Strange icons

LBK

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Savior of the Huge Hands (and a bad case of sunburn):

 

LBK

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He could also do with more sleep .....
 

dhinuus

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Does anyone know what the Holy Theotokos is holding in her right hand?    Is that the green cedar tree from the flag of Lebanon ?  If so what is the significance of that?



 

LenInSebastopol

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dhinuus said:
Does anyone know what the Holy Theotokos is holding in her right hand?    Is that the green cedar tree from the flag of Lebanon ?  If so what is the significance of that?



Pride in their country, Lebanon?
Ceder from Lebanon was also used in the First Temple and she is holding the Last Temple of Jerusalem?
 

Volnutt

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I kind of like this one. Does anyone know anything about it?


 

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Saint Mark of Efes defending the Holy Faith against the arch-heretic of Rome.

On the script that the saint is holding, it is written "Run away from the papists like you run away from the snakes."
 

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Pravoslavac said:


Saint Mark of Efes defending the Holy Faith against the arch-heretic of Rome.

On the script that the saint is holding, it is written "Run away from the papists like you run away from the snakes."
Maybe somebody can help me with this one, because I can't remember if I have ever heard a definite answer before. Is the depiction of saints trampling down heretics uncanonical? Because I seem to remember reading that the prober way of depicting heretics is with them having demons besides them.
 

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Icon of Jasenovac Martyrs. Icon depicts hundreds of thousands of Orthodox Christian martyrs killed by Ustashe and Roman-Catholic clergy in world war 2, Yugoslavia. Jasenovac was largest death camp.
 

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Ansgar said:
Pravoslavac said:


Saint Mark of Efes defending the Holy Faith against the arch-heretic of Rome.

On the script that the saint is holding, it is written "Run away from the papists like you run away from the snakes."
Maybe somebody can help me with this one, because I can't remember if I have ever heard a definite answer before. Is the depiction of saints trampling down heretics uncanonical? Because I seem to remember reading that the prober way of depicting heretics is with them having demons besides them.
Is it not strange that the heretic is holding keys?

I'm guessing he has also pierced Scripture with a sword. Though why the book is black?

But the keys still in his hand makes me wonder?
 

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I've always been told using icons for polemical purposes like this is wrong.
 

Volnutt

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Pravoslavac said:


Icon of Jasenovac Martyrs. Icon depicts hundreds of thousands of Orthodox Christian martyrs killed by Ustashe and Roman-Catholic clergy in world war 2, Yugoslavia. Jasenovac was largest death camp.
Holy Martyrs, pray for us!  :'(
 

Anna.T

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Volnutt said:
I've always been told using icons for polemical purposes like this is wrong.
I wondered about that too. I've never seen any, as I recall.
 

Volnutt

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Anna.T said:
Volnutt said:
I've always been told using icons for polemical purposes like this is wrong.
I wondered about that too. I've never seen any, as I recall.
There's the delightful nuttiness of the add-on to the traditional Mystical Ark of Salvation icon to include the Pope, Luther, and international Jewry shooting at the Church.

 

LBK

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Ansgar said:
Pravoslavac said:


Saint Mark of Efes defending the Holy Faith against the arch-heretic of Rome.

On the script that the saint is holding, it is written "Run away from the papists like you run away from the snakes."
Maybe somebody can help me with this one, because I can't remember if I have ever heard a definite answer before. Is the depiction of saints trampling down heretics uncanonical? Because I seem to remember reading that the prober way of depicting heretics is with them having demons besides them.
This image is an angry propaganda piece, not an icon. It is no more suitable for veneration than the infamous "ark of salvation" painting which shows the "enemies of Orthodoxy" attempting to divert and destroy The Good Ship Orthodoxy.

The St Mark of Ephesus image has been discussed in another thread a few years ago, IIRC.
 

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Volnutt said:
Anna.T said:
Volnutt said:
I've always been told using icons for polemical purposes like this is wrong.
I wondered about that too. I've never seen any, as I recall.
There's the delightful nuttiness of the add-on to the traditional Mystical Ark of Salvation icon to include the Pope, Luther, and international Jewry shooting at the Church.


Ah ..... Hmmmmm.

Not sure how to react to that. Should it include the many denominations of Protestantism? But in general, the Protestants I know are mostly not seeking to destroy the Church. They simply have never met her. Yet they profess Christ and seek after Him.
 

