Strange icons

mike

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LBK said:
Indeed, using your logic, every iconographer is simply to show off their artistic skill.
No, because mst icons can be used as objects of veneration, as educational tools, as tools for helping to focus on prayer, as decorations... This can be used in none of these ways. So I'm asking, why?
 

LBK

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Michał Kalina said:
LBK said:
Indeed, using your logic, every iconographer is simply to show off their artistic skill.
No, because mst icons can be used as objects of veneration, as educational tools, as tools for helping to focus on prayer, as decorations... This can be used in none of these ways. So I'm asking, why?
Please note the bolded words. Did I not mention prayer and fasting as part of the discipline of painting an icon several posts ago?

You are so eager to score points off me you're ignoring what I've said. Not a good look.
 

mike

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LBK said:
Michał Kalina said:
LBK said:
Indeed, using your logic, every iconographer is simply to show off their artistic skill.
No, because mst icons can be used as objects of veneration, as educational tools, as tools for helping to focus on prayer, as decorations... This can be used in none of these ways. So I'm asking, why?
Please note the bolded words. Did I not mention prayer and fasting as part of the discipline of painting an icon several posts ago?

You are so eager to score points off me you're ignoring what I've said. Not a good look.
So has it been useless since it was painted?
 

LBK

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Michał Kalina said:
LBK said:
Michał Kalina said:
LBK said:
Indeed, using your logic, every iconographer is simply to show off their artistic skill.
No, because mst icons can be used as objects of veneration, as educational tools, as tools for helping to focus on prayer, as decorations... This can be used in none of these ways. So I'm asking, why?
Please note the bolded words. Did I not mention prayer and fasting as part of the discipline of painting an icon several posts ago?

You are so eager to score points off me you're ignoring what I've said. Not a good look.
So has it been useless since it was painted?
Not at all, even though you keep trying to say so. It's still an icon of Christ, and it can still be prayed before. Heck, it can even be venerated by kissing one's fingertip and touching it onto the icon, in the same way that icons out of reach of one's lips are venerated. You would have seen this kind of veneration many times in your life. For all we know, this miniature was painted to be placed in a locket, and worn and venerated like a baptismal cross. Instead of a photograph of a loved one, there is an icon of Christ.

Still want to call it useless?
 

hecma925

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LBK said:
Shanghaiski said:
Michał Kalina said:
monkvasyl said:
Michał Kalina said:
What is the point of that?
In places were a Christian could be persecuted for having an icon, this one could easily be hidden when necessary.
Do you think it was painted for that? Seriously?
Because it can be done. Isn't it Russian? Brought to you by the same folks who built the biggest cannon, the biggest bell, the biggest church, the biggest empire, etc. Now, why not go to the other end of the scale?
You beat me to it.  :laugh: Russians are renowned for their miniatures, the Palekh region particularly so.

I've seen quite a few miniature icons, but never one that small! I'm impressed. Very impressed.
It's beautiful.  Where can I find miniature icons like that?
 

LizaSymonenko

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Michał Kalina said:
LBK said:
Michał Kalina said:
LBK said:
You beat me to it.  :laugh: Russians are renowned for their miniatures, the Palekh region particularly so.

I've seen quite a few miniature icons, but never one that small! I'm impressed. Very impressed.
If there any reason for it to be created other but boasting about skills? I mean, how can one kiss that for example?
My, you have a narrow view of certain things! So using one's talent for glorifying God isn't good enough?
How it's gloryfing God? Can you give a single practical usage of that?
It might actually be used as a "miniature" in a dollhouse.  Girls often play with dollhouses, reenacting daily routines with the little family, and thereby, learning themselves. 

Why not have little icons on the walls in the dollhouse, so they learn that is "normal" and to be expected?





 

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^She's depicted as Abbess (Gerontissa) of the Holy Mountain.
 

LBK

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LizaSymonenko said:
I've never seen an icon like this.  She seems to be dressed as a bishop.

She is wearing a mantiya of a bishop or archimandrite. This image, called Gerontissa (Eldress) is a variant of the Abbess of Athos, a reference to her being the patron and protector of the Holy Mountain, known to the Greeks as The Garden of the Mother of God (To perivoli tis Panaghias).

