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The Beloved Russian Old Ritualist Believers

Ebor

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theodore said:
Prior to the Protestant Reformation, the language used by people on the British Isles (and all of Western Europe for that matter) was LATIN. 
But there were still some things in the various local languages such as the links I posted on the gospels and the Lord's Prayer and others in Anglo-Saxon.

Of all the languages out there, English is among the most adaptable, borrowing words from a multiplicity of different sources and languages. 
Indeed.  I have read of a case of a business venture between a German company and one in a place that spoke a form of Chinese.  The common language was English.

Ebor
 

Ebor

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Asteriktos said:
Ebor,

Also, even supposing that you do believe in sacred languages, it was hardly strange throughout Church history for sacred things to be translated into vulgar tongues. Even John Chrysostom (horrors!) did this when he was exiled.
True.  It's not such a wild and evil idea, it seems to me, to teach people in the language that *they* know instead of making some kind of "inner ring" "special group" "only the ones who learn the One True Speech are accepted" thing.  It sounds kind of gnostic to me.  ;)


And for the record, I don't believe that there is some kind of 'sacred language' for Christianity.  :)

Ebor
 

PeterTheAleut

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A couple of online articles about Old Believers that I found very informative (Evidently, they're not as opposed to new-fangled technologies as Hopeful Faithful might like us to believe.  Just don't be caught with a cigarette in your mouth!):

Collection of Old Believer History and Tradition, compiled by Paul J. Wigowsky


Old Believers in Alaska, by Vitali Vitaliev

The first several paragraphs of this article lay down the foundation of the general Russian Orthodox presence in Alaska, so you won't find anything specific about the Old Believers until the paragraph I quote below.
One thing, however, is certain. Had Alaska stayed Russian and then Soviet, paradoxically, it would never have become home to the world's most obscure community of Russian outcasts. These are confined to a handful of small villages: Nikolaevsk, Voznesenka, Razdolna, Kachemak-Selo, Port Graham and Nanwalek - no more than 2 or 3 thousand people altogether - in the south-west of the Kenai Peninsula. Visitors are not welcome there, but I was lucky - my name must have helped.
Some paragraphs (emphases mine) from this article that I found quite enlightening within the context of this thread and Hopeful Faithful's English language thread:

The majority of Nikolaevsk residents came to Alaska in 1968 from Brazil, via Oregon, where they survived by growing wheat and corn. In the words of Father Kondratiy Fefelov, with whom I spoke inside the village church of St. Nicholas, they left Brazil because of its poverty - "We couldn't sell our crops" - and Oregon, in fear of the "corruptive influence" the American media, mainly television, could have on their children, traditionally brought up in strict accordance with the Old Believers' religious values. "We wanted to get away from Western civilisation, with all its drugs and sexes (sic), and to be on our own…"

"How come you allow this?" I asked him pointing at a satellite dish on the roof of a neighbouring house. The priest waved his hand nervously.

"We had to slacken up eventually. You ban television - and the kids run to our American neighbours, or go to the cinema, which is even more dissipating…" He pronounced "cinema" with disgust - in precisely the same way the Old Believers of Peter the Great times must have uttered the hated word "reform".
And yet, the feared Western civilisation has crept its way into this closed, anachronistic world.

"We have a problem with young Russian village guys who are in the habit of getting drunk and driving their pick-up trucks at breakneck speed across the town," a tourism official in Homer confided in me. When I asked the ‘Batiushka’ about it, he pretended he didn't hear the question. In a challenge to the age-long traditions of male domination, several Nikolaevsk women found themselves jobs in Homer, whereas a couple of others chose to leave the community altogether and moved into the "real world", where, as one Nikolaevsk resident told me with horror, "they wear shorts and even use make-up". On the other hand, three American families came to live in Nikolaevsk and seem to be getting along well with the Russians.

