The future for Muslims and Christians in the west

Poppy

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Peace and blessings

Do you think that Muslims and Christians will ever get along in terms of jointly standing together on some religious/moral issues? I'm thinking more of in the west where the alliance could be useful in terms of local councils, govt. etc... or do you think there is too much history and animosity between the two groups of people?

 

Minnesotan

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Mor Ephrem said:
Maybe when the JPF and the PFJ become real terror groups, join forces, and begin to attack Christians and Muslims indiscriminately.
If secularists get too full of themselves and start trying to bully all religion out of existence, that might do the trick. In some places this might already be happening. A lot of the same people who say Islam is a threat to "modern Western values (read: secular ones)" view Christianity the same way, and once Christianity no longer has a majority of adherents in the US or other Western countries, it could well be that both Christians and Muslims end up in the same boat.

I think it's telling that Vladimir Putin's Russia is fairly pro-Muslim (not pro-Islamist, but they make a big deal about supporting alliances with friendly, "moderate" Muslims and Muslim countries). That could end up being the case among Christians in the West before long too.
 

Mor Ephrem

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Minnesotan said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Maybe when the JPF and the PFJ become real terror groups, join forces, and begin to attack Christians and Muslims indiscriminately.
If secularists get too full of themselves and start trying to bully all religion out of existence, that might do the trick. In some places this might already be happening. A lot of the same people who say Islam is a threat to "modern Western values (read: secular ones)" view Christianity the same way, and once Christianity no longer has a majority of adherents in the US or other Western countries, it could well be that both Christians and Muslims end up in the same boat.

I think it's telling that Vladimir Putin's Russia is fairly pro-Muslim (not pro-Islamist, but they make a big deal about supporting alliances with friendly, "moderate" Muslims and Muslim countries). That could end up being the case among Christians in the West before long too.
This might help...

Warning: language
 

Poppy

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Minnesotan said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Maybe when the JPF and the PFJ become real terror groups, join forces, and begin to attack Christians and Muslims indiscriminately.
If secularists get too full of themselves and start trying to bully all religion out of existence, that might do the trick. In some places this might already be happening. A lot of the same people who say Islam is a threat to "modern Western values (read: secular ones)" view Christianity the same way, and once Christianity no longer has a majority of adherents in the US or other Western countries, it could well be that both Christians and Muslims end up in the same boat.

I think it's telling that Vladimir Putin's Russia is fairly pro-Muslim (not pro-Islamist, but they make a big deal about supporting alliances with friendly, "moderate" Muslims and Muslim countries). That could end up being the case among Christians in the West before long too.
That is happening now here but not in the way I had hoped. There is a definite split between modern/moderate Muslims and those more practicing which often get called fundamentalists or even radicals. The local media call upon all the moderate Muslims to be puppets speak out when something comes up in the news that seems bad.

 

WPM

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I haven't seen any of those people (Muslims or Christians) ... (Not your photos on the Internet) ...
 

LenInSebastopol

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I don't think Muslims believe in abortion or sex outside of marriage or same gender sex.
Is that about it?

At this point in time, there will only be groups of men processing their own versions of stupidity, thus obviating common ground.
 

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WPM said:
I haven't seen any of those people (Muslims or Christians) ... (Not your photos on the Internet) ...
You haven't met any other Christians?

Can you go for a walk, take a bike ride? Maybe you can meet someone that way.
 

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LenInSebastopol said:
I don't think Muslims believe in abortion or sex outside of marriage or same gender sex.
Is that about it?

At this point in time, there will only be groups of men processing their own versions of stupidity, thus obviating common ground.
Well, there's this, although one could argue it's not representative of "real" Islam.

And, ISIL practices ritualized rape and sexual slavery, which is definitely "sex outside of marriage".
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Maybe when the JPF and the PFJ become real terror groups, join forces, and begin to attack Christians and Muslims indiscriminately.
What about the Popular People's Front of Judea and the Coalition to Free Galilee?
 
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Minnesotan said:
LenInSebastopol said:
I don't think Muslims believe in abortion or sex outside of marriage or same gender sex.
Is that about it?

