the magical thinking of papal infallibility no longer makes any sense to me

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PeterTheAleut said:
Why are we Orthodox arguing on an Orthodox discussion board that some sedevacantist is not Roman Catholic? Does it even matter to us what side someone takes in what is essentially a squabble internal to the Roman Catholic Church? If Isa is to be believed, Roman Catholics, to include the sedevacantists, are neither Roman nor Catholic, and they're certainly not Orthodox.

We Orthodox are not parties to the internal squabbles Roman Catholics might have among themselves, so let's let them fight out their own squabbles (where and how appropriate on this forum) without us stepping in to take one side or the other.
For those of us who has 33 years of Roman Catholic catechism in our heads, we just don't want to put such information to waste  ;D
 

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sedevacantist said:
Cyrillic said:
sedevacantist said:
The False Apparitions at Bayside, NY
The False Apparitions at Medjugorje
Protip: the other apparitions are all false too.
sorry Fatima is not false, I suggest you look into the subject in depth
Whether Fatima is true or not, it's irrelevant to your position since private revelation is always optional, a point I'm presuming you affirm.  If not, let us know so we can move on as you're then openly espousing heresy.

On a different topic, I still haven't had a sedevacantist explain the authority issue well to me.  As in, how do you have the authority, as laymen, to declare a Pope's election invalid?

You can make a case that John XXIII is an antipope.  I've heard others claim Paul VI was the first antipope, as well as Pius XII and as far back as Pope Leo XIII (reign ended 1903).  Google for lots of examples of all of these; it's the slippery slope of layman judging those in ecclesial authority. 

So how do you manage to make this judgment without falling into the same essential trap as Lutheranism?
 

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orthros said:
... how do you have the authority, as laymen, to declare a Pope's election invalid?
Good question for sedevacantist.
Here's another. Out of 1.2 billion Catholics, how many say that Francis is not the Pope?
And another: Among all Catholic bishops today, can you give me one who is not a heretic?
 

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stanley123 said:
Here's another. Out of 1.2 billion Catholics, how many say that Francis is not the Pope?
Careful here, the Roman Catholic Church isn't a democracy.  If you're going by this, you'll lose the contraceptive and divorce debate.
 

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choy said:
stanley123 said:
Here's another. Out of 1.2 billion Catholics, how many say that Francis is not the Pope?
Careful here, the Roman Catholic Church isn't a democracy.  If you're going by this, you'll love the contraceptive and divorce debate.
Exactly. Go to any Catholic board, and you will see that the infallibility stamp on the Papacy has not stopped debate on abortion, contraceptive, and women as priests.
 

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Maria said:
choy said:
stanley123 said:
Here's another. Out of 1.2 billion Catholics, how many say that Francis is not the Pope?
Careful here, the Roman Catholic Church isn't a democracy.  If you're going by this, you'll love the contraceptive and divorce debate.
Exactly. Go to any Catholic board, and you will see that the infallibility stamp on the Papacy has not stopped debate on abortion, contraceptive, and women as priests.
It's really hard to win a debate against women's ordination if they keep coming up with catchy tunes such as this one... http://youtu.be/Y0S2WlvNTU8

;D :D ;D :D
 
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Peter J said:
Asteriktos said:
PeterTheAleut said:
we believe the Pope vacated the Roman See by falling into heresy in 1054. ;)
What heresy did they fall into in 1054?  :eek:
Dating the schism from the 11th, rather than 15th, century doesn't make sense to me, but it is conventional.
Well if Papal Infaillability makes sense to you, you are not a reliable criteria for what makes sense or not.
 

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Peter J said:
Asteriktos said:
PeterTheAleut said:
we believe the Pope vacated the Roman See by falling into heresy in 1054. ;)
What heresy did they fall into in 1054?  :eek:
Dating the schism from the 11th, rather than 15th, century doesn't make sense to me, but it is conventional.
I do understand that the issue of the schism between East and West is a lot more nuanced than I just made it out to be, but 1054 is a convenient year for the basest of polemics. ;)
 

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orthros said:
sedevacantist said:
Cyrillic said:
sedevacantist said:
The False Apparitions at Bayside, NY
The False Apparitions at Medjugorje
Protip: the other apparitions are all false too.
sorry Fatima is not false, I suggest you look into the subject in depth
Whether Fatima is true or not, it's irrelevant to your position since private revelation is always optional, a point I'm presuming you affirm.  If not, let us know so we can move on as you're then openly espousing heresy.

On a different topic, I still haven't had a sedevacantist explain the authority issue well to me.  As in, how do you have the authority, as laymen, to declare a Pope's election invalid?

