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Something for the "Green" Patriarch to Ponder...

Heracleides

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Complete article here: Mankind is More Than the Janitor of Planet Earth

“Mankind is more than the janitor of planet Earth,” writes Brendan O’Neill. “I am avowedly atheist. But listening to the bishops’ drab, eco-pious Christmas sermons, I couldn’t help thinking: ‘Bring back God!’”

Read that article and then compare with the EP's own eco-nonsense (yes, I said nonsense):

"Our Patriarchate, which symbolically celebrates September 1st, the beginning of the Ecclesiastical year, as the Day of Creation, today unites its voice with the environmentally sensitive and active people and institutions throughout this earth, regardless of religious or political beliefs."

Complete Patriarchial statement here: Message of His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew on World Environment Day (5 June 2008)
.
 

Heracleides

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ytterbiumanalyst said:
So our bishops should hold the same opinions on matters of faith that a random atheist holds. Riiiight.
And since you posted your insightful comment one minute after I started the thread I am sure you've actually read both articles.  ::)

Why is it that I have more respect for some people, atheists or not, than nice people such as yourself.


Edit: Added appropriate smilely
 You didn't need to call him (or anyone else here) an "intellectual midget."  Attacking his argument: good.  Attacking his person: not good.  I know you know this, so I'm not going to waste more of your time.  This warning will last only two weeks, and it's only meant as a reminder to be as determined and relentless as you want to be when going after positions and arguments, but not in attacking people.

As always, if you feel that this warning is in error, please PM Fr. Chris.

- Cleveland, Global Moderator
 

Heracleides

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Heracleides said:
ytterbiumanalyst said:
So our bishops should hold the same opinions on matters of faith that a random atheist holds. Riiiight.
And since you posted your insightful comment one minute after I started the thread I am sure you've actually read both articles.  ::)

Why is it that I have more respect for some people, atheists or not, than nice people such as yourself.


Edit: Added appropriate smilely
 You didn't need to call him (or anyone else here) an "intellectual midget."  Attacking his argument: good.  Attacking his person: not good.  I know you know this, so I'm not going to waste more of your time.  This warning will last only two weeks, and it's only meant as a reminder to be as determined and relentless as you want to be when going after positions and arguments, but not in attacking people.

As always, if you feel that this warning is in error, please PM Fr. Chris.

- Cleveland, Global Moderator
Yes indeed, his contribution, er, excuse me - position and argument, was of such depth not to mention intellectually insightful I am aghast as to how could I have missed it.  My sincerest apologies Ytter.  ::)

As for your editing my observation of his intellectual prowess as expressed in his contribution, let me clarify - I do not consider him to be a "nice person" - but it is reassuring to see you good 'ole boys covering each others backs.  :-*
 

Fr. George

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I do say, the EP's sermon (on an "ecological" day, not on a Feastday, mind you), is a far cry from what O'Neil heard from Canterbury Cathedral; they are hardly the same.  O'Neil is critical of the loss of focus and change in priority which was so exemplified by a Christmas sermon which didn't feature much of Christmas (and none of the Bible).  Meanwhile the EP (and other Orthodox hierarchs) still publishes sermons and encyclical letters on the feastdays that focus on the Holy Day itself.

What the EP publishes regarding the environment is notable in that it is more widely publicized than anything else (He's probably put out enough non-environment encyclical letters over the years to more than fill a book larger than his recently published one on the environment); however, it doesn't overshadow the fact that most of his sermons and encyclical letters are topical and use the scripture and Fathers.

But, the article is a good harbinger of what could come, if one were to over-adopt the environmentalist position.  Sometimes the best (or most poignant) criticism comes from skeptical outsiders...
 

PeterTheAleut

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Heracleides said:
Complete article here: Mankind is More Than the Janitor of Planet Earth

“Mankind is more than the janitor of planet Earth,” writes Brendan O’Neill. “I am avowedly atheist. But listening to the bishops’ drab, eco-pious Christmas sermons, I couldn’t help thinking: ‘Bring back God!’”

Read that article and then compare with the EP's own eco-nonsense (yes, I said nonsense):

"Our Patriarchate, which symbolically celebrates September 1st, the beginning of the Ecclesiastical year, as the Day of Creation, today unites its voice with the environmentally sensitive and active people and institutions throughout this earth, regardless of religious or political beliefs."

