's just me.
 

IXOYE

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Just pray in front of an icon large or small in your room or as TheTrisagion said.
 

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Alpha60 said:
Antonious Nikolas said:
rakovsky said:
Thanks, everyone.

The idea of the college is that the chapel is for the world's religions, so they have the typical heathen statues and art, like Buddhas, sleeping Vishnu, other Hindu deities, and maybe even more things like Zoroastrian or Wiccan art.
They cover them with curtains during the mass, but the idols are still kept next to the altar at the front.
Let sleeping Vishnus lie and go pray somewhere else.
+1

Now, if an evil or misguided priest defiled an altar by concealing an idol behind a curtain or the iconostasis of an Orthodox Church (kyrie eleison), in the interests of some stupid objective of interfaith syncretism, you would be blameless praying there (because the Church vs. Donatism and Novatianism), but since you know Vishnu is behind the curtain, it would be impossible not to interpret your worship there in a manner that offers some latria to Vishnu.  The altar should be regarded as desecrated.  If there is an Orthodox service there, tell the bishop; if its only RC services that are affected, tell the bishop anyway, but alas, don't hold your breath, as a lot of RC bishops aren't going to take proper action.

I think the limit to this sort of thing is multiple chapels in the same building or complex.  For example, the USAF Academy, which has a giant, towering chapel (designed by the architects of the Sears Tower) with various sub-chapels catering to Protestantism, Judaism, Catholicism, Orthodoxy and other religions.
Indeed, one should always take into account mitigating circumstances. If, for example, the presiding priest were a secret devotee of Kali (AKA a member of the Thugee cult, sensationally but delightfully portrayed in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom) and he were to sacrifice a victim on the altar by cutting his heart out and setting it aflame in his hands while muttering, "Kali ma", one must consider the altar defiled and contact the appropriate canonical authority immediately. A more difficult question arises with regards to the status of the antimens and whether blood has fallen upon it. In my opinion, having googled numerous canonical authorities, an antimens unstained by blood remains usable. A more interesting conundrum occurs when the sacrifice to Kali is accomplished behind a curtain or iconostasis, hidden from the laity (I am assuming the victim is somehow being silenced some way, so that the people outside the sanctuary cannot hear his groans- a gag, perhaps, or some drug; I personally prefer chloroform as an effective means of overcoming stubborn resistance, when, for instance, my classic pick-up line, "Wanna see my vestments collection?" proves ineffectual) in what appears otherwise to be a normal Orthodox liturgy. I believe in such an instance only a Donatist would assert that a valid eucharist is not confected.

Further complications arise however with the introduction of canines into the sacred space. As is well known, the presence of a dog in the altar area defiles the altar and surely such an animal would be attracted to the premises by the smell of fresh meat (this is why I keep a cat safely tucked in my coat pocket during liturgy as a safeguard against the intrusion of dogs; cats, being canonically permitted in the sanctuary, must logically negate any defilement incurred by the intrusion of a canine, provided that the cat is introduced to the altar area in a timely fashion. I believe my precaution will be borne out in due time when my cat prevents what could otherwise be a very involved affair of the bishop being summoned to a parish to reconsecrate an altar. I expect a ready promotion through ecclesiastic ranks once my resourcefulness and foresight is made known to the bishop. I have lately been trying on a set of patriarchal vestments to master the correct gait and deportment of a new hierarch of Syriac Orthodoxy) so the question is whether the laity in the nave observed the dog entering or whether it made ingress via some passageway from behind the altar. This is why I vociferously argue against the installation of "doggie door" flaps in church doors.
 

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I would suggest you remember the old saying--"chapel idols are the devil's playthings"
 

ialmisry

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Going in with shoes for Hindus would be an affront to the idols. So maybe don't worship, just walk around in shoes.
 

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At my university, there was a very small chapel that I never saw anyone in.  There was a large, old Bible at the "altar".
 

