Stereotyping and other unfair assumptions

[lovesupreme]

I've noticed that Catholics and Orthodox can be, at times, very uncharitable to our Protestant brethren. Were one to take anti-Protestant apologetics seriously without exposure to Protestants, one would think them obstinate and self-serving simpletons who worship the Bible as the Absolute Truth and blindly ignore the history and writings of the early Church.

While ignorance of the early Church does seem to be fairly widespread in America, I'd like to think that there are Protestants out there, perhaps even a significant number, who are learned and yet remain Protestants, for whatever reason. The old Newman adage, "To become deep in history is to cease to become Protestant" has always sounded too easy to me, and again, seems to paint Protestants as ignoramuses who are just missing the final piece in the puzzle.

And even those Protestants who are not so educated, I think, deserve a break. The few Protestants I've met cannot be so easily pigeonholed into the descriptions that we often attribute to them as a whole.

Can anyone list any Protestant authors/thinkers that they think break these stereotypes? Protestants who have heard about the Orthodox Church and have opened into dialogue with its members?

Why do you think we resort to these stereotypes when we may know Protestants that break them? Can some of it be attributed to "ex-Protestant angst," or is that being too presumptious?

How can we try to get rid of the perception that Orthodox and Catholics stick their noses up at Protestants? I suppose it starts with acknowledging our own assumptions, but then what? I'm not looking for ecumenical dialogue or anything, but I'd like to get rid of the perception that I'm some elitist bogeyman from the East. I try not to dwell on religious subjects in general, but when they come up, it would be great to have responses other than, "well, had you read the Early Church fathers," or just simply "I don't think you understand." Maybe there's no way to avoid some conflict...

I hope this isn't coming off as too ranty, but it's one of the many things that has been bothering me as of late...

EDIT: I realize that "Protestant" is a fairly ambiguous label, and that when people say "Protestant," they might mean "fundamentalist," "evangelical," etc.

 

[Jetavan]

Can anyone list any Protestant authors/thinkers that they think break these stereotypes? Protestants who have heard about the Orthodox Church and have opened into dialogue with its members?

Brian McLaren.

 

[lovesupreme]

Can anyone list any Protestant authors/thinkers that they think break these stereotypes? Protestants who have heard about the Orthodox Church and have opened into dialogue with its members?

Brian McLaren.

I've heard that book blasted by an Orthodox priest. Has anyone read it?

 

[Jetavan]

Can anyone list any Protestant authors/thinkers that they think break these stereotypes? Protestants who have heard about the Orthodox Church and have opened into dialogue with its members?

Brian McLaren.

I've heard that book blasted by an Orthodox priest. Has anyone read it?

In that book, McLaren credits the Eastern Orthodox for giving him an more expansive image of Jesus, as savior not just of humanity but of the cosmos as a whole; and explains how Athanasius described the logic behind the incarnation, why it was necessary that God become human as the way to re-invite humans to participate in His Love. Whereas evangelicals tend to see Jesus as a dying savior, and Pentecostals tend to see Jesus as a Spirit-sending savior, and Catholics tend to see Jesus as a resurrected savior, the Orthodox see Jesus's saving power in the mere fact that He was born human. By being born, Jesus invites humans and all creation to "perichoresis", the eternal relationship/dance of Father, Son, and Spirit.

He also has positive regards for the Orthodox view of Adam, Eve, and sin.

 

[Alpo]

Can anyone list any Protestant authors/thinkers that they think break these stereotypes? Protestants who have heard about the Orthodox Church and have opened into dialogue with its members?

Brian McLaren.

http://www.lutheranworld.org/content/lutheran-orthodox-dialogue

 

[augustin717]

It's somehow naive bordering on simpleton-ism to think that any x-ian would be somehow awestruck by the most glorious awesomeness of the byzantine rite, but it's an assumption that's quite widespread in the english orthodox apologetics. meanwhile people born into that most glorious aesthetic environment are oftentimes moved by the glossy covers of the Watchtower.

 

[lovesupreme]

In that book, McLaren credits the Eastern Orthodox for giving him an more expansive image of Jesus, as savior not just of humanity but of the cosmos as a whole; and explains how Athanasius described the logic behind the incarnation, why it was necessary that God become human as the way to re-invite humans to participate in His Love. Whereas evangelicals tend to see Jesus as a dying savior, and Pentecostals tend to see Jesus as a Spirit-sending savior, and Catholics tend to see Jesus as a resurrected savior, the Orthodox see Jesus's saving power in the mere fact that He was born human. By being born, Jesus invites humans and all creation to "perichoresis", the eternal relationship/dance of Father, Son, and Spirit.

