Strange icons

88Devin12

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Michał Kalina said:
88Devin12 said:
You don't and can't "venerate" every icon, we offer them honor and veneration, but unless you are extremely tall, I doubt you can venerate the Pantocrator up in the dome. ;)
I've read somewhere there is a difference between icons and icon-like paintings on other objcects like wall or vestments.

I'm simply saying that just because you use an icon in an anti-abortion campaign doesn't make it wrong,
It was created for that purpose.

should we stop putting photos of icons in books, calendars and cards?
I'd love that happen.

Why not take it further and stop people from printing icons on paper? Or stop them from painting on canvas and gluing them to the walls of churches? How far do we take this somewhat extreme legalism regarding icons?
We are not discussing here materials used for icons but icons being used for non-veneration actions, are we?
Do we take it as far as the Old Believers sometimes do?
What they do?
Is there evidence that this icon was created for the anti-infanticide campaign? Why does it matter if it was created for that? It is still an icon, and it created for a holy purpose, to help illustrate the undeniable theology fact that those are human beings in the womb and we are murdering them with abortion. The abortion issue IS a theological issue because those who say a fetus isn't a person are therefore blaspheming Christ.

It's all the same debate, what are icons and what purpose are they for.

The Old Believers take icon "veneration" to near worship and fall into pharisaism an legalism with regard to icons and other aspects of the faith.

I've never read that there is a difference between icons on boards and icons on walls.
 

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myrrhbear said:
biro said:
This is somehow supposed to be the Trinity. I think.




This is 'Holy Silence.' Not exactly sure why it copies some elements of the Virgin of the Sign.




This is, somehow, the Ancient of Days and the Holy Spirit. Maybe. Er....




'Angel Countenance.' Angels are normally depicted as male.  :-\




'Angel of the Sign.' With all respect, an angel did not give birth to Jesus.  ???




There were weirder ones. I would like to see a book on unusual icons, if only to show us what is not allowed and what is.
I'm not defending the Icon of Holy Silence as I don't know enough yet about icons so I do not intend to offend anyone or argue. However I watched the DVD "Theoria" which explains its meaning. It is based on the verses from Exodus 23:20 and refers to the Angel of God's Countenance, holding the sphere containing the Logos, the Name, the Word of God. It has to do with the Divine Revelation as it was to Moses, Abraham, and Jacob. Perhaps if anyone is really interested in delving deeper into the meaning of that one he should watch the dvd or contact the school which produced that particular one rather than criticize it right off the bat.
Just because an image, a feast, or anything else has some sort of deeper meaning derived from Scripture or anywhere else does not make it acceptable or traditional.
 

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LBK said:
Dominika said:
This image was produced for the purpose of using it as part of an anti-abortion campaign. Icons must never be used to promote social or political causes, even if such causes are good ones. God is above and beyond politics, and to turn a holy image into a sociopolitical mascot is nothing short of shameful.  :mad: :mad: :mad:
Are there Orthodox icons of the Visitation? That is, before the feast was added to the Western calendar? IIRC, it was a late addition and never made it on the Eastern calendar, except for the Eastern Catholics.
 

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88Devin12 said:
Is there evidence that this icon was created for the anti-infanticide campaign?
LBK said:
Read post #109. And the image posted here was painted by Christine Uveges, a Byzantine Catholic, and used in Right to Life marches and campaigns.
Why does it matter if it was created for that? It is still an icon, and it created for a holy purpose, to help illustrate the undeniable theology fact that those are human beings in the womb and we are murdering them with abortion. The abortion issue IS a theological issue because those who say a fetus isn't a person are therefore blaspheming Christ.
Political demonstrations are not "a holy purpose".

I've never read that there is a difference between icons on boards and icons on walls.
Uspyenski wrote about that.
 

88Devin12

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1191AD:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Embrace_of_Elizabeth_and_the_Virgin_Mary.jpg
 

LBK

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88Devin12 said:
1191AD:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Embrace_of_Elizabeth_and_the_Virgin_Mary.jpg
And not a fetus in sight. As is the case with every single icon of this event I've seen, other than the single example I mentioned in post #109. Coincidence? I think not. There is nothing random or accidental in Orthodox tradition. :police:
 

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Why does it matter if it was created for that? It is still an icon, and it created for a holy purpose, to help illustrate the undeniable theology fact that those are human beings in the womb and we are murdering them with abortion.
This is precisely the reasoning used by Robert Lentz, William Hart McNichols, and their protegees, to justify their "icons".
 

88Devin12

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LBK said:
88Devin12 said:
1191AD:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Embrace_of_Elizabeth_and_the_Virgin_Mary.jpg
And not a fetus in sight. As is the case with every single icon of this event I've seen, other than the single example I mentioned in post #109. Coincidence? I think not. There is nothing random or accidental in Orthodox tradition. :police:
I don't see how some of you think we should absolutely strictly adhere to iconographic depictions. By this, I mean that people seem to think that new types of icons or events that previously weren't depicted, or elements previously foreign to a a particular icon should be anathema.

