Strange icons

LBK

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LizaSymonenko said:
LBK said:
LizaSymonenko said:
...and one more that was just posted on Facebook by a priestly friend.



I understand it's Tzar Nicholas, but, why is he holding the world, and why the crown of thorns?  It's as if he's being depicted as Christ.    .... I did notice the tiny crown above his head, and now know what that means thanks to LBK's post above!  :D

LBK said:
The crowns above the buildings on the left and right are a motif expressing martyrdom (the expression "crown of martyrdom" ...
Ah, yes, another product of the fevered imaginations of Russian ultranationalist ultramonarchist brigade, who regard the assassination of Tsar Nicholas as a "redeeming sacrifice", in the same way Christ's sacrifice redeems mankind. Vile, heretical rubbish. Schlock of the worst kind.
Thank you.  I had thought the same thing....but, wanted to make sure it wasn't the Ukrainian in me imagining things.  :D
I've posted another image in similar vein in the "Schlock icons" thread, as is more appropriate  ;) :

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,47878.msg896367.html#msg896367
 

Dominika

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From the website of the Finnish Orthodox Church. I have no idea who is depicted here.
 

Gebre Menfes Kidus

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LizaSymonenko said:
....so, what about this one?




....and is it okay for the Theotokos to wear the "crown"?  I've heard that is a RC invention, and that the Orthodox shun away from placing a crown on her head?

Is that true?
Wow! That's beautiful.

We have Icons portraying St. Mary with a crown in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.






Selam

 

LBK

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Dominika said:
From the website of the Finnish Orthodox Church. I have no idea who is depicted here.
http://www.ortodoksi.net/index.php/Musta_Saara

I tried a machine translation of the page this image was on, but it's still pretty incomprehensible.

Calling Alpo! :D
 

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LBK said:
http://www.ortodoksi.net/index.php/Musta_Saara

I tried a machine translation of the page this image was on, but it's still pretty incomprehensible.

Calling Alpo! :D
Saint Sarah, also known as Sara-la-Kali ("Sara the Black", Romani: Sara e Kali), is the mythic patron saint of the Roma (Gypsy) people. The center of her veneration is Saintes-Maries-de-la-Mer, a place of pilgrimage for Roma in the Camargue, in southern France. Legend identifies her as the servant of one of the Three Marys, with whom she is supposed to have arrived in the Camargue.[1]
This is apparently her - the two statues on the Wiki and the page you linked are the same.

And it seems scholars don't like her that much:

Some authors have drawn parallels between the ceremonies of the pilgrimage and the worship of the Hindu goddess Kali, subsequently identifying the two.[4] Ronald Lee (2001) states:
If we compare the ceremonies with those performed in France at the shrine of Sainte Sara (called Sara e Kali in Romani), we become aware that the worship of Kali/Durga/Sara has been transferred to a Christian figure... in France, to a non-existent "sainte" called Sara, who is actually part of the Kali/Durga/Sara worship among certain groups in India.
 

Dominika

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Nephi said:
LBK said:
http://www.ortodoksi.net/index.php/Musta_Saara

I tried a machine translation of the page this image was on, but it's still pretty incomprehensible.

Calling Alpo! :D
Saint Sarah, also known as Sara-la-Kali ("Sara the Black", Romani: Sara e Kali), is the mythic patron saint of the Roma (Gypsy) people. The center of her veneration is Saintes-Maries-de-la-Mer, a place of pilgrimage for Roma in the Camargue, in southern France. Legend identifies her as the servant of one of the Three Marys, with whom she is supposed to have arrived in the Camargue.[1]
This is apparently her - the two statues on the Wiki and the page you linked are the same.

And it seems scholars don't like her that much:

Some authors have drawn parallels between the ceremonies of the pilgrimage and the worship of the Hindu goddess Kali, subsequently identifying the two.[4] Ronald Lee (2001) states:
If we compare the ceremonies with those performed in France at the shrine of Sainte Sara (called Sara e Kali in Romani), we become aware that the worship of Kali/Durga/Sara has been transferred to a Christian figure... in France, to a non-existent "sainte" called Sara, who is actually part of the Kali/Durga/Sara worship among certain groups in India.
Thank you for these quotations.

So now it explains the earrings in this icon (or "icon"  ???), but it stills not being explained why there is no headcovering (I can' bring now any example of a canonical icon that there is a woman without any headcovering). And I wonder what's written here.
 