You can make a case that John XXIII is an antipope.  I've heard others claim Paul VI was the first antipope, as well as Pius XII and as far back as Pope Leo XIII (reign ended 1903).  Google for lots of examples of all of these; it's the slippery slope of layman judging those in ecclesial authority. 

So how do you manage to make this judgment without falling into the same essential trap as Lutheranism?
I will repeat what I wrote on the other thread
The Catholic Encyclopedia
, “Heresy,” 1914, Vol. 7, p. 261: “
The pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.”
St. Robert Bellarmine, Cardinal and Doctor of the Church,
De Romano Pontifice
, II, 30:
"A pope who is a manifest heretic automatically (per se) ceases to be pope and head
, just as he ceases automatically to be a Christian and a member of the Church. Wherefore, he can be judged and punished by the Church.
This is the teaching of all the ancient Fathers who teach that manifest heretics immediately lose all jurisdiction."
St. Francis De Sales (17th century), Doctor of the Church,
The Catholic Controversy , pp.305-306: "Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church.
So the easiest way as I see it to prove a pope is not a catholic is when he goes against the magisterium, for example can people of false religions be saved...
Pope Eugene IV,
Council of Florence
, “Cantate Domino,” 1441:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans
but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for
the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives...”
so vatican 2 is clearly not catholic to anyone who is of good will and knows how to read, we have John 23 who was a freemason, we have post vatican 2 popes praying in synagogues, just like this Francis chap, so I ask all catholics how can you in good faith be in communion with Rome and consider yourself Catholic? do you not realize there has been an infiltration of paedophiles? why is this so hard to see?
 

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sedevacantist said:
The Catholic Encyclopedia
, “Heresy,” 1914, Vol. 7, p. 261: “
The pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.”
St. Robert Bellarmine, Cardinal and Doctor of the Church,
And that's why the Orthodox Church hasn't had a Roman Pope since 1054...
 

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choy said:
It is not wild, its fact.  You refuse to submit yourselves to the supreme infallible Roman Pontiff, therefore you are not Catholic. You have no authority to declare the Pope as a heretic because the Popes all the way from the 1100s have declared themselves to be above judgement of any mortal.  Only God can judge them.  Of course we Orthodox do not believe that, but we also do not claim to be Roman Catholics, so no problems there.  As a Roman Catholic, you must believe that, and if you believe that then you have to accept the current Pope.  To declare the Pope heretic is to deny a 900 year old teaching of the Roman Catholic Church (you only reject Vatican II so you cannot reject this teaching) that the Pope is above judgement by any mere human being.  And if you deny that teaching, you are not Roman Catholic.
choy said:
For those of us who has 33 years of Roman Catholic catechism in our heads, we just don't want to put such information to waste  ;D
I'm trying to fnd some consistency in your posts. But I fail.

First you, using the phrase "we Orthodox" (could you remind me when were you received into the Church? I missed that) infallibly proclaim what "we Orthodox" believe or not believe. Then you defend the Roman Catholic Church from some other Roman Catholics who do not agree with it.

Can you decide what are you? Catholic? Orthodox? Orthodox catechuman? What do you believe?
 

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Michał Kalina said:
choy said:
It is not wild, its fact.  You refuse to submit yourselves to the supreme infallible Roman Pontiff, therefore you are not Catholic. You have no authority to declare the Pope as a heretic because the Popes all the way from the 1100s have declared themselves to be above judgement of any mortal.  Only God can judge them.  Of course we Orthodox do not believe that, but we also do not claim to be Roman Catholics, so no problems there.  As a Roman Catholic, you must believe that, and if you believe that then you have to accept the current Pope.  To declare the Pope heretic is to deny a 900 year old teaching of the Roman Catholic Church (you only reject Vatican II so you cannot reject this teaching) that the Pope is above judgement by any mere human being.  And if you deny that teaching, you are not Roman Catholic.
choy said:
For those of us who has 33 years of Roman Catholic catechism in our heads, we just don't want to put such information to waste  ;D
I'm trying to fnd some consistency in your posts. But I fail.

First you, using the phrase "we Orthodox" (could you remind me when were you received into the Church? I missed that) infallibly proclaim what "we Orthodox" believe or not believe. Then you defend the Roman Catholic Church from some other Roman Catholics who do not agree with it.

Can you decide what are you? Catholic? Orthodox? Orthodox catechuman? What do you believe?
I for one think Choy has consistently put forth these views not as his own, but as what he has been taught in the Orthodox and Catholic Catechism classes respectively.
 