At this point in time, there will only be groups of men processing their own versions of stupidity, thus obviating common ground.
Well, there's this, although one could argue it's not representative of "real" Islam.

And, ISIL practices ritualized rape and sexual slavery, which is definitely "sex outside of marriage".
you know and the sad thing is a lot of the fighters are a bunch of convicts out of jail doing the raping and sex slavery. I have to find the article but ISIS supposely just executed a Indonesian fighter for giving tainted blood since he has AIDS. Then another article I read of a AIDS crisis within ISIS where they are now screening fighters and those test positive are to be sent on suicide missions. It doned on me many of our sisters in christ along with yazadis, kurds and others captured for sex slavery might be infected now from these loser creeps  :(
 

Poppy

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Minnesotan said:
LenInSebastopol said:
I don't think Muslims believe in abortion or sex outside of marriage or same gender sex.
Is that about it?

At this point in time, there will only be groups of men processing their own versions of stupidity, thus obviating common ground.
Well, there's this, although one could argue it's not representative of "real" Islam.

And, ISIL practices ritualized rape and sexual slavery, which is definitely "sex outside of marriage".
Yeah why don't we just pull out all the extremes and conflate culture and religion as well *shrugs
 

Agabus

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Poppy said:
Peace and blessings

Do you think that Muslims and Christians will ever get along in terms of jointly standing together on some religious/moral issues? I'm thinking more of in the west where the alliance could be useful in terms of local councils, govt. etc... or do you think there is too much history and animosity between the two groups of people?
I dunno.

In this area (the deepest fried part of the southern U.S.), distrust of Islam is way deeper ingrained than just the last 14 years. Some of our most notorious hate crimes of the 1960s were predicated on the idea that the victim was a Muslim out to attack white Christians. With the exception of immigrants who have moved to the area in the last few years, Islam is virtually non-existent outside the black community, and as long as people think of it as a religion tied to race the issue is a non-starter. People can move past one or the other, but not both.

On the flip side, within the local black community I've seen plenty of Muslims and Christians team up around a common good — stopping violence, helping fatherless children, etc.
 

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I think Islam is incompatible with europeean values. Islam is one of the most bigotic and intolerant faiths. They want to make Sharia law in England, France and Sweden. They have made protests in those lands lead by their imams.

And isn't Islam the religion of the ignorants and analfabets?
 

JamesR

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Never in the West, no matter how much the progressives like to imagine that we will. The Crusades simply erected a barrier between the West and Islam that will probably never be broken, no matter how much progress we make. That awkwardness will always be there. The relationship is permanently compromised. The sooner we recognize that, the better. 9/11, the War on Terror, and recent politics have only worsened this as the United States at least is really wary of Islam. The Evangelicals who hate pretty much every other religion except Judaism are particularly anti-Islam. Just look at all the recent Qur'an burnings and other such events.

I can imagine such a union occurring in the Middle East though however. I believe that eventually the younger generation of Muslims will get fed up with all the backwardness of their religion and unite together with the Christian minorities to overthrow the oldster Muslims at the top, kind of like the countercultural thing of the 1960s in America. In which case, I can see the new generation of Muslims either abandoning their religion altogether for secularism or undergoing a serious reformation where Islam will be modernized.
 

Agabus

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JamesR said:
In which case, I can see the new generation of Muslims either abandoning their religion altogether for secularism or undergoing a serious reformation where Islam will be modernized.
Secularism worked out great in Iran.
 
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Agabus said:
JamesR said:
In which case, I can see the new generation of Muslims either abandoning their religion altogether for secularism or undergoing a serious reformation where Islam will be modernized.
Secularism worked out great in Iran.
It did work until the shah was thrown under the bus
 
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JamesR said:
Never in the West, no matter how much the progressives like to imagine that we will. The Crusades simply erected a barrier between the West and Islam that will probably never be broken, no matter how much progress we make. That awkwardness will always be there. The relationship is permanently compromised. The sooner we recognize that, the better. 9/11, the War on Terror, and recent politics have only worsened this as the United States at least is really wary of Islam. The Evangelicals who hate pretty much every other religion except Judaism are particularly anti-Islam. Just look at all the recent Qur'an burnings and other such events.

