So I don't believe in God...

Jetavan

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TheJackel said:
Jetavan said:
TheJackel said:
Jetavan said:
TheJackel said:
All you are proving here is that you really have nothing to demonstrate, show, argue with, and substantiate..  
Are you a pantheist?
I used to be a Christian for about 22 years.. I became a Pantheist after I learned a lot more about Christianity..  However, those 3 questions I asked pretty much demonstrated that even Pantheism is really just nonsense..
Would you say that consciousness is entirely a product of matter?
It doesn't change the facts I presented here regarding the Pagan origins of your religion.
The "pagan" origins are well-known. Most definitions of "pagan" define it as a religion that is neither Jewish, Christian, nor Muslim. Since Judaism (i.e., the Mosaic revelation), Christianity (the Nazarene revelation), and Islam (the Qurayshan revelation) appeared roughly around 1200 BCE, 30 CE, and 640 CE, then obviously these religions had "origins" in "pagan" religions, since they all trace themselves back to Abraham, who -- not being Jewish, Christian, or Muslim -- was necessarily "pagan".
 

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Jetavan said:
TheJackel said:
Jetavan said:
TheJackel said:
Jetavan said:
TheJackel said:
All you are proving here is that you really have nothing to demonstrate, show, argue with, and substantiate..  
Are you a pantheist?
I used to be a Christian for about 22 years.. I became a Pantheist after I learned a lot more about Christianity..  However, those 3 questions I asked pretty much demonstrated that even Pantheism is really just nonsense..
Would you say that consciousness is entirely a product of matter?
It doesn't change the facts I presented here regarding the Pagan origins of your religion.
The "pagan" origins are well-known. Most definitions of "pagan" define it as a religion that is neither Jewish, Christian, nor Muslim. Since Judaism (i.e., the Mosaic revelation), Christianity (the Nazarene revelation), and Islam (the Qurayshan revelation) appeared roughly around 1200 BCE, 30 CE, and 640 CE, then obviously these religions had "origins" in "pagan" religions, since they all trace themselves back to Abraham, who -- not being Jewish, Christian, or Muslim -- was necessarily "pagan".
That is without a doubt wrong.. They do not trace back to Abraham.. In fact, you can't find El Shaddai traced back the 3rd milenium, and the GOD EL and Shaddai emerged through different paths entirely. And you wont find the Egyptian GOD Yah, or the Egyptian GOD's at all traced back to Abraham either.. Your claim is erroneous in that respect. But yes Christianity is entirely Pagan, and it comes from it's polytheistic mythological roots to which includes much of it from the Egyptians. It's not any less of a myth in usupred monotheistic form than the polytheism it came from..  Please also give us citation showing religion itself evolving out of the Ammorite GOD Shaddai... No? How about Yahweh? No? .. Sorry I can't take that argument seriously.. 

And as far as mainstream anthropology and archeology is concerned, religion evolved out of Africa that came up through the Nile and out through Egypt ect..
 