LBK

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Dominika said:
So now it explains the earrings in this icon (or "icon"  ???), but it stills not being explained why there is no headcovering (I can' bring now any example of a canonical icon that there is a woman without any headcovering). And I wonder what's written here.
St Mary of Egypt is one.
 

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Dominika said:
Nephi said:
LBK said:
http://www.ortodoksi.net/index.php/Musta_Saara

I tried a machine translation of the page this image was on, but it's still pretty incomprehensible.

Calling Alpo! :D
Saint Sarah, also known as Sara-la-Kali ("Sara the Black", Romani: Sara e Kali), is the mythic patron saint of the Roma (Gypsy) people. The center of her veneration is Saintes-Maries-de-la-Mer, a place of pilgrimage for Roma in the Camargue, in southern France. Legend identifies her as the servant of one of the Three Marys, with whom she is supposed to have arrived in the Camargue.[1]
This is apparently her - the two statues on the Wiki and the page you linked are the same.

And it seems scholars don't like her that much:

Some authors have drawn parallels between the ceremonies of the pilgrimage and the worship of the Hindu goddess Kali, subsequently identifying the two.[4] Ronald Lee (2001) states:
If we compare the ceremonies with those performed in France at the shrine of Sainte Sara (called Sara e Kali in Romani), we become aware that the worship of Kali/Durga/Sara has been transferred to a Christian figure... in France, to a non-existent "sainte" called Sara, who is actually part of the Kali/Durga/Sara worship among certain groups in India.
Thank you for these quotations.

So now it explains the earrings in this icon (or "icon"  ???), but it stills not being explained why there is no headcovering (I can' bring now any example of a canonical icon that there is a woman without any headcovering). And I wonder what's written here.
I have seen icons of St. Katherine the Great Martyr depicted with earrings. It's not my favorite, but it's certainly not rare.

 

LBK

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Antonis said:
I have seen icons of St. Katherine the Great Martyr depicted with earrings. It's not my favorite, but it's certainly not rare.

Quite true. Many ancient icons and mosaics of St Catherine (and other female saints of noble birth or regal rank) show her wearing earrings, though they are far less obvious and distracting than those in the icon you posted. A famous one is from St Catherine's Monastery in Sinai, from the 13th century:

 

Antonis

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LBK said:
Antonis said:
I have seen icons of St. Katherine the Great Martyr depicted with earrings. It's not my favorite, but it's certainly not rare.

Quite true. Many ancient icons and mosaics of St Catherine (and other female saints of noble birth or regal rank) show her wearing earrings, though they are far less obvious and distracting than those in the icon you posted. A famous one is from St Catherine's Monastery in Sinai, from the 13th century:

Yea, most of the ones I have seen (such as the one on my church's iconostasis) show the earrings as smaller and more akin to the one you posted.
 

yeshuaisiam

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biro said:
This is somehow supposed to be the Trinity. I think.

I know it was an old post but -
Is this actually even an EO icon?

It looks COMPLETLY masonic.... Never seen one like this in an EO church or elsewhere...
Just curious.
 

LBK

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yeshuaisiam said:
biro said:
This is somehow supposed to be the Trinity. I think.

I know it was an old post but -
Is this actually even an EO icon?

It looks COMPLETLY masonic.... Never seen one like this in an EO church or elsewhere...
Just curious.
Not an icon at all, and has never been considered as one. It's a masonic painting.
 

LBK

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Michał Kalina said:


Another one hypercolor.

The Restoration of the Icons
, the festal icon of the Sunday of Orthodoxy. Nothing at all strange about it.

Hypercolor? What do you mean?  ???
 

LBK

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Michał Kalina said:
LBK said:
Hypercolor? What do you mean?  ???
Sweet pastel infantile coloristics. I'm not saying it's bad. I just don't like it.
The icon you posted has been painted on a church wall. How an icon shows up on a computer screen is often not how it looks in its actual surroundings. Image processing, the settings on one's computer screen, and even the type of computer monitor can affect color perception. CRTs (picture tubes) are superior to flat screens in reproducing accuracy of color, shade, saturation, etc.

