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The movie "The passion of the Christ".

vamrat

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The Last Temptation of Christ goes places that I would prefer not to go.  (I have only read the wikipedia synopsis, and it was enough.)  Though, I did youtube the part with David Bowie as Pilate.  I just had to.

In The Passion, I liked how Mel put in the Harrowing of Hell, as I think this is the most important part of the whole ordeal until the Resurrection.  Through His destruction of the Gates of Hell, Christ made a symbol of shameful execution into a symbol of power and victory.  IC XC NIKA. 
 

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The Last Temptation of Christ is tough to watch and made me squeamish, but delivered the full package for me as a human being.
I know Jesus is the Son of God but I really like thinking of Him as a man more often, as that fulfills the same need and function I have in thinking of Saints.
 

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LenInSebastopol said:
The Last Temptation of Christ is tough to watch and made me squeamish, but delivered the full package for me as a human being.
I know Jesus is the Son of God but I really like thinking of Him as a man more often, as that fulfills the same need and function I have in thinking of Saints.
I've seen and I appreciate what Kazantzakis was trying to do, but I think he did it wrong. I like the message that any temptation to deny His Cross and adopt a normal, happy, married life would be a temptation of the Devil. But it doesn't reflect what we actually believe about how Christ dealt with His temptations, which is that He never succumbed to them. What we believe is actually an important message for us, namely that we never have to succumb to temptation, but can repel them by His power.

As for "Passion", I know Gibson embellished the story with details from certain Catholic mystics' visions, but is there anything in it that's actually heretical from an Orthodox point of view? I'm not sure there is.
 

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I find it interesting to hear complaints that a depiction of a Roman crucifixion was gruesome. And by "interesting", I mean "absurd".
 

LenInSebastopol

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Well, Jonathan, you make a finer point and go further than I was able to.
Of course Kazantzakis did it wrong. They all do it wrong and never will get it right.
Of course, spoiler alert, He cried out as a human being and suffered as a human being and was tempted as us all. Did He give into it? He THOUGHT about that sequence, but did not commit sin, thinking things is not a sin (unless you are Catholic  :)) No, He remained sinless, as we all know. Did the film indicate such? I don't recall, but I will take your view on that, until I see it again. And I'm in no rush to do so.
 

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LenInSebastopol said:
Well, Jonathan, you make a finer point and go further than I was able to.
Of course Kazantzakis did it wrong. They all do it wrong and never will get it right.
Of course, spoiler alert, He cried out as a human being and suffered as a human being and was tempted as us all. Did He give into it? He THOUGHT about that sequence, but did not commit sin, thinking things is not a sin (unless you are Catholic  :)) No, He remained sinless, as we all know. Did the film indicate such? I don't recall, but I will take your view on that, until I see it again. And I'm in no rush to do so.
I think the problem is that having doubts, i.e. failure to trust completely in Providence, is in itself sinful (yes, we believe in sinful thoughts just like Catholics). Christ's prayer in Gethsemane is not traditionally interpreted as an expression of doubt. Fear is different from doubt, since fear is inherent in our fallen nature. Christ expressed fear ("let this cup pass away from me") but at the same time affirmed his faith ("not as I will, but as you will").

In the LTC, Christ actually felt and expressed doubts. The impression you get is that Christ is just some normal guy with this strange other power trying to take over his life and compel his actions towards a certain end, a power that He doesn't really understand and desires to evade. It's Nestorianism on steroids. The truth is that Christ can't ever have had doubts, since the same Person who suffered as a Man on earth was the Son of God, and how can God doubt Himself?
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Peacemaker said:
Edit: I personally don't see why anyone would choose to make 2 hour movie about Christ' death. The climax belongs to the resurrection, trampling down death by death. Christians share in Jesus' death in baptism, so we will also share in His resurrection for Jesus was designated the Son of God by His resurrection. Without the resurrection we remain dead and there is no life. The resurrection is important, why do you think we celebrate it every Sunday and dedicate a whole season for Pascha.
You ever read the Octoechos (for Fridays) or the Triodion? 

I actually think Mel Gibson did a good job of incorporating "the resurrection" in his film.  All that torture, suffering, and death, and at the very end of the film, Satan, stripped of power, laments, while Christ emerges from the tomb like a boss.  What else would you include? 

