Strange icons

mabsoota

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in coptic tradition, we have many old icons of the 'flight to egypt' with saint mary, saint joseph and our Lord Jesus.
for example here:
http://www.juancole.com/2013/12/coptic-artwork-picture.html

is this ok from the EO iconography point of view?
 

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kelly said:
St. Joseph is so underappreciated in Orthodoxy. Makes me sad.
Good point, Kelly. He's very meaningful to me, as an older man with a rather-unexpected family, and I often ask him to pray for me.
 

kelly

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Porter ODoran said:
kelly said:
St. Joseph is so underappreciated in Orthodoxy. Makes me sad.
Good point, Kelly. He's very meaningful to me, as an older man with a rather-unexpected family, and I often ask him to pray for me.
He was stepfather to God Incarnate - that's a huge deal.
 

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And his response to the high calling was one of great patience and self-sacrifice unusual among family men. Something exemplary, that should be often put before us (I edited to add).
 

LBK

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mabsoota said:
in coptic tradition, we have many old icons of the 'flight to egypt' with saint mary, saint joseph and our Lord Jesus.
for example here:
http://www.juancole.com/2013/12/coptic-artwork-picture.html

is this ok from the EO iconography point of view?
Nothing wrong with it at all. A lovely icon, Mabsoota!
 

LBK

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hecma925 said:

This one, no.


This one's good.
Precisely.  :)

For those who feel St Joseph is given short shrift by the Orthodox, this is not the case. He is present in icons of the Nativity and the Meeting of the Lord, which are present in every Orthodox church in the world. Many churches also feature the Flight into Egypt, and the first Sunday after the Nativity is dedicated to him, along with King David and St James the Brother of the Lord.

The highly visible western veneration of St Joseph dates only to about the 16th century, through the efforts of St Theresa of Avila.
 

kelly

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I guess I just don't get why there can't be icons of St. Joseph as an individual as opposed to being  a tiny character in two festal icons. Sts. Joachim and Anna get more attention than poor St. Joseph and we know a lot more about Joseph than we do about them.
 

FatherHLL

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mabsoota said:
in coptic tradition, we have many old icons of the 'flight to egypt' with saint mary, saint joseph and our Lord Jesus.
for example here:
http://www.juancole.com/2013/12/coptic-artwork-picture.html

is this ok from the EO iconography point of view?
Of course!
 

LBK

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kelly said:
I guess I just don't get why there can't be icons of St. Joseph as an individual as opposed to being  a tiny character in two festal icons. Sts. Joachim and Anna get more attention than poor St. Joseph and we know a lot more about Joseph than we do about them.
There are indeed proper, canonical icons of St Joseph. He may be holding a scroll bearing the incarnational prophecy of of Isaiah 7:14, and/or a pair of turtle-doves (the sacrificial offering he brought to the Temple 40 days after Christ's birth), and/or a staff which has sprouted, reflecting the means by which he was chosen to be the betrothed of young Virgin.

What he should not be doing is holding the Christ-child, in the manner of icons of the Mother of God. This is a major theological and iconographic error.

Yet again, I offer to email to anyone who is interested an article on the iconography of St Joseph, from the liturgical, historical and doctrinal tradition of the Church.  :)
 

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Yes I would like to see that LBK! My e-mail address is in my profile. I also want to get one of the icons you describe.
 

LBK

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Oh, yes indeed.

The second one is by the Jesuit priest and Robert Lentz protégé , William Hart McNichols.

Ugh.  :p :p
 

Anna.T

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hecma925 said:
A good one


A bad one
Wow, I don't know much and that makes a VERY distinct comparison for me! On a number of points!

I have to wonder WHY someone would paint something like the second one? (Just a rhetorical - not actual - question.)
 

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The thrust of the two could not be more different. In the first, he's a patient servant standing to the side of events, spending his old age in self-sacrifice. In the second, he usurps all the rights and beauties of the Theotokos.
 

LBK

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I have to wonder WHY someone would paint something like the second one? (Just a rhetorical - not actual - question.)
In the case of this particular artist and his mentor, it is pride that he knows better than iconographic tradition, not because of honest ignorance.  :p
 

LBK

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genesisone said:
Porter ODoran said:
In the second, he usurps all the rights and beauties of the Theotokos.
Even worse, I'm seeing shades of father, son, and holy spirit. (lack of capitalization intended)
Quite right. The artist has appropriated an existing uncanonical composition, known as Otechestvo (Paternity), and further compounded the heresy:



 

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genesisone said:
Porter ODoran said:
In the second, he usurps all the rights and beauties of the Theotokos.
Even worse, I'm seeing shades of father, son, and holy spirit. (lack of capitalization intended)
Wow I did not catch that. A natural step to take if you doubt Christ's birth of a virgin, however.
 

Anna.T

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LBK said:
genesisone said:
Porter ODoran said:
In the second, he usurps all the rights and beauties of the Theotokos.
Even worse, I'm seeing shades of father, son, and holy spirit. (lack of capitalization intended)
Quite right. The artist has appropriated an existing uncanonical composition, known as Otechestvo (Paternity), and further compounded the heresy:

Wow.  I had not seen the Otechestvo, but yes that is disturbing on SO many levels.

Who is the figure in the lower right of the Otechestvo? I feel like I shouldn't even be asking, but I would like to know?
 
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