I can imagine such a union occurring in the Middle East though however. I believe that eventually the younger generation of Muslims will get fed up with all the backwardness of their religion and unite together with the Christian minorities to overthrow the oldster Muslims at the top, kind of like the countercultural thing of the 1960s in America. In which case, I can see the new generation of Muslims either abandoning their religion altogether for secularism or undergoing a serious reformation where Islam will be modernized.
I hope the younger muslims leave but those who remain in Islam(especially the Sunni Sect) thanks to inflammatory satalite tv like al jazera, The Gulf arab monarchies funding of salafi mosques around the globe and the disaterious Arab Spring the consequences will be even more radicalizied muslim youth if they don't leave so I hope your right JamesR
 

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Poppy said:
Peace and blessings

Do you think that Muslims and Christians will ever get along in terms of jointly standing together on some religious/moral issues? I'm thinking more of in the west where the alliance could be useful in terms of local councils, govt. etc... or do you think there is too much history and animosity between the two groups of people?
On all of your questions, the answer is: no.

Because the barriers are just too deep.
 

JamesR

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seekeroftruth777 said:
JamesR said:
Never in the West, no matter how much the progressives like to imagine that we will. The Crusades simply erected a barrier between the West and Islam that will probably never be broken, no matter how much progress we make. That awkwardness will always be there. The relationship is permanently compromised. The sooner we recognize that, the better. 9/11, the War on Terror, and recent politics have only worsened this as the United States at least is really wary of Islam. The Evangelicals who hate pretty much every other religion except Judaism are particularly anti-Islam. Just look at all the recent Qur'an burnings and other such events.

I can imagine such a union occurring in the Middle East though however. I believe that eventually the younger generation of Muslims will get fed up with all the backwardness of their religion and unite together with the Christian minorities to overthrow the oldster Muslims at the top, kind of like the countercultural thing of the 1960s in America. In which case, I can see the new generation of Muslims either abandoning their religion altogether for secularism or undergoing a serious reformation where Islam will be modernized.
I hope the younger muslims leave but those who remain in Islam(especially the Sunni Sect) thanks to inflammatory satalite tv like al jazera, The Gulf arab monarchies funding of salafi mosques around the globe and the disaterious Arab Spring the consequences will be even more radicalizied muslim youth if they don't leave so I hope your right JamesR
I wouldn't worry for two reasons. One, when an ideology reaches fundamentalism, it usually means that said ideology is on the serious decline. It is the last breath of air before drawing so to speak. It means that the ideology no longer has anything to offer the world and therefore is trying to return back to a time when it did. Two, as a rule of thumb, young people always hate the status quo and want to challenge tradition. It happened in the United States in the 1960s and it happened in antiquity with the "corrupted" youths who used to follow Socrates around. It is only a matter of time before it happens in the Islamic world.

The real question is whether or not it will be a good thing. We know that Islam is going to inevitably die out or at least lose its influence like Christianity did/is in the West. The worst case scenario is that it unfolds violently like the Enlightenment, in which case, we could be looking at radical progressivism and anti-theistic secularism filling the void. Hardly any better. Best case scenario is that Islam dies a slow, organic death through economic means as more and more youngsters start to realize the benefits of industrialism, like a couple shopping malls or something. And thus abandon traditional Islam for modern values as they realize that it is no longer profitable.
 

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James, you may be correct, however "history" may swirl into another direction. As secular Europe thrashes the void will be filled by a natural instinct for humans to be "religious" or find a cause greater than themselves. Both religions, up close, can never get along however a 150 year-view will find it differently. When history is viewed at such an arc....well, consider the world 150 to 200 years ago. And due communication & tech, that could be compressed. Islam has a will and The West has lost its vision.
 

DeniseDenise

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Can we go back to pondering the PJF and the JFP?


so much more productive! 
 

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Poppy said:
Peace and blessings

Do you think that Muslims and Christians will ever get along in terms of jointly standing together on some religious/moral issues? I'm thinking more of in the west where the alliance could be useful in terms of local councils, govt. etc... or do you think there is too much history and animosity between the two groups of people?