The passion was the last time the general public ever saw Christ.  The actual rising from the dead was not seen by anyone, and the risen Christ only appears to a chosen few afterwards.  I don't think it's so scandalous to focus the bulk of the movie on a depiction of what *everyone* saw and balance it out with a couple of scenes which *no one* saw but which complete the depiction. 

Frankly, Orthodox people would do well to meditate on the Passion more than they do.  As it is, everyone seems to prefer the happy ending, ignoring how we got there unless it is gilded or enameled.   
+1000
 

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"The Temptation of Christ" is bad theology.  Someone once brought to my attention how people have made Christ more like a man made God, rather than God made man because they lacked the stories of the saints in their lives.  They would feel such stories are really dogmatically unnecessary, since all that one requires is Christ.  But such is a Protestant thinking.  If one believes in the Church, one has to believe in the saints, who are an extension of the incarnation.  So if one wants a Christ who experienced sexual temptation, look no further than the Christs of God, St. Mary of Egypt and St. Moses the Black.  One is looking for a Christ who experienced doubt in faith, St. Augustine.  One is looking for a Christ who left a violent religion and was killed for it, St. Ahmed the Calligrapher.  One is looking for a Christ who had some stigma of bad illness, like leprosy, St. Nicephorus.  One is looking for a Christ who had a homosexual past, St. Seraphim Rose.  One is looking for a Christ who was a thief, the one who was crucified next to Christ!

But then you ask, these are not Christ!  I want the God made man to struggle in all these.  I think it's foolish to ignore all those who have "put on Christ".  The Cross that Christ suffered, the pain and feeling of "forsakenness" summarizes all the sins and sufferings of all those who believe and put on Christ past, present, and future.  The Church can only realize its salvation when it is nailed on the Cross with Him as Him.  Christ did not suffer sexual urges or urges to murder someone or the urge to blaspheme His own Father or doubt Him, but He gladly took that position on behalf of all in the hopes that all may gladly take His position on the right hand of the Father through Him.  So I believe in Christ through any saint, and saints, being the Church, should not be ignored but believed in as well.  They are who I should be, a vehicle of salvation for me, and not some mere stories that we remember.  The more we ask whether Christ had particular temptations in life, the more we seem to lack the importance of the saints in our lives as a true extension of the incarnation of the Word.
 

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While there are some issues with the movie, I still think it's the best Christian movie to date.  As one who normally giggles at gory horror movies and rolls my eyes at sappy sentimental movies, I was appropriately horrified and moved to tears.
 

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minasoliman said:
"The Temptation of Christ" is bad theology.  Someone once brought to my attention how people have made Christ more like a man made God, rather than God made man because they lacked the stories of the saints in their lives.  They would feel such stories are really dogmatically unnecessary, since all that one requires is Christ.  But such is a Protestant thinking.  If one believes in the Church, one has to believe in the saints, who are an extension of the incarnation.  So if one wants a Christ who experienced sexual temptation, look no further than the Christs of God, St. Mary of Egypt and St. Moses the Black.  One is looking for a Christ who experienced doubt in faith, St. Augustine.  One is looking for a Christ who left a violent religion and was killed for it, St. Ahmed the Calligrapher.  One is looking for a Christ who had some stigma of bad illness, like leprosy, St. Nicephorus.  One is looking for a Christ who had a homosexual past, St. Seraphim Rose.  One is looking for a Christ who was a thief, the one who was crucified next to Christ!

But then you ask, these are not Christ!  I want the God made man to struggle in all these.  I think it's foolish to ignore all those who have "put on Christ".  The Cross that Christ suffered, the pain and feeling of "forsakenness" summarizes all the sins and sufferings of all those who believe and put on Christ past, present, and future.  The Church can only realize its salvation when it is nailed on the Cross with Him as Him.  Christ did not suffer sexual urges or urges to murder someone or the urge to blaspheme His own Father or doubt Him, but He gladly took that position on behalf of all in the hopes that all may gladly take His position on the right hand of the Father through Him.  So I believe in Christ through any saint, and saints, being the Church, should not be ignored but believed in as well.  They are who I should be, a vehicle of salvation for me, and not some mere stories that we remember.  The more we ask whether Christ had particular temptations in life, the more we seem to lack the importance of the saints in our lives as a true extension of the incarnation of the Word.
Well done.
 