He also has positive regards for the Orthodox view of Adam, Eve, and sin.

OK. Thanks. I had dismissed him before, but maybe his book is worth reading.

It's somehow naive bordering on simpleton-ism to think that any x-ian would be somehow awestruck by the most glorious awesomeness of the byzantine rite, but it's an assumption that's quite widespread in the english orthodox apologetics. meanwhile people born into that most glorious aesthetic environment are oftentimes moved by the glossy covers of the Watchtower.

Whenever I see Protestant visitors at my services, they never *seem* awestruck. This brings up the often cited claim that "everything will make sense once you attend a Divine Liturgy." While ours is a tangible faith that begs to be experienced, I think *some* Protestants would be more confused than enlightened, after having attended a strange and drawn-out, and repetitive liturgy. If anything, less would make sense and more would need to be explored...

 

[Romaios]

meanwhile people born into that most glorious aesthetic environment are oftentimes moved by the glossy covers of the Watchtower.

I think it may have to do with the fact that, in some parts of the "Old World", the glorious Byzantine rite is celebrated in a sub-standard, routine, stale manner, unworthy of what it once was and still can be in more fortunate circumstances. Decrepit old chanters or choirs, priests with no enthusiasm whatsoever for what they are doing (mere functionaries of a state institution), parochialism, formalism and lukewarmness all around. A much too familiar story down here, I'm afraid...

 

[WPM]

I don't see one's religious labeling as much of issue. It makes about as much difference as whimsical Television news reporting

 

[xOrthodox4Christx]

Dr. James White.

He knows the history of the New Testament, and had read Ignatius and has written books and cited people like St. Hilary of Poitiers, St. Augustine and St. Athanasius in his defense of the Trinity. He is a Reformed theologian.

I also know of some Reformed guy on a blog named Francis. He has lots of critiques on Rome, and he hosts many databases of the Church Fathers. Just on the basis of his theology I didn't add his blog to my favorites.

Protestant theologians who study the manuscript tradition in Germany, study the Fathers and cite them in critical apparatus.

 

[johann]

Dr. James Payton;

Books:
Light from the Christian East
Getting the Reformation Wrong: Correcting some Misunderstandings
A Patristic Treasury: Early Church Wisdom for Today (published by Ancient Faith publishing)

My in-laws are heavily involved in the Christian Reformed Church (Dutch Reformed tradition). One family member teaches Biblical Greek and has translated many of St. John Chrysostom's homilies into English.

The CRC church that I occasionally attend includes an art gallery at the back (not icons, but sometimes close). I've also heard sermon's quoting various Church Fathers, expounding on Christus Victor and theosis, discussion of icon's, etc. At the same time I've never heard any talk about penal substitution and this is a supposedly a neo-calvinist Church!

So I would agree with the OP. Protestantism is a large broad landscape and we cannot say. "O those poor backwards protestants. If only they would read ...insert any popular convert book... they will see how poor and mistaken they are". Nor should we consider them without always remembering where they came from...reactions to various medieval Roman Catholic corruptions.

 

[ialmisry]

I've noticed that Catholics and Orthodox can be, at times, very uncharitable to our Protestant brethren. Were one to take anti-Protestant apologetics seriously without exposure to Protestants, one would think them obstinate and self-serving simpletons who worship the Bible as the Absolute Truth and blindly ignore the history and writings of the early Church.

While ignorance of the early Church does seem to be fairly widespread in America, I'd like to think that there are Protestants out there, perhaps even a significant number, who are learned and yet remain Protestants, for whatever reason. The old Newman adage, "To become deep in history is to cease to become Protestant" has always sounded too easy to me

you weren't a Protestant, were you?

 

[Iconodule]

Thomas Oden http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_C._Oden

 

[orthonorm]

Where I came from the Southern Baptists were considered crypto-papists and the Pope, well the False Prophet or Antichrist. That was the biggest controversy about RC.

The KJV was the most divinely inspired scripture. Seriously, I am not kidding. God corrected all the previous errors in the Bible in that version. We even had the apocrypha.

An Orthodox liturgy would have caused renting of garments and gnashing of teeth, if anyone had ever heard of it.

 

[Jetavan]

Jaroslav Pelikan, as a Lutheran, wrote on Orthodoxy (as seen in vol. 2 of his 1970s-written The Christian Tradition). He and his wife became Orthodox in 1998.