Didn't they do that already? There are countries who share christian and muslim population, and they get along pretty fine.. You have to keep in mind that not all muslims are the same and not all muslim countries are the same.

We have to be aware of that, and more careful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3NzkAOo3s
 

Charles Martel

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Dracula said:
I think Islam is incompatible with europeean values. Islam is one of the most bigotic and intolerant faiths. They want to make Sharia law in England, France and Sweden. They have made protests in those lands lead by their imams.

And isn't Islam the religion of the ignorants and analfabets?
Islam is completely incompatible with the European values of freedom, liberty and justice. Islam is just about totally antithetical to the Western mindset of questioning authority, civil discourse and the capability of critical thought. It will never take root on the European continent outside of a few backwards and isolated areas which it has a loose foothold at present.

And even if one wants to give historical examples of where Islam did conquer and thrive for a season in some places as Spain (Cordoba) and the Ottomans in the Balkans, the Islamic cultures flourished and made advances because of the European peoples, not in spite of them. And even then, it was only a matter of time before the native Christian Euros banded together and drove the Islamists out of Europe and back to where they came from.

Islamic values are not European values. Not in the least.
 

Charles Martel

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I wouldn't worry for two reasons. One, when an ideology reaches fundamentalism, it usually means that said ideology is on the serious decline.
Then how do you explain  the highly liberal Christianity in Europe which has practically abandoned most of the fundamental tenets of it's faith and is currently dying on the continent? The Church in Europe, especially Western Europe has never been less "fundamental" and it's cathederals are empty and it's adherents are dying out.

Two, as a rule of thumb, young people always hate the status quo and want to challenge tradition
Quite the opposite on more than a few occasions. Iran in 1979 and Communist Poland around the same time for that matter. Also it's mostly the young people now that become radicalized and fight for ISIS and "traditional" Islam. Seems more times than not, it's the young people that are the driving force behind keeping tradition and the values of a culture that the older generation has in effect sold out on.

It happened in the United States in the 1960s and it happened in antiquity with the "corrupted" youths who used to follow Socrates around. It is only a matter of time before it happens in the Islamic world.
I don't see that in happening in the foreseeable future. You are dealing with a totaly different mentality within Islamic cultures who are not "corrupted" so easily and are a very tribal people. they have a keen sense of history and who they are. Especially in the ME. And history never dies in the ME. Your Western fads and seeds of liberalism and materialism  will be short lived within the warring Islamic states in that part of the world.

The real question is whether or not it will be a good thing. We know that Islam is going to inevitably die out or at least lose its influence like Christianity did/is in the Wes
Let me know when that happens. Is not Islam the fastest growing religion on the planet right now? And while secular and "christian" socities are embracing homosexuality and aborting/cotracepting themselves out of existence, Muslims are making babies. lots and lots of them.

. Best case scenario is that Islam dies a slow, organic death through economic means as more and more youngsters start to realize the benefits of industrialism, like a couple shopping malls or something.
Yea, that's what going to do Islam in....."shopping malls". Think again buddy. And while we're at it, from what I've seen looking around, shopping malls even around here aren't  even all the rage they used to be. Nah, the malls will be long gone while more Masjid's will be popping up like daisies all over the place.

And thus abandon traditional Islam for modern values as they realize that it is no longer profitable.
You cannot kill a religion with money. Have you learned nothing from the crucifixion?

 

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JamesR said:
The Crusades simply erected a barrier between the West and Islam that will probably never be broken, no matter how much progress we make. That awkwardness will always be there. The relationship is permanently compromised. The sooner we recognize that, the better. 9/11, the War on Terror, and recent politics have only worsened this as the United States at least is really wary of Islam. The Evangelicals who hate pretty much every other religion except Judaism are particularly anti-Islam. Just look at all the recent Qur'an burnings and other such events.
You do realize that until 19th-century European imperialism, the Muslims had completely forgotten about the Crusades for the most part, right? While it was a big thing for Latins and a terrible thing mostly for Eastern Christians, those wars accomplished nothing but the conquest of the Levant, which was a backwater of the Islamic world then. So when the Muslims won, they quickly forgot about it. It speaks volumes that Muslims in the Middle East to this day celebrate their major triumph over the Mongols nearly 800 years ago, but nothing for their triumph over the crusaders. The only reason they know about them now is because the Europeans after the fall of the Ottoman Empire kept bragging about it as they carved up the Middle East for themselves. In short, everything that the Muslims now know about the Crusades is colored through the lens of 19th-century imperialism and savagery.