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ZealousZeal said:
I find it interesting to hear complaints that a depiction of a Roman crucifixion was gruesome. And by "interesting", I mean "absurd".
My priest once said that he prefers the more dignified look of Orthodox icons more than the more realistic Catholic depictions.  The dignified portrayal shows that Christ was a lamb that allowed Himself to be led to the slaughter.  As He said to Pilate, if He had willed it, legions of Angels could have put an end to the madness.

That said, the more brutal depiction brings it home how nasty it would have been.  The worst part for me is comparing it to other depictions of the Gospels showing Christ's love and kindness to people and then seeing how He was treated for it.
 

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minasoliman said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Peacemaker said:
Edit: I personally don't see why anyone would choose to make 2 hour movie about Christ' death. The climax belongs to the resurrection, trampling down death by death. Christians share in Jesus' death in baptism, so we will also share in His resurrection for Jesus was designated the Son of God by His resurrection. Without the resurrection we remain dead and there is no life. The resurrection is important, why do you think we celebrate it every Sunday and dedicate a whole season for Pascha.
You ever read the Octoechos (for Fridays) or the Triodion? 

I actually think Mel Gibson did a good job of incorporating "the resurrection" in his film.  All that torture, suffering, and death, and at the very end of the film, Satan, stripped of power, laments, while Christ emerges from the tomb like a boss.  What else would you include? 

The passion was the last time the general public ever saw Christ.  The actual rising from the dead was not seen by anyone, and the risen Christ only appears to a chosen few afterwards.  I don't think it's so scandalous to focus the bulk of the movie on a depiction of what *everyone* saw and balance it out with a couple of scenes which *no one* saw but which complete the depiction. 

Frankly, Orthodox people would do well to meditate on the Passion more than they do.  As it is, everyone seems to prefer the happy ending, ignoring how we got there unless it is gilded or enameled.   
+1000
besides times that, I add that I think that the PotC was the only movie to portray the harrowing of hell.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kJFf6VDd6o
 

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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) said:
TheTrisagion said:
I was deeply emotionally moved the first time I saw it. The second time I saw it, I was mostly just sick to my stomach with the intense brutality of it all. I did love the ending though.
I saw it once; I was shaken to the core and sickened by the intense brutality. It did make me appreciate fully our Lord's passion. But, I have not seen it again, nor do I want or need to. Just like my heart attacks and eventual heart transplant, once is enough.
Carl,

This is partly to you, but more to all the others here that complain about the brutality.

As homedad and Mor elude to, were you expecting the Disney version?  Of course it was brutal!  Have none of you ever been to the Passion Gospel service on Thursday night (Matins of Holy Friday w/ 12 Gospel readings) and the other Holy Week services or did you just never pay attention to the Gospel readings and the hymns the choir/chanters were singing.  They're pretty brutal too!  Considering I sing them every year, the "violence" of the film really didn't bother me too much.  I think it's a powerful, well done film for the most part (apart from the Anne Catherine Emmerich stuff I wouldn't necessarily agree with being Orthodox and all).
 

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ialmisry said:
minasoliman said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Peacemaker said:
Edit: I personally don't see why anyone would choose to make 2 hour movie about Christ' death. The climax belongs to the resurrection, trampling down death by death. Christians share in Jesus' death in baptism, so we will also share in His resurrection for Jesus was designated the Son of God by His resurrection. Without the resurrection we remain dead and there is no life. The resurrection is important, why do you think we celebrate it every Sunday and dedicate a whole season for Pascha.
You ever read the Octoechos (for Fridays) or the Triodion? 

I actually think Mel Gibson did a good job of incorporating "the resurrection" in his film.  All that torture, suffering, and death, and at the very end of the film, Satan, stripped of power, laments, while Christ emerges from the tomb like a boss.  What else would you include? 

The passion was the last time the general public ever saw Christ.  The actual rising from the dead was not seen by anyone, and the risen Christ only appears to a chosen few afterwards.  I don't think it's so scandalous to focus the bulk of the movie on a depiction of what *everyone* saw and balance it out with a couple of scenes which *no one* saw but which complete the depiction. 

