Strange icons

Sampson

Jr. Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2018
Messages
42
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Jackson02 said:
This seems like one of the cases where we don't need another variant of icons for the Theotokos, but I guess it's not totally unusual to portray her as an abbess.
 

Jackson02

OC.Net Guru
Joined
May 5, 2017
Messages
1,014
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
United States
Sampson said:
Jackson02 said:
This seems like one of the cases where we don't need another variant of icons for the Theotokos, but I guess it's not totally unusual to portray her as an abbess.
I thought she was being portrayed as some kind of female Patriarch of Constantinople.
 

Justin Kolodziej

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Oct 4, 2012
Messages
1,552
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Age
41
The True Vine icons are odd to me. I mean I get what they're saying, but still:



I ran across one example in the thesis about the changes in Eastern Catholic parishes after the Union of Brest, but these are Romanian according to the source?
 

LBK

Toumarches
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
13,642
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Jackson02 said:
Sampson said:
Jackson02 said:
This seems like one of the cases where we don't need another variant of icons for the Theotokos, but I guess it's not totally unusual to portray her as an abbess.
I thought she was being portrayed as some kind of female Patriarch of Constantinople.
You're not far wrong. There is a tradition of calling the Mother of God the Abbess of Athos, as she is the patron of the Holy Mountain. Athos is also known as Panaghia's Garden.

But the mantle of an abbess is plain black. The Mother of God is shown wearing a bishop's mantle. I'm sure it was painted with the best of intentions, but it gives her a status she simply does not have.
 

Sampson

Jr. Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2018
Messages
42
Reaction score
0
Points
0
LBK said:
Jackson02 said:
Sampson said:
Jackson02 said:
This seems like one of the cases where we don't need another variant of icons for the Theotokos, but I guess it's not totally unusual to portray her as an abbess.
I thought she was being portrayed as some kind of female Patriarch of Constantinople.
You're not far wrong. There is a tradition of calling the Mother of God the Abbess of Athos, as she is the patron of the Holy Mountain. Athos is also known as Panaghia's Garden.

But the mantle of an abbess is plain black. The Mother of God is shown wearing a bishop's mantle. I'm sure it was painted with the best of intentions, but it gives her a status she simply does not have.
Monastics do sometimes wear more ornate or at least non-black mantiyas though.



 

hecma925

Stratopedarches
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
19,735
Reaction score
131
Points
63
Age
159
Location
The South
In the first picture (the icon), the saint is just wearing a monastic mantle, which is brown (unlike black in modern days), not an abbot's or bishop's mantiya.  Although an abbot's mantiya is typically black, there seems to be some leeway with color for abbesses.

Here is the abbess of a Georgian monastery:



Her mantiya is purple. Just note, there are no stripes as there would be for a bishop as in the icon of the Theotokos that Jackson02 posted.
 

brlon

Jr. Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2015
Messages
74
Reaction score
6
Points
8
Location
UK
Sampson said:
Monastics do sometimes wear more ornate or at least non-black mantiyas though.

I think in this case Metropolitan Amphilochios may have simply lent his own mantiya for the photograph.
 

Sampson

Jr. Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2018
Messages
42
Reaction score
0
Points
0
hecma925 said:
In the first picture (the icon), the saint is just wearing a monastic mantle, which is brown (unlike black in modern days), not an abbot's or bishop's mantiya.  Although an abbot's mantiya is typically black, there seems to be some leeway with color for abbesses.

Here is the abbess of a Georgian monastery:

Her mantiya is purple. Just note, there are no stripes as there would be for a bishop as in the icon of the Theotokos that Jackson02 posted.
Oh it's definitely just brown. Maybe reddish brown, but I just wanted to find an icon of a monastic to illustrate that their mantles don't see to  portrayed as black like LBK said.
brlon said:
Sampson said:
Monastics do sometimes wear more ornate or at least non-black mantiyas though.

