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Supporting the Western Rite

ICXCNIKA

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Hi all,

I know over the course of the years I have talked to other members on this forum who like myself are members of the Eastern Rite but are supportive of the Western Rite. I really wish there was a WR parish/mission near me.

What can we do to help it grow? I for one am going to start making a small monthly contribution to the WR. If anyone has any other ideas I would be glad to hear it.
 

xOrthodox4Christx

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Is there any liturgical training offered in seminaries for the Western Rite? If not, that's one way to support it. Teach priests to celebrate in both forms.
 

ICXCNIKA

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xOrthodox4Christx said:
Is there any liturgical training offered in seminaries for the Western Rite? If not, that's one way to support it. Teach priests to celebrate in both forms.
I don't know too much about the AWRV. I think that both WRV's have courses available regarding Orthodox Theology but I am thinking that actual liturgical training for the WR is done in house. I could be wrong but I think the priests of the RWRV are encouraged to also learn the ER which to me makes a great deal of sense.
 

ialmisry

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Greater awareness would be key. However, that would run up against the hurdle of opposition to it (look at the diktat of the GOA bishop in SF a while back on this issue).
 

ICXCNIKA

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ialmisry said:
Greater awareness would be key. However, that would run up against the hurdle of opposition to it (look at the diktat of the GOA bishop in SF a while back on this issue).
While I find the opposition disheartening I think that I am going to concentrate on those who share my optimism and goals. At the same time, I want to make clear to my fellow ER Orthodox: the WR is not trying to compete with or replace the ER.

If I move to an area that does not have an established parish I would see about starting a WR mission. 

 

ICXCNIKA

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ialmisry said:
Greater awareness would be key. However, that would run up against the hurdle of opposition to it (look at the diktat of the GOA bishop in SF a while back on this issue).
Re: Greater awareness, were thinking amongst Orthodox faithful or more among unchurched or those looking for the True Church?

Are we thinking an advertising campaign (nothing tacky) ad in the paper etc.?
 

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Why do you want to support the Western Rite. What would be the goal of that support? What do you want to accomplish?
 

primuspilus

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What can we do to help it grow?
Quieting bishops critical of it that have no idea what they're talking about.....lookin at you Met. Kallistos.

I was going to make a separate post about it, but here is as good a place as any. Of course, some members of my parish are on these forums, so Im sure this'll get to my priest, but here we go.

Im actually having some problems lately, concerning the WR. It has nothing to do with anything "that matters" really. Its the community aspect in Orthodoxy that I feel Im missing as being a member of the WR. I feel like we're an island unto ourselves. We can't relate on some topics of conversation and I feel kind of left out. The subjects immediately coming to mind are conversations about the liturgy, or some feast days. I've actually never participated in the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom at all, and I've been Orthodox for 5 years. I feel like that my isolation is not helped by those in authority, who give us a separate bishop (Bp. John, who I love and respect deeply, but we ALSO have our "actual" bishop, Bishop Thomas, also a great man). There are other reasons I feel this way. Its getting to the point where Im thinking about leaving the WR because its like we're an afterthought, and if we were existing or not, nobody in leadership would really care.

Overthinking? Maybe this is a symptom of the support question that ICXCNIKA raised?

PP

 

Iconodule

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The biggest hurdle is probably just the assumption that Byzantine culture is superior. You can see this all over the place, even in the Western Rite itself.
 

primuspilus

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The biggest hurdle is probably just the assumption that Byzantine culture is superior.
If the recent "Great and Holy Council" is any evidence, this is certainly not true.

You can see this all over the place, even in the Western Rite itself
yeah. I see it in alot of places.

I dont think it is or anything, its just so permeates all aspects of Orthodoxy that anyone outside of it (like the WR, especially the former-Episcopalian/Anglical flavor) are kind of walled off IMO.

PP
 

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xOrthodox4Christx said:
Is there any liturgical training offered in seminaries for the Western Rite?
AFAIK, the Antiochian St. Stephen's course still offers a Western Rite track, and part of that includes  a few in-person sessions over three years. I'm not sure how much is theology and how much is liturgics, though.