Frankly, Orthodox people would do well to meditate on the Passion more than they do.  As it is, everyone seems to prefer the happy ending, ignoring how we got there unless it is gilded or enameled.   
+1000
besides times that, I add that I think that the PotC was the only movie to portray the harrowing of hell.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kJFf6VDd6o
How is that the Harrowing of Hell? Yes, it doesn't show anybody else down there with Satan, but Satan would not be in the Bosom of Abraham anyway.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Peacemaker said:
Edit: I personally don't see why anyone would choose to make 2 hour movie about Christ' death. The climax belongs to the resurrection, trampling down death by death. Christians share in Jesus' death in baptism, so we will also share in His resurrection for Jesus was designated the Son of God by His resurrection. Without the resurrection we remain dead and there is no life. The resurrection is important, why do you think we celebrate it every Sunday and dedicate a whole season for Pascha.
You ever read the Octoechos (for Fridays) or the Triodion? 

I actually think Mel Gibson did a good job of incorporating "the resurrection" in his film.  All that torture, suffering, and death, and at the very end of the film, Satan, stripped of power, laments, while Christ emerges from the tomb like a boss.  What else would you include? 

The passion was the last time the general public ever saw Christ.  The actual rising from the dead was not seen by anyone, and the risen Christ only appears to a chosen few afterwards.  I don't think it's so scandalous to focus the bulk of the movie on a depiction of what *everyone* saw and balance it out with a couple of scenes which *no one* saw but which complete the depiction. 

Frankly, Orthodox people would do well to meditate on the Passion more than they do.  As it is, everyone seems to prefer the happy ending, ignoring how we got there unless it is gilded or enameled.   
My one Priest and I got into an enormous row over this film. I defended it; he was the detractor. It was second in fervor only to our month long fight over the way overrated flick he loved, The Seven Samarai.
 

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Jonathan Gress said:
LenInSebastopol said:
Well, Jonathan, you make a finer point and go further than I was able to.
Of course Kazantzakis did it wrong. They all do it wrong and never will get it right.
Of course, spoiler alert, He cried out as a human being and suffered as a human being and was tempted as us all. Did He give into it? He THOUGHT about that sequence, but did not commit sin, thinking things is not a sin (unless you are Catholic  :)) No, He remained sinless, as we all know. Did the film indicate such? I don't recall, but I will take your view on that, until I see it again. And I'm in no rush to do so.
I think the problem is that having doubts, i.e. failure to trust completely in Providence, is in itself sinful (yes, we believe in sinful thoughts just like Catholics). Christ's prayer in Gethsemane is not traditionally interpreted as an expression of doubt. Fear is different from doubt, since fear is inherent in our fallen nature. Christ expressed fear ("let this cup pass away from me") but at the same time affirmed his faith ("not as I will, but as you will").

In the LTC, Christ actually felt and expressed doubts. The impression you get is that Christ is just some normal guy with this strange other power trying to take over his life and compel his actions towards a certain end, a power that He doesn't really understand and desires to evade. It's Nestorianism on steroids. The truth is that Christ can't ever have had doubts, since the same Person who suffered as a Man on earth was the Son of God, and how can God doubt Himself?
Post of the month nominee!
 

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Volnutt said:
ialmisry said:
besides times that, I add that I think that the PotC was the only movie to portray the harrowing of hell.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kJFf6VDd6o
How is that the Harrowing of Hell? Yes, it doesn't show anybody else down there with Satan, but Satan would not be in the Bosom of Abraham anyway.
What do you think that scene is depicting? 
 

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vamrat said:
ZealousZeal said:
I find it interesting to hear complaints that a depiction of a Roman crucifixion was gruesome. And by "interesting", I mean "absurd".
My priest once said that he prefers the more dignified look of Orthodox icons more than the more realistic Catholic depictions.  The dignified portrayal shows that Christ was a lamb that allowed Himself to be led to the slaughter.  As He said to Pilate, if He had willed it, legions of Angels could have put an end to the madness.

That said, the more brutal depiction brings it home how nasty it would have been.  The worst part for me is comparing it to other depictions of the Gospels showing Christ's love and kindness to people and then seeing how He was treated for it.
Yes. It is uncomfortable to be faced with the reality of what a crucifixion then would have looked like, and even harder for us now to grasp the connotations of the time- this was a really shameful, humiliating way to die. So, I feel the need to defend The Passion for not giving us yet another portrayal of Christ on the cross with a bit of blood trickling down the side of his face and Pantene Pro V commercial hair. That's just not realistic. I try to only watch it sparingly, because I don't want to ever become so familiar with it that it doesn't horrify me anymore.