Complete Patriarchial statement here: Message of His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew on World Environment Day (5 June 2008)
.
So, if we are to take seriously the Orthodox belief that Christ came to redeem the entire cosmos and not just fallen humanity, and if we are to take seriously what our sacramental world view means regarding our stewardship of creation, this is the same as kowtowing to an anti-Christian naturalistic agenda?  ::)
 

Pravoslavbob

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Heracleides said:
Read that article and then compare with the EP's own eco-nonsense (yes, I said nonsense):
I find absolutely nothing to quibble with in terms of the declaration of his Holiness.  Why you have an axe to grind with him here is simply beyond me.  I find it disturbing that you would take issue with this declaration of his, which does make reference to God's plan for us to be stewards of creation and how we have abandoned this office.  And I also find it disturbing that there appear to be "conservative" Christians, particularly in the United States, that agree with your stance (though more and more are actually opposed to it).

PeterTheAleut said:
So, if we are to take seriously the Orthodox belief that Christ came to redeem the entire cosmos and not just fallen humanity, and if we are to take seriously what our sacramental world view means regarding our stewardship of creation, this is the same as kowtowing to an anti-Christian naturalistic agenda?  ::)
My thoughts exactly.
 

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Pravoslavbob said:
I find absolutely nothing to quibble with in terms of the declaration of his Holiness.  Why you have an axe to grind with him here is simply beyond me.  I find it disturbing that you would take issue with this declaration of his, which does make reference to God's plan for us to be stewards of creation and how we have abandoned this office.  And I also find it disturbing that there appear to be "conservative" Christians, particularly in the United States, that agree with your stance (though more and more are actually opposed to it).
 

Well done Bob!!!  Excellent post.
 

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I understand that this environmental topic has been added to the agenda for our next, long-awaited General Synod. I seriously question the need, or purpose of that given other, more pressing issues needing resolution.
 

ozgeorge

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Αριστοκλής said:
I understand that this environmental topic has been added to the agenda for our next, long-awaited General Synod. I seriously question the need, or purpose of that given other, more pressing issues needing resolution.
I think it's an issue of Salvation. The Church is meant to Santcify the entire Cosmos, and deliver it from the effects of the Fall, not just human beings. For example, we Sanctify the depths of the sea on Theophany, and restore the element of water to it's Created, prelapsarian nature- so there is nothing in the Cosmos which is beyond the reach of the Church. And on the contrary, are told that at the Day of Judgement, Our Lord will "διαφθειραι τους διαφθειροντας την γην" ("destroy those who destroy the Earth") (Apocalypse 11:18).
 

SouthSerb99

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Αριστοκλής said:
I understand that this environmental topic has been added to the agenda for our next, long-awaited General Synod. I seriously question the need, or purpose of that given other, more pressing issues needing resolution.
Listen, I'd much rather the Synod assemble an army and try to take back Constantinople, but that ain't gonna happen any time soon, so I don't see anything wrong with some good old fashioned tree hugging.
 

ytterbiumanalyst

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Pravoslavbob said:
Heracleides said:
Read that article and then compare with the EP's own eco-nonsense (yes, I said nonsense):
I find absolutely nothing to quibble with in terms of the declaration of his Holiness.  Why you have an axe to grind with him here is simply beyond me.  I find it disturbing that you would take issue with this declaration of his, which does make reference to God's plan for us to be stewards of creation and how we have abandoned this office.  And I also find it disturbing that there appear to be "conservative" Christians, particularly in the United States, that agree with your stance (though more and more are actually opposed to it).
Well said.
 

Aristocles

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ozgeorge said:
Αριστοκλής said:
I understand that this environmental topic has been added to the agenda for our next, long-awaited General Synod. I seriously question the need, or purpose of that given other, more pressing issues needing resolution.
I think it's an issue of Salvation. The Church is meant to Santcify the entire Cosmos, and deliver it from the effects of the Fall, not just human beings. For example, we Sanctify the depths of the sea on Theophany, and restore the element of water to it's Created, prelapsarian nature- so there is nothing in the Cosmos which is beyond the reach of the Church. And on the contrary, are told that at the Day of Judgement, Our Lord will "διαφθειραι τους διαφθειροντας την γην" ("destroy those who destroy the Earth") (Apocalypse 11:18).
Just so, and a point I've made here many times before about the EP. I still question the need of this highly politicized issue on the agenda of the first synod in 670 or 1200 years (depending on which councils one counts).
 