Those who know can correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that most folks going through St. Stephens on that track would be coming from some sort of Anglican continuum background anyway and learning liturgics is more a matter of picking up the tweaks to a liturgy that isn't terribly different to begin with.
 

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mike said:
Why do you want to support the Western Rite. What would be the goal of that support? What do you want to accomplish?
I want to support the WR because it speaks to my soul. If I didn't grow up in it maybe I wouldn't feel that way. I would have joined orthodoxy 5 years earlier if their was a WR for me to attend. Also, I feel like the WR belongs to the Orthodox Church just as much as the Byzantine Rite. So a reestablishment is, in my opinion, in Orthodoxy's best interest.

The Goal would be to help the spread of the western rite missions and parishes across North America which would allow us to show western christians that the True Church does exist and it looks very much like what you cherish. Here in the US I would say that we have 70 million Romans and  many former romans that left a church that violated their trust in some way. They need a home and it is our responsibility to evangelize them and to bring them home.

I hope that makes sense.

 

Opus118

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ialmisry said:
However, that would run up against the hurdle of opposition to it (look at the diktat of the GOA bishop in SF a while back on this issue).
I am curious as to what you are referring to. The only thing I am familiar with is that the Mass would be approximately 50% Latin and 50% Greek, with the sermon in English.

 

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ICXCNIKA said:
mike said:
Why do you want to support the Western Rite. What would be the goal of that support? What do you want to accomplish?
I want to support the WR because it speaks to my soul. If I didn't grow up in it maybe I wouldn't feel that way. I would have joined orthodoxy 5 years earlier if their was a WR for me to attend. Also, I feel like the WR belongs to the Orthodox Church just as much as the Byzantine Rite. So a reestablishment is, in my opinion, in Orthodoxy's best interest.

The Goal would be to help the spread of the western rite missions and parishes across North America which would allow us to show western christians that the True Church does exist and it looks very much like what you cherish. Here in the US I would say that we have 70 million Romans and  many former romans that left a church that violated their trust in some way. They need a home and it is our responsibility to evangelize them and to bring them home.

I hope that makes sense.
The Western Rite is a niche inside a niche. From what it seems here, most of the converts either do not feel any familiarity between the current liturgics in their Churches and current WROxy so it is no more familiar to them than Byantine rite or due to abuses of Western tradition they want to run from it as far as possible. That leaves a small group of liturgical enthusiasts.

One wouldn't make WROxy a massive movent even if he stood on his ears.
 

WPM

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Don't see how it relates to anything.
 

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WPM said:
Don't see how it relates to anything.
Please stop saying this. It's annoying.
 

WPM

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ICXCNIKA said:
Hi all,

I know over the course of the years I have talked to other members on this forum who like myself are members of the Eastern Rite but are supportive of the Western Rite. I really wish there was a WR parish/mission near me.

What can we do to help it grow? I for one am going to start making a small monthly contribution to the WR. If anyone has any other ideas I would be glad to hear it.
I know how to get to St. Peter's church in Ft. Worth which is Western Rite.
 

rakovsky

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ICXCNIKA said:
I really wish there was a WR parish/mission near me.
Think about making a personal pilgrimage to one of the WR parishes or monasteries in Wisconsin now and then.

ROCOR Western Rite:
Holy Zion Orthodox Hermitage in Exile
http://rwrv.org/directory.html?type=details&id=31
7835 W. Highway Q
Watertown, WI 53098
Phone: (920) 262-8800
(56 minutes away)

St. Paul the Apostle Western-Rite Stavropegial Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
2019 29th Street
Kenosha, WI 53140
( 2 hours 5 minutes away from you)
http://www.saintpaulorthodoxchurch.org/
Phone: (262) 997-0725

It's not that uncommon for someone to travel over an hour to work (I used to drive 45 minutes each way) or visit relatives hours a way once a month.
 