Yet even the most conformist of the Old Believers cannot dismiss all the fruits of Western civilisation as harmful. The Batiushka himself was telling me with pride about the villagers' own small fleet of ultra-modern fishing vessels, with latest electronic equipment - fishing constitutes their main source of income. Nikolaevsk boasts an excellent secondary school, one of the best in Alaska, where all the subjects, except for Russian, are taught in English. No wonder the village teenagers prefer communicating in English, although most of them retain a reasonably good command of their melodious old-fashioned Russian language. As for smaller kids, they hardly speak any Russian at all.

"They don't want to learn Russian," complained Nina Fefelova, at whose house I was put up for the night. Nina, herself an Old Believer, came to Nikolaevsk from the Russian Far East seven years ago and married one of ‘Batiushka's’ sons, a deacon called Denis. She taught Russian at the village school.
 

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Elder Cleopa of Romania had to deal with the Old Believers over there. He brought many of them back into the fold.
 

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Orthodox Bagpiper said:
Elder Cleopa of Romania had to deal with the Old Believers over there. He brought many of them back into the fold.
I'm interested to know how he did it.
 
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PeterTheAleut said:
A couple of online articles about Old Believers that I found very informative (Evidently, they're not as opposed to new-fangled technologies as Hopeful Faithful might like us to believe.  Just don't be caught with a cigarette in your mouth!):

Collection of Old Believer History and Tradition, compiled by Paul J. Wigowsky


Old Believers in Alaska, by Vitali Vitaliev

The first several paragraphs of this article lay down the foundation of the general Russian Orthodox presence in Alaska, so you won't find anything specific about the Old Believers until the paragraph I quote below.
Some paragraphs (emphases mine) from this article that I found quite enlightening within the context of this thread and Hopeful Faithful's English language thread:

Greetings Peter,

Wigowsky is not practicing strict Old Belief, as far as I last knew. But many stricter Old Believers from his Oregon area did in fact move to Alaska in order to be removed from the unchristian practices. Likewise, Vitaliev never practiced strict Old Belief either. So those sources are not the best sources, sadly. There are at least 7 Old Believer villages in Alaska, caused in large part to the compromises with this world. We all make our choices. But there are still some strict Old Believers in Oregon and Alaska, but you will not find Wigowsky or Vitaliev telling much about them.

I made a page about tobacco:

http://mymartyrdom.com/tobacco.htm

Forgive, John




 

PeterTheAleut

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Hopeful Faithful said:
By forked tongue and by the weakness of those Old Believers.
Hopeful Faithful said:
Wigowsky is not practicing strict Old Belief, as far as I last knew. But many stricter Old Believers from his Oregon area did in fact move to Alaska in order to be removed from the unchristian practices. Likewise, Vitaliev never practiced strict Old Belief either. So those sources are not the best sources, sadly. There are at least 7 Old Believer villages in Alaska, caused in large part to the compromises with this world. We all make our choices. But there are still some strict Old Believers in Oregon and Alaska, but you will not find Wigowsky or Vitaliev telling much about them.
And you're somehow a more credible authority than the respected man of God Elder Cleopas of Romania, than Paul Wigowsky and Vitaly Vitaliev?  Rather than denigrate the credibility of those we respect, which serves only to diminish your credibility with us, why don't you strive to establish why we should deem you credible?
 
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I've read the history of the Old Believers and their persecutions were totally unjustified but so is the persecution of anybody. Truly there are Old Beleivers out there who can discourse more constructively than the views that have been presented in the forum that amount to varying signs of the cross and the English language as being the marks of Satan. Or perhaps the Old Believers just want to be left alone so all we hear is the lunatic fringe (which all human assemblies have). Lord have mercy.
 

PeterTheAleut

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recent convert said:
Or perhaps the Old Believers just want to be left alone so all we hear is the lunatic fringe (which all human assemblies have).
From what I've read, most Old Believers just want to be left alone.  They tend to be rather closed to outsiders with their foreign ideas.
 