PeterTheAleut

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Αριστοκλής said:
ozgeorge said:
Αριστοκλής said:
I understand that this environmental topic has been added to the agenda for our next, long-awaited General Synod. I seriously question the need, or purpose of that given other, more pressing issues needing resolution.
I think it's an issue of Salvation. The Church is meant to Santcify the entire Cosmos, and deliver it from the effects of the Fall, not just human beings. For example, we Sanctify the depths of the sea on Theophany, and restore the element of water to it's Created, prelapsarian nature- so there is nothing in the Cosmos which is beyond the reach of the Church. And on the contrary, are told that at the Day of Judgement, Our Lord will "διαφθειραι τους διαφθειροντας την γην" ("destroy those who destroy the Earth") (Apocalypse 11:18).
Just so, and a point I've made here many times before about the EP. I still question the need of this highly politicized issue on the agenda of the first synod in 670 or 1200 years (depending on which councils one counts).
So, what issues do you consider more important?

Just thinking...  Were not the theological issues addressed by the [first] Seven Ecumenical Councils also the hot political issues of the day?
 

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Heracleides said:
Complete article here: Mankind is More Than the Janitor of Planet Earth

“Mankind is more than the janitor of planet Earth,” writes Brendan O’Neill. “I am avowedly atheist. But listening to the bishops’ drab, eco-pious Christmas sermons, I couldn’t help thinking: ‘Bring back God!’”

Read that article and then compare with the EP's own eco-nonsense (yes, I said nonsense):

"Our Patriarchate, which symbolically celebrates September 1st, the beginning of the Ecclesiastical year, as the Day of Creation, today unites its voice with the environmentally sensitive and active people and institutions throughout this earth, regardless of religious or political beliefs."

Complete Patriarchial statement here: Message of His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew on World Environment Day (5 June 2008)
.
Another warned traditional orthodox defender martyr,,,welcome brother........<img src="http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_29.gif" alt="SmileyCentral.com" border="0">to the fold..
 

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It seems as if we have reached a point where almost everything said by the EP will be interpreted based on preconceptions.  And I mean to apply that to both "sides".  There are those who see practically anything the EP says as evidence of ecumenism and enviro-lunacy, but there are also those who paper over genuinely concerning statements as if they are nothing. 

For example, some of the claims made in the Patriarch's "Encountering the Mystery" book are troubling to me, but things have become so polarized that it is difficult to seriously discuss them.

 

ozgeorge

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Maksim said:
but things have become so polarized that it is difficult to seriously discuss them.
I've noticed that too! I've just had some friends from the US over here staying with me in Australia, (from OCnet in fact) and we were able to talk about our different worldviews. Listening to them, I was amazed at how polarized US society is. What many US posters on OCnet seem to forget is that OCnet has posters from all around the world, and the polarization which exists in the US does not necessarily exist elsewhere. For example, the terms "liberal" and "conservative" are meaningless in Australian politics and policy analysis, whereas, in the US, it's a way of categorizing people according to their views.
The same thing seems to happen in Orthodoxy in the US, where there are the "traditionalists" and just the "run of the mill Orthodox", and this seems to be aligned with political views (the "traditionalists" being "conservative" and the "run-of-the-mill Orthodox" being "liberal"). This doesn't happen here either. It makes no sense here to divide Orthodox Christians into "traditional" vs. "other", because Orthodoxy is naturally "traditional" in Australia (which is why the non-Orthodox have so much trouble understanding us, and even question whether we are Christian!).
This polarization is actually making OCnet very boring at the moment. Nothing is able to be discussed. I'm half tempted to stop posting until 3 months after the US elections, so that our polarized US brothers and sisters get everything out of their system and we can return to discussing things on the forum like Christian adults without the "holier than thou" rubbish that is going on at the moment.
 

username!