Jetavan

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TheJackel said:
Jetavan said:
TheJackel said:
Jetavan said:
TheJackel said:
Jetavan said:
TheJackel said:
All you are proving here is that you really have nothing to demonstrate, show, argue with, and substantiate..  
Are you a pantheist?
I used to be a Christian for about 22 years.. I became a Pantheist after I learned a lot more about Christianity..  However, those 3 questions I asked pretty much demonstrated that even Pantheism is really just nonsense..
Would you say that consciousness is entirely a product of matter?
It doesn't change the facts I presented here regarding the Pagan origins of your religion.
The "pagan" origins are well-known. Most definitions of "pagan" define it as a religion that is neither Jewish, Christian, nor Muslim. Since Judaism (i.e., the Mosaic revelation), Christianity (the Nazarene revelation), and Islam (the Qurayshan revelation) appeared roughly around 1200 BCE, 30 CE, and 640 CE, then obviously these religions had "origins" in "pagan" religions, since they all trace themselves back to Abraham, who -- not being Jewish, Christian, or Muslim -- was necessarily "pagan".
Wrong.. They do not trace back to Abraham lol.. In fact, you can't find El Shaddai traced back the 3rd milenium, and the GOD EL and Shaddai emerged through different paths entirely. And you wont find the Egyptian GOD Yah, or the Egyptian GOD's at all traced back to Abraham either.. Your claim is erroneous in that respect. But yes Christianity is entirely Pagan, and it comes from it's polytheistic mythological roots. It's not any less of a myth in usupred monotheistic form and than the polytheism..  Please also give us citation showing religion itself evolving out of the Ammorite GOD Shaddai... No? How about Yahweh? No? .. Sorry I can't take that argument seriously..
Would you not agree that these three religions trace themselves back to Abraham: that is (whether it is historically accurate or not), these three religions see themselves as originating, in a deep sense, with Abraham, that Abraham is a founding figure in their theologies?
 

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Aindriú said:
Tell us about Elohim.
That's still Cannanite / Amorite.. Making El Shaddia ones Elohim also had nothing to do with Yahweh.. Abraham doesn't even mention Yahweh. And the the Ammorite Deity was also referred to as the usurper.. So taking on the title EL Shaddai is rather expected from the Amorites.. Hence, they equated 'EL" with Shaddai..  But when you see the "EL" you are dealing with the Canaanite deity / Pantheon.

 The word is identical to the usual plural of el meaning gods or magistrates, and is cognate to the 'l-h-m found in Ugaritic, where it is used for the pantheon of Canaanite gods, the children of El and conventionally vocalized as "Elohim".
You won't find that term used outside the EL pantheon unless it's being usurped, or when someone is trying to equate their deity to that of "EL", or as one of the sons of "EL". And "EL" predates the god of Abraham and goes all the way back to the Eblas in the 3rd millennium.... And there is a link between EL and the Egyptian GOD Ptah..

http://books.google.com/books?id=bJqwWRDOMgEC&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=Canaanite+EL+linked+to+the+Egyptian+god+Ptah&source=bl&ots=fdbOk5_JJV&sig=z4JrPPyQ99dLSelVhTT4QQSJiTA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tWDNUMLOLMrN0AGhw4GYBA&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Canaanite%20EL%20linked%20to%20the%20Egyptian%20god%20Ptah&f=false

Also supported here:
   A proto-Sinaitic mine inscription reads ʼlḏ‘lm understood to be vocalized as ʼil ḏū ‘ôlmi, 'ʼĒl Eternal' or 'God Eternal'. The Egyptian god Ptah is given the title ḏū gitti 'Lord of Gath' in a prism from Lachish which has on its opposite face the name of Amenhotep II (c. 1435–1420 BCE) The title ḏū gitti is also found in Serābitṭ text 353. Cross (1973, p. 19) points out that Ptah is often called the lord (or one) of eternity and thinks it may be this identification of ʼĒl with Ptah that lead to the epithet ’olam 'eternal' being applied to ʼĒl so early and so consistently.[1]

       ^ Wyatt 2002, p. 43.

It's also important to note that Ptah was not Yah, or Yahweh as separete deities.. Ptah was not a moon GOD. However, if anything, it would traced back to the Egyptians and not Abraham.. If anything, Abraham merely jumped on the bandwagon regardless if he was a fictional or real historical figure.. It doesn't begin with "Abraham" if you go by the real world, main stream anthropology, Egyptology, and archeology ect..  
 

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TheJackel said:
Aindriú said:
Tell us about Elohim.
That's still Cannanite / Amorite.. Making El Shaddia ones Elohim also had nothing to do with Yahweh.. Abraham doesn't even mention Yahweh. And the the Ammorite Deity was also referred to as the usurper.. So taking on the title EL Shaddai is rather expected from the Amorites.. Hence, they equated 'EL" with Shaddai..  But when you see the "EL" you are dealing with the Canaanite deity / Pantheon.
Elohim is the word used by Moses to describe God in the Pentateuch, specifically Genesis. Why then would we expect 'Abraham' to use YHWH when Moses, as the narrator, uses Elohim?
 

