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The Crusades: Was this a protestant, R. Catholic or Orthodox movement

arimethea

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Amdetsion said:
'fast of the Apostles'...which takes place in June for 3 weeks. I was reminded also that the church we were visiting announced that the "fast is being reduced to 1 week in lieu of the normal 3 weeks"...

This is not as critical as what I mistakenly implied. But the point I am making is the same. The Orthodox churches mainly in America but at home as well in some cases are being overrun by secularism which to me is protestantism.
The Apostles Fast is a variable length fast based on when Pentecost ends. There are times when the Apostles fast does not exist because of the late falling of Pentecost. The shortening of the Apostles fast is not a protestant invention but part of Orthodox tradition.

I have even heard people say that sermons are protestant practices that are creeping into the church. Then what do these people make of people such as the Holy Hierarch John Chrysostom who's transfer of his relics we just celebrated?

 

Fr. George

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Αριστοκλής said:
er...maybe for the Revised Julian Calendar folks it's shortened.
Uh-huh.  For those on the Non-revised Julian Calendar the fast can be more than 40 days in length, and is never "lost" - IIRC, it is at its shortest only 1 week for the Julian Calendar.
 

Amdetsion

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arimethea said:
The Apostles Fast is a variable length fast based on when Pentecost ends. There are times when the Apostles fast does not exist because of the late falling of Pentecost. The shortening of the Apostles fast is not a protestant invention but part of Orthodox tradition.

I have even heard people say that sermons are protestant practices that are creeping into the church. Then what do these people make of people such as the Holy Hierarch John Chrysostom who's transfer of his relics we just celebrated?
Thanks for the info.

I guess I need to get out more..LOL.

Within the Ethiopian Church The Apostles fast is never reduced or voided. The feats days or reduced (in contrast to what you are saying) to allow for the fast to remain as is.

As far as sermons go; 'sermons' are the one thing among many other things that protestants took from the Holy Church and continue to embrace. The even took the word 'church'. I guess 'group' or 'institute' or the like did not sound like much. It seems that you can not really wage a real 'protest' unless you are standing on a "soap" boxes yelling to the masses. This goes even if the protest is against the church.

St Paul and all the fathers were always preaching as a function of the office they held.

 

Aristocles

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It never seems only one week when I'm the hungriest...
cleveland said:
Uh-huh.  For those on the Non-revised Julian Calendar the fast can be more than 40 days in length, and is never "lost" - IIRC, it is at its shortest only 1 week for the Julian Calendar.
It never seems only one week when I'm the hungriest... :-[
 

Veniamin

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Amdetsion said:
As far as sermons go; 'sermons' are the one thing among many other things that protestants took from the Holy Church and continue to embrace. The even took the word 'church'. I guess 'group' or 'institute' or the like did not sound like much. It seems that you can not really wage a real 'protest' unless you are standing on a "soap" boxes yelling to the masses. This goes even if the protest is against the church.
::)

Do you know anything about Protestants other than that you hate them?

The reformers were reacting to excesses in the Latin church, excesses that we Orthodox would have found repulsive, as well.  They didn't approach their reforms with an attitude of "hmm...what do I not like and want to get rid of?" but one of "hmm....what here is a foreign addition to the church and what is pure and needs to be kept?"  While they went too far and threw out things that should have stayed, that was due to the fact that the Latin church was all they knew; they didn't exactly have an Orthodox priest nearby whom they could ask what needed to be reformed to bring it back in line with the Apostolic faith.  They did the best they could but were operating blind, without any sort of instructions.  Try to get past your own irrational contempt for all things not exactly like your tradition and try to understand why Protestants wound up where they did.  You don't have to approve of what they teach today, but that also doesn't give you license to blame them for not being Orthodox when they were essentially orphaned, thanks to the Latins.  Try sitting down with a Lutheran or a Methodist sometime and try to understand their past; it might not be as fun as bashing them online all the time, but it'll be a lot more enlightening.
 

DerekMK

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Amdetsion said:
I would be surprised...to tears!

That so much correct thought and 'true virtue' could exist with people and they still NOT KNOW the where the true Church is.