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Ebor said:
"mongoloid"?  <insert emoticon of one raised eyebrow here>  What does that word mean *to you* and what historical texts have you read that used it please?

"Latin" reforms?  Yet in some of your earlier rants they were described as "greek". On what do you base calling them Latin please?

And just for the record, the way that Nikon acted was harsh and (in this person's opinion wrong), but I don't see much difference in how you are declaring that there is Only One Right Way(tm).

Do you actually belong to a parish?  Participate in weekly services with others?

Which EO churches? citations please?  And is it the praxis that is considered right?  In what way was *belief* in the basic doctines different as opposed to *praxis*? 


Ebor
Greetings Ebor,

I was unaware till just now about all these other posts over here. It will take me a while but I will work on giving good answers to all the questions. I have a life other than responding to these posts so it may take me a while. The word mongoloid, at that place, is related to the more important word that immediatly follows it, muslims. Most dictionaries suggest that a secondary meaning of the word is offensive towards Down syndrome, I do not mean to use the word in that secondary meaning. Any study of the downfall of Constantinople (something I suggest you do) will inform you that muslims, the mongol hordes, won Constantinople. One text that I recall talking about these facts was written by Ware. This is my meaning. I work to control those raised eyebrows, something I am sure you cannot understand at this point. About the Greek/Latin reforms, of the Eastern Orthodox Churches it was the Greeks who first succumbed to Latin ideas. So I have used both Greek and Latin somewhat interchangably. I will work on making this point more clear, thank you. Some of the Latin heretical ideas which overcame the Greeks were things like the God the Father icons, Augustinianism, the form of the hand in gestures like the personal sign of the cross or clerical blessings, etc., etc., etc. All of those particular points I just mention began from the influence which the Latins imparted to the Greeks during the time when the Crusaders sacked Constantinople. If a person carefully considers the facts these things are undeniable. I a sure that you do not understand the events in this way right now, but hopefully you will learn about them. As far as the one way idea goes, I simply want to obey God and not men, I believe that Christ taught about there being just one way. I know that this post of yours was first given to fatman, but speaking for myself I can say that as a person at an introductory level to the strict Old Believers that I do not personally recognize there being any right believing bishops left on earth at this present time. So there are no consecrated parishes on earth at this time either. I do have a small chapel here where I do what might be understood as something like reader services on a daily basis. I am only a beginner remember. There are no other Old Believers in San Diego that I know of but I have worshipped with others at every opportunity, never neglecting such things. I have been fortunate to have a friend from Russia who is decended from a line of Old Believers who often visits me and I visit him. We call each other "brat" which means brother. I also talk as regularly as possible with Old Believers from around the world and seek the personal advise from elder more respected Old Believers, often over 90 years old. From the start of the Nikon Greek/Latin reforms which caused the Russian Schism the Greeks never were against the Old Believers, to the contrary, they did not want to participate in the robber council of 1666. Other EO churches which have concluded that Old Belief is correct are the Russians theselves, which effectively overturns the council of 1666 anyway. If I have the facts right, off the top of my head, the Russian church did this around 1979. ROCOR also did the same around the same time. As far as in what way was *belief* in the basic doctines different as opposed to *praxis* I can tell you that many of those points have already been given, such as the sign of the cross, shortening of worship, acceptance of Latin sprinkle baptism for converts, etc., etc., etc. I am not sure how to keep up with all the posts here, but I will do what I can. Please do not think that am avoiding questions. I do care, or I would not be here.

Forgive, John











 
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Asteriktos said:
So, essentially, you don't actually need the Church, since God will guide you correctly if you just stay faithful to him. In other words, Protestantism is justified within your ultra-(un)traditional world view. Interesting. 8)
Greetings Asteriktos,

Wrong! Anyone who worships in spirit and truth is part of the Church which is eternally in heaven. We should all know that in such worship heaven is on earth. The law of God is written on each persons heart so that none of us are with any excuse. Protestant is not justified one iota and I certainly do not have or desire any ultra-(un)traditional world view, so it is not that interesting. What is interesting is obeying God rather than man. We all make our choices as far as we each are believing. Time will soon be telling how we all have done.