A good iconographer will examine the size of a church and the light which enters it, how much light, and where it falls, and select his palette (range of colors) accordingly. A large church which is well-lit by natural light can accept a bolder, stronger intensity of colors; a smaller church with diffuse lighting would be better served with a softer, warmer color range.

EDIT: The icon posted is probably also very large in real life, very likely several yards/meters across. What makes its way onto a computer monitor is a more highly-saturated version of the actual icon, due to the much smaller size of the digital image relative to the original.
 

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LBK said:
Michał Kalina said:
LBK said:
Hypercolor? What do you mean?  ???
Sweet pastel infantile coloristics. I'm not saying it's bad. I just don't like it.
The icon you posted has been painted on a church wall. How an icon shows up on a computer screen is often not how it looks in its actual surroundings. Image processing, the settings on one's computer screen, and even the type of computer monitor can affect color perception. CRTs (picture tubes) are superior to flat screens in reproducing accuracy of color, shade, saturation, etc.

A good iconographer will examine the size of a church and the light which enters it, how much light, and where it falls, and select his palette (range of colors) accordingly. A large church which is well-lit by natural light can accept a bolder, stronger intensity of colors; a smaller church with diffuse lighting would be better served with a softer, warmer color range.

EDIT: The icon posted is probably also very large in real life, very likely several yards/meters across. What makes its way onto a computer monitor is a more highly-saturated version of the actual icon, due to the much smaller size of the digital image relative to the original.
I would venture to guess that this acrylic painted either on canvass and glued onto the wall or possibly acrylic painted directly on the wall.  While I'm not an artist and don't really know jack, my parish is in the process (a long at that - pay as you go and I hope the iconographer is healthy enough in his life to finish the church) of real frescoes on the walls.  Real frescoes (if it is not the following, then it is just a mural) have the base painting done in about a 12-hour window directly on wet plaster.  The plaster itself is the binder for the pigment and when totally dry becomes chemically the same as marble.  The details are added in the following days, where the initial period (12-24 hours approx after the 12-hour window) can be in between fresco and secco, while afterwards is secco I think using egg tempera.  This is the time-tested method for painting churches that are hundreds of years old with enduring frescoes.  At least currently in America, most "frescoes" and even panel icons are done in acrylic, with the wall panels usually done on canvas in a studio then glued onto the walls.  From what I have been told, painting in acrylic can be done much faster than traditional methods like fresco and egg tempera, allowing the iconographer to "produce" a lot more work.  Unfortunately, as Michal says, since acrylic is a synthetic paint that is only 50 or so years old, it is not time tested and moreso, looks rather bright and garish (although I'm told it can be made more subdued if intended) in comparison to traditional methods.  There is a beautiful Serbian church in the Sacramento area that I have sung a couple of concerts at.  It appears they did acrylic directly on dry-plastered walls and there is damage, I believe from water/rain leaks, in the pendentives.  Frescoes would be resistant from this type of water leaks for the most part.
 

LBK

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since acrylic is a synthetic paint that is only 50 or so years old, it is not time tested and moreso, looks rather bright and garish
Do not think that egg tempera is automatically more subdued in tone than acrylics. We are used to seeing old tempera icons under a layer of darkened olifa varnish, and centuries-old frescoes and murals (any painting, not just iconography) under decades or centuries of soot and grime, whether or not a top coat of varnish has been applied. The work of art restorers and conservators constantly proves this.
 

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Alveus Lacuna said:
ag_vn said:
I wish I could see the outside of the building better. This looks super occult from a distance. What is it depicting?
I was watching a Russian show this evening called Battle of the Prophets (Around minute 30 in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qK2iK-hFD6Q), which compares various modern day prophets.
It compared/contrasted the canonized Matrona of Moscow with Vanga of Bulgaria, noting that they were both blind. It said that Vanga had a large following, was treated very well by the government even during the era promoting scientific materialism. Patriarch Alexei II presided at her funeral and a little body part(?) from her that was specially kept did not decay.

It adds that she was not canonized due to the issue with the ikons that you and others posted on page two of this thread. They (or at least the Trinity one) were considered Masonic ikons and that there was a religious problem with the depiction of the Trinity as a result. A person interviewed who was close to Vanga claimed that the  (or his backers?) took people's money donations and built the ikons in this way without people or Vanga expecting this. It claims towards the end of the clip (about minute 37) that the clergy were forced to consecrate the chapel/church after refusing to do so.

MK was here
 
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