That said, I don't take issue with how the crucifixion is portrayed in icons at all (not that I'm anybody to even have a right to mind :p). People aren't portrayed in icons in a super-realistic way/style, and they aren't trying to be a literal snapshot in time.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Volnutt said:
ialmisry said:
besides times that, I add that I think that the PotC was the only movie to portray the harrowing of hell.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kJFf6VDd6o
How is that the Harrowing of Hell? Yes, it doesn't show anybody else down there with Satan, but Satan would not be in the Bosom of Abraham anyway.
What do you think that scene is depicting?
Satan's anger at his defeat.
 

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Volnutt said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Volnutt said:
ialmisry said:
besides times that, I add that I think that the PotC was the only movie to portray the harrowing of hell.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kJFf6VDd6o
How is that the Harrowing of Hell? Yes, it doesn't show anybody else down there with Satan, but Satan would not be in the Bosom of Abraham anyway.
What do you think that scene is depicting?
Satan's anger at his defeat.
Thanks. 

What do you think the Harrowing of Hell is?
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Volnutt said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Volnutt said:
ialmisry said:
besides times that, I add that I think that the PotC was the only movie to portray the harrowing of hell.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kJFf6VDd6o
How is that the Harrowing of Hell? Yes, it doesn't show anybody else down there with Satan, but Satan would not be in the Bosom of Abraham anyway.
What do you think that scene is depicting?
Satan's anger at his defeat.
Thanks. 

What do you think the Harrowing of Hell is?
The proclamation of Christ's defeat of death and the devil to the souls in Hades, the leading of "captivity captive."
 

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minasoliman said:
"The Temptation of Christ" is bad theology.  Someone once brought to my attention how people have made Christ more like a man made God, rather than God made man because they lacked the stories of the saints in their lives.  They would feel such stories are really dogmatically unnecessary, since all that one requires is Christ.  But such is a Protestant thinking.  If one believes in the Church, one has to believe in the saints, who are an extension of the incarnation.  So if one wants a Christ who experienced sexual temptation, look no further than the Christs of God, St. Mary of Egypt and St. Moses the Black.  One is looking for a Christ who experienced doubt in faith, St. Augustine.  One is looking for a Christ who left a violent religion and was killed for it, St. Ahmed the Calligrapher.  One is looking for a Christ who had some stigma of bad illness, like leprosy, St. Nicephorus.  One is looking for a Christ who had a homosexual past, St. Seraphim Rose.  One is looking for a Christ who was a thief, the one who was crucified next to Christ!

But then you ask, these are not Christ!  I want the God made man to struggle in all these.  I think it's foolish to ignore all those who have "put on Christ".  The Cross that Christ suffered, the pain and feeling of "forsakenness" summarizes all the sins and sufferings of all those who believe and put on Christ past, present, and future.  The Church can only realize its salvation when it is nailed on the Cross with Him as Him.  Christ did not suffer sexual urges or urges to murder someone or the urge to blaspheme His own Father or doubt Him, but He gladly took that position on behalf of all in the hopes that all may gladly take His position on the right hand of the Father through Him.  So I believe in Christ through any saint, and saints, being the Church, should not be ignored but believed in as well.  They are who I should be, a vehicle of salvation for me, and not some mere stories that we remember.  The more we ask whether Christ had particular temptations in life, the more we seem to lack the importance of the saints in our lives as a true extension of the incarnation of the Word.
Minasoliman, you wrote sound and good reasons about viewing that movie, TLTC. I don't go to the movies to get theology, and you are right. 
Your above post is one excellent reason why the Catholic Church banned us from seeing this movie and reading Katzanzakis' book when published. That word "Temptation" flies in the face of so many!

