I believe God exists because of Jesus Christ, His resurrection, and the great historical evidence for it.Zeus12 said:Please tell me why you believe He (or She) is actually there.
If possible, it would be nice to have fairly concise replies.
Thank you guys.
I added a tag (atheism) to the bottom of this thread, and added the same tag to several recent discussions we've had on the matter (it's been rather heavily discussed as of late, it seems), so feel free to look through the threads.Zeus12 said:Please tell me why you believe He (or She) is actually there.
If possible, it would be nice to have fairly concise replies.
Thank you guys.
I don't think he is there.Aposphet said:How can I believe you are there?
So in short, you believe in God because there is great historical evidence of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I know the Bible describes this resurrection, but where else can I find this evidence? I have been hesitant to believe the Adam & Eve story, and thus the significance of Jesus's resurrection, because of the historical evidence of human evolution.I believe God exists because of Jesus Christ, His resurrection, and the great historical evidence for it.
It is interesting that one witness is admissable in court, but when speaking to historical evidence of Christ's resurrection, the four independent testimonies canonized in Scripture aren't considered admissible. Not to mention the thousands of others who bore witness, whose testimony has passed through the ages. Not to mention others who have testified to miraculous appearances of Christ, or His Mother, even those who were not Christians...at least not at that time. Just an interesting observation.Zeus12 said:GIC, thanks for the tag. I should note that I don't necessarily consider myself an Atheist nor do I deny the existence of God... I just haven't found anything that has convinced me to believe (at least not yet).
So in short, you believe in God because there is great historical evidence of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I know the Bible describes this resurrection, but where else can I find this evidence? I have been hesitant to believe the Adam & Eve story, and thus the significance of Jesus's resurrection, because of the historical evidence of human evolution.I believe God exists because of Jesus Christ, His resurrection, and the great historical evidence for it.
Aren't "being convinced by evidence" and "believing" two contradictory things?Zeus12 said:I just haven't found anything that has convinced me to believe (at least not yet).
Yes, I would. Also, it's possible that they believed something to be true, without it actually being true.Azurestone said:I think it's interesting that the twelve Apostles (who saw Jesus), willingly died in his name, a historically verifiable fact. Would you willingly die for something you knew was false?
You would? Interesting.Asteriktos said:Yes, I would. Also, it's possible that they believed something to be true, without it actually being true.Azurestone said:I think it's interesting that the twelve Apostles (who saw Jesus), willingly died in his name, a historically verifiable fact. Would you willingly die for something you knew was false?
Welcome to the forum!Zeus12 said:Please tell me why you believe He (or She) is actually there.
If possible, it would be nice to have fairly concise replies.
Thank you guys.
Excellent point. If one can be argued into Christianity by the evidence, then where the heck does faith come in? Or is the reverse true, we first have faith, then "believe" there is evidence to support our faith?ozgeorge said:Aren't "being convinced by evidence" and "believing" two contradictory things?Zeus12 said:I just haven't found anything that has convinced me to believe (at least not yet).
I think it's just that this issue has been discussed so much recently, people come here already in polemics mode. That's why I went to the trouble of tagging the threads on the issue for him, I'd be really surprised if this thread turned into a productive discussion (few on this subject ever do, everyone's just too defensive).NorthernPines said:I realize sometimes we get insincere people coming here just trying to argue about God's existence but it feels to me that too many people are jumping on this new poster here and that may be a bit unfounded at the moment. Again I realize we've got a long history of people coming here to just to bash Christianity, and perhaps this person is the same however I say let's try and give him a bit of a break, just for a short time and see what pans out. If he is sincere going the Lee Strobel route may or may not be the best method of discussion. Again, it might be, I don't know. I understand that this feels like the same old same old, but it may not be either.
NP
I'd actually use the 70 as an example, too; of the 12, 10 died martyr's deaths, 1 died of old age, 1 committed suicide. If we count Matthias instead of Judas, then we're at 11 of 12. However, IIRC, most or all of the 70 died martyr's deaths.Azurestone said:I think it's interesting that the twelve Apostles (who saw Jesus), willingly died in his name, a historically verifiable fact. Would you willingly die for something you knew was false?
How does historical evidence of human evolution automatically mean that Christianity isn't true? Can't both be true?Zeus12 said:GIC, thanks for the tag. I should note that I don't necessarily consider myself an Atheist nor do I deny the existence of God... I just haven't found anything that has convinced me to believe (at least not yet).
So in short, you believe in God because there is great historical evidence of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I know the Bible describes this resurrection, but where else can I find this evidence? I have been hesitant to believe the Adam & Eve story, and thus the significance of Jesus's resurrection, because of the historical evidence of human evolution.I believe God exists because of Jesus Christ, His resurrection, and the great historical evidence for it.
