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The Mother of God prayed for protection from the toll houses?

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[49] St. Dimitri of Rosotv. The Assumption of Our Most Holy Lady, the Mother of God and Ever-virgin Mary. Jordanville, NY: Holy Trinity Monastery, 1990, p. 6; St. John Maximovitch, The Orthodox Veneration of Mary, the Birthgiver of God, p. 23; St. Nikolai Velimirovich. The Prologue from Ochrid: Lives of the Saints and Homilies for Every Day of the Year, Part 3: July, August, September. Trans. Mother Maria. Birmingham: Lazarica, 1986, p. 198; Holy Apostles Convent, The Life of the Virgin Mary, the Theotokos, p. 448; Bp. Nathanael of Vienna and Austria. “The Holy Righteous Abraham, Moses and Elias as Preparers of Man’s Salvation.” Orthodox Life 28.6 (Nov- Dec. 1978), p. 45; and the Lamentation service states: “At your Ascension into Heaven all the aerial spirits were overcome with awe and fear, O pure one, and trembled before your power, 2nd Stasis, number 28, p. 18. All these sources thus far are of Slavic origin, but this tradition is also mentioned by Archimandrite Vassilios Bakoyannis, who even says that the Theotokos prayed for two weeks before her repose to be protected from the toll houses, The Mother of Christ: the Mother of God, p. 95. The Mother of God would have asked for protection from the toll houses because she is supremely holy, and thus supremely humble, not trusting in her own works. This tradition should not be considered to in any way detract from her All-holiness. Furthermore, Bp. Nathanael also says, “It is natural for chastity and modesty to seek to avoid all contact and even proximity with those who bear filth, impudence and shamelessness,” The Holy Righteous Abraham, Moses and Elias, p. 45.



http://oldbelieving.wordpress.com/2012/03/06/on-the-panagia/#_ftn49
 

88Devin12

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Didnt you check the website itself? Not really a trustworthy source of Orthodox material.

EDIT: I may be wrong, while it says "Old Believing" it doesn't seem to be an Old Believer site like I thought.
 
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88Devin12 said:
Didnt you check the website itself? Not really a trustworthy source of Orthodox material.

EDIT: I may be wrong, while it says "Old Believing" it doesn't seem to be an Old Believer site like I thought.
The blogger says he is not an old believer but likes the term.
 

Iconodule

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88Devin12 said:
Didnt you check the website itself? Not really a trustworthy source of Orthodox material.

EDIT: I may be wrong, while it says "Old Believing" it doesn't seem to be an Old Believer site like I thought.
The blog is done by an OCA seminarian who I know is quite Orthodox, whether one agrees with what he says or not.

Perhaps more important though are his sources which he cites well. St. Dmitri of Rostov is certainly trustworthy, though I can anticipate howls of "Western captivity!" and other such nonsense.
 

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We would really need some evidence that the Theotokos did so. St Dimitri is a nice source, but he was 17th Century. We'd need prior corroborating sources, preferably ones going back at least to the 4th or 5th Century if not earlier.

I really doubt the earliest Christians believed in aerial toll houses. There is patristic evidence for toll houses (at least in allegory) but we can't read that knowledge back into the First Century, just like we can't take hesychasm (as an example) back into the First Century. Of course that doesn't mean it's wrong to accept the orthodoxy of these things, but that we shouldn't read them back into earlier times. We may find evidence that it was occurring, but we can't expect the earliest adherents to have believed in these ideas.

As another example. We know Satan exists, but we can't assume that Abraham, Moses and others knew about Satan since the complete idea/knowledge of him didn't appear until after the Babylonian captivity. He certainly existed, but we can't say that the people prior to the Babylonian captivity knew who Satan was and believed in his existance as understood after the captivity.
 

Iconodule

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The footnote is question is connected to a single sentence: "According to some texts, Christ personally received her soul because she had prayed that He would protect her from the aerial toll houses."

So Mr. Dominick is not attempting to promote this as a universal doctrine.
 

augustin717

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Is "The Dream of the Mother of God" or "The Epistle of the Mother of God" known in English?
 