If this were our attitude, we wouldn't have Rublev's Trinity or many other elements in our iconography. It's a living tradition whose canon is adhered to but can be expanded and evolved and added to.

I could imagine if we were discussing iconography 1800 years ago (with the mindset about icons of some living today) we'd be arguing whether or not the addition of a halo above Christs head was okay, or whether the depiction of Christ with long hair and a beard is okay, or whether the Emperor should be in an image with Christ. It didn't exist in Christian depictions of them before, so it shouldn't be done "now".

That kind of attitude is just silly, our iconographers aren't Amish-like, they are allowed to paint new things (within reason obviously).

Who cares if the fetus was t depicted before? Today we have to battle the heretical belief that you aren't a full human person until your birth. Is that not enough to show Christ was a full human person before his birth? We aren't just combating some regulation that is in favor of infanticide, we are combating heresy and blasphemy.

The prime function of icons isn't just for veneration or as windows to heaven, it is also to teach and show forth the Orthodox faith. Their FIRST function ever was as a teaching tool. We can point to this icon and say that no one can deny the full personhood of a fetus and be free of blasphemy.
 

88Devin12

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LBK said:
Why does it matter if it was created for that? It is still an icon, and it created for a holy purpose, to help illustrate the undeniable theology fact that those are human beings in the womb and we are murdering them with abortion.
This is precisely the reasoning used by Robert Lentz, William Hart McNichols, and their protegees, to justify their "icons".
And you dismiss the argument because a few bad eggs use it? That isn't logical thought or reasoning and shows your argument as being weak.

Some of the most evil human beings to live had some really good points about some things, even points that they used to justify their evil. Should we therefore completely dismiss those points altogether or simply recognize the abuse of the points by ill-intentioned men?

You don't just dismiss something because a few bad guys use it. Even heretics like Nestorius and Arius got a lot of points right even if one or two was terribly wrong.
 

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88Devin12 said:
NicholasMyra said:
It also has that "photo snap-shot" effect that pseudo-iconography often does.
What do you mean by this?
I mean that it looks like it caught figures in a moment of time, carrying some sort of nervous motion into the picture.

An icon, by contrast, is meant to re-capitulate the whole of the event or person depicted, not merely a snapshot of a particular second in time.
 

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88Devin12 said:
I don't see how some of you think we should absolutely strictly adhere to iconographic depictions. By this, I mean that people seem to think that new types of icons or events that previously weren't depicted, or elements previously foreign to a a particular icon should be anathema.
On the contrary:






Note the Chinese architecture in the icon of the Martyrs of the Boxer Rebellion and in the life icon of St John of Shanghai and San Francisco. Note also in St John's icon the Capitol building in Washington DC, and a street with cars, representing the Paris street where St John once served a panikhida in memory of an Serbian archhduke who had been assassinated there, an act representative of his foolishness for Christ. The Capitol represents St John's traveling to Washington to petition the American government to allow his flock, stranded on Tubabao in the Philippines after escaping Shanghai in 1949, to emigrate to the US. All are perfectly proper elements in their respective icons.

If this were our attitude, we wouldn't have Rublev's Trinity or many other elements in our iconography. It's a living tradition whose canon is adhered to but can be expanded and evolved and added to.
See above.

The Holy Trinity icon that St Andrei of Radonezh (Andrei Rublyev) painted was based on the already ancient icon composition of the Hospitality of Abraham. St Andrei's icon is a distillation of the theology of the events at the Oak of Mamre. It is as profound an expression of Trinitarian theology as any theological treatise, and it is all there, in a single painted panel.

Who cares if the fetus was t depicted before? Today we have to battle the heretical belief that you aren't a full human person until your birth. Is that not enough to show Christ was a full human person before his birth? We aren't just combating some regulation that is in favor of infanticide, we are combating heresy and blasphemy.
The meaning behind proper icons of the Visitation is the recognition of both St Elizabeth and the unborn Forerunner of the unborn Child of the Virgin as their Lord and their God, something proclaimed, and frequently so, in scripture and in hymnography, the latter which truly expresses the Orthodox consensus patrum.

Moreover, there is only a single historical (12thC) icon of the Annunciation which shoes the unborn Christ, and, even then, the Child is shown over his Mother's body not enclosed in the womb, but in a manner similar to Of the Sign icons, minus the mandorla of Uncreated Light. Again, hymnographers in every Orthodox culture, some of them saints, have consistently omitted any depiction of an unborn Christ.

Attempting to associate this imagery with anti-abortion campaigns has no scriptural or liturgical basis. Icons are not political playthings.

Their FIRST function ever was as a teaching tool.
Not quite. The first icon was the Mandylion (Not Made By Hands), and its purpose was to mediate the miraculous healing of King Abgar. Christ could not travel to Edessa to personally heal the king, so He sent the image of His face imprinted on cloth in His stead. The holiness of an icon is derived from its association with the prototype.This is the first and foremost iconographic principle which not only permits their painting and veneration, but also insists on their veneration. All else flows from this.