ICXCNIKA

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rakovsky said:
ICXCNIKA said:
I really wish there was a WR parish/mission near me.
Think about making a personal pilgrimage to one of the WR parishes or monasteries in Wisconsin now and then.

ROCOR Western Rite:
Holy Zion Orthodox Hermitage in Exile
http://rwrv.org/directory.html?type=details&id=31
7835 W. Highway Q
Watertown, WI 53098
Phone: (920) 262-8800
(56 minutes away)

St. Paul the Apostle Western-Rite Stavropegial Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
2019 29th Street
Kenosha, WI 53140
( 2 hours 5 minutes away from you)
http://www.saintpaulorthodoxchurch.org/
Phone: (262) 997-0725

It's not that uncommon for someone to travel over an hour to work (I used to drive 45 minutes each way) or visit relatives hours a way once a month.
That is an excellent idea. I did not find the 2nd church you listed on their website (rwrv.org) Unless, I just keep missing it. Maybe it closed down? I will definitely check into visiting the 1st one you listed. Thanks.
 

rakovsky

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ICXCNIKA said:
I did not find the 2nd church you listed on their website (rwrv.org) Unless, I just keep missing it. Maybe it closed down?
I don't know, since their site is down.
But they are still in the ROCOR directory:

http://directory.stinnocentpress.com/viewparish.cgi?Uid=439&lang=en
E-mail: fatherpeter@wi.rr.com
Priest Peter de Haas, Rector
 

Justin Kolodziej

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rakovsky said:
ICXCNIKA said:
I did not find the 2nd church you listed on their website (rwrv.org) Unless, I just keep missing it. Maybe it closed down?
I don't know, since their site is down.
But they are still in the ROCOR directory:

http://directory.stinnocentpress.com/viewparish.cgi?Uid=439&lang=en
E-mail: fatherpeter@wi.rr.com
Priest Peter de Haas, Rector
Looks like they moved the Western Rite site to http://www.rocor-wr.org/ and it's listed in the monasteries section.
Anyway, it hasn't really gone as St. Tikhon had hoped, but only God really knows what will happen with the Western Rite.
 

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primuspilus said:
What can we do to help it grow?
Quieting bishops critical of it that have no idea what they're talking about.....lookin at you Met. Kallistos.

I was going to make a separate post about it, but here is as good a place as any. Of course, some members of my parish are on these forums, so Im sure this'll get to my priest, but here we go.

Im actually having some problems lately, concerning the WR. It has nothing to do with anything "that matters" really. Its the community aspect in Orthodoxy that I feel Im missing as being a member of the WR. I feel like we're an island unto ourselves. We can't relate on some topics of conversation and I feel kind of left out. The subjects immediately coming to mind are conversations about the liturgy, or some feast days. I've actually never participated in the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom at all, and I've been Orthodox for 5 years. I feel like that my isolation is not helped by those in authority, who give us a separate bishop (Bp. John, who I love and respect deeply, but we ALSO have our "actual" bishop, Bishop Thomas, also a great man). There are other reasons I feel this way. Its getting to the point where Im thinking about leaving the WR because its like we're an afterthought, and if we were existing or not, nobody in leadership would really care.

Overthinking? Maybe this is a symptom of the support question that ICXCNIKA raised?

PP
It's interesting for me to see that there are 5 Antiochian Western rite parishes in Texas.  It looks like some of them are quite large.  Do you know anything about how everything got started there and why it continues to grow?
 

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This isn't a unique thing at all. When I started becoming Orthodox, because of my geographical situation at the time I was spending about equal time in Coptic, Ethiopian, Greek, and Kenyan Orthodox churches. (It was complicated, lol.) Thanks to that from early on I knew Orthodoxy as a universal thing present in and expressed by many different cultures. But I've met plenty of people of all backgrounds who only know their rite and expression of Orthodoxy. My current home parish is Byzantine Rite, but whenever I can I visit churches of other backgrounds and rites to get a taste of universal Orthodoxy and a reminder that Byzantine isn't The Way to be Orthodox.