Iconodule

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augustin717 said:
Is "The Dream of the Mother of God" or "The Epistle of the Mother of God" known in English?
In the book Medieval Russia's Epics, Chronicles, and Tales edited by Serge A. Zenkovsky there is a translation of a piece entitled, "The Descent of the Virgin into Hell" AKA "The Visitation to the Torments by the Mother of God". The Theotokos views the various torments of hell, and, gathering the support of angels and saints, petitions Christ to grant them some respite every year. Is this what you're talking about? It is also mentioned in The Brothers Karamazov and according to Dostoevsky it was originally written in Greek.

I think it's beautiful literature, whether one accepts it as "canonical" or not.
 

augustin717

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Iconodule said:
augustin717 said:
Is "The Dream of the Mother of God" or "The Epistle of the Mother of God" known in English?
In the book Medieval Russia's Epics, Chronicles, and Tales edited by Serge A. Zenkovsky there is a translation of a piece entitled, "The Descent of the Virgin into Hell" AKA "The Visitation to the Torments by the Mother of God". The Theotokos views the various torments of hell, and, gathering the support of angels and saints, petitions Christ to grant them some respite every year. Is this what you're talking about? It is also mentioned in The Brothers Karamazov and according to Dostoevsky it was originally written in Greek.

I think it's beautiful literature, whether one accepts it as "canonical" or not.
It sounds like that. It would interest me to know the origin of the two.  They were very widespread among Romanians too.
 

jah777

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recent convert said:
this tradition is also mentioned by Archimandrite Vassilios Bakoyannis, who even says that the Theotokos prayed for two weeks before her repose to be protected from the toll houses, The Mother of Christ: the Mother of God, p. 95. The Mother of God would have asked for protection from the toll houses because she is supremely holy, and thus supremely humble, not trusting in her own works. This tradition should not be considered to in any way detract from her All-holiness.
St. John of San Francisco refers to this as well.  He states:

[size=10pt] How terrible these demons and their toll-houses are may be seen in the fact that Mother of God Herself, when informed by the Archangel Gabriel of Her approaching death, answering Her prayer, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself appeared from heaven to receive the soul of His Most Pure Mother and conduct it to heaven.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/death/lifeafterdeath.aspx
 

Iconodule

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augustin717 said:
Iconodule said:
augustin717 said:
Is "The Dream of the Mother of God" or "The Epistle of the Mother of God" known in English?
In the book Medieval Russia's Epics, Chronicles, and Tales edited by Serge A. Zenkovsky there is a translation of a piece entitled, "The Descent of the Virgin into Hell" AKA "The Visitation to the Torments by the Mother of God". The Theotokos views the various torments of hell, and, gathering the support of angels and saints, petitions Christ to grant them some respite every year. Is this what you're talking about? It is also mentioned in The Brothers Karamazov and according to Dostoevsky it was originally written in Greek.

I think it's beautiful literature, whether one accepts it as "canonical" or not.
It sounds like that. It would interest me to know the origin of the two.  They were very widespread among Romanians too.
An interesting thing is that the break from torment lasts from Holy Thursday until Pentecost, according to this text. It is on the Vespers of Pentecost that the Church prays for souls to be delivered from hell. This practice must be fairly ancient since the Coptic Church used the same prayers until recently.

"On this universal and salutary feast, deign to accept petitions for those imprisoned in Hades, thus giving us great hope, and relief to the departed from their grievous distress and Your comfort. Hear us, humble and pitiable, as we pray to You, and give rest to the souls of Your Servants who have departed this life, in a place of light, a place of renewed life, a joyous place, shunned alike by pain and sorrow and sighing. And place their spirits where the Righteous dwell, counting them worthy of peace and repose; for the dead do not praise You, Lord, nor do those in Hades dare to offer You glory, but it is we the living who bless and entreat You and offer You propitiatory prayers and sacrifices for their souls."

So the "Descent of the Virgin" and these prayers must have a root in some common tradition.
 

