Summing up

Deacon Lance

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Sharbel said:
The young fogey said:
I tried Orthodoxy. I still use much of it, from prayers at home to church (Byzantine Catholic) at least once a month...
You call this trying Orthodoxy?  No, you most definitely did not try Orthodoxy.
He was chrismated Orthodox, belonged to a parish for many years, and was ordained a reader.  He tried it.
 

Deacon Lance

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thenerdpaul said:
Deacon Lance said:
thenerdpaul said:
After they were mistreated by the Latin bishops here, not before.  During the Communist era thousands were martyred rather than join the Orthodox Church.
Hmm. I did some quick searching and most of the stuff online I found were about some people who had been either heavily Latinized or were clergy. However, I did find a book that might be on this from a Ukrainian studies group that seems to be on this. Do you know of any online citations you can provide?
Google St Alexis Toth and Archbishop Ireland there is plenty. 
 

Deacon Lance

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Volnutt said:
The young fogey said:
thenerdpaul said:
After they were mistreated by the Latin bishops here, not before.
Fogey's position would seem to imply that the Latin bishops were doing the right thing. According to him, it would be allowing the Byzcaths to idolize their own culture.
No he recognizes the Latin bishops treated us like garbage.
 

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Deacon Lance said:
thenerdpaul said:
Deacon Lance said:
thenerdpaul said:
After they were mistreated by the Latin bishops here, not before.  During the Communist era thousands were martyred rather than join the Orthodox Church.
Hmm. I did some quick searching and most of the stuff online I found were about some people who had been either heavily Latinized or were clergy. However, I did find a book that might be on this from a Ukrainian studies group that seems to be on this. Do you know of any online citations you can provide?
Google St Alexis Toth and Archbishop Ireland there is plenty.
Uh, no. That would be the opposite of what I was looking for. You said thousands of Eastern Rite Catholics were martyred rather than join Orthodoxy, and I asked for an online citation. Saint Alexis Toth and his ministry would not be that.
 

rakovsky

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Deacon Lance said:
rakovsky said:
Isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy more of a "living thing" than Eastern Catholicism was in the 16th century, since the W.R.Orthodox choose to be Orthodox voluntarily. If someone is forced into a religion, is that a real, "living" faith?
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?
You will have to prove that a majority of Byzantine Catholics were "fierce" in their loyalty to the Pope of Rome against their Ukrainian Orthodox brothers living among them in a short time of 100 years already in the 17th century.

At most I think you can show that 17th century Byzantine Catholics accepted the rule of Catholic Poland over them and the Pope's authority. But that doesn't mean that their acceptance of the Pope was "fierce" against Orthodoxy any more than the Byzantines "fiercely" accepted Ottoman rule or the Russians "fiercely" accepted the Mongol Yoke or many medieval Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam.
 

Deacon Lance

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thenerdpaul said:
Deacon Lance said:
thenerdpaul said:
Deacon Lance said:
thenerdpaul said:
After they were mistreated by the Latin bishops here, not before.  During the Communist era thousands were martyred rather than join the Orthodox Church.
Hmm. I did some quick searching and most of the stuff online I found were about some people who had been either heavily Latinized or were clergy. However, I did find a book that might be on this from a Ukrainian studies group that seems to be on this. Do you know of any online citations you can provide?
Google St Alexis Toth and Archbishop Ireland there is plenty.
Uh, no. That would be the opposite of what I was looking for. You said thousands of Eastern Rite Catholics were martyred rather than join Orthodoxy, and I asked for an online citation. Saint Alexis Toth and his ministry would not be that.
Sorry, I thought you questioning when and how Greek Catholics converted in America.  Here you go:
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/the-ussrs-catholic-martyrs-suffered-but-they-suffered-for-god-21120

I would also think the resurgence of the Greek Catholic Churches in Ukraine and Slovakia after Communism fell should serve as proof.
 