I think in this case Metropolitan Amphilochios may have simply lent his own mantiya for the photograph.
That seems to happen at enthronements, since I found another picture just like it.

I have no idea what "proper" procedure is at the enthronement of an abbess, but maybe they are traditionally given the bishop's mantiya to wear during the service as respect?

Whatever the case, it seems like that's what the icon might have been trying to capture. And like I said, it doesn't strike me as outrageously wrong just...unnecessary. But definitely visually strange as the thread title implies!
 

hecma925

Stratopedarches
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
19,735
Reaction score
131
Points
63
Age
159
Location
The South
There are a lot of monastic saints that were simple monks and they are depicted with a brown monastic mantle...nothing denoting any authority, just clothes.
 

LBK

Toumarches
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
13,642
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Sampson said:
Oh it's definitely just brown. Maybe reddish brown, but I just wanted to find an icon of a monastic to illustrate that their mantles don't see to  portrayed as black like LBK said.
Black is usually associated with evil or spiritual darkness in iconography, so monastic dress, including monastic mantles, is rarely painted in black. Browns, muted greens, dark blue, and other somber colors are the norm.
 

Dominika

Taxiarches
Staff member
Global Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Dec 23, 2011
Messages
7,463
Reaction score
52
Points
48
Age
28
Location
Poland
Website
www.youtube.com
Today, being at the Liturgy, I thought that the Most Holy Theotokos is not only igumenia of the Mount Athos, but we refer to Her as "Władyczyca" (Vladichitsa) in Church Slavonic, Despeina in Greek. So it's like addresing to bishop (Władyka, Despota) - Master.
 

LBK

Toumarches
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
13,642
Reaction score
0
Points
36
Dominika said:
Today, being at the Liturgy, I thought that the Most Holy Theotokos is not only igumenia of the Mount Athos, but we refer to Her as "Władyczyca" (Vladichitsa) in Church Slavonic, Despeina in Greek. So it's like addresing to bishop (Władyka, Despota) - Master.
Despoina is a title of honor, equivalent to the English Mistress (the uncorrupted meaning). Despoina finds its way into even modern Greek, and is a title given to lay women, as Mistress is. For instance, oikodespoina = lady/mistress of the house. The male equivalent is oikodespotis.

To suggest that this title of the Mother of God gives her a kind of episcopal authority is something of a stretch.
 

Dominika

Taxiarches
Staff member
Global Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Dec 23, 2011
Messages
7,463
Reaction score
52
Points
48
Age
28
Location
Poland
Website
www.youtube.com
LBK said:
Dominika said:
Today, being at the Liturgy, I thought that the Most Holy Theotokos is not only igumenia of the Mount Athos, but we refer to Her as "Władyczyca" (Vladichitsa) in Church Slavonic, Despeina in Greek. So it's like addresing to bishop (Władyka, Despota) - Master.
Despoina is a title of honor, equivalent to the English Mistress (the uncorrupted meaning). Despoina finds its way into even modern Greek, and is a title given to lay women, as Mistress is. For instance, oikodespoina = lady/mistress of the house. The male equivalent is oikodespotis.

To suggest that this title of the Mother of God gives her a kind of episcopal authority is something of a stretch.
No, no episcopal authority. But a kind of authority. And reverence that in words is similar to the bishop's one, but, actually, higher. Maybe I haven't put it clerarly.
 

Dominika

Taxiarches
Staff member
Global Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Dec 23, 2011
Messages
7,463
Reaction score
52
Points
48
Age
28
Location
Poland
Website
www.youtube.com
Orthodox_Slav said:
Dominika said:
^^ it's not strange
But the inscription is in Lithuanian and not slavonic!!
There are icon inscriptions in Greek, Arabic, Korean, French, English, Coptic, Serbian, Polish etc. not only in Church Slavonic.
 