LBK

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"According to some texts, Christ personally received her soul because she had prayed that He would protect her from the aerial toll houses."
There is a much, much more believable and cogent reason for Christ receiving the soul of His mother, which renders the toll-house idea unnecessary and irrelevant:

It is common in icons of the dormitions of saints to see the soul of the reposed saint represented as a babe in swaddling clothes being taken to heaven by an angel. In all icons of the Dormition of the Mother of God, we see Christ, surrounded by the radiance of Uncreated Light, standing at His mother's bier, looking down at her, and holding her soul.

This particularly beautiful motif shows Him to be the custodian of His mother's soul, taking it Himself back to heaven, not even entrusting it to the angels. This is, of course, completely consistent with the supreme regard given to the Mother of God, who is, after all, "more honourable than the cherubim and incomparably more glorious than the seraphim". It also represents another "closing of a circle" of salvation history: Once, the Mother brought the divine Child into the world, and nurtured Him in her arms. Now, in death, her soul is in the arms of her Son, and is brought to heaven by Him.
 

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jah777 said:
St. John of San Francisco refers to this as well.  He states:

[size=10pt] How terrible these demons and their toll-houses are may be seen in the fact that Mother of God Herself, when informed by the Archangel Gabriel of Her approaching death, answering Her prayer, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself appeared from heaven to receive the soul of His Most Pure Mother and conduct it to heaven.
http://orthodoxinfo.com/death/lifeafterdeath.aspx
Yes, but we must ignore the little miracle working man with the bare feet.  Those here on the forum are so much more wise and holy than he ever thought of being.
 

Schultz

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Punch said:
jah777 said:
St. John of San Francisco refers to this as well.  He states:

[size=10pt] How terrible these demons and their toll-houses are may be seen in the fact that Mother of God Herself, when informed by the Archangel Gabriel of Her approaching death, answering Her prayer, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself appeared from heaven to receive the soul of His Most Pure Mother and conduct it to heaven.
http://orthodoxinfo.com/death/lifeafterdeath.aspx
Yes, but we must ignore the little miracle working man with the bare feet.  Those here on the forum are so much more wise and holy than he ever thought of being.
Because being a miracle worker with bare feet means one is infallible and impeccable.

Oh wait...
 
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3 sermons of St. John of Damascus on the Dormition of the Theotokos:  http://www.balamandmonastery.org.lb/index.php/sprituality/patristic-texts-on-the-dormition-feast/st-john-of-damascus-three-sermons-on-the-dormition-feast


I could not detect any toll houses.
 

LBK

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recent convert said:
3 sermons of St. John of Damascus on the Dormition of the Theotokos:  http://www.balamandmonastery.org.lb/index.php/sprituality/patristic-texts-on-the-dormition-feast/st-john-of-damascus-three-sermons-on-the-dormition-feast


I could not detect any toll houses.
Neither is there any mention of them in the hymnography for the Dormition.
 

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it could also be put that she prayed for Christ to take her soul so that she would not even have to see the demons, because they are so hideous to one so holy.
 

Punch

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No, because those on the forum so much more wise than he.  Not to mention all of the miracles they perform, Icons they have made of them, and troparia sung to them.  I am going to drop my membership in the Orthdodox Church and start to worship the highly exalted Saints of OC.net.

Schultz said:
Punch said:
jah777 said:
St. John of San Francisco refers to this as well.  He states:

[size=10pt] How terrible these demons and their toll-houses are may be seen in the fact that Mother of God Herself, when informed by the Archangel Gabriel of Her approaching death, answering Her prayer, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself appeared from heaven to receive the soul of His Most Pure Mother and conduct it to heaven.
http://orthodoxinfo.com/death/lifeafterdeath.aspx
Yes, but we must ignore the little miracle working man with the bare feet.  Those here on the forum are so much more wise and holy than he ever thought of being.
Because being a miracle worker with bare feet means one is infallible and impeccable.

Oh wait...
 

Iconodule

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Punch said:
No, because those on the forum so much more wise than he.  Not to mention all of the miracles they perform, Icons they have made of them, and troparia sung to them.  I am going to drop my membership in the Orthdodox Church and start to worship the highly exalted Saints of OC.net.
Your selectivity in honoring saints' opinions has also been on display here.
 
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