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thenerdpaul said:
You said thousands of Eastern Rite Catholics were martyred rather than join Orthodoxy, and I asked for an online citation. Saint Alexis Toth and his ministry would not be that.
The NerdPaul,

My understanding is that under Joseph Stalin's rule, there was a general suppression of religion, and Stalin killed or imprisoned numerous Eastern Orthodox and Catholic priests. IIRC, Eastern Catholicism was banned, and so the Eastern Catholics and their churches de facto had to either join the Roman Catholics or the Eastern Orthodox, which were still officially recognized by the government.

This occurred already about four centuries after the Poles forced the Orthodox to become Eastern Catholic, so I don't think it's proof that the Eastern Catholics "developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time". Many North African Muslims could be very loyal to Islam during the Crusades, but I doubt they were as loyal 100 years after the Arab Conquest. Besides, since there were millions of ECs before WWII, then even if there were thousands of martyrs as Deacon Lance wrote, isn't it doubtful statistically that most Eastern Catholics refused to join the RC and EO churches and were martyred?
 

Deacon Lance

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rakovsky said:
Deacon Lance said:
rakovsky said:
Isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy more of a "living thing" than Eastern Catholicism was in the 16th century, since the W.R.Orthodox choose to be Orthodox voluntarily. If someone is forced into a religion, is that a real, "living" faith?
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?
You will have to prove that a majority of Byzantine Catholics were "fierce" in their loyalty to the Pope of Rome against their Ukrainian Orthodox brothers living among them in a short time of 100 years already in the 17th century.

At most I think you can show that 17th century Byzantine Catholics accepted the rule of Catholic Poland over them and the Pope's authority. But that doesn't mean that their acceptance of the Pope was "fierce" against Orthodoxy any more than the Byzantines "fiercely" accepted Ottoman rule or the Russians "fiercely" accepted the Mongol Yoke or many medieval Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam.
The Martyrs of Prautlin prove otherwise.
 

thenerdpaul

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rakovsky said:
thenerdpaul said:
You said thousands of Eastern Rite Catholics were martyred rather than join Orthodoxy, and I asked for an online citation. Saint Alexis Toth and his ministry would not be that.
The NerdPaul,

My understanding is that under Joseph Stalin's rule, there was a general suppression of religion, and Stalin killed or imprisoned numerous Eastern Orthodox and Catholic priests. IIRC, Eastern Catholicism was banned, and so the Eastern Catholics and their churches de facto had to either join the Roman Catholics or the Eastern Orthodox, which were still officially recognized by the government.

This occurred already about four centuries after the Poles forced the Orthodox to become Eastern Catholic, so I don't think it's proof that the Eastern Catholics "developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time". Many North African Muslims could be very loyal to Islam during the Crusades, but I doubt they were as loyal 100 years after the Arab Conquest. Besides, since there were millions of ECs before WWII, then even if there were thousands of martyrs as Deacon Lance wrote, isn't it doubtful statistically that most Eastern Catholics refused to join the RC and EO churches and were martyred?
No, it's not doubtful at all, in fact it is rather believable that this would happen under Stalin's regime. But I wasn't able to find a source online, hence the reason I asked for it. And it has since been provided.
 

Dominika

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Deacon Lance said:
rakovsky said:
Deacon Lance said:
rakovsky said:
Isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy more of a "living thing" than Eastern Catholicism was in the 16th century, since the W.R.Orthodox choose to be Orthodox voluntarily. If someone is forced into a religion, is that a real, "living" faith?
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?
You will have to prove that a majority of Byzantine Catholics were "fierce" in their loyalty to the Pope of Rome against their Ukrainian Orthodox brothers living among them in a short time of 100 years already in the 17th century.

