the magical thinking of papal infallibility no longer makes any sense to me

Apotheoun

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SolEX01 said:
I was making a friendly suggestion because he is a cathecumen and he has expressed strong feelings for both Orthodoxy and Catholicism throughout his posting history here. . . .
I see. I was looking at this thread, and taking into account the posts he has made since his conversion to Orthodoxy, but if I had also taken into account his posts while he was a Catholic, I suppose - like you - I would be confused on the matter. But why take into account his posts from his time as a Catholic? In this thread I have not seen Choy say that he wants to be Catholic again; instead, all I have seen him do is apply the knowledge (30 some years worth) he has about the Catholic Church. Certainly there is nothing wrong with doing that is there (i.e. , applying the knowledge he possesses)? I used to be a High Church Anglican, and when I became Catholic I did not lose all the knowledge and experience I had of being a member of that ecclesial body.
 

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Michał Kalina said:
Maria said:
Since he is an Orthodox catechumen, he is part of us.
"Us"? He attends an OCA parish, you are a true-genuine-patristic-something type.

Oh, I forgot. You also can't decide whether you left your previous Church or not.
Hmmm ... I wasn't aware of that. (I mean, I was aware that Maria is used to be Catholic, but not that she has doubts about whether she left.)

I guess that throws a new light on her recent proclamation that the Maronite Patriarch shouldn't be a cardinal.
 

Maria

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Peter J said:
Michał Kalina said:
Maria said:
Since he is an Orthodox catechumen, he is part of us.
"Us"? He attends an OCA parish, you are a true-genuine-patristic-something type.

Oh, I forgot. You also can't decide whether you left your previous Church or not.
Hmmm ... I wasn't aware of that. (I mean, I was aware that Maria is used to be Catholic, but not that she has doubts about whether she left.)

I guess that throws a new light on her recent proclamation that the Maronite Patriarch shouldn't be a cardinal.
I was a Melkite, then I was chrismated into World Orthodoxy.
Now I am a member of the Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece under Kallinikos.
 

SolEX01

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Apotheoun said:
SolEX01 said:
I was making a friendly suggestion because he is a cathecumen and he has expressed strong feelings for both Orthodoxy and Catholicism throughout his posting history here. . . .
I see. I was looking at this thread, and taking into account the posts he has made since his conversion to Orthodoxy,
He hasn't converted.  I don't see being a cathecumen as equaling a full conversion.

Apotheoun said:
but if I had also taken into account his posts while he was a Catholic I - like you - would be confused on the matter. But why take into account his posts from his time as a Catholic? In this thread I have not seen Choy say that he wants to be Catholic again; instead, all I have seen him do is apply the knowledge (30 some years worth) he has about the Catholic Church. Certainly there is nothing wrong with doing that is there (i.e. , applying the knowledge he possesses)? I used to be a High Church Anglican, and when I became Catholic I did not lose all the knowledge and experience I had of being a member of that ecclesial body.
This forum has a history of cathecumens who become Orthodox, hyperdox and subsequently burn out.  Others and myself are responding to that trend.  I really hope Choy becomes and remains Orthodox.   :)
 

Apotheoun

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Peter J said:
I guess that throws a new light on her recent proclamation that the Maronite Patriarch shouldn't be a cardinal.
What kind of light? Anybody who wants to (Catholic or non-Catholic, Roman or Eastern) can have an opinion on whether or not Eastern Catholic Patriarchs should be cardinals.
 

Apotheoun

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SolEX01 said:
This forum has a history of cathecumens who become Orthodox, hyperdox and subsequently burn out.  Others and myself are responding to that trend.  I really hope Choy becomes and remains Orthodox.   :)
Well, you can't really judge Choy by the histories of others. He is an individual. Whether he completes his conversion or not will be determined by his own choices and God's, and not by the history of what has happened on this forum. God bless.
 

Maria

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Apotheoun said:
SolEX01 said:
This forum has a history of cathecumens who become Orthodox, hyperdox and subsequently burn out.  Others and myself are responding to that trend.  I really hope Choy becomes and remains Orthodox.   :)
Well, you can't really judge Choy by the histories of others. He is an individual. Whether he completes his conversion or not will be determined by his own choices and God's, and not by the history of what has happened on this forum. God bless.
Where is the Christian love?

This thread has devolved into a free for all.
 