That does not make you wonder.."If a person (people) can think, write and live such correct truth, then why do they continue to stand OUTSIDE the One Holy Universal and Apostolic Church of God?
And how, pray tell, were groups of Scandinavian Lutherans supposed to find "the true church" and convert to it?  Most of them simply did the best that they could with what they had.  Does that really justify your rage at Protestantism?   

 

Amdetsion

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Νεκτάριος said:
And how, pray tell, were groups of Scandinavian Lutherans supposed to find "the true church" and convert to it?  Most of them simply did the best that they could with what they had.  Does that really justify your rage at Protestantism?   
I guess I have I have to consider that "they" did the best "they" could do. Until then I do not see the point since to me the Church is One Holy Universal and Apostolic. Indivisable. This will not change for any reason. Only thing that changes is man due to his weakness; thus protestantism.

So If they did the best they could do it appears that something was not right even with their best efforts.

I have no rage.

You mistake my extremely conservative protection of Orthodoxy as "rage" toward those outside the Church.

 

Amdetsion

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Veniamin said:
::)

Do you know anything about Protestants other than that you hate them?

The reformers were reacting to excesses in the Latin church, excesses that we Orthodox would have found repulsive, as well.  They didn't approach their reforms with an attitude of "hmm...what do I not like and want to get rid of?" but one of "hmm....what here is a foreign addition to the church and what is pure and needs to be kept?"  While they went too far and threw out things that should have stayed, that was due to the fact that the Latin church was all they knew; they didn't exactly have an Orthodox priest nearby whom they could ask what needed to be reformed to bring it back in line with the Apostolic faith.  They did the best they could but were operating blind, without any sort of instructions.  Try to get past your own irrational contempt for all things not exactly like your tradition and try to understand why Protestants wound up where they did.  You don't have to approve of what they teach today, but that also doesn't give you license to blame them for not being Orthodox when they were essentially orphaned, thanks to the Latins.  Try sitting down with a Lutheran or a Methodist sometime and try to understand their past; it might not be as fun as bashing them online all the time, but it'll be a lot more enlightening.
I should not have to defend myself for dis-approving of protestantism within an orthodox setting.

Luthers actions were foolish. He actually beleived that he could "reform" what he had NO power over then or now. We see today that the only thing he accomplished was division and confusion.

He might have had some chance if he would have employed peaceful and Christ-like patience and humility as the stregnth of his actions. This would in my opinion may have made an example of the Latin hierachy as impudent even insolent by contrast and in effect 'championed the cause'.

But what did he do? He nails a blistering charge against the church on the parish door and He crashes a Holy Mass and slams down some awful edict regarding the same. This action by him and his cohorts were arrogant, blasphemous, angry, thoughlessness. They were like mobster monks as far as I can tell. It does not matter how right he was these are not the actions of a true man of God. Its not even justifiable actions for any person who are truely following Christ....a 'Christian'.

This is the same "holy"-aggressive -hostillity we find with the crusader cult of the previous age.

The crusader cult were suppossedly set to rout the Islamic spread and retake the holy land. The Lutheran or protestant movement was to rout out the "wickedness" from the 'church' and re-establish the churches former glory and truth.

Two different periods, two different problems......but the same manner of approach...'A hostile aggression fused to a holier-than-thou mentallity'.

Thus to me protestantism during Luther and the crusader cult are kissing "cousins".

Of course in the end both failed to produce anything meaningful for mankind and his peace with himself and his God.

I feel sorry for the people who suffered at the hands of the Latin church in the past which caused the strife. I feel sadder that Luther was the hope they depended on.

Yes the case they had to handle was extremely bad. The condition of the church and faithful was deplorable at lease from what I have read and what was depicted in the major motion picture 'Luther'. I agree that the situation was way out of line and needed serious realignment.

Luther and his actions were not the answer.

Seems to me anyone can be rowdy; this takes no special talent.





 

Ebor

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I was able to find the "Crusades" DVDs on Netflix and have watched them.  The host is Terry Jones, one of the Monty Python members.  It is done in a rather light style with some good effects, some re-inactments and quotes from various scholars such as Sir Stephen Runciman.  Mr. Jones does some walking down roads in Turkey in the clothing and armor and arms of the First Crusade.  However, there is much more nuance and material covered then just what Deacon Amde wrote of. It also has some of the informations that I provided to correct historical mistakes for example, and some of the scholars talking about how the crusades happened.  The Muslims were not portrayed only as peaceful and mild either.  The four disk set has some entertainment value, some historical information, but by no means is a thorough covering and to my ear the script did have a bit of bias against Christianity, some of it perhaps being for humourous effect. 