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rakovsky said:
Thanks, everyone.

The idea of the college is that the chapel is for the world's religions, so they have the typical heathen statues and art, like Buddhas, sleeping Vishnu, other Hindu deities, and maybe even more things like Zoroastrian or Wiccan art.
They cover them with curtains during the mass, but the idols are still kept next to the altar at the front.
That's beyond weird.
 

AntoniousNikolas

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Iconodule said:
Alpha60 said:
Antonious Nikolas said:
rakovsky said:
Thanks, everyone.

The idea of the college is that the chapel is for the world's religions, so they have the typical heathen statues and art, like Buddhas, sleeping Vishnu, other Hindu deities, and maybe even more things like Zoroastrian or Wiccan art.
They cover them with curtains during the mass, but the idols are still kept next to the altar at the front.
Let sleeping Vishnus lie and go pray somewhere else.
+1

Now, if an evil or misguided priest defiled an altar by concealing an idol behind a curtain or the iconostasis of an Orthodox Church (kyrie eleison), in the interests of some stupid objective of interfaith syncretism, you would be blameless praying there (because the Church vs. Donatism and Novatianism), but since you know Vishnu is behind the curtain, it would be impossible not to interpret your worship there in a manner that offers some latria to Vishnu.  The altar should be regarded as desecrated.  If there is an Orthodox service there, tell the bishop; if its only RC services that are affected, tell the bishop anyway, but alas, don't hold your breath, as a lot of RC bishops aren't going to take proper action.

I think the limit to this sort of thing is multiple chapels in the same building or complex.  For example, the USAF Academy, which has a giant, towering chapel (designed by the architects of the Sears Tower) with various sub-chapels catering to Protestantism, Judaism, Catholicism, Orthodoxy and other religions.
Indeed, one should always take into account mitigating circumstances. If, for example, the presiding priest were a secret devotee of Kali (AKA a member of the Thugee cult, sensationally but delightfully portrayed in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom) and he were to sacrifice a victim on the altar by cutting his heart out and setting it aflame in his hands while muttering, "Kali ma", one must consider the altar defiled and contact the appropriate canonical authority immediately. A more difficult question arises with regards to the status of the antimens and whether blood has fallen upon it. In my opinion, having googled numerous canonical authorities, an antimens unstained by blood remains usable. A more interesting conundrum occurs when the sacrifice to Kali is accomplished behind a curtain or iconostasis, hidden from the laity (I am assuming the victim is somehow being silenced some way, so that the people outside the sanctuary cannot hear his groans- a gag, perhaps, or some drug; I personally prefer chloroform as an effective means of overcoming stubborn resistance, when, for instance, my classic pick-up line, "Wanna see my vestments collection?" proves ineffectual) in what appears otherwise to be a normal Orthodox liturgy. I believe in such an instance only a Donatist would assert that a valid eucharist is not confected.

Further complications arise however with the introduction of canines into the sacred space. As is well known, the presence of a dog in the altar area defiles the altar and surely such an animal would be attracted to the premises by the smell of fresh meat (this is why I keep a cat safely tucked in my coat pocket during liturgy as a safeguard against the intrusion of dogs; cats, being canonically permitted in the sanctuary, must logically negate any defilement incurred by the intrusion of a canine, provided that the cat is introduced to the altar area in a timely fashion. I believe my precaution will be borne out in due time when my cat prevents what could otherwise be a very involved affair of the bishop being summoned to a parish to reconsecrate an altar. I expect a ready promotion through ecclesiastic ranks once my resourcefulness and foresight is made known to the bishop. I have lately been trying on a set of patriarchal vestments to master the correct gait and deportment of a new hierarch of Syriac Orthodoxy) so the question is whether the laity in the nave observed the dog entering or whether it made ingress via some passageway from behind the altar. This is why I vociferously argue against the installation of "doggie door" flaps in church doors.
 