While she is known as the Abbess of Athos, to show her in a mantle, and of the type worn by male clergy or archimandrites, is not correct. The Abbess title is figurative, not literal, so she should be shown in her conventional garb. Moreover, obscuring her clothing robs the image of much of the symbolism of her garments. Here is a more acceptable version, though it would have been even better if there was a motif of Christ present somewhere, either in the upper border, or in an upper corner:


 

LizaSymonenko

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LBK said:
While she is known as the Abbess of Athos, to show her in a mantle, and of the type worn by male clergy or archimandrites, is not correct. The Abbess title is figurative, not literal, so she should be shown in her conventional garb. Moreover, obscuring her clothing robs the image of much of the symbolism of her garments.
Thanks for the explanation LBK.  I was also just a bit worried about the bishop's robes, so someone doesn't interpret or refer to it, as approving of a female clergy.
 

LBK

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LizaSymonenko said:
LBK said:
While she is known as the Abbess of Athos, to show her in a mantle, and of the type worn by male clergy or archimandrites, is not correct. The Abbess title is figurative, not literal, so she should be shown in her conventional garb. Moreover, obscuring her clothing robs the image of much of the symbolism of her garments.
Thanks for the explanation LBK.  I was also just a bit worried about the bishop's robes, so someone doesn't interpret or refer to it, as approving of a female clergy.
The implication that the Mother of God is a cleric is a major problem in showing her in a mantiya. There's a weird Russian one I have on file where the Mother of God is shown fully vested, holding a chalice, with the inscription Bestower of the Gifts. Blatant heresy.
 

mike

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LBK said:
LizaSymonenko said:
LBK said:
While she is known as the Abbess of Athos, to show her in a mantle, and of the type worn by male clergy or archimandrites, is not correct. The Abbess title is figurative, not literal, so she should be shown in her conventional garb. Moreover, obscuring her clothing robs the image of much of the symbolism of her garments.
Thanks for the explanation LBK.  I was also just a bit worried about the bishop's robes, so someone doesn't interpret or refer to it, as approving of a female clergy.
The implication that the Mother of God is a cleric is a major problem in showing her in a mantiya. There's a weird Russian one I have on file where the Mother of God is shown fully vested, holding a chalice, with the inscription Bestower of the Gifts. Blatant heresy.
Are not ordained abbots not allowed to wear mantya? Arent abbesses not allowed to wear mantyas? They were pectoral crosses.
 

LBK

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Michał Kalina said:
LBK said:
LizaSymonenko said:
LBK said:
While she is known as the Abbess of Athos, to show her in a mantle, and of the type worn by male clergy or archimandrites, is not correct. The Abbess title is figurative, not literal, so she should be shown in her conventional garb. Moreover, obscuring her clothing robs the image of much of the symbolism of her garments.
Thanks for the explanation LBK.  I was also just a bit worried about the bishop's robes, so someone doesn't interpret or refer to it, as approving of a female clergy.
The implication that the Mother of God is a cleric is a major problem in showing her in a mantiya. There's a weird Russian one I have on file where the Mother of God is shown fully vested, holding a chalice, with the inscription Bestower of the Gifts. Blatant heresy.
Are not ordained abbots not allowed to wear mantya? Arent abbesses not allowed to wear mantyas? They were pectoral crosses.
An archimandrite wears one with the rectangular panels, but without the episcopal stripes. The mantiya of an abbess is plain black. The Mother of God in the image Liza posted is wearing an episcopal mantiya, which is completely wrong.
 

ialmisry

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LBK said:
Michał Kalina said:
LBK said:
LizaSymonenko said:
LBK said:
While she is known as the Abbess of Athos, to show her in a mantle, and of the type worn by male clergy or archimandrites, is not correct. The Abbess title is figurative, not literal, so she should be shown in her conventional garb. Moreover, obscuring her clothing robs the image of much of the symbolism of her garments.
Thanks for the explanation LBK.  I was also just a bit worried about the bishop's robes, so someone doesn't interpret or refer to it, as approving of a female clergy.
The implication that the Mother of God is a cleric is a major problem in showing her in a mantiya. There's a weird Russian one I have on file where the Mother of God is shown fully vested, holding a chalice, with the inscription Bestower of the Gifts. Blatant heresy.
Are not ordained abbots not allowed to wear mantya? Arent abbesses not allowed to wear mantyas? They were pectoral crosses.
An archimandrite wears one with the rectangular panels, but without the episcopal stripes. The mantiya of an abbess is plain black. The Mother of God in the image Liza posted is wearing an episcopal mantiya, which is completely wrong.
Yeah, I saw that strange thing awhile ago. I thought the Episcopalians had taken over.
 