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sheenj said:
Michał Kalina said:
choy said:
It is not wild, its fact.  You refuse to submit yourselves to the supreme infallible Roman Pontiff, therefore you are not Catholic. You have no authority to declare the Pope as a heretic because the Popes all the way from the 1100s have declared themselves to be above judgement of any mortal.  Only God can judge them.  Of course we Orthodox do not believe that, but we also do not claim to be Roman Catholics, so no problems there.  As a Roman Catholic, you must believe that, and if you believe that then you have to accept the current Pope.  To declare the Pope heretic is to deny a 900 year old teaching of the Roman Catholic Church (you only reject Vatican II so you cannot reject this teaching) that the Pope is above judgement by any mere human being.  And if you deny that teaching, you are not Roman Catholic.
choy said:
For those of us who has 33 years of Roman Catholic catechism in our heads, we just don't want to put such information to waste  ;D
I'm trying to fnd some consistency in your posts. But I fail.

First you, using the phrase "we Orthodox" (could you remind me when were you received into the Church? I missed that) infallibly proclaim what "we Orthodox" believe or not believe. Then you defend the Roman Catholic Church from some other Roman Catholics who do not agree with it.

Can you decide what are you? Catholic? Orthodox? Orthodox catechuman? What do you believe?
I for one think Choy has consistently put forth these views not as his own, but as what he has been taught in the Orthodox and Catholic Catechism classes respectively.
I don't think that's what Mike is addressing. If choy is really an Orthodox catechumen as he says he is, then why does he continue to insert himself into arguments internal to the Roman Catholic Church that he left? Such internecine RC squabbles should no longer be his concern, since he left them behind.
 

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sedevacantist said:
I will pray for you that 1 day you will see the light, you are outside the church , Pope Pius X11 isn't an anti pope, show me where he wrote this, and there's no chance he would embrace orthodoxy or any old catholic religion
Aren't there some sede groups who think that he was an anti-Pope?
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
sheenj said:
Michał Kalina said:
choy said:
It is not wild, its fact.  You refuse to submit yourselves to the supreme infallible Roman Pontiff, therefore you are not Catholic. You have no authority to declare the Pope as a heretic because the Popes all the way from the 1100s have declared themselves to be above judgement of any mortal.  Only God can judge them.  Of course we Orthodox do not believe that, but we also do not claim to be Roman Catholics, so no problems there.  As a Roman Catholic, you must believe that, and if you believe that then you have to accept the current Pope.  To declare the Pope heretic is to deny a 900 year old teaching of the Roman Catholic Church (you only reject Vatican II so you cannot reject this teaching) that the Pope is above judgement by any mere human being.  And if you deny that teaching, you are not Roman Catholic.
choy said:
For those of us who has 33 years of Roman Catholic catechism in our heads, we just don't want to put such information to waste  ;D
I'm trying to fnd some consistency in your posts. But I fail.

First you, using the phrase "we Orthodox" (could you remind me when were you received into the Church? I missed that) infallibly proclaim what "we Orthodox" believe or not believe. Then you defend the Roman Catholic Church from some other Roman Catholics who do not agree with it.

Can you decide what are you? Catholic? Orthodox? Orthodox catechuman? What do you believe?
I for one think Choy has consistently put forth these views not as his own, but as what he has been taught in the Orthodox and Catholic Catechism classes respectively.
I don't think that's what Mike is addressing. If choy is really an Orthodox catechumen as he says he is, then why does he continue to insert himself into arguments internal to the Roman Catholic Church that he left? Such internecine RC squabbles should no longer be his concern, since he left them behind.
While I think Choy is just a great guy, you know very well that ex-Catholics can't help themselves.  :D
 

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Michał Kalina said:
choy said:
It is not wild, its fact.  You refuse to submit yourselves to the supreme infallible Roman Pontiff, therefore you are not Catholic. You have no authority to declare the Pope as a heretic because the Popes all the way from the 1100s have declared themselves to be above judgement of any mortal.  Only God can judge them.  Of course we Orthodox do not believe that, but we also do not claim to be Roman Catholics, so no problems there.  As a Roman Catholic, you must believe that, and if you believe that then you have to accept the current Pope.  To declare the Pope heretic is to deny a 900 year old teaching of the Roman Catholic Church (you only reject Vatican II so you cannot reject this teaching) that the Pope is above judgement by any mere human being.  And if you deny that teaching, you are not Roman Catholic.
choy said:
For those of us who has 33 years of Roman Catholic catechism in our heads, we just don't want to put such information to waste  ;D
I'm trying to fnd some consistency in your posts. But I fail.