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ozgeorge said:
Maksim said:
but things have become so polarized that it is difficult to seriously discuss them.
I've noticed that too! I've just had some friends from the US over here staying with me in Australia, (from OCnet in fact) and we were able to talk about our different worldviews. Listening to them, I was amazed at how polarized US society is. What many US posters on OCnet seem to forget is that OCnet has posters from all around the world, and the polarization which exists in the US does not necessarily exist elsewhere. For example, the terms "liberal" and "conservative" are meaningless in Australian politics and policy analysis, whereas, in the US, it's a way of categorizing people according to their views.
The same thing seems to happen in Orthodoxy in the US, where there are the "traditionalists" and just the "run of the mill Orthodox", and this seems to be aligned with political views (the "traditionalists" being "conservative" and the "run-of-the-mill Orthodox" being "liberal"). This doesn't happen here either. It makes no sense here to divide Orthodox Christians into "traditional" vs. "other", because Orthodoxy is naturally "traditional" in Australia (which is why the non-Orthodox have so much trouble understanding us, and even question whether we are Christian!).
This polarization is actually making OCnet very boring at the moment. Nothing is able to be discussed. I'm half tempted to stop posting until 3 months after the US elections, so that our polarized US brothers and sisters get everything out of their system and we can return to discussing things on the forum like Christian adults without the "holier than thou" rubbish that is going on at the moment.
Post of the Month nominee!!!!! 
 

SouthSerb99

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ozgeorge said:
I've noticed that too! I've just had some friends from the US over here staying with me in Australia, (from OCnet in fact) and we were able to talk about our different worldviews. Listening to them, I was amazed at how polarized US society is. What many US posters on OCnet seem to forget is that OCnet has posters from all around the world, and the polarization which exists in the US does not necessarily exist elsewhere. For example, the terms "liberal" and "conservative" are meaningless in Australian politics and policy analysis, whereas, in the US, it's a way of categorizing people according to their views.
The same thing seems to happen in Orthodoxy in the US, where there are the "traditionalists" and just the "run of the mill Orthodox", and this seems to be aligned with political views (the "traditionalists" being "conservative" and the "run-of-the-mill Orthodox" being "liberal"). This doesn't happen here either. It makes no sense here to divide Orthodox Christians into "traditional" vs. "other", because Orthodoxy is naturally "traditional" in Australia (which is why the non-Orthodox have so much trouble understanding us, and even question whether we are Christian!).
This polarization is actually making OCnet very boring at the moment. Nothing is able to be discussed. I'm half tempted to stop posting until 3 months after the US elections, so that our polarized US brothers and sisters get everything out of their system and we can return to discussing things on the forum like Christian adults without the "holier than thou" rubbish that is going on at the moment.
Just another attempt by a psycho liberal the enslave us with socialism! LOL

Actually I totally agree and it is interesting to see the same polarization happen in Canada.  It's as though the politicians can't think on their own, so they use the US playbook, which is then absorbed by the masses.
 

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I blame the Father of all Deceivers, Satan, for the situation for He is sifting the Orthodox flock into traditionalists and run-of-the-mill and both can be absolutely WRONG including my humble self who is permanently wrong  :'(
 

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SolEX01 said:
I blame the Father of all Deceivers, Satan, for the situation for He is sifting the Orthodox flock into traditionalists and run-of-the-mill and both can be absolutely WRONG including my humble self who is permanently wrong   :'(
That last bit was sorta...masochistic of you, SolEx.  :-\
 

SolEX01

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Myrrh23 said:
That last bit was sorta...masochistic of you, SolEx.  :-\
Undecided icon ...
I do feel like some things I say are permanently wrong.  Maybe I don't know any better.  ???
 

Fr. George

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ozgeorge said:
This polarization is actually making OCnet very boring at the moment. Nothing is able to be discussed.
Agreed.

ozgeorge said:
I'm half tempted to stop posting until 3 months after the US elections, so that our polarized US brothers and sisters get everything out of their system and we can return to discussing things on the forum like Christian adults without the "holier than thou" rubbish that is going on at the moment.
Eh.... I'd probably begin feeling withdrawal symptoms after about 3 or 4 days.
 

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How about withdrawal symptoms 3 or 4 weeks ago? I've tired of the whole thing. I don't think I have a viable choice this year among the two major parties, and the meaningless and false "debate" and "discourse" of late have gratingly proven that. I've turned to preparing for All Saints/All Souls.
 

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username! said:
Post of the Month nominee!!!!! 
I'll second that.
 