I can only tell you why I liked the movie: the portrayal of Jesus as man, an ordinary Joe, like me. As am a man I can identify more closely with this movie portrayal than a theological treatise. Life, love, family (not just, but also sex) and enjoying what many normal people may have is a temptation for anyone with A Mission from God. I know, He knew, and all should know, He Is God and as a man had a job to do, so this movie picks up from there. And while suffering the sins of all mankind His Job had temptations  as a human being because He was a human being. This was simply His last. So many times many folks may think, Jesus played the "God-card" so He could do "all that stuff", however that is the reason He sends us Saints, to show us ordinary men can practice theosis towards His Perfection as God. I am glad of this portrayal as this gift (as portrayed in His last temptation) was given to me by Him and the joy of this " common & ordinary" gift, He knew and thought, as the Devil showed Him, much like a dream, lasting only a second or two.
My priest gave me a word (misspelled) from the Greek: logismoi.
The meaning of, as I understood it and it works for me though I am positive someone here will say I am in error, is "entertaining thought" or "dwelling in thought" on something, as with a sin or temptation. If I see a girl, that thought can simply be, however if I dwell on this 'n that about that girl, then I have sinned.  For example, during Lent one may think of chocolate or meat, but simply and quickly "dash them on the Rock" and know it is just food. "Move on", is the expression nowadays. Which is a good place to end.
 

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A two hour torture scene is not my idea of a great film. I think Gibson's mania was better used on Apocalypto.
 

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Mor Ephrem said:
Volnutt said:
ialmisry said:
besides times that, I add that I think that the PotC was the only movie to portray the harrowing of hell.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kJFf6VDd6o
How is that the Harrowing of Hell? Yes, it doesn't show anybody else down there with Satan, but Satan would not be in the Bosom of Abraham anyway.
What do you think that scene is depicting?
Who knows, but it should have stayed on the editing floor.
 

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Volnutt said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Volnutt said:
Mor Ephrem said:
Volnutt said:
ialmisry said:
besides times that, I add that I think that the PotC was the only movie to portray the harrowing of hell.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kJFf6VDd6o
How is that the Harrowing of Hell? Yes, it doesn't show anybody else down there with Satan, but Satan would not be in the Bosom of Abraham anyway.
What do you think that scene is depicting?
Satan's anger at his defeat.
Thanks. 

What do you think the Harrowing of Hell is?
The proclamation of Christ's defeat of death and the devil to the souls in Hades, the leading of "captivity captive."
You do well to read the Holy Saturday liturgical texts more closely. 
 

minasoliman

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LenInSebastopol said:
minasoliman said:
"The Temptation of Christ" is bad theology.  Someone once brought to my attention how people have made Christ more like a man made God, rather than God made man because they lacked the stories of the saints in their lives.  They would feel such stories are really dogmatically unnecessary, since all that one requires is Christ.  But such is a Protestant thinking.  If one believes in the Church, one has to believe in the saints, who are an extension of the incarnation.  So if one wants a Christ who experienced sexual temptation, look no further than the Christs of God, St. Mary of Egypt and St. Moses the Black.  One is looking for a Christ who experienced doubt in faith, St. Augustine.  One is looking for a Christ who left a violent religion and was killed for it, St. Ahmed the Calligrapher.  One is looking for a Christ who had some stigma of bad illness, like leprosy, St. Nicephorus.  One is looking for a Christ who had a homosexual past, St. Seraphim Rose.  One is looking for a Christ who was a thief, the one who was crucified next to Christ!

But then you ask, these are not Christ!  I want the God made man to struggle in all these.  I think it's foolish to ignore all those who have "put on Christ".  The Cross that Christ suffered, the pain and feeling of "forsakenness" summarizes all the sins and sufferings of all those who believe and put on Christ past, present, and future.  The Church can only realize its salvation when it is nailed on the Cross with Him as Him.  Christ did not suffer sexual urges or urges to murder someone or the urge to blaspheme His own Father or doubt Him, but He gladly took that position on behalf of all in the hopes that all may gladly take His position on the right hand of the Father through Him.  So I believe in Christ through any saint, and saints, being the Church, should not be ignored but believed in as well.  They are who I should be, a vehicle of salvation for me, and not some mere stories that we remember.  The more we ask whether Christ had particular temptations in life, the more we seem to lack the importance of the saints in our lives as a true extension of the incarnation of the Word.
Minasoliman, you wrote sound and good reasons about viewing that movie, TLTC. I don't go to the movies to get theology, and you are right. 
Your above post is one excellent reason why the Catholic Church banned us from seeing this movie and reading Katzanzakis' book when published. That word "Temptation" flies in the face of so many!