This action also proclaims the Incarnation, that fallen matter has been redeemed through Christ's death and resurrection.

We can point to this icon and say that no one can deny the full personhood of a fetus and be free of blasphemy.
No, we cannot. This image, painted by Christine Uveges (who is not even Orthodox) and others like her, was created as a vehicle for the promotion of pro-life causes. This cannot be denied. And, in doing so, this image ceases to be an icon, and becomes a sociopolitical tool, a mascot for the cause.
 

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88Devin12 said:
And you dismiss the argument because a few bad eggs use it? That isn't logical thought or reasoning and shows your argument as being weak.
You may wish to reacquaint yourself with this thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,44810.0/all.html

Some of the most evil human beings to live had some really good points about some things, even points that they used to justify their evil. Should we therefore completely dismiss those points altogether or simply recognize the abuse of the points by ill-intentioned men?
For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? (2 Cor. 6:14)

You don't just dismiss something because a few bad guys use it. Even heretics like Nestorius and Arius got a lot of points right even if one or two was terribly wrong.
While God Himself will ultimately judge their souls, the Church, through her sainted bishops, including St Nicholas of Myra, has decreed that both were heretics deserving of anathema. Good enough for me.
 

88Devin12

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LBK, you don't really offer any real rational arguments here. Instead of trying to base your argument on rejection of these icons based on YOUR expectations of what an icon is, maybe you ought to step back and look at it historically.

Firstly, the story about the image of Christ being sent to King Abgar is indeed as you say, but you are forgetting about the history of this story. The story itself, of the king sending an emissary to Christ dates back to the Fourth Century. However, in all the accounts that record his interaction with Christ, no image is mentioned until the 5th Century when it wasn't a miraculous image but a painting by a court artist. The story that Christ himself made the image didn't come about until about the 7th Century. So there may have been an image, but it probably wasn't made by Christ himself.

Also, then you may point to St Luke (my patron), but again, while a nice tradition that can teach us something, it is somewhat unlikely. He probably could not have painted an image of Mary and Christ when he was a child. This just doesn't add up, especially since he lived pretty far away when Christ was young. Also, the icon(s) that were reported to be this image are all far too recent, and they could be argued to be as copies, but not stylistically since the style we see today really didn't arise until the era between 1100 and 1400.

I also am a bit wrong about the first images being to teach, this became a function of icons, however the first function of Christian iconography was communication and simple depiction of Biblical events. It's a known historical fact that our idea of the "Icon" and its veneration didn't arise until the mid hundreds. The first images weren't venerated as those of today or treated in the same manner, though they are still considered iconography. They form the very basis of what icons have become. Yet to absolutely ignore the facts and refuse to see how much it has changed and evolved over time and insist on static uniformity and absolute legalistic conformity is to completely ignore the real history of it.

And why is the Byzantine style so prominent? The same reasons the liturgy of St John is. Because of the Byzantine synthesis and the power and influence the Greeks had over the whole Eastern Orthodox Church from Chalcedonian Alexandria to Russia. It's a wonderful tradition but it is not the only one and is not the only way.

Also, our iconography has evolved and changed profoundly over the centuries, just like our Liturgy, and to ignore this is to willingly be in ignorance about ones own Church and to do a great disservice to those who paint icons and work within that tradition.

As I told you LBK, the abortion debate is not a political debate, it's theological. You MUST recognize this, because Christ MUST have been a human person from his conception. Therefore it is right and venerable for us to depict Christ, not just as an adult, but as a fetus as well, because he was the incarnate Word of God made flesh.
 

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88Devin12 said:
I also am a bit wrong about the first images being to teach, this became a function of icons, however the first function of Christian iconography was communication and simple depiction of Biblical events.
I see some Protestant theories here.
y
As I told you LBK, the abortion debate is not a political debate, it's theological. You MUST recognize this, because Christ MUST have been a human person from his conception. Therefore it is right and venerable for us to depict Christ, not just as an adult, but as a fetus as well, because he was the incarnate Word of God made flesh.
OK, He must. Does that mean is it necessary to put Him on political banners? Don't think so.
 

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Check this one out, made by an apparently homosexual Catholic priest. I have some liberal views on the issues outside of marriage before God (as in the Church marrying the couple, they can do what they want as long as the Church is not being forced to do it), but using an icon as a poster for supporting marriage, also being it's erotic, is inappropriate and not glorifying God.
 

88Devin12

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Jules_Grant said:


Check this one out, made by an apparently homosexual Catholic priest. I have some liberal views on the issues outside of marriage before God (as in the Church marrying the couple, they can do what they want as long as the Church is not being forced to do it), but using an icon as a poster for supporting marriage, also being it's erotic, is inappropriate and not glorifying God.
This isn't a strange icon, it's schlock...
www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,47878.0.html

This discussion is more about canonical icons that are just a bit strange. Most icons by Mr. Lentz are uncanonical and schlock...