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ozgeorge said:
Αριστοκλής said:
I understand that this environmental topic has been added to the agenda for our next, long-awaited General Synod. I seriously question the need, or purpose of that given other, more pressing issues needing resolution.
I think it's an issue of Salvation. The Church is meant to Santcify the entire Cosmos, and deliver it from the effects of the Fall, not just human beings. For example, we Sanctify the depths of the sea on Theophany, and restore the element of water to it's Created, prelapsarian nature- so there is nothing in the Cosmos which is beyond the reach of the Church. And on the contrary, are told that at the Day of Judgement, Our Lord will "διαφθειραι τους διαφθειροντας την γην" ("destroy those who destroy the Earth") (Apocalypse 11:18).
AMEN! While I am not a liberal by any means, when God became incarnate he sanctified all of creation. This includes the world we live in and we are to treat it with respect.
 

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ozgeorge said:
Maksim said:
but things have become so polarized that it is difficult to seriously discuss them.
I've noticed that too! I've just had some friends from the US over here staying with me in Australia, (from OCnet in fact) and we were able to talk about our different worldviews. Listening to them, I was amazed at how polarized US society is. What many US posters on OCnet seem to forget is that OCnet has posters from all around the world, and the polarization which exists in the US does not necessarily exist elsewhere. For example, the terms "liberal" and "conservative" are meaningless in Australian politics and policy analysis, whereas, in the US, it's a way of categorizing people according to their views.
The same thing seems to happen in Orthodoxy in the US, where there are the "traditionalists" and just the "run of the mill Orthodox", and this seems to be aligned with political views (the "traditionalists" being "conservative" and the "run-of-the-mill Orthodox" being "liberal"). This doesn't happen here either. It makes no sense here to divide Orthodox Christians into "traditional" vs. "other", because Orthodoxy is naturally "traditional" in Australia (which is why the non-Orthodox have so much trouble understanding us, and even question whether we are Christian!).
This polarization is actually making OCnet very boring at the moment. Nothing is able to be discussed. I'm half tempted to stop posting until 3 months after the US elections, so that our polarized US brothers and sisters get everything out of their system and we can return to discussing things on the forum like Christian adults without the "holier than thou" rubbish that is going on at the moment.
AWWW. But George, this polarization is what makes U.S. Politics so much fun.
 

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My whole view on this changed years ago after reading two books:

The Lord of the Rings, J.R.R. Tolkien (no explanation needed, I hope; is there a work of fiction with a sacramental sense as rich as this?)

and, surprisingly, Pollution and the Death of Man: The Christian View of Ecology, by Francis Schaeffer (Frank Schaeffer's illustrious father). I never would have expected a Reformed Evangelical to produce something like this, but Dr. Schaeffer has (in my opinion) produced the best short work on the subject. I can't recommend highly enough this brilliant and lucid book.
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
Αριστοκλής said:
ozgeorge said:
Αριστοκλής said:
I understand that this environmental topic has been added to the agenda for our next, long-awaited General Synod. I seriously question the need, or purpose of that given other, more pressing issues needing resolution.
I think it's an issue of Salvation. The Church is meant to Santcify the entire Cosmos, and deliver it from the effects of the Fall, not just human beings. For example, we Sanctify the depths of the sea on Theophany, and restore the element of water to it's Created, prelapsarian nature- so there is nothing in the Cosmos which is beyond the reach of the Church. And on the contrary, are told that at the Day of Judgement, Our Lord will "διαφθειραι τους διαφθειροντας την γην" ("destroy those who destroy the Earth") (Apocalypse 11:18).
Just so, and a point I've made here many times before about the EP. I still question the need of this highly politicized issue on the agenda of the first synod in 670 or 1200 years (depending on which councils one counts).
So, what issues do you consider more important?

Just thinking...  Were not the theological issues addressed by the [first] Seven Ecumenical Councils also the hot political issues of the day?
Putting environmental awareness on the agenda is one thing. Luring the Church into possibly making statements on science and public policy however is a danger - look at the trouble the RCs have gotten into over the centuries attempting the exact same thing and none of that has close relationship to salvation in my mind, at least.

What would I add to the agenda? I think the calendar issue has NOT been adequately addressed despite the "Pan Orthodox" Council allowing the RJC/NC along with the dating of Pascha.
In as much as the councils' work became canon law and part of the Code of Roman Laws, yes, they influenced "politics". We just wouldn't see that the same today.
 