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Aindriú said:
TheJackel said:
Aindriú said:
Tell us about Elohim.
That's still Cannanite / Amorite.. Making El Shaddia ones Elohim also had nothing to do with Yahweh.. Abraham doesn't even mention Yahweh. And the the Ammorite Deity was also referred to as the usurper.. So taking on the title EL Shaddai is rather expected from the Amorites.. Hence, they equated 'EL" with Shaddai..  But when you see the "EL" you are dealing with the Canaanite deity / Pantheon.
Elohim is the word used by Moses to describe God in the Pentateuch, specifically Genesis. Why then would we expect 'Abraham' to use YHWH when Moses, as the narrator, uses Elohim?
So what. We already know the Yahwist cult movement was attempting to usurp the Canaanite Pantheon.. Of course he's going to use it.. And Mosses btw is an Egyptian name. And you won't find Abraham mentioning Yahweh in Genesis.. It's interesting that Yahweh doesn't show up until Exodus.. And we also must remember that the bible was never actually a book. .. You do realize the bible has been heavily edited right?  I gave you one example regarding the dead sea scrolls vs the Duet.. The only way the bible makes sense is if you look at the common practice of usurping...  You can't take the bible to which has been edited to no end as your main source for this subject.  This is why I provided many other sources regarding the subject and Yahweh.  Yahweh and EL are entirely different GODS entirely..  Yawhists equated Yahweh to EL in order to usurp EL.. There is even further evidence of this here:

Giving the Evidence of Yahweh being a moon GOD deriving likely originally from the Egyptian moon GOD YAH, lets begin with the direct evidence of Yahweh being equated with EL in regards to EL's wife Asherah and then move on from there.: Asherah:

* http://www.scribd.com/doc/36144940/Asherah-Consort-of-Yahweh-New-Evidence-From-Kuntillet-Ajrud * http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1357073?uid=3739696&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101168053907

Abstract:
    Blessed be Uriyahu by Yahweh. For from his enemies by his Asherah he has saved him.
Well, we know for a fact that Asherah was EL's wife, and that the Israelite / Canaanites worshiped them as king and queen of heaven. They had a special love for Ahserah. Odd indeed to see Yahweh with EL's wife, but we may yet unravel that mystery here as the evidence suggests in this already long discussion. This was during when strict yahwists started to have strong influence, and where Yahwism considered all other GODs as false idols to which included Asherah. And they needed to find a means to replace these GOD's, so the classic method typical of taking ones wife is through the conquering and the taking over another mans house hold.  You see this very example in the mythology and even when mosses tells his men to take the women of those he conquered for their wives. This is common in the history of how usurping a GOD, and appears this was used to equate Yahweh with EL.  Professor Bill Dever, discusses archaeological evidence for Asherah as the consort of Yahweh:
    Asherah was, of course, finally driven underground by the reformist parties that :edited the Hebrew Bible. In its final form she is written out of the text. Hence, she :disappeared and all her cult imagery with her when Jewish monotheism at last :triumphed in the period after the Israelites returned from the Babylonian exile. :But Asherah was once alive and well; modern archaeology has in fact resurrected :her. Her "houses," now vacant, were once occupied. Here she was "at home" for :many of the masses in ancient Israel.