The only one of his schlock icons that I kind of like is his "Christ of Maryknoll". I think we should have a more canonical image painted of Christ in a camp, maybe with gulag prisoners/martyrs under the Soviet Union.
 

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Orthodox11 said:
Alveus Lacuna said:
I was wondering the other day if there is an icon of the Lord with all of the children gathered around Him.  I know it's a familiar Protestant illustration for Sunday Schools and such, but I actually think that sort of icon would be really good for the Orthodox kiddos.


You can buy it here
I'm wondering, doesn't tradition hold that the child in Christ's lap was actually St. Ignatius of Antioch? So shouldn't the child in this icon have a halo around his head?
 

88Devin12

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sheenj said:
Orthodox11 said:
Alveus Lacuna said:
I was wondering the other day if there is an icon of the Lord with all of the children gathered around Him.  I know it's a familiar Protestant illustration for Sunday Schools and such, but I actually think that sort of icon would be really good for the Orthodox kiddos.


You can buy it here
I'm wondering, doesn't tradition hold that the child in Christ's lap was actually St. Ignatius of Antioch? So shouldn't the child in this icon have a halo around his head?
I think that is a later tradition as St Ignatius probably wasn't born until after Christ's resurrection. It's a pious belief and tradition that one can hold to, but I don't think it's by any means official, like the story about St Dismas and Christs family.
 

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88Devin12 said:
This isn't a strange icon, it's schlock...
www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,47878.0.html

This discussion is more about canonical icons that are just a bit strange. Most icons by Mr. Lentz are uncanonical and schlock...

The only one of his schlock icons that I kind of like is his "Christ of Maryknoll". I think we should have a more canonical image painted of Christ in a camp, maybe with gulag prisoners/martyrs under the Soviet Union.
Haha, I just realised. I missed the difference.
 

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88Devin12 said:
LBK, you don't really offer any real rational arguments here. Instead of trying to base your argument on rejection of these icons based on YOUR expectations of what an icon is, maybe you ought to step back and look at it historically.
Demanding rational arguments as the standard for the veracity of Christianity is not how Orthodoxy works.

Firstly, the story about the image of Christ being sent to King Abgar is indeed as you say, but you are forgetting about the history of this story. The story itself, of the king sending an emissary to Christ dates back to the Fourth Century. However, in all the accounts that record his interaction with Christ, no image is mentioned until the 5th Century when it wasn't a miraculous image but a painting by a court artist. The story that Christ himself made the image didn't come about until about the 7th Century. So there may have been an image, but it probably wasn't made by Christ himself.
The Orthodox Church celebrates the miracle of the Mandylion liturgically. If the Church has seen it fit to do so, who am I to argue? The feast day is August 16. Here is the text for Vespers and Matins:

http://www.anastasis.org.uk/16august.htm

It's a known historical fact that our idea of the "Icon" and its veneration didn't arise until the mid hundreds. The first images weren't venerated as those of today or treated in the same manner, though they are still considered iconography.
Evidence, please.

And why is the Byzantine style so prominent? The same reasons the liturgy of St John is. Because of the Byzantine synthesis and the power and influence the Greeks had over the whole Eastern Orthodox Church from Chalcedonian Alexandria to Russia. It's a wonderful tradition but it is not the only one and is not the only way.
This simply refers to artistic style, for want of a better word. The Georgian church is very ancient, and developed its own distinctive "look", independent of Constantinople. But the matter you're disputing has nothing to do with painting styles, but with content.

Also, our iconography has evolved and changed profoundly over the centuries, just like our Liturgy, and to ignore this is to willingly be in ignorance about ones own Church and to do a great disservice to those who paint icons and work within that tradition.
Any evolution in iconography must be in harmony with the liturgical and patristic traditions of the Church. Individual self-expression, or the proclamation of a sociopolitical view has no part in such evolution. If a hymnographer were to pen hymns and prayers reflecting his own views or promoting a "cause", is this acceptable?
As I told you LBK, the abortion debate is not a political debate, it's theological. You MUST recognize this, because Christ MUST have been a human person from his conception. Therefore it is right and venerable for us to depict Christ, not just as an adult, but as a fetus as well, because he was the incarnate Word of God made flesh.
So you presume to know better than the multitudes of iconographers who have faithfully served the Church and proclaimed her teachings through the works of their hands? Are you now proclaiming yourself as a saint and Father?

Your shrill attempts at defending an image, painted by someone who is not Orthodox, and known to have been painted specifically to promote a particular sociopolitical cause, betrays your ignorance of what iconography is and stands for.


 

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LBK, you're displaying something more akin to a zealous, fanatical fundamentalism rather than Orthodoxy, which does usually tend towards a more moderate position.

I am supposing, based on your current method of arguing and your justification, that you may also believe in a literal 7 day creation, that Mary literally lived in the Temple and was taken into the Holy of Holies, and that St George literally fought a dragon.

You should know better than to assume everything said in our hymns is being portrayed as historical reality. It's not.