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Iconodule said:
Alpha60 said:
Antonious Nikolas said:
rakovsky said:
Thanks, everyone.

The idea of the college is that the chapel is for the world's religions, so they have the typical heathen statues and art, like Buddhas, sleeping Vishnu, other Hindu deities, and maybe even more things like Zoroastrian or Wiccan art.
They cover them with curtains during the mass, but the idols are still kept next to the altar at the front.
Let sleeping Vishnus lie and go pray somewhere else.
+1

Now, if an evil or misguided priest defiled an altar by concealing an idol behind a curtain or the iconostasis of an Orthodox Church (kyrie eleison), in the interests of some stupid objective of interfaith syncretism, you would be blameless praying there (because the Church vs. Donatism and Novatianism), but since you know Vishnu is behind the curtain, it would be impossible not to interpret your worship there in a manner that offers some latria to Vishnu.  The altar should be regarded as desecrated.  If there is an Orthodox service there, tell the bishop; if its only RC services that are affected, tell the bishop anyway, but alas, don't hold your breath, as a lot of RC bishops aren't going to take proper action.

I think the limit to this sort of thing is multiple chapels in the same building or complex.  For example, the USAF Academy, which has a giant, towering chapel (designed by the architects of the Sears Tower) with various sub-chapels catering to Protestantism, Judaism, Catholicism, Orthodoxy and other religions.
Indeed, one should always take into account mitigating circumstances. If, for example, the presiding priest were a secret devotee of Kali (AKA a member of the Thugee cult, sensationally but delightfully portrayed in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom) and he were to sacrifice a victim on the altar by cutting his heart out and setting it aflame in his hands while muttering, "Kali ma", one must consider the altar defiled and contact the appropriate canonical authority immediately. A more difficult question arises with regards to the status of the antimens and whether blood has fallen upon it. In my opinion, having googled numerous canonical authorities, an antimens unstained by blood remains usable. A more interesting conundrum occurs when the sacrifice to Kali is accomplished behind a curtain or iconostasis, hidden from the laity (I am assuming the victim is somehow being silenced some way, so that the people outside the sanctuary cannot hear his groans- a gag, perhaps, or some drug; I personally prefer chloroform as an effective means of overcoming stubborn resistance, when, for instance, my classic pick-up line, "Wanna see my vestments collection?" proves ineffectual) in what appears otherwise to be a normal Orthodox liturgy. I believe in such an instance only a Donatist would assert that a valid eucharist is not confected.

Further complications arise however with the introduction of canines into the sacred space. As is well known, the presence of a dog in the altar area defiles the altar and surely such an animal would be attracted to the premises by the smell of fresh meat (this is why I keep a cat safely tucked in my coat pocket during liturgy as a safeguard against the intrusion of dogs; cats, being canonically permitted in the sanctuary, must logically negate any defilement incurred by the intrusion of a canine, provided that the cat is introduced to the altar area in a timely fashion. I believe my precaution will be borne out in due time when my cat prevents what could otherwise be a very involved affair of the bishop being summoned to a parish to reconsecrate an altar. I expect a ready promotion through ecclesiastic ranks once my resourcefulness and foresight is made known to the bishop. I have lately been trying on a set of patriarchal vestments to master the correct gait and deportment of a new hierarch of Syriac Orthodoxy) so the question is whether the laity in the nave observed the dog entering or whether it made ingress via some passageway from behind the altar. This is why I vociferously argue against the installation of "doggie door" flaps in church doors.
!!!!!  ;D ;D I'm still choking and heaving trying to calm down. That delivered punch upon punch of merciless humor.
 

AntoniousNikolas

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Indeed.  Iconodule has become the undisputed master of one very particular form of parody that anyone who has suffered through what he is parodying would surely appreciate.
 