- William Dever -
And of course this citation here if you need it:
    Asherah was worshipped in ancient Israel as the consort of El and in Judah as the consort of Yahweh and Queen of Heaven (the Hebrews baked small cakes for her festival):[11]

    "Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger." [12]

    "... to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem ..."[13]

    ^ William G. Dever, "Did God Have a Wife?" (Eerdmans, ISBN 0-8028-2852-3,2005) - see reviews of this book by Patrick D. Miller, Yairah Amit.
    ^ Jeremiah 7:17–18
    ^ Jeremiah 44:17
It gets worse because "EL" was actually never a generic term for "GOD".. It was always in reference to the Canaanite Pantheon family of the GOD EL and his sons.. Any use of of EL is in direct relation to EL himself and his sons. And where Christians, and wickipedia get the assertion that it
"could have been a generic term"
was from this Christian apologetic source:
    ^Barrs, Jerram (Spring 2006). http://covenantseminary.edu/worldwide/en/CC310/CC310_T_21.html">"Audio Transcription for Lesson 21: Apologetics & Communication" (PDF, 0.1 MB).

    Abstract:
    El or Elohim, God, the Mighty One, the Great One, could be used of any of the other gods worshipped by the people around Israel. It could be used of Baal or of Moloch.
Now we know how dishonest Christian apologetics are, and this falls right into it because nowhere is "EL" ever used outside the Canaanite/Israelite family Pantheon.. You must remember this is a family structured Pantheon.. And Baal and Moloch are apart of the Canaanite Pantheon as sons of EL.  Using EL's name in generic form by the Cannanites / Israelites would have been using their GOD's name in vain, or anyone else using it in that context would be to try and usurp him and gain his power or power over him. Hence, that name was NEVER used in generic format until the Yahwists began to usurp the pantheon! The source above can not list "EL" in conjunction with GOD's that were not of the El Pantheon, and he knows it..

The Oxford Companion to World Mythology states:


If El was the high god of Abraham - Elohim, the prototype of Yahveh - Asherah was his wife, and there are archeological indications that she was perceived as such before she was in effect 'divorced' in the context of emerging Judaism of the 7th century BCE. (See 2 Kings 23:15)".

^ Leeming, David (2005). The Oxford Companion to World Mythology. New York, NY: Oxford University Press. pp. 118. ISBN 978-0-19-515669-0. LCCN 2005014216. OCLC 60492027.
Well, we know that Abraham only merely made EL Shaddai his Elohim, and that hes was and Amorite. Yahweh as state before had nothing to do with El Shaddai and Abraham was not a Yahwist, and nor did he worship a moon god.. So the Question remains as to why is Yahweh being equated to the Canaanite GOD EL, and usurping the entire Pantheon into his persona? The following really shows merit of this question:

    Before El's revelation with the name of Yahweh, it is said in Genesis 14:18–20 that Abraham accepted the blessing of El, when Melchizedek, the king of Salem and high priest of its deity El Elyon blessed him.[19] One scholarly position is that the identification of Yahweh with Ēl is late, that Yahweh was earlier thought of as only one of many gods, and not normally identified with Ēl.

    ^Coogan, Michael David (2009). A Brief Introduction to the Old Testament. New York, NY: Oxford University Press. pp. 74. ISBN 978-0-19-533272-8. LCCN 2008034190. OCLC 243545942.
And we now know that when trace the origin of Yahweh back to the Egyptian moon GOD, and the Sumerian mood god to which they likely also usurped.. So unless you can show the Dictionary I provided and the evidence provided to be wrong, It's quite clear of the usurping of the EL Pantheon. But I have other sources that back me up:

And we of course have these sources as well to which back up much of what I already discussed above:
    Israel inherited polytheism from late first-millennium Canaan, and Canaanite religion in turn had its roots in the religion of second-millennium Ugarit. In the 2nd millennium, polytheism was expressed through the concepts of the Divine Council and the divine family, a single entity with four levels: the chief god and his wife (El and Asherah); the seventy divine children or "stars of El" (including Baal, Astarte, Anat, probably Resheph, as well as the sun-goddess Shapshu and the moon-god Yerak); the head helper of the divine household, Kothar wa-Hasis; and the servants of the divine household, including the messenger-gods who would later appear as the "angels" of the Hebrew Bible.