So yeah, visit other places to get a better idea of what people are going on about and to see the breadth of our Orthodoxy, but don't sweat being of your own rite and heritage, there's nothing wrong with (or unusual about) that!


primuspilus said:
What can we do to help it grow?
Quieting bishops critical of it that have no idea what they're talking about.....lookin at you Met. Kallistos.

I was going to make a separate post about it, but here is as good a place as any. Of course, some members of my parish are on these forums, so Im sure this'll get to my priest, but here we go.

Im actually having some problems lately, concerning the WR. It has nothing to do with anything "that matters" really. Its the community aspect in Orthodoxy that I feel Im missing as being a member of the WR. I feel like we're an island unto ourselves. We can't relate on some topics of conversation and I feel kind of left out. The subjects immediately coming to mind are conversations about the liturgy, or some feast days. I've actually never participated in the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom at all, and I've been Orthodox for 5 years. I feel like that my isolation is not helped by those in authority, who give us a separate bishop (Bp. John, who I love and respect deeply, but we ALSO have our "actual" bishop, Bishop Thomas, also a great man). There are other reasons I feel this way. Its getting to the point where Im thinking about leaving the WR because its like we're an afterthought, and if we were existing or not, nobody in leadership would really care.

Overthinking? Maybe this is a symptom of the support question that ICXCNIKA raised?

PP
 

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Pravoslavbob said:
It's interesting for me to see that there are 5 Antiochian Western rite parishes in Texas.  It looks like some of them are quite large.  Do you know anything about how everything got started there and why it continues to grow?
I know that my Texan Western Rite Parish got its start from the Priest and many parishioners of a local Episcopalian church converting en masse to Orthodoxy.  Considering that the entire Fort Worth Diocese of the Episcopal Church ended up leaving the Episcopal Church, I would assume that some of the other Texas WR parishes may have had similar starts.  I don't know that for a fact, though  ;)
 

Pravoslavbob

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rft183 said:
Pravoslavbob said:
It's interesting for me to see that there are 5 Antiochian Western rite parishes in Texas.  It looks like some of them are quite large.  Do you know anything about how everything got started there and why it continues to grow?
I know that my Texan Western Rite Parish got its start from the Priest and many parishioners of a local Episcopalian church converting en masse to Orthodoxy.  Considering that the entire Fort Worth Diocese of the Episcopal Church ended up leaving the Episcopal Church, I would assume that some of the other Texas WR parishes may have had similar starts.  I don't know that for a fact, though  ;)
Wow, that's very interesting!  How do you think life has changed for parishioners since the move to Orthodoxy? 
 

primuspilus

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rft183 said:
Pravoslavbob said:
It's interesting for me to see that there are 5 Antiochian Western rite parishes in Texas.  It looks like some of them are quite large.  Do you know anything about how everything got started there and why it continues to grow?
I know that my Texan Western Rite Parish got its start from the Priest and many parishioners of a local Episcopalian church converting en masse to Orthodoxy.  Considering that the entire Fort Worth Diocese of the Episcopal Church ended up leaving the Episcopal Church, I would assume that some of the other Texas WR parishes may have had similar starts.  I don't know that for a fact, though  ;)
Yeah. Same here. My priest was a former Bishop who left with some parishioners. Same circumstance, except our Episcopal Church is only nominally still with the greater communion.

PP
 

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I'm quite intrigued by the traditional Latin Mass so would certainly attend a Western Rite parish if I had the opportunity. Problem is that I don't even think Canada has any. If we do they're probably in like Toronto or something, which is the other side of the country...
 

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MariaJLM said:
I'm quite intrigued by the traditional Latin Mass so would certainly attend a Western Rite parish if I had the opportunity. Problem is that I don't even think Canada has any. If we do they're probably in like Toronto or something, which is the other side of the country...
There seem to be parishes near Ontario and Prince Edward Island. The nearest WRO parishes to you are probably in Washington.  :p I'd really like to know WR Orthodoxy too, there's a parish in a ten minute walk from my home, but it's in schism (Orthodox Church of France, I think) and the services are always simultaneous to those of my own parish, I believe.
 

