SSPX expels Bishop Williamson

jmbejdl

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Jan 28, 2005
Messages
1,480
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
44
Location
Aylesbury
Peter J said:
jmbejdl said:
Peter J said:
Michał Kalina said:
Peter J said:
This was set in stone by the naming of Florence as an ecumenical council (initially as # 9, later re-designated as # 17) despite the clear Orthodox rejection of it.
Why would it be the factor? Why haven't accepted any of your Ecumenical Councils after the 7th one.
Nowadays it is taken for granted that us calling a council "Ecumenical" has nothing to do with you Eastern Orthodox (or "the Greeks" as they would have said back then) accepting or rejecting it; but that was a novelty back when Florence became the "9th Ecumenical Council" (notwithstanding the disagreement that already existence concerning the designation of the "8th Ecumenical Council", Constantinople IV). Essentially, it signified that the Eastern Orthodox were out.
I'd have said that had already been done quite effectively when the robber council that deposed St. Photios was designated as the Eighth Ecumenical by Rome in the 12th century. Ignoring the council of 879 that reinstated St. Photios, annulled the previous and condemned the filioque in favour of the council of 869, when the latter had been universally accepted for over 200 years, was clearly signifying that we were out (not to mention re-writing RC history in an almost Orwellian manner).

James
My impression is that "the Latins" of the 15th century were genuinely surprised to learn that "the Greeks" counted 7 ecumenical councils and not 8. It's possible I'm wrong about that, but in any case, we can be sure that they didn't have a perfect knowledge of the events in question, so I wouldn't say that they were "clearly signifying" anything by calling Constantinople IV "the 8th ecumenical council". (In fact, I believe the way it came up at Florence is that "the Latins" said something like: We don't have a copy of the 8th ecumenical council. Can you give us one?)
But Pope John VIII accepted our Constantinople IV (which Orthodox are quite at liberty to consider the 8th Ecumenical) condemnation of filioque and all at the time, so to claim that this had been forgotten a couple of centuries later when the prior robber council was named ecumenical by the post-Schism Roman church seems rather convenient - hence my reference to an Orwellian re-writing of history.

James
 

choy

Archon
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
2,316
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Charles Martel said:
The only "fad" here is much of the post-VII conciliar modernist "church" that is slowly beginning to select itself for extinction which is pretty much evident by the waves of refugees of former "catholics" landing themselves in Evangelical congregations, Eastern Orthodoxy and the ranks of unbelieving agnostics or "spiritualists". Traditionalism is the hope for the future for the True Church evident with recent concessions by the Vatican slowly bringing Latin into the N.O "masses". The more the word gets out and the younger generation is enlightened about the "spirit" of VII and all it's errors and the more it's liberal, hippie priests with their clown masses and rock concerts begin dying off, so too will the last vestige of this bizarre experiment at trying to ecumenize themselves into oblivion.

You can spout off all you want about the demise of SSPX and Tradition, the fact of the matter is, they are the future because they never broke with the past, the True Faith will endure and the Gates of Hell and Postmodernism will not prevail. Tradition will be here long after NewChurch and the Concillarists go the way of the Dodo.
Well, every delusion I have about traditionalism in the Catholic Church has been soundly refuted by Orthodoxy.  So don't worry about me ;)
 

choy

Archon
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
2,316
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Charles Martel,

Let us put down our swords and guns for a moment and why don't you try exploring Orthodoxy?  I guarantee you that you will find the Traditional and True Christian faith that you are looking for, without the angst you have to go through within Roman Catholicism.
 

Papist

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
13,771
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
39
Location
Albuquerque, New Mexico
choy said:
Charles Martel,

Let us put down our swords and guns for a moment and why don't you try exploring Orthodoxy?  I guarantee you that you will find the Traditional and True Christian faith that you are looking for, without the angst you have to go through within Roman Catholicism.
Maybe because he has already found the faith in the Catholic Church.
 