Especially when the evidence that is presented is rejected out of hand. Which is my experience with these types of discussions.theistgal said:To paraphrase a lot of what the late great skeptic Martin Gardner said, there is simply never going to be enough evidence on either side of the debate to convince everyone, so you just have to look at what's there and make your own decision. And whichever choice you make, try to respect those on the other side of the chasm who chose otherwise.
Well, let me clarify, there would have to be something much more important at stake. For example, I'd die for a lie if I thought it would save (immediately or eventually) a lot of people's lives, or perhaps just a few lives if they were ones special to me (e.g. my daughters). Now admittedly, given what we know about Chrisitanity, I think fitting that approach into the Christian situation would be difficult... but not necessarily impossible. I guess it would depend on who was lying, what they were lying about, how much was at stake, etc. Now, having said that, I have to admit that I'm sort of playing devil's advocate here. Of the various evidences people use for Christianity, this one about early believers dying for Christianity is pretty high up there for me. For whatever reason, it's one of the few evidences that really resonates with me.Azurestone said:You would? Interesting.Asteriktos said:Yes, I would. Also, it's possible that they believed something to be true, without it actually being true.Azurestone said:I think it's interesting that the twelve Apostles (who saw Jesus), willingly died in his name, a historically verifiable fact. Would you willingly die for something you knew was false?
No, I think your right. For some reason I always remain optimistic about topics I personally find fascinating. Sum it to selfish desire for interesting dialogue...GiC said:I think it's just that this issue has been discussed so much recently, people come here already in polemics mode. That's why I went to the trouble of tagging the threads on the issue for him, I'd be really surprised if this thread turned into a productive discussion (few on this subject ever do, everyone's just too defensive).NorthernPines said:I realize sometimes we get insincere people coming here just trying to argue about God's existence but it feels to me that too many people are jumping on this new poster here and that may be a bit unfounded at the moment. Again I realize we've got a long history of people coming here to just to bash Christianity, and perhaps this person is the same however I say let's try and give him a bit of a break, just for a short time and see what pans out. If he is sincere going the Lee Strobel route may or may not be the best method of discussion. Again, it might be, I don't know. I understand that this feels like the same old same old, but it may not be either.
NP
I agree that there are a few reasons why someone may be willing to die for a lie, but getting 10 Apostles (or 11), plus 70 other apostles, to die for a lie would be quite a stretch, especially considering that their deaths were not for the protection of someone else (as in your example, which would likely be the only reason I'd be willing to die for a lie).Asteriktos said:Well, let me clarify, there would have to be something much more important at stake. For example, I'd die for a lie if I thought it would save (immediately or eventually) a lot of people's lives, or perhaps just a few lives if they were ones special to me (e.g. my daughters). Now admittedly, given what we know about Chrisitanity, I think fitting that approach into the Christian situation would be difficult... but not necessarily impossible. I guess it would depend on who was lying, what they were lying about, how much was at stake, etc. Now, having said that, I have to admit that I'm sort of playing devil's advocate here. Of the various evidences people use for Christianity, this one about early believers dying for Christianity is pretty high up there for me. For whatever reason, it's one of the few evidences that really resonates with me.
To answer your first question: N.T. Wright has written a great book called The Resurrection of the Son of God. That's probably one of the best easy resources out there to find if you're into reading books. In the book, Wright covers as many bases that he can in order to show the historical context and argument for the resurrection of Jesus. The length (over 800 pages) is well worth it if you're absolutely serious about finding out if Christianity is true. Also, I would recommend browsing through articles on Tektonics and Christian Think Tank.Zeus12 said:GIC, thanks for the tag. I should note that I don't necessarily consider myself an Atheist nor do I deny the existence of God... I just haven't found anything that has convinced me to believe (at least not yet).
So in short, you believe in God because there is great historical evidence of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I know the Bible describes this resurrection, but where else can I find this evidence? I have been hesitant to believe the Adam & Eve story, and thus the significance of Jesus's resurrection, because of the historical evidence of human evolution.I believe God exists because of Jesus Christ, His resurrection, and the great historical evidence for it.
I think myth can be a powerful thing, especially for people of that age. We moderns tend to look at myths with condescension, but the ancients probably were more sophisticated in that they would look for important truths embedded in the tales. Would they have died for such truth-full myths? I don't know. I doubt it. I only keep in mind as a possibility... much like the delusion hypothesis, which I don't consider likely, but I keep in mind.Fr. George said:I agree that there are a few reasons why someone may be willing to die for a lie, but getting 10 Apostles (or 11), plus 70 other apostles, to die for a lie would be quite a stretch, especially considering that their deaths were not for the protection of someone else (as in your example, which would likely be the only reason I'd be willing to die for a lie).