Forgive, John



 

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PeterTheAleut said:
From what I've read, most Old Believers just want to be left alone.  They tend to be rather closed to outsiders with their foreign ideas.
Which confirms something I thought based on the articles linked here earlier: they parallel the Amish.
 

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The young fogey said:
Which confirms something I thought based on the articles linked here earlier: they parallel the Amish.
I thought of my Amish neighbors quite often as this thread developed. They do use 'English'...  :eek:
 

ozgeorge

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Αριστοκλής said:
They do use 'English'... 
I thought that's just what they called us. :D
"The metric system is a tool of the devil. My car gets 6 rods to the hogshead, and that's the way I likes it." -Abe Simpson.
 
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Hopeful Faithful said:
Greetings Asteriktos,

Wrong! Anyone who worships in spirit and truth is part of the Church which is eternally in heaven. We should all know that in such worship heaven is on earth. The law of God is written on each persons heart so that none of us are with any excuse. Protestant is not justified one iota and I certainly do not have or desire any ultra-(un)traditional world view, so it is not that interesting. What is interesting is obeying God rather than man. We all make our choices as far as we each are believing. Time will soon be telling how we all have done.
So you are acknowledging the non juridical possibility of salvation to those who know God's law of right and wrong as st. Paul writes about in Romans 2 and our Saviour illustrates in the example of the good Samaritan but see the Old Believers as repesenting the truth of the Gospel? If so, fair enough, it would be a good starting point to any Christian to clarify so first and then enumerate apologetic. Perhaps meaningful discussion could progress and the trap of phariseeism be avoided.
Forgive, John
Just a friendly moderatorial suggestion and nothing more:  You might want to figure out how to use the html quote tags to quote others' posts more clearly.  A couple of your recent posts have been hard to read because of the difficulty seeing where the quoted text ends and your reply begins.  PM me some time if you want some help with this.

- PeterTheAleut
 

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Hopeful Faithful said:
Some people are thankful.
Sorry, I'm going to need proof that (1) people exist, (2) that they read your tobacco section on your website, and (3) that they are thankful for doing so.  You don't get to just throw out claims like that without support.  Prove there are people!! :D
 

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From what I heard and read, the Old Church Slavonic was, indeed, a written language, an artificially constructed one, in a way like English. The latter was to a large extent a product of teachers of the 14th-15th century Grammar schools in old England; they made words largely from mediaeval Latin, modifying them to accommodate the Anglo-Saxon vernacular of the simpletons and the Old French vernacular of the nobility. The former was constructed largely by Bulgarian and Macedonian missionaries-monks, based more on THEIR language than on the language of the local population.
 

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John,

...We all make our choices as far as we each are believing. Time will soon be telling how we all have done.
I am believing that I'll soon be taking a dirt nap. ZZZzzz.


Veniamin,

Prove there are people!!
Personally, I think we're all holograms in some holodeck program in the 24th century. I have yet to be proven wrong on that. ;D  :p
 

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The Amish do call all outsiders 'English' (don't know if they use that for other Pennsylvania German groups they're not in communion with) and speak three languages: their own German dialect, originally Palatinate/Swiss German but transformed after centuries in America, AFAIK not a written language; standard German, their liturgical and IIRC preaching language, which they learn to read Luther's Bible; and English with a standard American accent.

I think Heorhij is generally right about the origin of Church Slavonic: an artificial language based on the common Slavic ones at the time which were very similar to each other, mutually intelligible, so the Macedonian or Bulgarian that SS. Cyril and Methodius learnt growing up in Salonika worked pretty well talking to the Czechs and Slovaks.