 

[katherineofdixie]

Whenever I see Protestant visitors at my services, they never *seem* awestruck. This brings up the often cited claim that "everything will make sense once you attend a Divine Liturgy." While ours is a tangible faith that begs to be experienced, I think *some* Protestants would be more confused than enlightened, after having attended a strange and drawn-out, and repetitive liturgy. If anything, less would make sense and more would need to be explored...

Some would. I think it's about half and half really, as far as I can tell. There are visitors who look bewildered and others who have this almost goofy look of stunned joy. If you come from a liturgical Protestant church (there are those, you know), the DL feels very comfortable and accessible. The structure is almost the same. For me, it was like hearing a world class symphony orchestra in person, in a hall with perfect acoustics, after only having heard them on a cassette tape.

 

[lovesupreme]

I've noticed that Catholics and Orthodox can be, at times, very uncharitable to our Protestant brethren. Were one to take anti-Protestant apologetics seriously without exposure to Protestants, one would think them obstinate and self-serving simpletons who worship the Bible as the Absolute Truth and blindly ignore the history and writings of the early Church.

While ignorance of the early Church does seem to be fairly widespread in America, I'd like to think that there are Protestants out there, perhaps even a significant number, who are learned and yet remain Protestants, for whatever reason. The old Newman adage, "To become deep in history is to cease to become Protestant" has always sounded too easy to me

you weren't a Protestant, were you?

It's pretty obvious I wasn't, no? 

 

[PeterTheAleut]

I've noticed that Catholics and Orthodox can be, at times, very uncharitable to our Protestant brethren. Were one to take anti-Protestant apologetics seriously without exposure to Protestants, one would think them obstinate and self-serving simpletons who worship the Bible as the Absolute Truth and blindly ignore the history and writings of the early Church.

While ignorance of the early Church does seem to be fairly widespread in America, I'd like to think that there are Protestants out there, perhaps even a significant number, who are learned and yet remain Protestants, for whatever reason. The old Newman adage, "To become deep in history is to cease to become Protestant" has always sounded too easy to me

you weren't a Protestant, were you?

It's pretty obvious I wasn't, no?  

Your perception shows a lot of insight into Protestantism that I wouldn't expect from someone who's never been Protestant.

 

[Anastasia1]

I'm just going to put this out there. Stereotypes make for better comedy, you just need to know your limits and your audience.

 

[David Young]

I think by and large Protestants swallowed liberal theology from about the 1880s and so ceased to be Protestant in anything but name, whilst those who retained the faith retreated into an anti-intellectual pietism. Following the second world war, things changed, and there has been ever since a resurgence of Evangelical scholarship. Alister McGrath comes to mind as a writer whose books are richly nourishing.

 

[David Young]

one would think them obstinate and self-serving simpletons who worship the Bible as the Absolute Truth and blindly ignore the history and writings of the early Church.

And of course there are Protestants who are not far from fitting that description - as I dare say there are Orthodox and Catholics similarly, mutatis mutandis. But the church has room for those of a simple, unquestioning faith who accept what they are taught by men they trust and are taken, we believe, to heaven on that basis. Our Lord is bound by his word to turn away none who come to him. But the presence of those brethren in our midst does not define the essence or character of the religion, for there have been over the centuries, and still are, many deeply thinking learned scholars who are persuaded that the Evangelical faith is true.

 

[xOrthodox4Christx]

Evangelical Christianity is mindless and militant. That has been my experience.

 

[JamesR]

Evangelical Christianity is mindless and militant. That has been my experience.

I agree

And so is Orthodoxy with its obsession with ethnicity and nationalism.

 

[Mor Ephrem]

Evangelical Christianity is mindless and militant. That has been my experience.

Funny, I would've replaced "Evangelical Christianity" with "JamesR".   

 

[PeterTheAleut]

Evangelical Christianity is mindless and militant. That has been my experience.

How much experience do you have of Evangelical Christianity?

 

[TheTrisagion]

Where I came from the Southern Baptists were considered crypto-papists and the Pope, well the False Prophet or Antichrist. That was the biggest controversy about RC.

The KJV was the most divinely inspired scripture. Seriously, I am not kidding. God corrected all the previous errors in the Bible in that version. We even had the apocrypha.

An Orthodox liturgy would have caused renting of garments and gnashing of teeth, if anyone had ever heard of it.

This is an eerily close description to my upbringing.  I am sure that there are intellectual Protestants, but in my 30 years of being one, I can count the number of people I would classify as being an intellectual on one hand and have fingers left over.

 

[David Young]

The KJV was the most divinely inspired scripture. Seriously, I am not kidding. God corrected all the previous errors in the Bible in that version.