Same for our iconography, and depictions within it. It seems you want a mindset and mode of existence more akin to the Amish, where we literally never change and only repeat what's been given to us. I'm sorry, but that just isn't the case with the Orthodox Church, we've changed a lot /since the First Century, as has our iconography.

You also seem to assume that the Seventh Century idea of icon veneration had existed since the First Century, which it had not, and this is extremely obvious unless you want to shut yourself off from all reason, intellect and logic.
 

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88Devin12 said:
LBK, you're displaying something more akin to a zealous, fanatical fundamentalism rather than Orthodoxy, which does usually tend towards a more moderate position.
On the contrary. I am simply articulating what the Church teaches and proclaims about iconography. You, in your zeal to defend an image which is not part of Orthodox tradition, and used for sociopolitical ends, who is being fanatical. You have even presumptuously declared "Therefore it is right and venerable for us to depict Christ, not just as an adult, but as a fetus as well". By what authority do you make this claim?

I am supposing, based on your current method of arguing and your justification, that you may also believe in a literal 7 day creation, that Mary literally lived in the Temple and was taken into the Holy of Holies, and that St George literally fought a dragon.
On creation: A literal seven-day creation is not a dogma of the Church. Even early Fathers did not subscribe to it. To God, a thousand years is as a day, and a day is as a thousand years.

On the dwelling of the Mother of God in the Holy of Holies: Do not force me to embarrass you further by showing the great error of your line of thought.
You should know better than to assume everything said in our hymns is being portrayed as historical reality. It's not.
It takes many years to develop any sense of discernment of what is literal and what is not. You're also forgetting that God is quite capable of overturning the laws of nature if He so wishes.

Same for our iconography, and depictions within it. It seems you want a mindset and mode of existence more akin to the Amish, where we literally never change and only repeat what's been given to us. I'm sorry, but that just isn't the case with the Orthodox Church, we've changed a lot /since the First Century, as has our iconography.
You still haven't answered my request for evidence that the earliest icons were not venerated.

You also seem to assume that the Seventh Century idea of icon veneration had existed since the First Century, which it had not, and this is extremely obvious unless you want to shut yourself off from all reason, intellect and logic.
The treatises of St John of Damascus and St Theodore of the Studion, to name but two iconophile saints, repeatedly quote their forebears, including very early Fathers, in terms which expose your assertion as false.

Devin, please don't embarrass yourself further. The image you are defending is not part of Orthodox tradition. Get used to it.
 

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LBK said:
88Devin12 said:
LBK, you're displaying something more akin to a zealous, fanatical fundamentalism rather than Orthodoxy, which does usually tend towards a more moderate position.
On the contrary. I am simply articulating what the Church teaches and proclaims about iconography. You, in your zeal to defend an image which is not part of Orthodox tradition, and used for sociopolitical ends, who is being fanatical. You have even presumptuously declared "Therefore it is right and venerable for us to depict Christ, not just as an adult, but as a fetus as well". By what authority do you make this claim?

I am supposing, based on your current method of arguing and your justification, that you may also believe in a literal 7 day creation, that Mary literally lived in the Temple and was taken into the Holy of Holies, and that St George literally fought a dragon.
On creation: A literal seven-day creation is not a dogma of the Church. Even early Fathers did not subscribe to it. To God, a thousand years is as a day, and a day is as a thousand years.

On the dwelling of the Mother of God in the Holy of Holies: Do not force me to embarrass you further by showing the great error of your line of thought.
You should know better than to assume everything said in our hymns is being portrayed as historical reality. It's not.
It takes many years to develop any sense of discernment of what is literal and what is not. You're also forgetting that God is quite capable of overturning the laws of nature if He so wishes.

Same for our iconography, and depictions within it. It seems you want a mindset and mode of existence more akin to the Amish, where we literally never change and only repeat what's been given to us. I'm sorry, but that just isn't the case with the Orthodox Church, we've changed a lot /since the First Century, as has our iconography.
You still haven't answered my request for evidence that the earliest icons were not venerated.

You also seem to assume that the Seventh Century idea of icon veneration had existed since the First Century, which it had not, and this is extremely obvious unless you want to shut yourself off from all reason, intellect and logic.
The treatises of St John of Damascus and St Theodore of the Studion, to name but two iconophile saints, repeatedly quote their forebears, including very early Fathers, in terms which expose your assertion as false.

Devin, please don't embarrass yourself further. The image you are defending is not part of Orthodox tradition. Get used to it.
Your view is the extreme one, as I've said, your falling closer and close to the Old Believers and Old Calendarists than you are to historical & traditional Orthodoxy.

No, Mary NEVER dwelt in the Holy of Holies, that is a historical fact.

As for Christ depiction as a fetus, a fetus is still a FULL human person and the exact reason that Christ can and should be depicted is because of his incarnation, of him being human.

You are trying to impose an ultra-pious, fanatical ridgidity on the Church that, THANK GOD does not exist except in schismatic groups.
 

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Your view is the extreme one, as I've said, your falling closer and close to the Old Believers and Old Calendarists than you are to historical & traditional Orthodoxy.
And you know this how? Oh, please forgive me. I've only been Orthodox for 50 years. I must defer to your greater discernment.