Apotheoun

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I must say that I am surprised by the degree of rudeness that has been directed towards Choy by some posters in this thread. He is castigated by some people for taking it upon himself to "speak for the Orthodox" and yet some of the very same posters who scold him take it upon themselves to speak for the Orthodox in other threads. It is sad to witness. Thankfully I know several Orthodox Christians in real life (not in the pseudo-reality of the internet) and they do not exhibit this rude and hypocritical attitude, and I praise God for that.
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
sheenj said:
Michał Kalina said:
choy said:
It is not wild, its fact.  You refuse to submit yourselves to the supreme infallible Roman Pontiff, therefore you are not Catholic. You have no authority to declare the Pope as a heretic because the Popes all the way from the 1100s have declared themselves to be above judgement of any mortal.  Only God can judge them.  Of course we Orthodox do not believe that, but we also do not claim to be Roman Catholics, so no problems there.  As a Roman Catholic, you must believe that, and if you believe that then you have to accept the current Pope.  To declare the Pope heretic is to deny a 900 year old teaching of the Roman Catholic Church (you only reject Vatican II so you cannot reject this teaching) that the Pope is above judgement by any mere human being.  And if you deny that teaching, you are not Roman Catholic.
choy said:
For those of us who has 33 years of Roman Catholic catechism in our heads, we just don't want to put such information to waste  ;D
I'm trying to fnd some consistency in your posts. But I fail.

First you, using the phrase "we Orthodox" (could you remind me when were you received into the Church? I missed that) infallibly proclaim what "we Orthodox" believe or not believe. Then you defend the Roman Catholic Church from some other Roman Catholics who do not agree with it.

Can you decide what are you? Catholic? Orthodox? Orthodox catechuman? What do you believe?
I for one think Choy has consistently put forth these views not as his own, but as what he has been taught in the Orthodox and Catholic Catechism classes respectively.
I don't think that's what Mike is addressing. If choy is really an Orthodox catechumen as he says he is, then why does he continue to insert himself into arguments internal to the Roman Catholic Church that he left? Such internecine RC squabbles should no longer be his concern, since he left them behind.
I still do this occasionally (eg "insert myself into arguments internal to the RCC") on here.  Why?  Because I still have family who are RC.  My wife is still (nominally) RC.  If I see someone posting some really confused or outright wrong statements re: RC belief, I feel compelled to correct them, not because I think the beliefs themselves are true, but because one should accept or reject a teaching based on what the teaching actually is.  I don't do it as often as I used to because people like Papist, J Michael, and others are usually quick to the punch and my input is totally unnecessary.  When I do, I try to do it as clinically as possible, so to speak.

Telling choy to just forget what he knows is ridiculous and counter-productive to this strengths as a catechumen.  Should he do it all the time?  Probably not and I would counsel him, as an ex-RC myself, to pick his battles wisely.  
 

Maria

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Schultz said:
PeterTheAleut said:
sheenj said:
Michał Kalina said:
choy said:
It is not wild, its fact.  You refuse to submit yourselves to the supreme infallible Roman Pontiff, therefore you are not Catholic. You have no authority to declare the Pope as a heretic because the Popes all the way from the 1100s have declared themselves to be above judgement of any mortal.  Only God can judge them.  Of course we Orthodox do not believe that, but we also do not claim to be Roman Catholics, so no problems there.  As a Roman Catholic, you must believe that, and if you believe that then you have to accept the current Pope.  To declare the Pope heretic is to deny a 900 year old teaching of the Roman Catholic Church (you only reject Vatican II so you cannot reject this teaching) that the Pope is above judgement by any mere human being.  And if you deny that teaching, you are not Roman Catholic.
choy said:
For those of us who has 33 years of Roman Catholic catechism in our heads, we just don't want to put such information to waste  ;D
I'm trying to fnd some consistency in your posts. But I fail.

First you, using the phrase "we Orthodox" (could you remind me when were you received into the Church? I missed that) infallibly proclaim what "we Orthodox" believe or not believe. Then you defend the Roman Catholic Church from some other Roman Catholics who do not agree with it.

Can you decide what are you? Catholic? Orthodox? Orthodox catechuman? What do you believe?
I for one think Choy has consistently put forth these views not as his own, but as what he has been taught in the Orthodox and Catholic Catechism classes respectively.
I don't think that's what Mike is addressing. If choy is really an Orthodox catechumen as he says he is, then why does he continue to insert himself into arguments internal to the Roman Catholic Church that he left? Such internecine RC squabbles should no longer be his concern, since he left them behind.
I still do this occasionally (eg "insert myself into arguments internal to the RCC") on here.  Why?  Because I still have family who are RC.  My wife is still (nominally) RC.  If I see someone posting some really confused or outright wrong statements re: RC belief, I feel compelled to correct them, not because I think the beliefs themselves are true, but because one should accept or reject a teaching based on what the teaching actually is.  I don't do it as often as I used to because people like Papist, J Michael, and others are usually quick to the punch and my input is totally unnecessary.  When I do, I try to do it as clinically as possible, so to speak.