First you, using the phrase "we Orthodox" (could you remind me when were you received into the Church? I missed that) infallibly proclaim what "we Orthodox" believe or not believe. Then you defend the Roman Catholic Church from some other Roman Catholics who do not agree with it.

Can you decide what are you? Catholic? Orthodox? Orthodox catechuman? What do you believe?
Choy is no longer Catholic, but is not yet Orthodox.
Since he is an Orthodox catechumen, he is part of us.
Let us pray for him. 
 

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Maria said:
Since he is an Orthodox catechumen, he is part of us.
"Us"? He attends an OCA parish, you are a true-genuine-patristic-something type.

Oh, I forgot. You also can't decide whether you left your previous Church or not.
 

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Papist said:
PeterTheAleut said:
sheenj said:
Michał Kalina said:
choy said:
It is not wild, its fact.  You refuse to submit yourselves to the supreme infallible Roman Pontiff, therefore you are not Catholic. You have no authority to declare the Pope as a heretic because the Popes all the way from the 1100s have declared themselves to be above judgement of any mortal.  Only God can judge them.  Of course we Orthodox do not believe that, but we also do not claim to be Roman Catholics, so no problems there.  As a Roman Catholic, you must believe that, and if you believe that then you have to accept the current Pope.  To declare the Pope heretic is to deny a 900 year old teaching of the Roman Catholic Church (you only reject Vatican II so you cannot reject this teaching) that the Pope is above judgement by any mere human being.  And if you deny that teaching, you are not Roman Catholic.
choy said:
For those of us who has 33 years of Roman Catholic catechism in our heads, we just don't want to put such information to waste  ;D
I'm trying to fnd some consistency in your posts. But I fail.

First you, using the phrase "we Orthodox" (could you remind me when were you received into the Church? I missed that) infallibly proclaim what "we Orthodox" believe or not believe. Then you defend the Roman Catholic Church from some other Roman Catholics who do not agree with it.

Can you decide what are you? Catholic? Orthodox? Orthodox catechuman? What do you believe?
I for one think Choy has consistently put forth these views not as his own, but as what he has been taught in the Orthodox and Catholic Catechism classes respectively.
I don't think that's what Mike is addressing. If choy is really an Orthodox catechumen as he says he is, then why does he continue to insert himself into arguments internal to the Roman Catholic Church that he left? Such internecine RC squabbles should no longer be his concern, since he left them behind.
While I think Choy is just a great guy, you know very well that ex-Catholics can't help themselves.  :D
I can tell. ::) ;)
 

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Michał Kalina said:
"Us"? He attends an OCA parish, you are a true-genuine-patristic-something type.
I wasn't aware that Orthodoxy is like Theosis, where some are just more Orthodox than others.
 

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Michał Kalina said:
I'm trying to fnd some consistency in your posts. But I fail.

First you, using the phrase "we Orthodox" (could you remind me when were you received into the Church? I missed that) infallibly proclaim what "we Orthodox" believe or not believe. Then you defend the Roman Catholic Church from some other Roman Catholics who do not agree with it.

Can you decide what are you? Catholic? Orthodox? Orthodox catechuman? What do you believe?
If you have a problem to the times I use "we" as I relate teachings that were given to me, you can write to my bishop and ask him why my priest told me that those are what the Orthodox believe.

I am Orthodox and I believe what the Orthodox believe.  But again, am I supposed to just develop amnesia for the 36 years I was Catholic?  Am I supposed to forget what the Roman Catholic Church says what makes a Catholic or not?
 

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choy said:
But again, am I supposed to just develop amnesia for the 36 years I was Catholic?  Am I supposed to forget what the Roman Catholic Church says what makes a Catholic or not?
"Should I stop being Roman Catholic when I join the Orthodox Church?"

Yeah, pretty much.
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
I don't think that's what Mike is addressing. If choy is really an Orthodox catechumen as he says he is, then why does he continue to insert himself into arguments internal to the Roman Catholic Church that he left? Such internecine RC squabbles should no longer be his concern, since he left them behind.
Should I pretend that I do not know what makes a Roman Catholic or not per Roman Catholic teaching?
 

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Michał Kalina said:
choy said:
But again, am I supposed to just develop amnesia for the 36 years I was Catholic?  Am I supposed to forget what the Roman Catholic Church says what makes a Catholic or not?
"Should I stop being Roman Catholic when I join the Orthodox Church?"

Yeah, pretty much.
Oh, so you have a right to speak for me and I don't have a right to speak for you?
 