This is inaccurate. What they believe - I have a friend from California who believes it and so I have read extensively on the subject, as I preach in the church where he pastors - is that the Textus Receptus is the best, purest original Greek, and that Alexandrine manuscripts, on which versions like the NIV and RSV are based, were later corruptions. They say the Textus Receptus was preserved in Byzantium till the coming of Islam forced scholars to escape westwards at a similar time to the invention of printing, so that the Textus Receptus and the KJV based on it were widely disseminated by God's providence and timing.

I have no reason to agree with all that, but in disagreeing with someone's view, let us at least portray it accurately.

 

[arnI]

Obviously there are as many differing views among Protestants as there are Protestant denominations and "non-denominations", but here is an example of one view:

At 7:00 and 9:30 in the below mp3 file, to paraphrase this independent Baptist preacher from Maryland, the minister says that the "KJV is the very Word of God ... has every word that God want's it to have .. is the complete word of God ... God did not stop motivating by divine inspiration after the 66 books were put to parchment".

http://fundamentalpreaching.org/media/08-17-08pm.mp3

At about 17:40, addresses how "Alexandrians" believe that only the originals were inspired.

Not sure who the Alexandrians are.

 

[David Young]

Not sure who the Alexandrians are.

Scholars and scribes resident in Alexandria, which was (I believe) in Egypt.

 

[David Young]

God did not stop motivating by divine inspiration after the 66 books were put to parchment.

I wonder whether by "inspiration" he means what might more readily be called guidance or providence. If he really means inspiration in the full, classic sense which we all agree is true of scripture, then it is a strange teaching which is no part of classic Evangelical thought.

 

[Iconodule]

I recently came across one Protestant(ish) group which accepts the apocrypha as holy scripture; they're called the "New Apostolic Church."

 

[TheTrisagion]

The KJV was the most divinely inspired scripture. Seriously, I am not kidding. God corrected all the previous errors in the Bible in that version.

This is inaccurate. What they believe - I have a friend from California who believes it and so I have read extensively on the subject, as I preach in the church where he pastors - is that the Textus Receptus is the best, purest original Greek, and that Alexandrine manuscripts, on which versions like the NIV and RSV are based, were later corruptions. They say the Textus Receptus was preserved in Byzantium till the coming of Islam forced scholars to escape westwards at a similar time to the invention of printing, so that the Textus Receptus and the KJV based on it were widely disseminated by God's providence and timing.

I have no reason to agree with all that, but in disagreeing with someone's view, let us at least portray it accurately.

Actually, there are many factions of KJV "only-ism" here in the US.  They frequently fight amongst one another as to who has the correct perspective.  You can read about the groups here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KJV_Only

I grew up in a church that taught the second to last:

"The Inspired KJV Group" – This faction believes that the KJV itself was divinely inspired. They view the translation to be preserved by God and as accurate as the original Greek and Hebrew manuscripts found in its underlying texts. Sometimes this group will even exclude other language versions based on the same manuscripts, claiming that the KJV is the only English Bible sanctioned by God.

The church I grew up in expelled a deacon from the church for reading a RSV Bible. If you really want to get an even more twisted view, look up Peter Ruckman. He is so far out there, even Bob Jones University thinks he is extreme (although I think he attended there for a time and might have even gotten some degrees there)

 

[Velsigne]

One of my favorite non-denominational, or maybe it's Evangelical, not sure what mega-churches are, people was my previous employer.  He was raised Church of Christ by a very harsh Scottish descent father.  He had a major collapse of faith for many years due to the spiritual abuse of both his family and Church of Christ. 

Eventually he followed his wife to church at a mega-church where he could just sit in the back and not be noticed.  It took years, but he finally healed somewhat from spiritual abuse.  He had very funny stories about his childhood experiences in church, but of course when he was young it wasn't so funny.  They sounded like people who try to read the Bible as an instruction manual on how to conduct church services, but that isn't the intention of the New Testament.  It's like reading the Electrical Code to try to know electrical installation mechanics.  It just doesn't work that way, it's a code book. 

He's a genuinely good person who was very happy for me when I was baptized and didn't care that it was Orthodox. 

The others are the people who are struggling to be good people, and they are different from average folks.  By their fruits you will know them.  Some of them I look in their eyes and I see the light of Christ.  They love and they are humble.  They try to help others.  One lady  started talking to me at work (different company though), she was so drawn to me, and asked me if I'm Russian.  lol  That was kind of strange, but she insisted that I seem Russian (she's Indonesian), but even Russians think I'm Russian at church.  She insisted that I am a nice person and has even invited me to her house, which is basically unheard of in my weird and distinctly non-Christian work environment (we have a prayer room, but in the hyper-politically correct environment, it is only for Muslims, and people scream at each other and get very intense).  I could tell the minute I looked at her she is Christian.  Hardly anyone talks to me there except my direct co-workers, and it's usually just brief chit chat or work related.  So it's very unusual and I'm grateful for her kindness and her everyday witness of Christ with her presence.  There are other closet Christians there as well, we eventually find each other. 