Telling choy to just forget what he knows is ridiculous and counter-productive to this strengths as a catechumen.  Should he do it all the time?  Probably not and I would counsel him, as an ex-RC myself, to pick his battles wisely.  
A voice of reason! I wish you were still a mod here.
 

orthonorm

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Maria said:
Peter J said:
Michał Kalina said:
Maria said:
Since he is an Orthodox catechumen, he is part of us.
"Us"? He attends an OCA parish, you are a true-genuine-patristic-something type.

Oh, I forgot. You also can't decide whether you left your previous Church or not.
Hmmm ... I wasn't aware of that. (I mean, I was aware that Maria is used to be Catholic, but not that she has doubts about whether she left.)

I guess that throws a new light on her recent proclamation that the Maronite Patriarch shouldn't be a cardinal.
I was a Melkite, then I was chrismated into World Orthodoxy.
Now I am a member of the Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece under Kallinikos.
Whenever anything has to tell you it's first, genuine, etc., especially in its brand name, take the odds and bet against that claim.
 

Achronos

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orthonorm said:
Maria said:
Peter J said:
Michał Kalina said:
Maria said:
Since he is an Orthodox catechumen, he is part of us.
"Us"? He attends an OCA parish, you are a true-genuine-patristic-something type.

Oh, I forgot. You also can't decide whether you left your previous Church or not.
Hmmm ... I wasn't aware of that. (I mean, I was aware that Maria is used to be Catholic, but not that she has doubts about whether she left.)

I guess that throws a new light on her recent proclamation that the Maronite Patriarch shouldn't be a cardinal.
I was a Melkite, then I was chrismated into World Orthodoxy.
Now I am a member of the Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece under Kallinikos.
Whenever anything has to tell you it's first, genuine, etc., especially in its brand name, take the odds and bet against that claim.
Well that works too.

Now don't get me started on what I actually think about that group.
 

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Maria said:
Schultz said:
PeterTheAleut said:
sheenj said:
Michał Kalina said:
choy said:
It is not wild, its fact.  You refuse to submit yourselves to the supreme infallible Roman Pontiff, therefore you are not Catholic. You have no authority to declare the Pope as a heretic because the Popes all the way from the 1100s have declared themselves to be above judgement of any mortal.  Only God can judge them.  Of course we Orthodox do not believe that, but we also do not claim to be Roman Catholics, so no problems there.  As a Roman Catholic, you must believe that, and if you believe that then you have to accept the current Pope.  To declare the Pope heretic is to deny a 900 year old teaching of the Roman Catholic Church (you only reject Vatican II so you cannot reject this teaching) that the Pope is above judgement by any mere human being.  And if you deny that teaching, you are not Roman Catholic.
choy said:
For those of us who has 33 years of Roman Catholic catechism in our heads, we just don't want to put such information to waste  ;D
I'm trying to fnd some consistency in your posts. But I fail.

First you, using the phrase "we Orthodox" (could you remind me when were you received into the Church? I missed that) infallibly proclaim what "we Orthodox" believe or not believe. Then you defend the Roman Catholic Church from some other Roman Catholics who do not agree with it.

Can you decide what are you? Catholic? Orthodox? Orthodox catechuman? What do you believe?
I for one think Choy has consistently put forth these views not as his own, but as what he has been taught in the Orthodox and Catholic Catechism classes respectively.
I don't think that's what Mike is addressing. If choy is really an Orthodox catechumen as he says he is, then why does he continue to insert himself into arguments internal to the Roman Catholic Church that he left? Such internecine RC squabbles should no longer be his concern, since he left them behind.
I still do this occasionally (eg "insert myself into arguments internal to the RCC") on here.  Why?  Because I still have family who are RC.  My wife is still (nominally) RC.  If I see someone posting some really confused or outright wrong statements re: RC belief, I feel compelled to correct them, not because I think the beliefs themselves are true, but because one should accept or reject a teaching based on what the teaching actually is.  I don't do it as often as I used to because people like Papist, J Michael, and others are usually quick to the punch and my input is totally unnecessary.  When I do, I try to do it as clinically as possible, so to speak.