At most I think you can show that 17th century Byzantine Catholics accepted the rule of Catholic Poland over them and the Pope's authority. But that doesn't mean that their acceptance of the Pope was "fierce" against Orthodoxy any more than the Byzantines "fiercely" accepted Ottoman rule or the Russians "fiercely" accepted the Mongol Yoke or many medieval Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam.
The Martyrs of Prautlin prove otherwise.
But eventually except one parish, all Byzantine Catholics in Podlasie came back to Orthodoxy. It happened, some time earlier, to lots of Lemkos in Poland. Why? Becaue most of them, for a vast majority of time, weren't aware of the fact that they're not Orthodox anymore! But they started to realising what's going on, when more and more latinisations were being introduced.

As for the martyrs of Pratulin, there was also important anti-Russian factor. Maybe even more important than anti-Orthodox?...
 

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Deacon Lance said:
Volnutt said:
The young fogey said:
thenerdpaul said:
After they were mistreated by the Latin bishops here, not before.
Fogey's position would seem to imply that the Latin bishops were doing the right thing. According to him, it would be allowing the Byzcaths to idolize their own culture.
No he recognizes the Latin bishops treated us like garbage.
In order to force you to give up your cultural idolatry. Call it tough love.


Again, this is not my opinion, just what I think fogey's position reduces down to. If the Orthodox are byz-olaters, then Bishop Ireland should be his hero.
 

rakovsky

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Deacon Lance said:
rakovsky said:
Deacon Lance said:
rakovsky said:
Isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy more of a "living thing" than Eastern Catholicism was in the 16th century, since the W.R.Orthodox choose to be Orthodox voluntarily. If someone is forced into a religion, is that a real, "living" faith?
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?
You will have to prove that a majority of Byzantine Catholics were "fierce" in their loyalty to the Pope of Rome against their Ukrainian Orthodox brothers living among them in a short time of 100 years already in the 17th century.

At most I think you can show that 17th century Byzantine Catholics accepted the rule of Catholic Poland over them and the Pope's authority. But that doesn't mean that their acceptance of the Pope was "fierce" against Orthodoxy any more than the Byzantines "fiercely" accepted Ottoman rule or the Russians "fiercely" accepted the Mongol Yoke or many medieval Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam.
The Martyrs of Prautlin prove otherwise.
How does the martyrdom of 13 Greek Catholics about three centuries after the forced conversion prove that most Greek Catholics fiercely accepted Papal rule soon after the conversion?

It doesn't, Deacon Lance, anymore than Jihad in North Africa under the Crusades could prove that Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam soon after their own forced conversion.
 

rakovsky

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thenerdpaul said:
No, it's not doubtful at all, in fact it is rather believable that this would happen under Stalin's regime. But I wasn't able to find a source online, hence the reason I asked for it. And it has since been provided.
I know what you mean, and the source shows that there was persecution, which is very wrong. But in order to show that they were fiercely loyal to Eastern Catholicism over Roman Catholicism or Orthodoxy, statistics would be helpful, like how many of all Greek Catholics were persecuted, was there another factor than religion for the persecution, like cooperation with the Nazis, etc.

To give an example, in the Jewish and Armenian Holocausts, the Jews and Armenians killed number in the millions, a big majority of their population in the countries affected. Or to give another example, after living under Muslim rule for 1200 years, we can say that the 5-10% of Christians living in Arab countries have to be fiercely loyal to hang on to their faith. But in the case of Ukraine today, IIRC about 1/4-1/3 of Ukrainians are Eastern Catholic, which is somewhere around what it was before WWII. I'm not saying there was minimal persecution, I just think statistics would be helpful.
 

Deacon Lance

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Dominika said:
Deacon Lance said:
rakovsky said:
Deacon Lance said:
rakovsky said:
Isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy more of a "living thing" than Eastern Catholicism was in the 16th century, since the W.R.Orthodox choose to be Orthodox voluntarily. If someone is forced into a religion, is that a real, "living" faith?
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?
You will have to prove that a majority of Byzantine Catholics were "fierce" in their loyalty to the Pope of Rome against their Ukrainian Orthodox brothers living among them in a short time of 100 years already in the 17th century.