LBK

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Folks might find this old post useful:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11209.msg297730.html#msg297730

No, that icon should not be venerated. It is simply a polemical propaganda piece, promoting a particular ecclesiopolitical ideology. Some food for thought:

Iconography is, above all else, concerned with the revelation of God in Trinity: of the incarnation of the Son and Word of God which has allowed the sanctification of fallen creation (matter), including humanity (made in the image of God)**; of the signs and wonders of the Divine revelation in both the Old and New Testament periods; and, in its portrayal of the saints, their transfiguration from mere men and women into those who have attained deification, a "oneness with God" and full participation of the heavenly life with God and in God, through the conduct of their earthly lives and their steadfast witness to the true faith. They have become true icons and reflections of the Divine. The word godly is most apt to describe them.

(** St John of Damascus sums this up beautifully: "Of old, the incorporeal and uncircumscribed God was not depicted at all. But now that God has appeared in the flesh and lived among men, I make an image of God who can be seen. I do not worship matter, but I worship the Creator of matter, who through matter effected my salvation. I will not cease to venerate the matter through which my salvation has been effected.")

Secondly, in the same way that the saints have obliterated their passions to give themselves completely to God, icons must also reflect this dispassionate quality. Obvious displays of human emotions, even a “positive” one such as laughter, are considered to be manifestations of human passion, and therefore have no place in iconography. Christ’s kingdom is “not of this world” (John 18: 36), therefore the portrayal of saints in their spiritually transformed state must be dispassionate. This also applies to church singing and reading; the singers and readers are there to glorify God and serve the church by their efforts, not to self-aggrandize. Even the display of sorrow in the face of a saint or the Mother of God should be kept subtle, with the emotion conveyed with the eyes, not through histrionics.

Thirdly, there must be complete agreement between scripture, liturgical content (which represents the distillation of the doctrinal, dogmatic and theological position of the Church), and the pictorial content of an icon for any icon to be deemed canonical.

Hence there is no place for ugliness, anger, enmity, and other negative emotions in iconography. The purpose of an icon is to draw us closer to God. Of course, there are specific examples of didactic icons, such as Last Judgement and Ladder of Divine Ascent which feature fearsome dragon-like creatures swallowing unrepentant evildoers. The Resurrection icon shows the personification of sin and death bound in chains in the abyss. It may be said, therefore, if there is room for such portrayals in these canonical icons, then why object to the presence of the figures in the Ark of Salvation image?

I offer this reply: An icon is a material, tangible expression of the incarnate God. The iconographic portrayal of the saints as icons of Christ, then, should reflect the sanctity, dispassion and boundless compassionate mercy of Christ to those who repent of their sins. Do we not pray to the saints and the Mother of God to intercede on our behalf? Are we not exhorted to pray for our enemies, to love them, and not to hate them? Of all scripture passages on this theme, Matt. 5: 43-48 is perhaps the most useful and succinct:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

We are also assured that God is Love, and that His love and mercy are available to all who seek Him in true faith. There are petitions in various Orthodox litanies which ask for the repentance and return to the true faith of sinners, apostates, and, yes, enemies. One which immediately comes to mind is "Let us pray for those who love us, and those who hate us", a petition in the litany sung towards the end of the Great Compline services of Great Lent where the Canon of St Andrew of Crete is sung.

There is the question of the iconographic portrayal of prophets and saints who denounced kings and princes. Such scenes are found in the smaller panels of a "life" icon of a saint or prophet (an icon which has a large central panel of the saint or prophet, surrounded by a series of smaller panels showing scenes of his or her life). Keeping to the dispassionate nature of icons, these scenes of rebuke of kings and princes (such as in icons of Prophet Elijah, and any number of OT and NT saints and righteous ones) show the saint standing before the errant ruler with a hand raised in rebuke, but nothing more. It is also significant that such scenes, almost without exception, are never used as icons in their own right.

it is not surprising that certain schismatic groups have favoured this so-called Ark of Salvation image as it reflects their particular ideology. This image suggests that those who are not Orthodox are somehow beyond repentance and redemption. Can we really agree with this as Orthodox Christians? The persecuting Pharisee Saul openly boasted of his zeal and success in persecuting Christians, yet, by the grace of God, became one of the Princes of the Apostles, a pillar of Orthodoxy. There are also innumerable converts to the Orthodox faith who have come from every religious background imaginable, including atheism, paganism and communism; many who have become saints, in times of old, and in our present day. The grace of God knows no bounds.