Jackson02

OC.Net Guru
Joined
May 5, 2017
Messages
1,014
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
United States
Orthodox_Slav said:
Dominika said:
^^ it's not strange
But the inscription is in Lithuanian and not slavonic!!
Orthodoxy isn't like Roman Catholicism where everything is in latin. In Orthodoxy, the icon is usually in the people's language. If you go to Google Images you can find icons in various languages.
 

RaphaCam

Patriarch of Trashposting
Joined
Oct 22, 2015
Messages
8,585
Reaction score
41
Points
48
Age
23
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Website
em-espirito-e-em-verdade.blogspot.com
Dominika said:
Orthodox_Slav said:
Dominika said:
^^ it's not strange
But the inscription is in Lithuanian and not slavonic!!
There are icon inscriptions in Greek, Arabic, Korean, French, English, Coptic, Serbian, Polish etc. not only in Church Slavonic.
Sindarin! (but this one is rather strange)

 

LivenotoneviL

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Sep 29, 2016
Messages
1,607
Reaction score
2
Points
0
Age
23
Location
United States
Orthodox_Slav said:
Dominika said:
^^ it's not strange
But the inscription is in Lithuanian and not slavonic!!
Orthodox Slav, I love your posts, and agree with a good portion of them, but I'm gonna be dead serious with you.

I think you have a very serious problem with how you perceive ethnicity in the Church.

Although for me undoubtedly my favorite liturgical tradition is Russian Orthodoxy (I'm a Slavophile, sorry) - for me, subjectively, it's just the prettiest and how I connect spiritually - in fact, I felt like the Theotokos was personally watching me when I visited the closest ROCOR Church one time - not every Orthodox Slavic person is Russian Orthodox, and each have their own liturgical traditions that are unique to their culture. When you have this attitude of forcing legitimate Orthodox traditions to disappear in the name of supporting your own, you create schism. Here in America, we have a Carpatho-Russian (a subgroup of Ukrainians) diocese that was under the Russian Orthodox Church, but they actually broke away and joined the Ecumenical Patriarch because of this attitude which you have showcased, as they felt like their own cultural heritage was under attack.

The sanctity of the Russian tradition is not being threatened right now, and by no means should you be forcing it on people who are minding their own business. In the Church, there is no Jew or Greek, but we are one in Christ.
 

Dominika

Taxiarches
Staff member
Global Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Dec 23, 2011
Messages
7,463
Reaction score
52
Points
48
Age
28
Location
Poland
Website
www.youtube.com
LivenotoneviL said:
Here in America, we have a Carpatho-Russian (a subgroup of Ukrainians) diocese
I suppose some of its believers (and I mean cradles) would be offended by calling them "a subgroup of Ukrainians". Try to say something like that to Polish Lemkos, and just wait one second for the reaction.


Edit: Sindarin looks amazing!  ;D
 

LivenotoneviL

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Sep 29, 2016
Messages
1,607
Reaction score
2
Points
0
Age
23
Location
United States
Dominika said:
LivenotoneviL said:
Here in America, we have a Carpatho-Russian (a subgroup of Ukrainians) diocese
I suppose some of its believers (and I mean cradles) would be offended by calling them "a subgroup of Ukrainians". Try to say something like that to Polish Lemkos, and just wait one second for the reaction.


Edit: Sindarin looks amazing!  ;D
I'm sure of it - I was thinking of the quickest way to get my point across at the cost of respect, and I should've been less ignorant.
 

Deacon Lance

Protokentarchos
Joined
Oct 26, 2002
Messages
4,181
Reaction score
4
Points
38
Age
48
Location
Washington, PA
LivenotoneviL said:
Orthodox_Slav said:
Dominika said:
^^ it's not strange
But the inscription is in Lithuanian and not slavonic!!
Orthodox Slav, I love your posts, and agree with a good portion of them, but I'm gonna be dead serious with you.

I think you have a very serious problem with how you perceive ethnicity in the Church.