No, Mary NEVER dwelt in the Holy of Holies, that is a historical fact.
Because Fr Thomas Hopko, Jeannie Constantinou, Dcn Brian Patrick Mitchell, and others influenced by a particular coterie at St Vladimir's say so?

As for Christ depiction as a fetus, a fetus is still a FULL human person and the exact reason that Christ can and should be depicted is because of his incarnation, of him being human.
Yet, for 2000 years, iconographers faithfully serving the Church have consistently done otherwise, while unfailingly and clearly expressing and proclaiming the full humanity of Christ. I'll take the testimony of the works of their hands over your shrill and mistaken insistence any day.
 

88Devin12

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LBK said:
Your view is the extreme one, as I've said, your falling closer and close to the Old Believers and Old Calendarists than you are to historical & traditional Orthodoxy.
And you know this how? Oh, please forgive me. I've only been Orthodox for 50 years. I must defer to your greater discernment.

No, Mary NEVER dwelt in the Holy of Holies, that is a historical fact.
Because Fr Thomas Hopko, Jeannie Constantinou, Dcn Brian Patrick Mitchell, and others influenced by a particular coterie at St Vladimir's say so?

As for Christ depiction as a fetus, a fetus is still a FULL human person and the exact reason that Christ can and should be depicted is because of his incarnation, of him being human.
Yet, for 2000 years, iconographers faithfully serving the Church have consistently done otherwise, clearly expressing and proclaiming the full humanity of Christ. I'll take the testimony of the works of their hands over your shrill and mistaken insistence any day.
It doesn't matter how long you've been Orthodox. Length of time doesn't equal automatic authority.

Or because the tradition of her dwelling in the temple doesn't date to the first few centuries and only appears prominently in hymnography which often is very allegorical?

I'd wager those people you mentioned are far more knowledgable than you on the subject, along with the support of historical evidence.

You argue that they have purposely not shown Christ as a fetus yet that is a fallacious argument, absence doesn't equal denial or rejection. Besides, I doubt any of them had to deal with a nation with majority Christians trying to justify state-sponsered or legalized infanticide.

Like I said before LBK, offer me a rational, logical arguments. If you can't defend your views without falling into logical fallacies, then you're is no argument at all. I don't try to twist reality to fit my view of Christianity or the Church. I don't try to make up excuses why something that didn't happen in fact did.

The earliest icons (keep in mind, iconography doesn't just mean your narrow definition) were symbols like a simple cross, the chi rho, the fish, Jesus as the Good Shepherd/sheep bearer, Jesus as sol invictus. These were images communicating a Christian message that would be Unrecognizable to non-Christians as being Christian.

The other images were done exactly as the Jews were doing at the time, depicting biblical stories, mainly on the walls of the tombs for their dead, and in the cavities themselves.

These images weren't kissed or venerated like those of later times.
 

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Devin, you're sounding just like JamesRottnek in the "Should I destroy this icon?" thread. In your slavish defense of an image of heterodox tradition, you have blinded and deafened yourself to any attempt to show your error.
It doesn't matter how long you've been Orthodox. Length of time doesn't equal automatic authority.
I have resisted posting the following, but you give me no choice.

I have studied iconography for much longer than you've been alive. I have written monographs on iconographic subjects, including several on uncanonical and suspect images, and have held lectures and talks on such matters. I have made these available to some twelve Orthodox priests, of a variety of traditions, a bishop of metropolitan rank, and no fewer than six working iconographers, and urged them to offer correction and advice. None of them have seen it fit to correct anything I have written. My materials have been used by them for teaching and pastoral purposes.

Priests have sought my advice on the provision of icons for their churches. Iconographers have also approached me, and still do, for guidance on unusual commissions they have received.

But, I guess I must defer to you, Devin. Your time in Orthodoxy is obviously vastly superior in knowledge and discernment than these experienced clergymen and iconographers, not to mention saints and Fathers, let alone a mere grumpy old fart like me.  ::)
 

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LBK said:
Devin, you're sounding just like JamesRottnek in the "Should I destroy this icon?" thread. In your slavish defense of an image of heterodox tradition, you have blinded and deafened yourself to any attempt to show your error.
It doesn't matter how long you've been Orthodox. Length of time doesn't equal automatic authority.
I have resisted posting the following, but you give me no choice.

I have studied iconography for much longer than you've been alive. I have written monographs on iconographic subjects, including several on uncanonical and suspect images, and have held lectures and talks on such matters. I have made these available to some twelve Orthodox priests, of a variety of traditions, a bishop of metropolitan rank, and no fewer than six working iconographers, and urged them to offer correction and advice. None of them have seen it fit to correct anything I have written. My materials have been used by them for teaching and pastoral purposes.

Priests have sought my advice on the provision of icons for their churches. Iconographers have also approached me, and still do, for guidance on unusual commissions they have received.