Russian is a closely related sister language to Slavonic. Not descended from it like the Romance languages are from Latin but like I said, once nearly the same but it gradually changed. (They're still fairly similar though, about like this is to Tyndale's or maybe Chaucer's English: largely intelligible but weird-sounding.)
 
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PeterTheAleut said:
The traditional missionary practice of the Orthodox Church has always been to preach the Gospel and translate the Scriptures and service books into the languages of the indigenous people to whom we preach so that they can understand and participate.  During the missionary work of Ss. Cyril and Methodius and, later, Prince St. Vladimir (whose memory we commemorate tomorrow in the New Calendar churches) Slavonic was the native language of the Russian people.  But as time progressed, the Slavonic language in Russia evolved into modern Russian--languages do this.  Now most Russians don't understand Slavonic except for what they might hear in church; they certainly don't speak this tongue in their daily relations, AFAIK.  Does not our traditional focus on making the Scriptures and service books understandable to the average churchman require, then, that we continue to update the language used in these sacred books to reflect the idioms of the current vernacular?  IMO, the Orthodox should be very uncomfortable with any sentiment that venerates an ancient language as divinely inspired, considers the modern language vulgar and unfit for sacred use, and thus refuses to update its church language.  (The strictest Old Ritualist adherence to Old Slavonic also strikes me as quite phyletistic in its Russian nationalism, but I guess that's more properly the subject of another post.)

Greetings Peter,

With the Latin influenced Orthodox we do see a traditional missionary practice of translating the Scriptures into indigenous languages.  Ss. Cyril and Methodius work cannot be compared with using English. Slavonic is truly more Greek than the native language of the Russian people. The strict Old Believers actually reject the late Czardom and Russian nationality after Nikon. They more respect the heritage of that that good Greeks gave them. So the Old Believers are not at all phyletistic.

Forgive, John




 

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The young fogey said:
The Amish do call all outsiders 'English' (don't know if they use that for other Pennsylvania German groups they're not in communion with) and speak three languages: their own German dialect, originally Palatinate/Swiss German but transformed after centuries in America, AFAIK not a written language; standard German, their liturgical and IIRC preaching language, which they learn to read Luther's Bible; and English with a standard American accent.

I think Heorhij is generally right about the origin of Church Slavonic: an artificial language based on the common Slavic ones at the time which were very similar to each other, mutually intelligible, so the Macedonian or Bulgarian that SS. Cyril and Methodius learnt growing up in Salonika worked pretty well talking to the Czechs and Slovaks.

Russian is a closely related sister language to Slavonic. Not descended from it like the Romance languages are from Latin but like I said, once nearly the same but it gradually changed. (They're still fairly similar though, about like this is to Tyndale's or maybe Chaucer's English: largely intelligible but weird-sounding.)
Thank you, Serge. I agree: even though I've never been schooled in Old Church Slavonic, I can easily understand pretty much every sentence in any prayer or akathist or kontakion written in this language, because I grew up in the former USSR and Russian is one of my two "first" languages (Ukrainian is the other). But it does, indeed, sound very strange. There are even some jokes about it. :)

As for the vernacular Russian being once very similar to the Old Church Slavonic, I think it's a bit more complicated. During the early Middle Ages, a part of the population of the Kievan Rus allegedly spoke the language of the "Slovo o Polku Igoreve" ("The Poem About the Military Expedition of Prince Igor," a 12th century document that some consider a forgery, sort of like Ossian's). Another part, especially in the northeastern region, apparently spoke languages and dialects of Finnish origin (just consider the toponyms - Moskva, Vyaz'ma, Tot'ma, Klyaz'ma, Kostroma, Muroma etc. - "va" is a Finnish root for water and "ma" for river).
 