Iconography, as I have said before, must never be used for political or ideological purposes. To portray the non-Orthodox as a whole as being irredeemable and in league with demonic and evil forces to destroy Orthodoxy is a shameful debasement of iconography. I am reminded of a reply to a convert to Orthodoxy as to how he came to the conclusion that the Orthodox faith was the true faith: "The Soviet Union was capable of destroying anything. Yet, despite its immense power and resources, it could not destroy the Orthodox Church. So that was good enough for me." The gates of hell cannot prevail, indeed ...
 

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Here is another one, saint Mark of Ephesus trampling the pope of Rome, with saint Justin Popovich (right) and saint bishop Nikolai Velimirovich (left) and Lord Jesus Christ above all.
 

LBK

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Pravoslavac said:


Here is another one, saint Mark of Ephesus trampling the pope of Rome, with saint Justin Popovich (right) and saint bishop Nikolai Velimirovich (left) and Lord Jesus Christ above all.
It still doesn't make such imagery right or suitable for veneration. Iconography should never be corrupted by polemics or anger. The saying written between Sts Justin and Nikolai should not be there, either.
 

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LBK said:
Pravoslavac said:


Here is another one, saint Mark of Ephesus trampling the pope of Rome, with saint Justin Popovich (right) and saint bishop Nikolai Velimirovich (left) and Lord Jesus Christ above all.
It still doesn't make such imagery right or suitable for veneration. Iconography should never be corrupted by polemics or anger. The saying written between Sts Justin and Nikolai should not be there, either.
I think in days of dirty ecumenism business, we need few icons like this. It is reminder, not polemics or anger.
 

LBK

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Pravoslavac said:
I think in days of dirty ecumenism business, we need few icons like this. It is reminder, not polemics or anger.
No, Pravoslavac, it is not. The image is angry and polemical. False beliefs and other "dirty business" contrary to Orthodoxy have always been around. Please go back and read reply #863. It explains why such images are not proper icons.
 

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LBK said:
Pravoslavac said:
I think in days of dirty ecumenism business, we need few icons like this. It is reminder, not polemics or anger.
No, Pravoslavac, it is not. The image is angry and polemical. False beliefs and other "dirty business" contrary to Orthodoxy have always been around. Please go back and read reply #863. It explains why such images are not proper icons.
Saints are depicted on their icons together with their known achievements, saint Mark of Ephesus's achievement is victory over ecumenism and pope's plot. Saint George is depicted killing the dragon, meaning he defeated Roman torture, etc... Most saints of the 20th century were against ecumenism, clearly God has celebrated them. When the faith is defended, that is not anger, People are brainwashed that if someone is defending his faith, that he is full of hate.
 

LBK

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Pravoslavac said:
LBK said:
Pravoslavac said:
I think in days of dirty ecumenism business, we need few icons like this. It is reminder, not polemics or anger.
No, Pravoslavac, it is not. The image is angry and polemical. False beliefs and other "dirty business" contrary to Orthodoxy have always been around. Please go back and read reply #863. It explains why such images are not proper icons.
Saints are depicted on their icons together with their known achievements, saint Mark of Ephesus's achievement is victory over ecumenism and pope's plot. Saint George is depicted killing the dragon, meaning he defeated Roman torture, etc... Most saints of the 20th century were against ecumenism, clearly God has celebrated them. When the faith is defended, that is not anger, People are brainwashed that if someone is defending his faith, that he is full of hate.
There is a world of difference between the iconography of Sts George, St Demetrius, and other saints who triumphed over evil, and the picture you posted, which speaks of anger and the irredeemability of those in the Roman Catholic church. Are you saying that Roman Catholics are beyond salvation, simply because they are Roman Catholics?
 

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LBK said:
Pravoslavac said:
LBK said:
Pravoslavac said:
I think in days of dirty ecumenism business, we need few icons like this. It is reminder, not polemics or anger.
No, Pravoslavac, it is not. The image is angry and polemical. False beliefs and other "dirty business" contrary to Orthodoxy have always been around. Please go back and read reply #863. It explains why such images are not proper icons.
Saints are depicted on their icons together with their known achievements, saint Mark of Ephesus's achievement is victory over ecumenism and pope's plot. Saint George is depicted killing the dragon, meaning he defeated Roman torture, etc... Most saints of the 20th century were against ecumenism, clearly God has celebrated them. When the faith is defended, that is not anger, People are brainwashed that if someone is defending his faith, that he is full of hate.
There is a world of difference between the iconography of Sts George, St Demetrius, and other saints who triumphed over evil, and the picture you posted, which speaks of anger and the irredeemability of those in the Roman Catholic church. Are you saying that Roman Catholics are beyond salvation, simply because they are Roman Catholics?
Every heresy is evil, so is Roman-Catholic heresy. And what happens to un-Orthodox and how are they saved, we don't know. God is merciful.
 