Although for me undoubtedly my favorite liturgical tradition is Russian Orthodoxy (I'm a Slavophile, sorry) - for me, subjectively, it's just the prettiest and how I connect spiritually - in fact, I felt like the Theotokos was personally watching me when I visited the closest ROCOR Church one time - not every Orthodox Slavic person is Russian Orthodox, and each have their own liturgical traditions that are unique to their culture. When you have this attitude of forcing legitimate Orthodox traditions to disappear in the name of supporting your own, you create schism. Here in America, we have a Carpatho-Russian (a subgroup of Ukrainians) diocese that was under the Russian Orthodox Church, but they actually broke away and joined the Ecumenical Patriarch because of this attitude which you have showcased, as they felt like their own cultural heritage was under attack.

The sanctity of the Russian tradition is not being threatened right now, and by no means should you be forcing it on people who are minding their own business. In the Church, there is no Jew or Greek, but we are one in Christ.
The American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese was never under the Russian Orthodox Church.  The first wave of Carpartho-Russian Greek Catholic converts to Orthodoxy under St Alexis Toth went under the Russian Orthodox Church where they had an exarchate and Bishop for a short time.  The Bishop returned to the Greek Catholic Church and the Carpatho-Russian parishes were Russified.  Today they exist in the OCA, ROCOR, and the Patriarchal parishes but have retained little Carpatho-Russian identity.  The second wave of converts came later under Metropolitan Orestes Chornock, not wanting to be Russified, they were accepted as a diocese under the Ecumenical Patriarch.
 

RaphaCam

Patriarch of Trashposting
Joined
Oct 22, 2015
Messages
8,585
Reaction score
41
Points
48
Age
23
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Website
em-espirito-e-em-verdade.blogspot.com
Dominika said:
LivenotoneviL said:
Here in America, we have a Carpatho-Russian (a subgroup of Ukrainians) diocese
I suppose some of its believers (and I mean cradles) would be offended by calling them "a subgroup of Ukrainians". Try to say something like that to Polish Lemkos, and just wait one second for the reaction.
Mental note: don't mess with Lemkos.

Edit: Sindarin looks amazing!  ;D
It does! Tengwar (the LOTR's alphabet) is a true work of art.
 

Mor Ephrem

Hypatos
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Oct 3, 2002
Messages
36,163
Reaction score
35
Points
48
Age
39
Location
New York!
Website
www.orthodoxchristianity.net
hecma925 said:
Dominika said:
Saint Elias. Well, more of his icons are unusual.

He kept his cloak.
In an alternate ending, Elisha does NOT get to curse local children in God’s name for ridiculing his baldness so that God sends bears to maul the kids.  He just has to deal with insecurity and generalized anxiety.
 

hecma925

Stratopedarches
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
19,735
Reaction score
131
Points
63
Age
159
Location
The South
Mor Ephrem said:
hecma925 said:
Dominika said:
Saint Elias. Well, more of his icons are unusual.

He kept his cloak.
In an alternate ending, Elisha does NOT get to curse local children in God’s name for ridiculing his baldness so that God sends bears to maul the kids.  He just has to deal with insecurity and generalized anxiety.
Wow, what translation is this?
 

Dominika

Taxiarches
Staff member
Global Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Dec 23, 2011
Messages
7,463
Reaction score
52
Points
48
Age
28
Location
Poland
Website
www.youtube.com
Has anyone seen something like that? The text (not visible there) was from Ezekiel 37, 5

 

HaydenTE

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Aug 13, 2015
Messages
1,431
Reaction score
2
Points
38
Age
19

Can you guess what’s strange about this one?
Answer: I painted it!
 

HaydenTE

OC.Net Guru
Joined
Aug 13, 2015
Messages
1,431
Reaction score
2
Points
38
Age
19
Thank you! I took a class with Erin Kimmett through the Antiochian Village in Bolivar, PA.
 
Top