Between the eighth to the sixth centuries El became identified with Yahweh, Yahweh-El became the husband of the goddess Asherah, and the other gods and the divine messengers gradually became mere expressions of Yahweh's power. Yahweh is cast in the role of the Divine King ruling over all the other deities, as in Psalm 29:2, where the "sons of God" are called upon to worship Yahweh; and as Ezekiel 8-10 suggests, the Temple itself became Yahweh's palace, populated by those in his retinue.

^ a b Karel van der Toorn, editor, "Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible" (second edition, Eerdmans, 1999)
^ Robert Karl Gnuse, "No Other Gods: Emergent Monotheism in Israel" (Sheffield Academic Press, 1997)
^ Meindert Dijkstra, "El the God of Israel, Israel the People of YHWH: On the Origins of Ancient Israelite Yahwism" (in "Only One God? Monotheism in Ancient Israel and the Veneration of the Goddess Asherah", ed. Bob Becking, Sheffield Academic Press, 2001)
^ Meindert Djikstra, "I have Blessed you by Yahweh of Samaria and his Asherah: Texts with Religious Elements from the Soil Archive of Ancient Israel" (in "Only One God? Monotheism in Ancient Israel and the Veneration of the Goddess Asherah", ed. Bob Beckering, Sheffield Academic Press, 2001)
^ Karel van der Toorn, "Goddesses in Early Israelite Religion in Ancient Goddesses: the Myths and the Evidence" (editors Lucy Goodison and Christine Morris, University of Wisconsin Press, 1998)
 

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::)

So this is where all those bad specials on the History Channel come from?
 

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EVERYTHING in the Bible has a hidden, pagan meaning. At least, that's what the Zeitgeist missionaries want you to believe.
 

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biro said:
::)

So this is where all those bad specials on the History Channel come from?
Sorry, Egyptologists like William Dever are not where you get bad History channel documentaries from.  How about you actually provide an actual argument with citation.. Oh that's right, we can't expect you to do that anymore then asking a Flat Earther to give us a navigable with an accurate coordinate system and scale.. It's like trying to pull your own tooth out with a wrench because you aren't interested in honest discourse. But hey, if it makes you feel better to need that sort of dishonest argument to keep the pillars of faith standing.. After all, reality denial is pretty typical behavior when dealing with religion, or cults ect. .. But in this discussion, your comment is essentially worthless academically...
 

Cyrillic

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I shouldn't really be commenting in this troll thread, but I'll just leave this here:

"Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger. (Jeremiah 7:17-18)"

 

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Cyrillic said:
EVERYTHING in the Bible has a hidden, pagan meaning. At least, that's what the Zeitgeist missionaries want you to believe.
This has nothing to do with Zeitgeist.  This is just stating facts about your religion.. Feel free to cite me a Hebrew and hieroglyphic dictionary that proves otherwise for starters.. Now that would be impressive vs trying to tag this to some zeitgeist.  Btw, zeitgeist here is a false equivocation, and you would literally need to paint mainstream archeology, anthropology, or even Egyptology as some sort conspiracy while being entirely and woefully ignorant of the dynamics of ancient religion and how culturally intertwined that region of the world was.   But feel free to provide me sources and citations..  

Btw, zeitgeist is specifically about this:

Hegel believed that art reflected, by its very nature, the time of the culture in which it is created. Culture and art are inextricable because an individual artist is a product of his or her time and therefore brings that culture to any given work of art. Furthermore, he believed that in the modern world it was impossible to produce classical art, which he believed represented a "free and ethical culture"
If I were to have made that argument, I would have told you Christianity could never develop, or that classical art in the modern world would be impossible to produce. I've made no such argument. And there are a lot of things wrong in the Zeitgeist movies. However, This isn't about creativity, or art ect.. This is about what we know about the history of your religion..  However the writers of the bible weren't exactly original in their writings, beliefs, oral traditions ect.. But that doesn't prevent them from making classical art or influencing the continued development of..
 