So if any would wish to see it as a cited source on their own, it is available on Netflix.

Ebor
 

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Ebor said:
I was able to find the "Crusades" DVDs on Netflix and have watched them.  The host is Terry Jones, one of the Monty Python members.  It is done in a rather light style with some good effects, some re-inactments and quotes from various scholars such as Sir Stephen Runciman.  Mr. Jones does some walking down roads in Turkey in the clothing and armor and arms of the First Crusade.  However, there is much more nuance and material covered then just what Deacon Amde wrote of. It also has some of the informations that I provided to correct historical mistakes for example, and some of the scholars talking about how the crusades happened.  The Muslims were not portrayed only as peaceful and mild either.  The four disk set has some entertainment value, some historical information, but by no means is a thorough covering and to my ear the script did have a bit of bias against Christianity, some of it perhaps being for humourous effect. 

So if any would wish to see it as a cited source on their own, it is available on Netflix.

Ebor
This is a series I saw with my granddaughter as part of a study we did on the Crusades. IMO, in spite of the bias against Christianity, it's an excellent series, with all the "tongue in cheek" that you would expect from a member of the Monty Python brigade. The light-hearted manner was nonetheless thought-provoking. Viewing the actions/motives of past Christians as if from the other side might sometimes rankle as a bit unfair, but isn't altogether unhelpful IMO. Probably we need to regurgitate our errors more often, rather than defending them (not that I'm suggesting you are, Ebor) - in the hope (probably forelorn) that we don't continue to make them in the future.
 

Ebor

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Riddikulus said:
This is a series I saw with my granddaughter as part of a study we did on the Crusades. IMO, in spite of the bias against Christianity, it's an excellent series, with all the "tongue in cheek" that you would expect from a member of the Monty Python brigade. The light-hearted manner was nonetheless thought-provoking. Viewing the actions/motives of past Christians as if from the other side might sometimes rankle as a bit unfair, but isn't altogether unhelpful IMO. Probably we need to regurgitate our errors more often, rather than defending them (not that I'm suggesting you are, Ebor) - in the hope (probably forelorn) that we don't continue to make them in the future.
Oh, this series was not 'unhelpful', I assure you.  And as I've written I care about Real History and the Truth of it.  That It contained much more information then the OP's assertions,though, is one of my points, and it did not describe all Crusaders as 'cannibals' or illiterate for instance.  It also contained information such as what I had posted to correct historical errors in the OP, for example.  It was not a case of "West/Crusaders-all brutish and Evil vs East/Muslims- all reasonable and peaceful" and it did cover more then just the First Crusade.  I would show it to my children with some further information and making sure that they understood the 'tongue-in-cheek' humour.  :)  It's a good possible start, but not the final word on the subject, as it were.

And as a side note, speaking as one who has worn chain-mail shirts long ago, Terry Jones would have found it a bit more tolerable if he'd had a belt and then let that hold some of the weight rather then having it all hang on his shoulders.  ;D 

Ebor
 

Riddikulus

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Ebor said:
And as a side note, speaking as one who has worn chain-mail shirts long ago, Terry Jones would have found it a bit more tolerable if he'd had a belt and then let that hold some of the weight rather then having it all hang on his shoulders.  ;D 

Ebor
Yes, I seem to remember granddaughter mentioning that. She is into chain-mail with her medieval re-enactment stuff. Lots of fun being a wannabe Crusader - as long as it's confined to Sunday afternoons!  ;D
 

Ebor

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Riddikulus said:
Yes, I seem to remember granddaughter mentioning that. She is into chain-mail with her medieval re-enactment stuff. Lots of fun being a wannabe Crusader - as long as it's confined to Sunday afternoons!  ;D
:)  Ah, another re-creationist.  But there's much more to it the "wannabe Crusader"....I don't recall anyone with that for a persona.  One group I was in was iirc between 500 and about 1600 AD and it wasn't just European.  Another was more focused on the earlier Anglo-Saxon/Norse.

Ebor
 
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