Mor Ephrem

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The cover of the July-September 2013 edition of Georgian Mirror, an Indian Orthodox publication, depicts an icon of the Hospitality of Abraham done in a South Indian style. 

The caption at the bottom translates (roughly) as "Vision of the Trinity", but I welcome corrections. 

I tried uploading the image to this thread, but Mr Computer told me that the upload folder was full and so no attachment could go through.  The link above should work. 
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
The cover of the July-September 2013 edition of Georgian Mirror, an Indian Orthodox publication, depicts an icon of the Hospitality of Abraham done in a South Indian style. 

The caption at the bottom translates (roughly) as "Vision of the Trinity", but I welcome corrections. 

I tried uploading the image to this thread, but Mr Computer told me that the upload folder was full and so no attachment could go through.  The link above should work. 
On one hand, I'm fairly sure they didn't use vazhela plates to eat rice and curry back in Ancient Caanan. But then again I don't think the nomadic herdsmen of that time would carry around wooden tables as depicted in Fr. Rublev's icon either.

PS, what does the inscription along the side say? I think the first word is "Abrahaminte" but it's really hard to tell.
 

Mor Ephrem

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sheenj said:
PS, what does the inscription along the side say? I think the first word is "Abrahaminte" but it's really hard to tell.
അതിഥിസല്‍ക്കാരം (athitthisalkaaram): hospitality (lit. "the serving of the guests")
 

Nephi

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Mor Ephrem said:
The cover of the July-September 2013 edition of Georgian Mirror, an Indian Orthodox publication, depicts an icon of the Hospitality of Abraham done in a South Indian style. 

The caption at the bottom translates (roughly) as "Vision of the Trinity", but I welcome corrections. 

I tried uploading the image to this thread, but Mr Computer told me that the upload folder was full and so no attachment could go through.  The link above should work. 
Very neat. Is this a recent thing (hence strange icons thread, I guess), or are there actually some interpretations of the Hospitality of Abraham as Trinitarian in the OO Churches?
 

Mor Ephrem

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We regard the appearance of the three angels to Abraham as a type of the Trinity, that interpretation is quite traditional.  This icon, on the other hand, is a modern, South Indian version of the Byzantine icon of this subject.  AFAIK, Byzantine style iconography and Indian adaptations thereof are a recent phenomenon in India (~30-40 years?). 
 

Dominika

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Just a bit strange - I've never before seen such type of icon of st. Matrona
 

LBK

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Dominika said:
Just a bit strange - I've never before seen such type of icon of st. Matrona
This is not meant to be an icon in its own right, but is part of a "life" icon - the saint is shown in a large central panel, surrounded by smaller panels, each panel showing a scene from the saint's life.
 

Dominika

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LBK said:
This is not meant to be an icon in its own right, but is part of a "life" icon - the saint is shown in a large central panel, surrounded by smaller panels, each panel showing a scene from the saint's life.
I forgot about this case, as I'd seen it alone. Now it's explained, thank you :)
 

hecma925

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Nephi said:
That looks suspiciously like an image of the "Perfect Freemason" I saw in my father-in-law's Freemason History book.  I'll see if I can rustle up a photo.
 

Nephi

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Mor Ephrem said:
What on earth is that thing?
I think it's the sun, so nothing on earth. :angel:

Anyway, it's from the Bulgarian Rila Monastery which otherwise has some of the most beautiful stuff I've ever seen pictures of.
 

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JamesR said:


/thread

inb4crazyoldbrainwashedrussianscomein
Ah, ha. This is the one Christopher Hitchens must have been going on about.
 
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