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dantxny said:
Actually, I have met several Old Believers here in America who actually suggest traditional English for Liturgy as it wouldn't make sense for one to use a foreign language.  One has to remember that the Old Believers are not a homogenius group, even those similar and many in fact considered Old Believers are not.  Also, Mr Alderman and fatman were neither raised in the Old Believer sects and I suspect that neither have much contact with them either.  Thus, take their word with a grain of salt.
Greetings Dantxny,

The Old Believers, for the most part, have all compromised their faith. How can a practicing American keep the Old Faith? I suspect that most of the people on this forum were not raised Eastern Orthodox yet they manage to speak their minds well enough here. I do have regular contact with many Old Believers from around the world. As for me I sure hope to be and remain salty.

Forgive, John



 
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So most of the Old Believers have compromised the faith. Next we will learn that only a solopsist has not.
 

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recent convert said:
So most of the Old Believers have compromised the faith. Next we will learn that only a solopsist has not.
I don't know very much about Old believers but this gentleman is obviously a Protestant. He has no bishop and he believes all  bishops are in apostasy. It is delusional faith to trust oneself or to trust a network of others who have no responsibilty for the soul's of those they advise. Protestantism.

 

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Hopeful Faithful said:
The Old Believers, for the most part, have all compromised their faith.
And only you and a select few have painstakingly managed to hold to the Truth.  ::) You're free to hold whatever beliefs you wish, John. But when you explode onto an English speaking forum blasting English (esp when it's the only language you're fluent in), you're not going to be taken seriously.
 

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Hopeful Faithful said:
Greetings Elisha,

How is it loving to reject the law and accept Latin reforms and still believe that Orthodoxy exists therein?

If there was ever a good answer to this I might begin to believe that the Old Believers are the unloving ones.

Forgive, John
John,
Where did I even mention Latin reforms?  I think you're putting words in my mouth.  I'm speaking in generalities with respect to many events that have happened far earlier than any Old Believer schism or "Latinizations" of Orthodoxy.
 
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Oh by the way Tamara, I was replying to his statement that he referred to most of the Old Beleivers as compromisers. I was not criticizing the Old Believers per se (think I had missed a detail).
 

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recent convert said:
Oh by the way Tamara, I was replying to his statement that he referred to most of the Old Beleivers as compromisers. I was not criticizing the Old Believers per se (think I had missed a detail).
I understand. I wasn't criticizing Old Believers either but I think this gentleman's faith is a type of Protestantism.
 
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Ebor said:
Some time back I had read postings by a "John Alden" (assuming that they are the same person) on another EO board. It was similar to this, and iirc at that time he was not part of any Old Believer group.  One wonders if he is now.

Ebor
[/quote

Greetings Ebor,

For three years, I, along with those strict Old Believers that I have been with, consider me to be at an introductory level to the strict Old Believers known as the Pomorsky. As far as I know there are no Old Believers here in San Diego, if that is what you mean, except when they are visiting me or with me. If I learn of any other strict Old Believers that are within reach I would very much desire to participate with them. There really are not many of them and they do stay away from outsiders, so they are difficult to locate. When the Lord returns it will be like the days of Noah, when his group only amounted to eight people, or it will be worse than the days of Sodom where only Lot's family escaped, minus his wife that left only three people. So do not expect to find much of an example of them around. As for me, who am I? Just a lowly American and son of American's, but willing to practice this good old way that is lost for all intents and purposes. Really these are those times when the whole juristiction/group mentality gets thrown out the window anyway. If anyone was really serious I could perhaps reveal more of the details of exactly those people on earth that I worship, pray and learn scripture from. But that would be of a more personal nature that I would want to disclose in this forum. Here in this place it is not possible for me to point and say exactly where I belong, but I was given a quazi baptism by a Greek priest and an OCA priest, so it is not like this forum is unkown ground to me. I will not be participating in this forum much longer, but at least a few people might better understand me for the effort. At least that is something.