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Αριστοκλής said:
In as much as the councils' work became canon law and part of the Code of Roman Laws, yes, they influenced "politics".
And in as much as the hot theological issues threatened the political unity of the Empire, thus forcing the Emperor to convene at least a few of the councils.
 

Aristocles

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PeterTheAleut said:
Αριστοκλής said:
In as much as the councils' work became canon law and part of the Code of Roman Laws, yes, they influenced "politics".
And in as much as the hot theological issues threatened the political unity of the Empire, thus forcing the Emperor to convene at least a few of the councils.
Chuckle...I guess there are some who view environmental issues with religious zeal.  ;)

The emperors prized order, something we seem to not value as much today. :D
 

ozgeorge

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ozgeorge said:
Maksim said:
but things have become so polarized that it is difficult to seriously discuss them.
I've noticed that too! I've just had some friends from the US over here staying with me in Australia, (from OCnet in fact) and we were able to talk about our different worldviews. Listening to them, I was amazed at how polarized US society is. What many US posters on OCnet seem to forget is that OCnet has posters from all around the world, and the polarization which exists in the US does not necessarily exist elsewhere. For example, the terms "liberal" and "conservative" are meaningless in Australian politics and policy analysis, whereas, in the US, it's a way of categorizing people according to their views.
The same thing seems to happen in Orthodoxy in the US, where there are the "traditionalists" and just the "run of the mill Orthodox", and this seems to be aligned with political views (the "traditionalists" being "conservative" and the "run-of-the-mill Orthodox" being "liberal"). This doesn't happen here either. It makes no sense here to divide Orthodox Christians into "traditional" vs. "other", because Orthodoxy is naturally "traditional" in Australia (which is why the non-Orthodox have so much trouble understanding us, and even question whether we are Christian!).
This polarization is actually making OCnet very boring at the moment. Nothing is able to be discussed. I'm half tempted to stop posting until 3 months after the US elections, so that our polarized US brothers and sisters get everything out of their system and we can return to discussing things on the forum like Christian adults without the "holier than thou" rubbish that is going on at the moment.
I've decided to take myself up on this until my US brethren get over themselves.
 

Aristocles

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ozgeorge said:
I've noticed that too! I've just had some friends from the US over here staying with me in Australia, (from OCnet in fact) and we were able to talk about our different worldviews. Listening to them, I was amazed at how polarized US society is. What many US posters on OCnet seem to forget is that OCnet has posters from all around the world, and the polarization which exists in the US does not necessarily exist elsewhere. For example, the terms "liberal" and "conservative" are meaningless in Australian politics and policy analysis, whereas, in the US, it's a way of categorizing people according to their views.
The same thing seems to happen in Orthodoxy in the US, where there are the "traditionalists" and just the "run of the mill Orthodox", and this seems to be aligned with political views (the "traditionalists" being "conservative" and the "run-of-the-mill Orthodox" being "liberal"). This doesn't happen here either. It makes no sense here to divide Orthodox Christians into "traditional" vs. "other", because Orthodoxy is naturally "traditional" in Australia (which is why the non-Orthodox have so much trouble understanding us, and even question whether we are Christian!).
This polarization is actually making OCnet very boring at the moment. Nothing is able to be discussed. I'm half tempted to stop posting until 3 months after the US elections, so that our polarized US brothers and sisters get everything out of their system and we can return to discussing things on the forum like Christian adults without the "holier than thou" rubbish that is going on at the moment.
I've decided to take myself up on this until my US brethren get over themselves.
3 months?
Enjoy your vacation.
 

Asteriktos

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I've decided to take myself up on this until my US brethren get over themselves.
In that case, you might never return! ;)  Come on George, just avoid the political threads and this forum is for the most part very balanced and civil, no?
 

Aristocles

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Asteriktos said:
I've decided to take myself up on this until my US brethren get over themselves.
In that case, you might never return! ;)  Come on George, just avoid the political threads and this forum is for the most part very balanced and civil, no?
Not to worry...less than 24 hour hiatus. Chuckle...
 

ozgeorge

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Αριστοκλής said:
Asteriktos said:
I've decided to take myself up on this until my US brethren get over themselves.
In that case, you might never return! ;)  Come on George, just avoid the political threads and this forum is for the most part very balanced and civil, no?
Not to worry...less than 24 hour hiatus. Chuckle...
It looks like you guys are over yourselves. Well done.
 
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