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Michał Kalina said:
choy said:
But again, am I supposed to just develop amnesia for the 36 years I was Catholic?  Am I supposed to forget what the Roman Catholic Church says what makes a Catholic or not?
"Should I stop being Roman Catholic when I join the Orthodox Church?"

Yeah, pretty much.
Which is totally different from erasing from his memory and thought processes 30+ years of Catholic teaching.  And I think you probably know that.
 

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choy said:
PeterTheAleut said:
I don't think that's what Mike is addressing. If choy is really an Orthodox catechumen as he says he is, then why does he continue to insert himself into arguments internal to the Roman Catholic Church that he left? Such internecine RC squabbles should no longer be his concern, since he left them behind.
Should I pretend that I do not know what makes a Roman Catholic or not per Roman Catholic teaching?
No, just stop pretending that you know. What does it matter to you what makes a Roman Catholic or not per Roman Catholic teaching, anyway? You left all that behind, remember?
 

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choy said:
Michał Kalina said:
choy said:
But again, am I supposed to just develop amnesia for the 36 years I was Catholic?  Am I supposed to forget what the Roman Catholic Church says what makes a Catholic or not?
"Should I stop being Roman Catholic when I join the Orthodox Church?"

Yeah, pretty much.
Oh, so you have a right to speak for me and I don't have a right to speak for you?
I noticed that too.
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
choy said:
PeterTheAleut said:
I don't think that's what Mike is addressing. If choy is really an Orthodox catechumen as he says he is, then why does he continue to insert himself into arguments internal to the Roman Catholic Church that he left? Such internecine RC squabbles should no longer be his concern, since he left them behind.
Should I pretend that I do not know what makes a Roman Catholic or not per Roman Catholic teaching?
No, just stop pretending that you know. What does it matter to you what makes a Roman Catholic or not per Roman Catholic teaching, anyway? You left all that behind, remember?
Maybe it matters to him. A person can have knowledge about a group without belonging to it. Why are you so concerned about what Choy says and does?
 

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Michał Kalina said:
Peter J said:
Maria said:
There is no love of the Code of Canon Law in the Melkite Church
... which, of course, you aren't a part of.
Why should they care about it? They follow the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches instead.
When did you become a Melkite Catholic?
 

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choy said:
I am Orthodox
You can't assert that, yet.

choy said:
and I believe what the Orthodox believe.
What do the Orthodox believe and how is that different from Roman/Greek Catholicism?

choy said:
But again, am I supposed to just develop amnesia for the 36 years I was Catholic?  Am I supposed to forget what the Roman Catholic Church says what makes a Catholic or not?
When you receive the Holy Oil of Chrismation, you become a new man having put the old man in the past.  If you're still lured by Roman/Greek Catholicism, perhaps you need to discuss that with your Priest who's supervising your catechism.  You're not smarter than your Priest.  :eek:
 

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J Michael said:
Michał Kalina said:
choy said:
But again, am I supposed to just develop amnesia for the 36 years I was Catholic?  Am I supposed to forget what the Roman Catholic Church says what makes a Catholic or not?
"Should I stop being Roman Catholic when I join the Orthodox Church?"

Yeah, pretty much.
Which is totally different from erasing from his memory and thought processes 30+ years of Catholic teaching.  And I think you probably know that.
I also have 30+ years of Catholic teaching, including time spent at a Catholic university and in a convent.
And yes, if we continue to treat catechumens with disrespect, and fail to pray for them, they might not persevere. And the fault will be ours because of our lack of patience and love.

Could we return to the original topic?
If the original topic has been fully discussed, I would like make a suggestion: Please lock this thread permanently.
 

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Maria said:
Could we return to the original topic?
If the original topic has been fully discussed, I would like make a suggestion: Please lock this thread permanently.
That might be a good idea, since the thread seems to have devolved into a "let's be rude to Choy" thread for some posters.
 

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choy said:
I am Orthodox and I believe what the Orthodox believe.  But again, am I supposed to just develop amnesia for the 36 years I was Catholic?  Am I supposed to forget what the Roman Catholic Church says what makes a Catholic or not?
You should not renounce anything, but bring all that is best in RCC with you and enrich with it the Orthodox Church. You should not judge other people and tell what makes a catholic a catholic - just as you shouldn't have when being catholic.
 

SolEX01

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Apotheoun said:
SolEX01 said:
If you're still lured by Roman/Greek Catholicism . . .
I didn't know that Choy was still attracted to the Roman Catholic Church, in the sense of wanting to be Catholic, where did he indicate that he is?
I was making a friendly suggestion because he is a cathecumen and he has expressed strong feelings for both Orthodoxy and Catholicism throughout his posting history here. . . .
 
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