At most I think you can show that 17th century Byzantine Catholics accepted the rule of Catholic Poland over them and the Pope's authority. But that doesn't mean that their acceptance of the Pope was "fierce" against Orthodoxy any more than the Byzantines "fiercely" accepted Ottoman rule or the Russians "fiercely" accepted the Mongol Yoke or many medieval Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam.
The Martyrs of Prautlin prove otherwise.
But eventually except one parish, all Byzantine Catholics in Podlasie came back to Orthodoxy. It happened, some time earlier, to lots of Lemkos in Poland. Why? Becaue most of them, for a vast majority of time, weren't aware of the fact that they're not Orthodox anymore! But they started to realising what's going on, when more and more latinisations were being introduced.

As for the martyrs of Pratulin, there was also important anti-Russian factor. Maybe even more important than anti-Orthodox?...
Came back?  The Eparchy of Chelms was liquidated by the Tsar.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_Chełm_Eparchy
 

Deacon Lance

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rakovsky said:
Deacon Lance said:
rakovsky said:
Deacon Lance said:
rakovsky said:
Isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy more of a "living thing" than Eastern Catholicism was in the 16th century, since the W.R.Orthodox choose to be Orthodox voluntarily. If someone is forced into a religion, is that a real, "living" faith?
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?
You will have to prove that a majority of Byzantine Catholics were "fierce" in their loyalty to the Pope of Rome against their Ukrainian Orthodox brothers living among them in a short time of 100 years already in the 17th century.

At most I think you can show that 17th century Byzantine Catholics accepted the rule of Catholic Poland over them and the Pope's authority. But that doesn't mean that their acceptance of the Pope was "fierce" against Orthodoxy any more than the Byzantines "fiercely" accepted Ottoman rule or the Russians "fiercely" accepted the Mongol Yoke or many medieval Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam.
The Martyrs of Prautlin prove otherwise.
How does the martyrdom of 13 Greek Catholics about three centuries after the forced conversion prove that most Greek Catholics fiercely accepted Papal rule soon after the conversion?

It doesn't, Deacon Lance, anymore than Jihad in North Africa under the Crusades could prove that Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam soon after their own forced conversion.
It is but one example that disproves the ongoing Moscow propaganda.  The  fact that the Greek Catholic Eparchies of Lviv, Przemysl, Ivano-Frankivsk, Mukachevo, and Presov survived what they did and emerged stronger is another.
 

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Anyway, if I may, I would like to return this thread somewhat to the original topic.

At the end of the day, OP, you did join Orthodoxy for a time and participated in it at a substantive level. I disagree with you, but I'd be interested in hearing what caused to to have these opinions. Your "Rome or the abyss" line got me thinking: are you implying that Orthodoxy is a sort of Protestantism? If so, why do our various schisms and camps bother you more than Rome's? Or is my assessment of what you said incorrect?
 

Dominika

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Deacon Lance said:
Dominika said:
Deacon Lance said:
rakovsky said:
Deacon Lance said:
rakovsky said:
Isn't Western Rite Orthodoxy more of a "living thing" than Eastern Catholicism was in the 16th century, since the W.R.Orthodox choose to be Orthodox voluntarily. If someone is forced into a religion, is that a real, "living" faith?
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?
You will have to prove that a majority of Byzantine Catholics were "fierce" in their loyalty to the Pope of Rome against their Ukrainian Orthodox brothers living among them in a short time of 100 years already in the 17th century.

At most I think you can show that 17th century Byzantine Catholics accepted the rule of Catholic Poland over them and the Pope's authority. But that doesn't mean that their acceptance of the Pope was "fierce" against Orthodoxy any more than the Byzantines "fiercely" accepted Ottoman rule or the Russians "fiercely" accepted the Mongol Yoke or many medieval Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam.
The Martyrs of Prautlin prove otherwise.
But eventually except one parish, all Byzantine Catholics in Podlasie came back to Orthodoxy. It happened, some time earlier, to lots of Lemkos in Poland. Why? Becaue most of them, for a vast majority of time, weren't aware of the fact that they're not Orthodox anymore! But they started to realising what's going on, when more and more latinisations were being introduced.