But, I guess I must defer to you, Devin. Your time in Orthodoxy is obviously vastly superior in knowledge and discernment than these experienced clergymen and iconographers, not to mention saints and Fathers, let alone a mere grumpy old fart like me.  ::)
Which jurisdiction are you a part of? And what jurisdiction were those iconographers and priests in?

If you say ROCOR, then there's no way I can take you seriously and I'll probably fall on my butt laughing.
 

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Things sure are getting heated in here. And over an actual theological topic for once!
 

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Asteriktos said:
Things sure are getting heated in here. And over an actual theological topic for once!
I don't feel any heat, except from my cup of tea. Which I'm casually sipping waiting to see if my shot in the dark was on the money.

I'd much rather fall in with the so-called "innovationists" and "intellectuals" of St. Vladimir's Seminary than with ROCOR or ultra-conservative Orthodoxy.

I know at least two of my Priests went to St. Vladimir's. If, like LBK suggests, they and those involved with them or in their tradition are wrong, I don't want to be right.
 

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Between this and the other thread, just in the last hour or so, I can remember people saying words like dumb, idiocy, and "no way I can take you seriously." If that's not heated then slap my butt and call me Susan!  :angel:
 

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Asteriktos said:
Between this and the other thread, just in the last hour or so, I can remember people saying words like dumb, idiocy, and "no way I can take you seriously." If that's not heated then slap my butt and call me Susan!  :angel:
I've tried to avoid using dumb and idiocy, did I use those without thinking? I am quite tired...
 

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88Devin12 said:
LBK said:
Devin, you're sounding just like JamesRottnek in the "Should I destroy this icon?" thread. In your slavish defense of an image of heterodox tradition, you have blinded and deafened yourself to any attempt to show your error.
It doesn't matter how long you've been Orthodox. Length of time doesn't equal automatic authority.
I have resisted posting the following, but you give me no choice.

I have studied iconography for much longer than you've been alive. I have written monographs on iconographic subjects, including several on uncanonical and suspect images, and have held lectures and talks on such matters. I have made these available to some twelve Orthodox priests, of a variety of traditions, a bishop of metropolitan rank, and no fewer than six working iconographers, and urged them to offer correction and advice. None of them have seen it fit to correct anything I have written. My materials have been used by them for teaching and pastoral purposes.

Priests have sought my advice on the provision of icons for their churches. Iconographers have also approached me, and still do, for guidance on unusual commissions they have received.

But, I guess I must defer to you, Devin. Your time in Orthodoxy is obviously vastly superior in knowledge and discernment than these experienced clergymen and iconographers, not to mention saints and Fathers, let alone a mere grumpy old fart like me.  ::)
Which jurisdiction are you a part of? And what jurisdiction were those iconographers and priests in?

If you say ROCOR, then there's no way I can take you seriously and I'll probably fall on my butt laughing.
The clergy and iconographers are of several ethnicities, several canonical jurisdictions, and several countries. Insularity is not a strong point of mine, unlike yourself, my volatile young friend.
 

88Devin12

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LBK said:
88Devin12 said:
LBK said:
Devin, you're sounding just like JamesRottnek in the "Should I destroy this icon?" thread. In your slavish defense of an image of heterodox tradition, you have blinded and deafened yourself to any attempt to show your error.
It doesn't matter how long you've been Orthodox. Length of time doesn't equal automatic authority.
I have resisted posting the following, but you give me no choice.

I have studied iconography for much longer than you've been alive. I have written monographs on iconographic subjects, including several on uncanonical and suspect images, and have held lectures and talks on such matters. I have made these available to some twelve Orthodox priests, of a variety of traditions, a bishop of metropolitan rank, and no fewer than six working iconographers, and urged them to offer correction and advice. None of them have seen it fit to correct anything I have written. My materials have been used by them for teaching and pastoral purposes.

Priests have sought my advice on the provision of icons for their churches. Iconographers have also approached me, and still do, for guidance on unusual commissions they have received.

But, I guess I must defer to you, Devin. Your time in Orthodoxy is obviously vastly superior in knowledge and discernment than these experienced clergymen and iconographers, not to mention saints and Fathers, let alone a mere grumpy old fart like me.  ::)
Which jurisdiction are you a part of? And what jurisdiction were those iconographers and priests in?

If you say ROCOR, then there's no way I can take you seriously and I'll probably fall on my butt laughing.
The clergy and iconographers are of several ethnicities, several canonical jurisdictions, and several countries. Insularity is not a strong point of mine, unlike yourself, my volatile young friend.
I find it odd that you accuse me of this, when just earlier you derided St Vladimirs Seminary and people like Dr Jeanni Constantinou and Fr Thomas Hopko. I've only seen such opinions (of SVS) from ultra-conservatives, primarily from ROCOR.

I simply cannot take ultra-conservative Orthodox seriously anymore.