How about we start discussing why there is terrorism directed at us? And how about why communities of Christians and Jews that have lived in the Middle East since the time of Christ are now being uprooted en mass. Maybe then this conversation will go somewhere besides down the traditional 9/11-fear syndrome route.
 

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Rohzek said:
How about we start discussing why there is terrorism directed at us? And how about why communities of Christians and Jews that have lived in the Middle East since the time of Christ are now being uprooted en mass. Maybe then this conversation will go somewhere besides down the traditional 9/11-fear syndrome route.
Sounds like a good suggestion, provided 'us' doesn't just mean North America and Europe but takes in non-Muslims in Nigeria, Indonesia and elsewhere as well along with Muslims considered too liberal by the terrorists.
 

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FinnJames said:
Rohzek said:
How about we start discussing why there is terrorism directed at us? And how about why communities of Christians and Jews that have lived in the Middle East since the time of Christ are now being uprooted en mass. Maybe then this conversation will go somewhere besides down the traditional 9/11-fear syndrome route.
Sounds like a good suggestion, provided 'us' doesn't just mean North America and Europe but takes in non-Muslims in Nigeria, Indonesia and elsewhere as well along with Muslims considered too liberal by the terrorists.
Good point.
 

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LenInSebastopol said:
James, you may be correct, however "history" may swirl into another direction. As secular Europe thrashes the void will be filled by a natural instinct for humans to be "religious" or find a cause greater than themselves.
LenInSebastopol and I agree for once? It can't be.

Charles Martel said:
Two, as a rule of thumb, young people always hate the status quo and want to challenge tradition
Quite the opposite on more than a few occasions. Iran in 1979 and Communist Poland around the same time for that matter. Also it's mostly the young people now that become radicalized and fight for ISIS and "traditional" Islam. Seems more times than not, it's the young people that are the driving force behind keeping tradition and the values of a culture that the older generation has in effect sold out on.
It works in cycles, I think.
 
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Cyrillic said:
LenInSebastopol said:
James, you may be correct, however "history" may swirl into another direction. As secular Europe thrashes the void will be filled by a natural instinct for humans to be "religious" or find a cause greater than themselves.
LenInSebastopol and I agree for once? It can't be.
So would any of you gentlemen think that Islam is filling a void in a post-christian west?
 

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seekeroftruth777 said:
Cyrillic said:
LenInSebastopol said:
James, you may be correct, however "history" may swirl into another direction. As secular Europe thrashes the void will be filled by a natural instinct for humans to be "religious" or find a cause greater than themselves.
LenInSebastopol and I agree for once? It can't be.
So would any of you gentlemen think that Islam is filling a void in a post-christian west?
To a certain degree, yes. Its potential for drawing in converts is a bit dampered by the atrocities of the terrorists, though.
 

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Rohzek said:
You do realize that until 19th-century European imperialism, the Muslims had completely forgotten about the Crusades for the most part, right? While it was a big thing for Latins and a terrible thing mostly for Eastern Christians, those wars accomplished nothing but the conquest of the Levant, which was a backwater of the Islamic world then. So when the Muslims won, they quickly forgot about it. It speaks volumes that Muslims in the Middle East to this day celebrate their major triumph over the Mongols nearly 800 years ago, but nothing for their triumph over the crusaders. The only reason they know about them now is because the Europeans after the fall of the Ottoman Empire kept bragging about it as they carved up the Middle East for themselves. In short, everything that the Muslims now know about the Crusades is colored through the lens of 19th-century imperialism and savagery.
Oh like the sons of Ishmael were that innocent  ::) Why don't we talk about the years of unbridled Islamic imperialism that led to the Crusades? The imperialism that inevitably made its way to the gates of Vienna before definitively being pushed back to the dump from where it came? The Islamic world was no greater than its European counterpart and in many ways was actually worse. Why don't we talk about the thousands of prepubescent girls ripped from their homes and sent to serve men old enough to be their grandfathers? Or the 80 million who died on the Indian subcontinent alone thanks to years of Islamic conquest? Get off your Enlightenment richarddawkins.net high-horse and stop trying to portray the sons of Ishmael as these innocent, merely misunderstood noble savages. Everything they suffered from Europe they had coming to them after years of making their own incursions into Europe. I feel no sympathy for the Middle East, the sons of Ishmael, or whatever they are suffering right now.