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RaphaCam said:
MariaJLM said:
I'm quite intrigued by the traditional Latin Mass so would certainly attend a Western Rite parish if I had the opportunity. Problem is that I don't even think Canada has any. If we do they're probably in like Toronto or something, which is the other side of the country...
There seem to be parishes near Ontario and Prince Edward Island. The nearest WRO parishes to you are probably in Washington.  :p I'd really like to know WR Orthodoxy too, there's a parish in a ten minute walk from my home, but it's in schism (Orthodox Church of France, I think) and the services are always simultaneous to those of my own parish, I believe.
Yea, too far and travelling to Washington just for liturgy would be nuts. I would need money and a passport(which I do have, but somehow lost).
 

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I know that I said I would take a break, but the temptation after lurking is too much.

Anyways, even for me - as a college student who is still living at home with my parents - the distance is even more burdensome. There is a small Western Rite Orthodox Mission under ROCOR at Northville, Michigan, which is 2 and a half hours away from where I live - Cleveland. However, as one who hasn't had tremendous experience driving on highways - upon telling my parents of my plans of such an idea for a trip, they raised their eyebrows and looked at me as though I was nuts - and the answer is obviously "no, not until you become an expert driver, and even then please don't do that."

There's literally like an Orthodox Church jurisdiction of every kind near Cleveland (that is, at most 30 minutes away from where I live) EXCEPT Western Rite. There's Greek, Serbian, Russian, OCA, Antiochian, even some out of communion churches like Ukrainian and Macedonian. However, no Western Rite whatsoever.

I know I'm spoiled, but I'm a fallen human and a great sinner.

I'm thankful to God the variety I've been given, it's a wonderful bouquet of flowers (I love the Russian liturgical Tradition personally out of these, and want to experience a ROCOR liturgy and maybe consider joining ROCOR)- but as someone who has grown up in a very liturgical Novus Ordo Catholic Church, and loves the Tridentine Mass greatly including some of their venerable traditions (like the Asperges - chanting portions of Psalm 50 while sprinkling people with Holy Water is awesome) the Western Rite does speak to my soul to a degree. To at least experience the Roman Liturgy in its proper form of Orthodoxy - at least once in my life - would be pleasant.

After a lot of thought - I still stand by my love of a more "organic development" of Liturgy and see that as more in line with who I am (seeing almost completely unbroken Tradition in countries for thousands of years with organic cultural changes), and I feel more comfortable in a Byzantine setting - I think God wants me to be Eastern - nevertheless, it would be cool to experience an Orthodox rendition of the West how it was.
 

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I should also state that I've kind of carried over a more explicit tradition of the Roman Catholic Church (that is, from what Gregory Hesse has stated - but whom I think was fully correct) - that is, God ordains by His choosing what liturgical tradition you are to be a part of for your entire life. For example, if you were born a Melkite (an Antiochian Catholic), you have a duty to do your best to make the Melkite tradition a part of your life. If you can't find a Melkite church, find a Byzantine Catholic church. If you can't find a Byzantine Catholic church, find a Maronite or Coptic Catholic church. If you can't find these, then you can attend a Roman Mass.

My experiences with Orthodoxy have always been in the context of Russia / OCA. I learned about the Orthodox Church when I first studied Russian history in high school, which I went out of my way to read; the first Divine Liturgy I attended for an "ecumenism" project in my Catholic high school was OCA (the Greek Church was already taken; one religion per person), and my first time seriously considering Orthodoxy was talking with a friend who would talk theology and politics with me casually, to which I attended literally the closest Orthodox Church to me - which was an OCA Church that he just happened to be a part of.

I think that is where I am destined liturgically by the hand-pickings of God - Russian, either in the form of OCA or ROCOR.
 
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