PJ

Taxiarches
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
6,494
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
New England
This is one of those situations where I read your post shortly after you posted it, but then was busy most of the day; I'll try to remember everything I was going to say in reply.

jmbejdl said:
Peter J said:
jmbejdl said:
Peter J said:
Michał Kalina said:
Peter J said:
This was set in stone by the naming of Florence as an ecumenical council (initially as # 9, later re-designated as # 17) despite the clear Orthodox rejection of it.
Why would it be the factor? Why haven't accepted any of your Ecumenical Councils after the 7th one.
Nowadays it is taken for granted that us calling a council "Ecumenical" has nothing to do with you Eastern Orthodox (or "the Greeks" as they would have said back then) accepting or rejecting it; but that was a novelty back when Florence became the "9th Ecumenical Council" (notwithstanding the disagreement that already existence concerning the designation of the "8th Ecumenical Council", Constantinople IV). Essentially, it signified that the Eastern Orthodox were out.
I'd have said that had already been done quite effectively when the robber council that deposed St. Photios was designated as the Eighth Ecumenical by Rome in the 12th century. Ignoring the council of 879 that reinstated St. Photios, annulled the previous and condemned the filioque in favour of the council of 869, when the latter had been universally accepted for over 200 years, was clearly signifying that we were out (not to mention re-writing RC history in an almost Orwellian manner).

James
My impression is that "the Latins" of the 15th century were genuinely surprised to learn that "the Greeks" counted 7 ecumenical councils and not 8. It's possible I'm wrong about that, but in any case, we can be sure that they didn't have a perfect knowledge of the events in question, so I wouldn't say that they were "clearly signifying" anything by calling Constantinople IV "the 8th ecumenical council". (In fact, I believe the way it came up at Florence is that "the Latins" said something like: We don't have a copy of the 8th ecumenical council. Can you give us one?)
But Pope John VIII accepted our Constantinople IV (which Orthodox are quite at liberty to consider the 8th Ecumenical) condemnation of filioque and all at the time, so to claim that this had been forgotten a couple of centuries later when the prior robber council was named ecumenical by the post-Schism Roman church seems rather convenient - hence my reference to an Orwellian re-writing of history.

James
I think you misunderstood what I'm saying. I'm open the possibility that naming Constantinople 869 as an ecumenical council is suspicious and/or Orwellian. But even if it was, a relatively small number of people were guilty of that. Most "Latins" simply passed on what was handed to them.

But what's more, I don't think anyone, even whoever first had the idea of calling it an ecumenical council, meant that the "Greeks" were "out". (Sorry for all the quotation marks.)
 

Charles Martel

Taxiarches
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Messages
6,805
Reaction score
0
Points
0
choy said:
Charles Martel,

Let us put down our swords and guns for a moment and why don't you try exploring Orthodoxy?  I guarantee you that you will find the Traditional and True Christian faith that you are looking for, without the angst you have to go through within Roman Catholicism.
I am an Orthodox, an Orthodox Roman Catholic.

Although I will admit I came on here to learn exactly where the EOC was coming from and our differences and similarities.

I also believe in our uniting under common causes like defending ourselves from infidels and heretics.

Speaking of laying down weapons, I first starting posting on here for a call for unity with Eastern Christians against Muslim persecution  against Christians in Syria and other countries in that region and many Orthodox came at me with guns blazing still jaded about differences from a thousand years ago with Rome. It's almost as if you Orthodox despise the Latins more than the Mohammedans and pagans that are at your throats in your own nations. I had no idea there was so much animosity for the Vatican still existed in the East.


But I am still willing to take up your offer and be reasonable choy.
 

choy

Archon
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
2,316
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Papist said:
choy said:
Charles Martel,

Let us put down our swords and guns for a moment and why don't you try exploring Orthodoxy?  I guarantee you that you will find the Traditional and True Christian faith that you are looking for, without the angst you have to go through within Roman Catholicism.
Maybe because he has already found the faith in the Catholic Church.
Not if he's with the SSPX.

And sorry but I just want to be honest here.  I'm not a priest or anyone with the capacity to be a spiritual father or someone who can decently assess one's spiritual growth.  But from what I see from people with the SSPX, I don't see good spirituality.  It is an honest assessment on my part.  I see them do nothing but complain and accuse and be all negative.  I absolutely do not see Christ in all that.  I'm not trying to start a second round of arguments here, just being honest about what I see with the SSPX.
 