TheTrisagion

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Antonious Nikolas said:
Indeed.  Iconodule has become the undisputed master of one very particular form of parody that anyone who has suffered through what he is parodying would surely appreciate.
;D
 

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The whole thing was great, but the parenthetical joke - "I am assuming the victim is somehow being silenced some way, so that the people outside the sanctuary cannot hear his groans- a gag, perhaps, or some drug; I personally prefer chloroform as an effective means of overcoming stubborn resistance, when, for instance, my classic pick-up line, "Wanna see my vestments collection?" proves ineffectual" - was pure gold!  :D
 

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Iconodule said:
Alpha60 said:
Antonious Nikolas said:
rakovsky said:
Thanks, everyone.

The idea of the college is that the chapel is for the world's religions, so they have the typical heathen statues and art, like Buddhas, sleeping Vishnu, other Hindu deities, and maybe even more things like Zoroastrian or Wiccan art.
They cover them with curtains during the mass, but the idols are still kept next to the altar at the front.
Let sleeping Vishnus lie and go pray somewhere else.
+1

Now, if an evil or misguided priest defiled an altar by concealing an idol behind a curtain or the iconostasis of an Orthodox Church (kyrie eleison), in the interests of some stupid objective of interfaith syncretism, you would be blameless praying there (because the Church vs. Donatism and Novatianism), but since you know Vishnu is behind the curtain, it would be impossible not to interpret your worship there in a manner that offers some latria to Vishnu.  The altar should be regarded as desecrated.  If there is an Orthodox service there, tell the bishop; if its only RC services that are affected, tell the bishop anyway, but alas, don't hold your breath, as a lot of RC bishops aren't going to take proper action.

I think the limit to this sort of thing is multiple chapels in the same building or complex.  For example, the USAF Academy, which has a giant, towering chapel (designed by the architects of the Sears Tower) with various sub-chapels catering to Protestantism, Judaism, Catholicism, Orthodoxy and other religions.
Indeed, one should always take into account mitigating circumstances. If, for example, the presiding priest were a secret devotee of Kali (AKA a member of the Thugee cult, sensationally but delightfully portrayed in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom) and he were to sacrifice a victim on the altar by cutting his heart out and setting it aflame in his hands while muttering, "Kali ma", one must consider the altar defiled and contact the appropriate canonical authority immediately. A more difficult question arises with regards to the status of the antimens and whether blood has fallen upon it. In my opinion, having googled numerous canonical authorities, an antimens unstained by blood remains usable. A more interesting conundrum occurs when the sacrifice to Kali is accomplished behind a curtain or iconostasis, hidden from the laity (I am assuming the victim is somehow being silenced some way, so that the people outside the sanctuary cannot hear his groans- a gag, perhaps, or some drug; I personally prefer chloroform as an effective means of overcoming stubborn resistance, when, for instance, my classic pick-up line, "Wanna see my vestments collection?" proves ineffectual) in what appears otherwise to be a normal Orthodox liturgy. I believe in such an instance only a Donatist would assert that a valid eucharist is not confected.

Further complications arise however with the introduction of canines into the sacred space. As is well known, the presence of a dog in the altar area defiles the altar and surely such an animal would be attracted to the premises by the smell of fresh meat (this is why I keep a cat safely tucked in my coat pocket during liturgy as a safeguard against the intrusion of dogs; cats, being canonically permitted in the sanctuary, must logically negate any defilement incurred by the intrusion of a canine, provided that the cat is introduced to the altar area in a timely fashion. I believe my precaution will be borne out in due time when my cat prevents what could otherwise be a very involved affair of the bishop being summoned to a parish to reconsecrate an altar. I expect a ready promotion through ecclesiastic ranks once my resourcefulness and foresight is made known to the bishop. I have lately been trying on a set of patriarchal vestments to master the correct gait and deportment of a new hierarch of Syriac Orthodoxy) so the question is whether the laity in the nave observed the dog entering or whether it made ingress via some passageway from behind the altar. This is why I vociferously argue against the installation of "doggie door" flaps in church doors.
Most amusing!  ;D

Btw, there actually is, on Google Books, a translation of canons from the Assyrian Church of the East which deal with all sorts of strange ways in which their altars can become inadvertantly desecrated, requiring the bishop.  For example, if an Assyrian priest is on a ladder in the altar, for some reason, and his sandal falls off and lands on the floor, and henis unabke to don it without touching the consecrated space with his bare foot.  Or if he accidentally consecrates oil in the Eucharist instead of wine.  Which must lead to an awkward phone call..."Your grace, I made a minor mishap in the Raza this morning..."
 