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TheJackel said:
1. What is GOD without existence (this includes all definitions)
2. If Existence is GOD, what in and "OF EXISTENCE" are we to not to consider GOD?
3. If Existence is not GOD, What in and "OF EXISTENCE" are we to consider as GOD?
God is above existence. Hyperousios as St. Dionysius the Areopagite called it. The only thing that's moot is your silly syllogism.
 

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Cyrillic said:
I shouldn't really be commenting in this troll thread, but I'll just leave this here:

"Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger. (Jeremiah 7:17-18)"
"Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger.  (Jeremiah 7:17-18)
Again not unexpected when dealing with a yahwist monotheistic movement.. The Nova broadcast NOVA: The Bible's Buried Secrets at: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/bibles-buried-secrets.html

was an amalgamation of the components that are described at:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/bible/

which is also noted in the book "No Other Gods: Emergent Monotheism in Israel Page 82" to which on the same page also states Yahweh was equated with "EL".. And that had to be done to become GOD of Israel, and the book goes even much deeper into the process of usurping the Pantheon into the persona of Yahweh. And if you don't know, that book is written by
   Robert Gnuse is the James C. Carter, S.J./Bank One Distinguished Professor of the Humanities in the Religious Studies Department. He received his Ph.D. from Vanderbilt University in the area of Old Testament, and he is the author of 12 books and approximately 80 articles in the field of biblical studies.
And who cites Henry William Frederick Saggs:
   PhD degree by the School of Oriental and African Studies in London in 1953 and became Lecturer in Akkadian. By the mid-1960s, Saggs's many publications on Akkadian texts, combined with his skill in other Semitic languages made him one of the leading international scholars in the field. He was asked in 1966 to take the Chair of Semitic Languages in University College, Cardiff and was Professor from 1966 to 198
 

Cyrillic

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It's quite obvious that Judaism was always monotheistic but that some Jews adopted heathenish practices from the people around them which the prophets condemned. Even pagan historians like Tacitus wrote that Judaism was monotheistic from the very beginning.
 

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Information is my GOD. With information overlord I am able to connect with my GOD by infosis.
 

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God is above existence. Hyperousios as St. Dionysius the Areopagite called it. The only thing that's moot is your silly syllogism.
You can't claim something is above existence while trying to beg everyone it's in and of existence, or exists.. It's an incoherent argument.. But hey if you think it's silly syllogism, show us a god without needing existence as that should be a fun exercise lol.  It's as dumb of an argument as saying GOD is out side existence, and well Atheists agree that your GOD is not in existence. Trying to defect to the other side of the debate to try and win the debate is hilariously a bad argument.. You can believe that if you want to, but any atheist is going to serious laugh at that argument.. You might want to look up what a self-refuting argument is..  You can't even have a religion, or even the idea of the concept of GOD without existence.
 

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Cyrillic said:
It's quite obvious that Judaism was always monotheistic but that some Jews adopted heathenish practices from the people around them which the prophets condemned. Even pagan historians like Tacitus wrote that Judaism was monotheistic from the very beginning.
Judaism comes from the yahwist cult movement but your claim is erroneous.. And not all Yahwists were monotheistic as the worship of Asherah as Yahweh's consort continued on for quite some time. So you're wrong.. Early Judaism simply made Yahweh their main GOD of worship, but a good number of them were still polytheistic. You can say Judaism as it is today was forged from strict yahwist monotheism that usurped the Canaanite Pantheon. Howev strict monotheistic Yahwism almost went extinct until the Second Isaiah. If it wasn't for the second Isaih and that movement, Judaism probably wouldn't even exist today.  It's a lot more complicated that you think it is.  
 

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There's no possible way that I could read this entire three from the beginning, and there's no way I could read all the information that you have provided, but from what I have seen I can't tell that anything provided has anything to do with the Christian Faith? Is there something I'm missing?
 
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