As for the martyrs of Pratulin, there was also important anti-Russian factor. Maybe even more important than anti-Orthodox?...
Came back?  The Eparchy of Chelms was liquidated by the Tsar.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_Chełm_Eparchy
What we call now eparchy of Lublin and Chełm (of the Polish Orthodox Church) is sometimes called the old capital of the Polish Orthodoxy. And this eparchy, together with Podlasie region, gave to the Church the new martyrs (Męczennicy Chełmscy i Podlascy). The only unfortunate fact that it came back to Orthodoxy because of Russians (and many were, I'm repeating, not against Orthodoxy, but against Russians). But for decades they don't have any influence on the eparchy and, very slowly, it's becoming more vivid.
 

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Deacon Lance said:
rakovsky said:
How does the martyrdom of 13 Greek Catholics about three centuries after the forced conversion prove that most Greek Catholics fiercely accepted Papal rule soon after the conversion?

It doesn't, Deacon Lance, anymore than Jihad in North Africa under the Crusades could prove that Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam soon after their own forced conversion.
It is but one example that disproves the ongoing Moscow propaganda.  The  fact that the Greek Catholic Eparchies of Lviv, Przemysl, Ivano-Frankivsk, Mukachevo, and Presov survived what they did and emerged stronger is another.
Your claim was:
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?
You haven't proven that way back in the 16th-17th centuries the general Byzantine Catholic population developed "fierce loyalty" to Rome "soon after" Poland forced them to convert from Orthodoxy.

The 13 Prautlin martyrs in the 19th century doesn't count.
The fact that Western Ukraine stayed Catholic for about four centuries of Catholic rule up to the mid-20th century when Stalin got it doesn't count either.

North Africa developed fierce loyalty to Islam several centuries after the Arab conquest. But that's not good evidence that the Copts' Islamicization was voluntary.
 

Deacon Lance

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rakovsky said:
Deacon Lance said:
rakovsky said:
How does the martyrdom of 13 Greek Catholics about three centuries after the forced conversion prove that most Greek Catholics fiercely accepted Papal rule soon after the conversion?

It doesn't, Deacon Lance, anymore than Jihad in North Africa under the Crusades could prove that Copts "fiercely" accepted Islam soon after their own forced conversion.
It is but one example that disproves the ongoing Moscow propaganda.  The  fact that the Greek Catholic Eparchies of Lviv, Przemysl, Ivano-Frankivsk, Mukachevo, and Presov survived what they did and emerged stronger is another.
Your claim was:
Stop believing the propaganda.  Do you think if we were forced we would have developed such a fierce loyalty in such a short span of time?
You haven't proven that way back in the 16th-17th centuries the general Byzantine Catholic population developed "fierce loyalty" to Rome "soon after" Poland forced them to convert from Orthodoxy.

The 13 Prautlin martyrs in the 19th century doesn't count.
The fact that Western Ukraine stayed Catholic for about four centuries of Catholic rule up to the mid-20th century when Stalin got it doesn't count either.

North Africa developed fierce loyalty to Islam several centuries after the Arab conquest. But that's not good evidence that the Copts' Islamicization was voluntary.
I am considering the 1600s to the 1900s the short span of time.  But yes after Chelm Eparchy was liquidated and Tsar Nicholas re-legalized the Catholic Church, a third returned to the Catholic Church even though they were only allowed the Latin Rite.
 

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Asteriktos said:
The young fogey said:
In Christianity, it's Rome or the abyss.
What does Mirror Universe Evil Kira have to do with this thread?  Are we next going to have a .gif featuring Mirror Universe Evil Gay Worf?

That said, DS9, yum.  Rather more appealing than reading my faith abused by some chap in a fedora.  I think I shall tune in via Netflix presently. 
 
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