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Antonious Nikolas said:
The whole thing was great, but the parenthetical joke - "I am assuming the victim is somehow being silenced some way, so that the people outside the sanctuary cannot hear his groans- a gag, perhaps, or some drug; I personally prefer chloroform as an effective means of overcoming stubborn resistance, when, for instance, my classic pick-up line, "Wanna see my vestments collection?" proves ineffectual" - was pure gold!  :D
Except when have you ever seen me use the word "wanna"?  Realism, chaps.  ;)  It was funny, but Iconodule can't quite write me yet.  Thus, the parody comes across as obvious apocrypha.  :p
 

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Antonis said:
Fordham University's official prayer book has Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Pagan prayers alongside Catholic ones, and their Jesuit retirement home has a statue of Ganesh in it with a wreath around it. :p
Gross
 

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Alpha60 said:
Antonious Nikolas said:
The whole thing was great, but the parenthetical joke - "I am assuming the victim is somehow being silenced some way, so that the people outside the sanctuary cannot hear his groans- a gag, perhaps, or some drug; I personally prefer chloroform as an effective means of overcoming stubborn resistance, when, for instance, my classic pick-up line, "Wanna see my vestments collection?" proves ineffectual" - was pure gold!  :D
Except when have you ever seen me use the word "wanna"?  Realism, chaps.  ;)  It was funny, but Iconodule can't quite write me yet.  Thus, the parody comes across as obvious apocrypha.  :p
Well, in your last post you used the phrase "henis unabke" in place of "he is unable" so naturally I attributed Iconodule's use of the phrase "wanna" to the bloody fingers and arthritic affliction which never quite seems to prevent you from posting at length.  Unless you're going to tell me that Henis Unabke is the name of some Frisian antiquarian who specializes in West Syriac or something.
 

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Tired of you trying to showcase intellectual prowess in rhetoric
 

Iconodule

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WPM said:
Tired of you trying to showcase intellectual prowess in rhetoric
At Khrysippos' lecture I saw the blank space coming up on the scroll, and said to the audience: Cheer up fellows, land is in sight!

-Diogenes of Sinope
 

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WPM said:
Tired of you trying to showcase intellectual prowess in rhetoric
As far as I can tell you belong to a Brookshires or a Whataburger or a certain kind of deceiving cross-female tom boy.


 

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Iconodule said:
WPM said:
Tired of you trying to showcase intellectual prowess in rhetoric
At Khrysippos' lecture I saw the blank space coming up on the scroll, and said to the audience: Cheer up fellows, land is in sight!

-Diogenes of Sinope
Love it.
 

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Antonious Nikolas said:
WPM said:
Tired of you trying to showcase intellectual prowess in rhetoric
As far as I can tell you belong to a Brookshires or a Whataburger or a certain kind of deceiving cross-female tom boy.
I love Whataburgers.  Alas my state is devoid of them.  I'd have a Whataburger with you during any non-fasting evening.  :)
 

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Alpha60 said:
Antonious Nikolas said:
WPM said:
Tired of you trying to showcase intellectual prowess in rhetoric
As far as I can tell you belong to a Brookshires or a Whataburger or a certain kind of deceiving cross-female tom boy.
I love Whataburgers.  Alas my state is devoid of them.  I'd have a Whataburger with you during any non-fasting evening.  :)
Probably something to do with psychedelic shrooms.
 
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