PJ

Taxiarches
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
6,494
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
New England
Charles Martel said:
I am an Orthodox, an Orthodox Roman Catholic.
Not meaning to divert the thread onto grammar, but I find your statement a tad strange. The capital O implies that you mean "Orthodox" as a proper name.
 

mike

Protostrator
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
24,873
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
29
Location
Białystok / Warsaw
Charles Martel said:
I also believe in our uniting under common causes like defending ourselves from infidels and heretics.
Like from those heretics who believe in papal supremacy or filioque?
 

PJ

Taxiarches
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
6,494
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
New England
Michał Kalina said:
Charles Martel said:
I also believe in our uniting under common causes like defending ourselves from infidels and heretics.
Like from those heretics who [don't] believe in papal supremacy or filioque?
Depending which side of the issue you're on.
 

choy

Archon
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
2,316
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Peter J said:
Michał Kalina said:
Charles Martel said:
I also believe in our uniting under common causes like defending ourselves from infidels and heretics.
Like from those heretics who [don't] believe in papal supremacy or filioque?
Depending which side of the issue you're on.
I'm on Batman's side

 

Papist

Toumarches
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
13,771
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
39
Location
Albuquerque, New Mexico
choy said:
Peter J said:
Michał Kalina said:
Charles Martel said:
I also believe in our uniting under common causes like defending ourselves from infidels and heretics.
Like from those heretics who [don't] believe in papal supremacy or filioque?
Depending which side of the issue you're on.
I'm on Batman's side

Bruce Wayne was raised Episcopalian. Hence, when he recited the creed as a child, he professed the filioque.
 

choy

Archon
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
2,316
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Papist said:
choy said:
Peter J said:
Michał Kalina said:
Charles Martel said:
I also believe in our uniting under common causes like defending ourselves from infidels and heretics.
Like from those heretics who [don't] believe in papal supremacy or filioque?
Depending which side of the issue you're on.
I'm on Batman's side

Bruce Wayne was raised Episcopalian. Hence, when he recited the creed as a child, he professed the filioque.
But as the World's Greatest Detective, he soon found out the Filioque to be heretical ;)
 

Charles Martel

Taxiarches
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Messages
6,805
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Michał Kalina said:
Charles Martel said:
I also believe in our uniting under common causes like defending ourselves from infidels and heretics.
Like from those heretics who believe in papal supremacy or filioque?
Really? Not very "ecumenical" of you now Mi-khal is it. ;D
 

choy

Archon
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Messages
2,316
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Charles Martel said:
Really? Not very "ecumenical" of you now Mi-khal is it. ;D
In Orthodoxy, ecumenism doesn't involve sacrificing the Truth. ;)
 

PJ

Taxiarches
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
6,494
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
New England
Charles Martel said:
Michał Kalina said:
Charles Martel said:
I also believe in our uniting under common causes like defending ourselves from infidels and heretics.
Like from those heretics who believe in papal supremacy or filioque?
Really? Not very "ecumenical" of you now Mi-khal is it. ;D
That's not really much of a criticism, in view of the way the word "ecumenical" is typically used on this forum.
 

stella1990

Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2015
Messages
132
Reaction score
0
Points
0
choy said:
Charles Martel said:
choy said:
Charles Martel said:
Tradition will never slip into irrelevance.
True tradition won't.  Thus, the SSPX will slip into irrelevance.
Without men like +Williamson it will.
Bishop Williamson is the greatest reason why not to take the SSPX seriously.  I have yet to meet someone form the SSPX to even make me think about what they teach and do.  In fact, the only thing the SSPX has led me to think about is the validity of teachings of the Catholic Church, themselves included.  While I was never a Traditionalist, the SSPX has played a good part in pushing me towards Orthodoxy.
Regarding "lapsed catholics" I believe SSPX is good in bringing them back to God.

But when you are christian again and strong in your christian values and beliefs you start to question a LOT of things regarding RC thanks to SSPX this time...

 
Top