Another guy from work who was unfailingly kind to me and always helped when he could.  Lapsed Southern Baptist.  He said I never bothered him and I could come anytime, other people bother him, but I don't.  lol  I bothered him all the time with questions and he would attend to every one of them.  That's unheard of in my job.  But he doesn't like churches anymore. 

The nurse at the hospital who tended to me when I staggered in from the parking lot and nearly passed out at the check in desk.  She invited me to her church, and I figured they would help me, but I didn't go.  I remember reading Elder Paisios saying that when the people won't help someone, God will help them.  And He did.  Even some Orthodox people thought I was crazy and they would constantly ask, "What are you going to do?"  And I would say, "I don't know, I'm waiting on God."  They would insist that I have to do something myself because God helps those who help themselves.  Pretty sure that is Ben Franklin, not God.  Except the Ethiopian lady at my parish.  She accepted my answer no problem.  And God did help me after I learned that I can do nothing alone, an important lesson in trust.

Another time I attended to an elderly couple at hospital.  The woman was having surgery and her husband had Alzheimer's.  I was there to sit with him, help him find the bathroom and the cafeteria and guide him back to the waiting area, and help her get back home afterward.  While I sat with her in the surgery prep area like 5 different people came through, and each one told us about their religious beliefs.  I don't know if this is typical for hospitals nowadays, but it was strange how everyone just felt inspired to share something.  There were some very different takes on things.  One asked if the woman would like a minister to come and pray before surgery, and the woman agreed.  A young girl showed up in little red flats and said a prayer.  She was a pastor!  It seemed so bizarre to me and the prayer just sounded weird.  I kept staring at her shoes and her little girl feet, I was so in shock.  lol  I guess I'm just set on the idea that priests are men and that's it.  Another lady said I must come to her Russian church.  Apparently the Russians have an Evangelical mega-church in the area.  I was so confused by 'Russian church' I had to ask her what church, because Russian Orthodoxy is so small here.  Most of the Russian emigrants are anything but Orthodox.  Really nice lady though, and very excited about her church. 



A long time ago I read a book by a 19th century Dutch Reformed pastor from Capetown, South Africa: Andrew Murray.  I remember liking him.

When I was an Orthodox catechumen seems like I tried to revisit his work, but found things that I couldn't agree having been more exposed to Christianity.  But he does have a lot of good things to say. 

http://www.ccel.org/m/murray

My favorite Orthodox person so far is the Ethiopian lady I stood behind during Liturgy.  I always knew she was so special, but I didn't know why.  When she passed, I learned that she had been in a Communist prison and tortured for about seven years.  Her husband was assassinated, her many children scattered.  She was very quiet and humble, but her face radiated deep love and peace.  I think she is a saint.  When that happens, just being in their presence is a help.

 

[crazyms]

Where I came from the Southern Baptists were considered crypto-papists and the Pope, well the False Prophet or Antichrist. That was the biggest controversy about RC.

The KJV was the most divinely inspired scripture. Seriously, I am not kidding. God corrected all the previous errors in the Bible in that version. We even had the apocrypha.

An Orthodox liturgy would have caused renting of garments and gnashing of teeth, if anyone had ever heard of it.

This! I'm from the deep south where Baptist is the norm and you can pretty much kiss off even FINDING a Bible version other than KJV without going online to get it. It's a major part of the culture here. Almost everyone I know is Protestant or "nominally protestant" with a few RC scattered about. Even mentioning that I attended an Orthodox church has gotten nothing but a lot of "what kind of church is that?" responses.

 

[David Young]

One of my favorite non-denominational, or maybe it's Evangelical,

Lovely post. Thank you. As Charles Wesley has it:

Ye different sects, who all declare,
"Lo, here is Christ!" or "Christ is there!"
Your stronger proofs divinely give,
And show me where the Christians live.

The few that truly call thee Lord,
And wait thy sanctifying word,
And thee their utmost Saviour own,
Unite, and perfect them in one.

In them let all mankind behold
How Christians lived in days of old,
Mighty their envious foes to move,
A proverb of reproach - and love.

O might my lot be cast with these,
The least of Jesu's witnesses....