LBK

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Heresy is indeed evil, but angry, polemical paintings which look like icons are not the proper way to fight it.

And what happens to un-Orthodox and how are they saved, we don't know. God is merciful.
I, and I'm sure, most others here, completely agree with this.

So how can you justify an "icon" which shows Roman Catholics as cursed and about to be cast into hell? Those who paint such "icons" are putting themselves as the judges of the Roman Catholics as if they know how God will judge them. Can you now see why such paintings are false icons?
 

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LBK said:
Heresy is indeed evil, but angry, polemical paintings which look like icons are not the proper way to fight it.

And what happens to un-Orthodox and how are they saved, we don't know. God is merciful.
I, and I'm sure, most others here, completely agree with this.

So how can you justify an "icon" which shows Roman Catholics as cursed and about to be cast into hell? Those who paint such "icons" are putting themselves as the judges of the Roman Catholics as if they know how God will judge them. Can you now see why such paintings are false icons?
What do you think, what happened to all those heretics that were creating schisms and spreading heresies, the heretics that were defeated at Ecumenical Councils? Are they going to end up in heaven? And when pope is painted that he is about to be cast into hell, that also means his heresy does that too.
 

LBK

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Pravoslavac said:
LBK said:
Heresy is indeed evil, but angry, polemical paintings which look like icons are not the proper way to fight it.

And what happens to un-Orthodox and how are they saved, we don't know. God is merciful.
I, and I'm sure, most others here, completely agree with this.

So how can you justify an "icon" which shows Roman Catholics as cursed and about to be cast into hell? Those who paint such "icons" are putting themselves as the judges of the Roman Catholics as if they know how God will judge them. Can you now see why such paintings are false icons?
What do you think, what happened to all those heretics that were creating schisms and spreading heresies, the heretics that were defeated at Ecumenical Councils? Are they going to end up in heaven? And when pope is painted that he is about to be cast into hell, that also means his heresy does that too.
You haven't read post #863 on this page, have you? If you haven't, please go and read it again. Carefully.
 

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I agree that showing the Pope being cast into Hell is too much, but the second image doesn't do that

Also, there's some pretty harsh imprecation against entire nations in the Psalms and Prophets. The Hymns of Holy Saturday also turn on the blast furnace against Judas and "the Jews" (however that's construed).

 

LBK

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Volnutt said:
This particular image doesn't show the Pope being cast into Hell.

Also, there's some pretty harsh imprecation against entire nations in the Psalms and Prophets. The Hymns of Holy Saturday also turn on the blast furnace against Judas and "the Jews" (however that's construed).
The hymns of Holy Week might treat the Sanhedrin and Judas harshly, but never do they openly condemn them as beyond redemption. Their redemption or otherwise is in God's hands, not ours. By contrast, the painters of images such as the "ark of salvation" and the ones posted by Pravoslavac have already passed judgement on the RCC.

On "entire nations" being condemned in the OT, a careful look at the Great Canon of St Andrew of Crete is quite instructive.
 

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Volnutt said:
I agree that showing the Pope being cast into Hell is too much, but the second image doesn't do that

Also, there's some pretty harsh imprecation against entire nations in the Psalms and Prophets. The Hymns of Holy Saturday also turn on the blast furnace against Judas and "the Jews" (however that's construed).
Since icons are supposed to be windows into eternity, the implication (probably not one the artist was aware of) would be that the pope depicted is eternally underfoot (yes, probably in hell).
 

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There is an offensive Ethiopian ikon from the 14th century of the Virgin beating Jesus.
http://www.mybestcv.co.il/TextPage_EN.aspx?ID=10073843
It's heretical because Jesus was sinless and thus wouldn't be beaten by the Virgin unless it was her own sin to do so. The web page claims that there are gnostic or apocryphal stories of her doing this.

 
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