Forgive, John
 

Ebor

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Hopeful Faithful said:
Greetings Ebor,

The word mongoloid, at that place, is related to the more important word that immediatly follows it, muslims. Most dictionaries suggest that a secondary meaning of the word is offensive towards Down syndrome, I do not mean to use the word in that secondary meaning.
Yes, the word has been used in the past for persons with Down Syndrome.  It is not in favour and is offensive.  As to Muslims, some people that because Muslim were from Asia such as the Seljuk Turks, but many Muslim people are of Semitic origins, just for informations sake.

If I may make a suggestion, and meaning no offense to you on this, one solid block of text can be difficult to read and to make ones ideas and different lines of thought clear.  Breaking your post up into paragraphs would be most helpful.  

Any study of the downfall of Constantinople (something I suggest you do)
One wonders why you think that you know what I have studied.  You are mistaken in thinking that I do not know anything about the conquests of the Ottoman Empire.

I work to control those raised eyebrows, something I am sure you cannot understand at this point.
Such remarks about persons that do not agree with oneself are not likely to be helpful. You do not know me personally, nor what I know or have studied.  Your "sureness" comes off as patronizing.

Ebor


 

Ebor

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If I may make another suggestion, Mr. Alden, please modify your last post so that the 'quote' brackets can set your text outside for more clarity.  I am not trying to give you a hard time, but making posts easier to read helps in discussions.

Ebor
 
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Ebor said:
If I may make another suggestion, Mr. Alden, please modify your last post so that the 'quote' brackets can set your text outside for more clarity.  I am not trying to give you a hard time, but making posts easier to read helps in discussions.

Ebor
Greetings Ebor,

No hard time felt here. You can just call me John, not giving you a hard time, it just might be easier. I will watch how the quotes go from now on to prevent that from happening.

Forgive, John





 
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Jibrail Almuhajir said:
And only you and a select few have painstakingly managed to hold to the Truth.  ::) You're free to hold whatever beliefs you wish, John. But when you explode onto an English speaking forum blasting English (esp when it's the only language you're fluent in), you're not going to be taken seriously.
Greetings Jibrail Almuhajir,

Most people have never taken Christ seriously either, I am in good company.

Forgive, John





 
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The young fogey said:
I was surprised to learn that the ROCOR Old Rite church in Erie has services in English!
I would not expect anything less from "unionists" who worship with beard shaving cross dressers and transvestites, etc.

Understanding the authentic Christian rules for beards assists in determining what is what:

http://mymartyrdom.com/rhb.htm

I don't care what you think of us "apostate" Orthodox, but such insulting language applied to the clergy and faithful of any Christian tradition represented on this board will not be tolerated. --PeterTheAleut
 
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Hopeful Faithful said:
I would not expect anything less from "unionists" who worship with beard shaving cross dressers and transvestites, etc.

Understanding the authentic Christian rules for beards assists in determining what is what:

http://mymartyrdom.com/rhb.htm

I don't care what you think of us "apostate" Orthodox, but such insulting language applied to the clergy and faithful of any Christian tradition represented on this board will not be tolerated.

Greetings board,

We all make our choices as far as how we each are believe. I will let God judge between us, as it is He that will ultimately do the judging of each of us. It is not my fault that modernist Orthodox Churches insult God left and right. So we are going round and round here. We all offend, woe to those who offend first. Who do you suppose contradicted God first, me or the modern minded Orthodox Churches? Perhaps it is good thing to be banned from such a board. I care about everyone, the truth often sees insulting. I ask you all to reconsider. What was the stand of the Russian Orthodox Church from the start with regard to the trimming of beards and wiskers? Is it merely a clerical concern only, or for all Orthodox men? When did it begin to be permitted for men to shave their face clean like a woman? It was Peter the Great, that Russian snake, who was so western minded that he changed nearly everything in Russia to be like the heretical western christians. As for me I reject such Latin reforms and I offer others who would make the sacred their own to step aside now, time is truly shorter than ever before.

Forgive, John





 
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