I think it is interesting as well, but couldn't someone also argue that 39 Heaven's Gate cult members willingly killed themselves in order to 'catch a ride' on the Hale-Bopp comet? They didn't believe that what they died for was false either.Azurestone said:I think it's interesting that the twelve Apostles (who saw Jesus), willingly died in his name, a historically verifiable fact. Would you willingly die for something you knew was false?
The possibility is small though, considering that so many witnesses of the Resurrection died or suffered on account of it, not just followers of the witnesses (which I would consider at this point possibly a "myth" or "rumor" not first-hand witnesses), but the witnesses themselves, making an example of bravery for more Christians to explode in increase.Asteriktos said:I think myth can be a powerful thing, especially for people of that age. We moderns tend to look at myths with condescension, but the ancients probably were more sophisticated in that they would look for important truths embedded in the tales. Would they have died for such truth-full myths? I don't know. I doubt it. I only keep in mind as a possibility... much like the delusion hypothesis, which I don't consider likely, but I keep in mind.Fr. George said:I agree that there are a few reasons why someone may be willing to die for a lie, but getting 10 Apostles (or 11), plus 70 other apostles, to die for a lie would be quite a stretch, especially considering that their deaths were not for the protection of someone else (as in your example, which would likely be the only reason I'd be willing to die for a lie).
The disciples of Jesus were in a completely different situation. They preached that Jesus died a shameful death and rose again from the grave. Because of their persecutions they had literally nothing material to gain. They also did nearly every wrong thing in the book at the time to try and start a new religion (using women as witnesses, for example). Also, they didn't try to kill themselves like the Heaven's Gates members. The Heavens Gates cult pretty much ended when they committed mass suicide. Christianity, if it was false, would have never lasted out of the 1st Century and certainly not the 2nd.I think it is interesting as well, but couldn't someone also argue that 39 Heaven's Gate cult members willingly killed themselves in order to 'catch a ride' on the Hale-Bopp comet? They didn't believe that what they died for was false either.
I wouldn't go so far as to say they are contradictory, but certainly they aren't the same.ozgeorge said:Aren't "being convinced by evidence" and "believing" two contradictory things?Zeus12 said:I just haven't found anything that has convinced me to believe (at least not yet).
I would go one step further and say that Orthodoxy and concision are oxymorons...NorthernPines said:If you want concise replies, you're probably barking up the wrong tree. I mean, aren't Orthodoxy and "concise" replies oxymorons? lol!
Problem is that there was no verification that a UFO would be on that comet. They could have easily looked at a telescope.Cognomen said:I think it is interesting as well, but couldn't someone also argue that 39 Heaven's Gate cult members willingly killed themselves in order to 'catch a ride' on the Hale-Bopp comet? They didn't believe that what they died for was false either.
The Apostles certainly seem to say something like this, i.e., that they bear witness to something which they experienced directly (that is, the Person of Christ.) However, the Apostle John goes on to say that the reason they are telling us is so that we too may experience Him. Important to note is that the word "fellowship" in the original is "Koinonia" ("Communion"):Aposphet said:Problem is that there was no verification that a UFO would be on that comet. They could have easily looked at a telescope.Cognomen said:I think it is interesting as well, but couldn't someone also argue that 39 Heaven's Gate cult members willingly killed themselves in order to 'catch a ride' on the Hale-Bopp comet? They didn't believe that what they died for was false either.
No the Resurrection of Christ is completley different all together. They witnessed the Risen Christ, alive again rather than believing something that was to come.
Thank you for that reminder. Many of us spend too much time on trying to prove it happened sometimes on the expense of experiencing it.ozgeorge said:The Apostles certainly seem to say something like this, i.e., that they bear witness to something which they experienced directly (that is, the Person of Christ.) However, the Apostle John goes on to say that the reason they are telling us is so that we too may experience Him. Important to note is that the word "fellowship" in the original is "Koinonia" ("Communion"):Aposphet said:Problem is that there was no verification that a UFO would be on that comet. They could have easily looked at a telescope.Cognomen said:I think it is interesting as well, but couldn't someone also argue that 39 Heaven's Gate cult members willingly killed themselves in order to 'catch a ride' on the Hale-Bopp comet? They didn't believe that what they died for was false either.
No the Resurrection of Christ is completley different all together. They witnessed the Risen Christ, alive again rather than believing something that was to come.
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— that which we have seen and heard we declare to you that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. And these things we write to you that your joy may be full." (1John 1:1-3)
Is this your big hang-up about Christianity? You mention it an awful lot. Last I checked, Young Earth, Seven-Day Creationism is not an ecumenical dogma of the Orthodox Church. If it is...I'm anathema!Zeus12 said:This is because the whole Big Bang theory—from the beginning to how Earth was formed—makes more sense to me than "The Creation" listed in Genesis.