Telling choy to just forget what he knows is ridiculous and counter-productive to this strengths as a catechumen.  Should he do it all the time?  Probably not and I would counsel him, as an ex-RC myself, to pick his battles wisely.  
A voice of reason! I wish you were still a mod here.
I agree. Thanks for the excellent post Schultz.
 

Schultz

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orthonorm said:
Maria said:
Peter J said:
Michał Kalina said:
Maria said:
Since he is an Orthodox catechumen, he is part of us.
"Us"? He attends an OCA parish, you are a true-genuine-patristic-something type.

Oh, I forgot. You also can't decide whether you left your previous Church or not.
Hmmm ... I wasn't aware of that. (I mean, I was aware that Maria is used to be Catholic, but not that she has doubts about whether she left.)

I guess that throws a new light on her recent proclamation that the Maronite Patriarch shouldn't be a cardinal.
I was a Melkite, then I was chrismated into World Orthodoxy.
Now I am a member of the Genuine Orthodox Church of Greece under Kallinikos.
Whenever anything has to tell you it's first, genuine, etc., especially in its brand name, take the odds and bet against that claim.
The exception is the name of my new scooter, produced the Genuine Scooter Company.  A Genuine Stella actually is a genuine Stella. ;)
 

LizaSymonenko

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Why is everyone so concerned with Choy, and asking him to "prove" his Faith?

Has anyone asked you to prove yours?


Besides, why are "known" Orthodox so concerned about what he says about Roman Catholicism?  Seriously, folks....relax a bit.  If he claimed to be Orthodox and was preaching anti-Orthodox dogma in the Faith Issues Forum, then you can question his Orthodox knowledge, but, as that's not the case, I suggest everyone back down a bit.


I've had a number of jobs in my life.  I've been trained thoroughly for each one.  As it is, "jobs" don't last forever anymore, and I find myself having to learn something new almost every few years.  That doesn't mean I have forgotten what I did before....and if a topic concerning my previous job came up in a conversation, I would feel qualified to add my two cents.  This is what's going on with Choy.  He knows about the RC, and has every right to discuss it.

Isn't this supposed to be a discussion?  Not everyone will always agree....but, we should hear everyone out.  

 

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Apotheoun said:
I must say that I am surprised by the degree of rudeness that has been directed towards Choy by some posters in this thread. He is castigated by some people for taking it upon himself to "speak for the Orthodox" and yet some of the very same posters who scold him take it upon themselves to speak for the Orthodox in other threads. It is sad to witness. Thankfully I know several Orthodox Christians in real life (not in the pseudo-reality of the internet) and they do not exhibit this rude and hypocritical attitude, and I praise God for that.
If I were to base my conversion to Orthodoxy based on the general attitude on this forum (and of course there are a bunch of people who are wonderful and have been great examples of what an Orthodox Christian is based on what they show on this forum), I would not have converted.  Thankfully the people in my parish never treated me in such a way, even the time I wasn't sure I was converting or not.  And my priest especially, always showed me love and care and never pressured me to be anything I am not or do something I do not want to do.
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
choy said:
PeterTheAleut said:
I don't think that's what Mike is addressing. If choy is really an Orthodox catechumen as he says he is, then why does he continue to insert himself into arguments internal to the Roman Catholic Church that he left? Such internecine RC squabbles should no longer be his concern, since he left them behind.
Should I pretend that I do not know what makes a Roman Catholic or not per Roman Catholic teaching?
No, just stop pretending that you know. What does it matter to you what makes a Roman Catholic or not per Roman Catholic teaching, anyway? You left all that behind, remember?
The thing is, I do know.

And what does it matter to me?  I want people to be honest about it.  When I converted to Orthodoxy my priest was honest to me about what is Orthodox and what is not, including squashing any notion I have of me being "Orthodox in communion with Rome" being Eastern Catholic.  Being honest about one's situation is important.  Actually, being honest about everything is important.
 

Maria

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choy said:
PeterTheAleut said:
choy said:
PeterTheAleut said:
I don't think that's what Mike is addressing. If choy is really an Orthodox catechumen as he says he is, then why does he continue to insert himself into arguments internal to the Roman Catholic Church that he left? Such internecine RC squabbles should no longer be his concern, since he left them behind.
Should I pretend that I do not know what makes a Roman Catholic or not per Roman Catholic teaching?
No, just stop pretending that you know. What does it matter to you what makes a Roman Catholic or not per Roman Catholic teaching, anyway? You left all that behind, remember?
The thing is, I do know.
Exactly, how can one stop pretending when they are not pretending?
 

orthonorm

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