Like I said, if St Vladimirs Seminary and people like Fr Thomas Hopko, Dr Jeannie Constantinou, Fr Alexander Schmemann, Fr John Meyendorff, Fr. Georges Florovsky, Fr John Romanides, Vladimir Lossky, Metropolitan John Zizioulas, and Metropolitan Kallistos Ware are wrong, then I don't want to be right.
(I'm aware not all are "equal" or say the same things, but I feel all in some ways are scholars and intellectuals)
 

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Not everything these people say or write is wrong, but neither is their every utterance right. Unfortunately, some modern Orthodox writers over-emphasize the "rational arguments" (a stance which explains why you have insisted I provide for my positions), and make claims such as "oh, there's no way the young Virgin could have possibly entered the Holy of Holies, let alone spent any length of time there". I'll not dwell further on that particular topic, as it is not the subject of this thread; suffice to say that this view flies in the face of what the Church teaches, and has taught, for many centuries.



 

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88Devin12, I often argue with LBK, I agree in some cases she has unreal and idealistic views on iconography, however in this case I support her. You can't chose things from the Tradition you like or not, Orthodox faith is not some kind of jigsaw. Either you accept it, or not.

And please, read less books. They do not help learn faith either.
 

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LBK said:
Not everything these people say or write is wrong, but neither is their every utterance right. Unfortunately, some modern Orthodox writers over-emphasize the "rational arguments" (a stance which explains why you have insisted I provide for my positions), and make claims such as "oh, there's no way the young Virgin could have possibly entered the Holy of Holies, let alone spent any length of time there". I'll not dwell further on that particular topic, as it is not the subject of this thread; suffice to say that this view flies in the face of what the Church teaches, and has taught, for many centuries.
That is where you're wrong because it hasn't taught that. That is from hymnography, which is very often allegorical. The Theotokos, during Holy Week, may be portrayed as knowing Christ will raise, but she didn't know this. Hymnography will add many lines of dialogue which never actually occurred, all of this and more is illustrated by an intellectual, rational study of the tradition and hymnology of the Church.

People who don't know better will conflate allegory and poetic language for communicating a literal factual truth.

In fact, many of these things you say the church has taught (like Mary and the Temple) weren't taught until the hymns were written many centuries after the events.

We know the Theotokos served at the Temple, or at least, that's the ancient tradition, but there's absolutely no evidence that she stepped past the court for the women, let alone was carried into the Holy of Holies, which would have been impossible.

Our hymns speak of people recognizing Mary and more especially Christ as the miraculous child, Gods Son. This was not at all the case, everyone assumed Mary was a normal girl and that Christ was a normal child who was the biological son of Joseph.

Again, it's like people who take the conflicting accounts in the Gospels and try to jump through hoops trying to justify that because they differ on what really is the same event, that there must have been two different but similar events. Then they assume the Church teaches this sort of flawed method of interpretation.

Iconography is no different, you're taking a post 5th/6th Century perspective on "icons" and projecting it all the way back to Christ which is wrong. It is true that we've always had iconography (not in the narrow sense many think of it today) and its been venerated (rather, respected), but it isn't the case that the correct, but more pronounced veneration after the 7th Council existed for the several centuries prior. In reality, what had existed before became magnified after iconoclasm and you began to have individual icons become much more popular, as well as bowing to them and kissing them.

Like I've said already before LBK, I'm going to listen to these Orthodox "intellectuals" before I'll listen to ultra-conservatives, no matter their jurisdiction.
 

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Michał Kalina said:
88Devin12, I often argue with LBK, I agree in some cases she has unreal and idealistic views on iconography, however in this case I support her. You can't chose things from the Tradition you like or not, Orthodox faith is not some kind of jigsaw. Either you accept it, or not.

And please, read less books. They do not help learn faith either.
You confuse tradition with Tradition, things like Mary being carried into the Holy of Holies isn't Tradition, and I CAN choose to reject it as literal history. I accept its allegorical meaning and theological truth, but certainly not the false idea that its historical fact.

Like St George and the Dragon, which isn't historical fact either and isn't Tradition.

You REALLY don't like books do you Michal? Every post you reply to me somehow includes some denunciation of books or reading them.

Like I said, if SVS and the Orthodox intellectuals mentioned above are wrong, I don't want to be right, period. If it came to a choice between a ultra-conservative, ROCOR-esque faith and intellectual, rational, scholarly Orthodoxy, I'll choose the latter.
 

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88Devin12 said:
Michał Kalina said:
88Devin12, I often argue with LBK, I agree in some cases she has unreal and idealistic views on iconography, however in this case I support her. You can't chose things from the Tradition you like or not, Orthodox faith is not some kind of jigsaw. Either you accept it, or not.

And please, read less books. They do not help learn faith either.
You confuse tradition with Tradition, things like Mary being carried into the Holy of Holies isn't Tradition, and I CAN choose to reject it as literal history.
12 mayor feasts are not big-T. So what is left, then?

You REALLY don't like books do you Michal? Every post you reply to me somehow includes some denunciation of books or reading them.
I like books. However I do not believe I can read a few of them and claim I know everything. There is a world outside books, authors can be biased, they can err to, everything should be taken with a grain of salt.
 
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