How about we start discussing why there is terrorism directed at us? And how about why communities of Christians and Jews that have lived in the Middle East since the time of Christ are now being uprooted en mass. Maybe then this conversation will go somewhere besides down the traditional 9/11-fear syndrome route.
You mean the communities of Christians and Jews that lived as second-class citizens at best and are now a statistically insignificant minority because the sons of Ishmael killed, raped, and/or forcibly converted most of them?
 

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seekeroftruth777 said:
Cyrillic said:
LenInSebastopol said:
James, you may be correct, however "history" may swirl into another direction. As secular Europe thrashes the void will be filled by a natural instinct for humans to be "religious" or find a cause greater than themselves.
LenInSebastopol and I agree for once? It can't be.
So would any of you gentlemen think that Islam is filling a void in a post-christian west?
To an extent. For dissatisfied feminist White women who think they're exotic because they belly dance and/or smoke hookah, it fills the void like pseudo-Hinduism did for New Agers in the 1960s. I think most Western men however consider all religion to be bullpoop.
 

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JamesR said:
Rohzek said:
You do realize that until 19th-century European imperialism, the Muslims had completely forgotten about the Crusades for the most part, right? While it was a big thing for Latins and a terrible thing mostly for Eastern Christians, those wars accomplished nothing but the conquest of the Levant, which was a backwater of the Islamic world then. So when the Muslims won, they quickly forgot about it. It speaks volumes that Muslims in the Middle East to this day celebrate their major triumph over the Mongols nearly 800 years ago, but nothing for their triumph over the crusaders. The only reason they know about them now is because the Europeans after the fall of the Ottoman Empire kept bragging about it as they carved up the Middle East for themselves. In short, everything that the Muslims now know about the Crusades is colored through the lens of 19th-century imperialism and savagery.


Oh like the sons of Ishmael were that innocent  ::) Why don't we talk about the years of unbridled Islamic imperialism that led to the Crusades? The imperialism that inevitably made its way to the gates of Vienna before definitively being pushed back to the dump from where it came? The Islamic world was no greater than its European counterpart and in many ways was actually worse. Why don't we talk about the thousands of prepubescent girls ripped from their homes and sent to serve men old enough to be their grandfathers? Or the 80 million who died on the Indian subcontinent alone thanks to years of Islamic conquest? Get off your Enlightenment richarddawkins.net high-horse and stop trying to portray the sons of Ishmael as these innocent, merely misunderstood noble savages. Everything they suffered from Europe they had coming to them after years of making their own incursions into Europe. I feel no sympathy for the Middle East, the sons of Ishmael, or whatever they are suffering right now.

How about we start discussing why there is terrorism directed at us? And how about why communities of Christians and Jews that have lived in the Middle East since the time of Christ are now being uprooted en mass. Maybe then this conversation will go somewhere besides down the traditional 9/11-fear syndrome route.
You mean the communities of Christians and Jews that lived as second-class citizens at best and are now a statistically insignificant minority because the sons of Ishmael killed, raped, and/or forcibly converted most of them?

So far as I can tell, Rohz is actually doing that messy thing called history....you are doing political theory/ ultra moralisms / theology and trying to fit history and culture into a Procrustean Bed.  If you read primary sources from the time, or heck even talk to an average Yosef-schmo from Iraq, Lebanon, or wherever, you'll get roughly the perspective Rhoez is giving.

To blow your mind even more, Muslims like Ibn Khaldun are celebrated by Christains as heroes, and Muslims visit Christian Churchs on some Holy days (St. George is a hero, icons are carried by some Muslim women), and Christians celebrate some festivals with Muslims.
 
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