I can only tell you why I liked the movie: the portrayal of Jesus as man, an ordinary Joe, like me. As am a man I can identify more closely with this movie portrayal than a theological treatise. Life, love, family (not just, but also sex) and enjoying what many normal people may have is a temptation for anyone with A Mission from God. I know, He knew, and all should know, He Is God and as a man had a job to do, so this movie picks up from there. And while suffering the sins of all mankind His Job had temptations  as a human being because He was a human being. This was simply His last. So many times many folks may think, Jesus played the "God-card" so He could do "all that stuff", however that is the reason He sends us Saints, to show us ordinary men can practice theosis towards His Perfection as God. I am glad of this portrayal as this gift (as portrayed in His last temptation) was given to me by Him and the joy of this " common & ordinary" gift, He knew and thought, as the Devil showed Him, much like a dream, lasting only a second or two.
My priest gave me a word (misspelled) from the Greek: logismoi.
The meaning of, as I understood it and it works for me though I am positive someone here will say I am in error, is "entertaining thought" or "dwelling in thought" on something, as with a sin or temptation. If I see a girl, that thought can simply be, however if I dwell on this 'n that about that girl, then I have sinned.  For example, during Lent one may think of chocolate or meat, but simply and quickly "dash them on the Rock" and know it is just food. "Move on", is the expression nowadays. Which is a good place to end.
No one denied Christ had temptations as a man.  But the problem was the movie made it look that He dwelt on those temptations and that He had to have had temptations that I suffer through.  He had temptations all right, but I wonder if you can handle the temptations He was tempted with.  He was asked that if He was the son of God, He can turn stone to bread.  What's the sin in that?  He was asked if He was the son of God, He can jump off a cliff and have angels catch Him.  Perhaps, the sin is to fall off the cliff in a suicidal risk, but Christ could easily have not taken any risk.  So what's the sin in that?  If you knew you could get a lesion of angels to come and destroy the Satan who is pitifully trying to deceive you, why not show him how much of the Son of God you really are?  And Satan then tries to provoke Him.  He now shows Him the whole world, the glories, and maybe even the women in it if He worshipped him.  Now, Satan is no idiot.  If you ask God to worship Satan, you are either an idiot, or there is something else Satan wanted Christ to do, which was to take over the world Himself to prove to Satan He is the Son of God without the need to worship him.  But Satan was fooled, and Christ stood humbly victorious.  He did not dwell on those thoughts. 

On the Cross, Christ once again was given a temptation, a chance to prove Himself.  If He comes down from the Cross against all odds, it would seem the whole world should believe in Him (with great fear and trembling perhaps).  "If You are the Son of God" they said, mocking Him.  If you had powers to leave the Cross, just a mere human being, and someone said, "If you are able to do so, save yourself".  In other words, the reverse is tempted to be true, that is since you do not save yourself, you're unable.  But you are.  This is a much stronger temptation than wanting a family and sex life, don't you think?  But Christ did not even dwell on that thought.  He asked His Father to forgive them for they did not know what they are doing.  Does that sound like someone who dwelt on temptations offered by that movie?  Does the movie sound Scriptural to you?

The movie made it seem He dwelt on them.  I agree with the ban by the Catholic Church.  It confuses minds.  It gave you a Nestorian Christ, a Christ who struggled with the temptations He was given, a Christ who dwelt on them.  We are those Christs, but THE Christ is not that one.  THE Son of God does not dwell on the thoughts of these temptations.  He received them, but did not succumb even a blink of an eye to the thought of them.  And if THE Christ was just another human being who struggled with temptations and dwelt on them, effectively sinning in the mind like me, then how can I a fellow co-essential human being trust in a sinful Son of God to save me from my sins?  If one has to save you from the pit, He has to come into the pit, not be one of those who are already in it.
 

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The Book even tells us that Jesus was hungry after 40 days, so the stone:bread thingy is more than just bodily food temptations, with many fleshly desires like lust, gluttony as well, as the mind in power, glory, and of course his specialty, pride. The Man was major hungry so The Liar creating self doubt with such questions about His identity as the Son of The Most High would have put a strong buzz in the brain on a hot desert sun-filled-day.
The world, then and now as it stands, has Satan as a major influence, and he knows in the end he will lose it, so he asked Our Lord for his worship since he wishes to keep this world forever. One would think that Satan knew The Plan & Mission, and as stated previously, a normal life would have been a great temptation, especially in a weakened state of pain, mockery, suffering with an 'angel' leading Him off The Cross to show Him such. For me it was like a "tortured genius" syndrome, maybe like Beethoven wishing he could hear his own works....will never know, but I did like the movie. Again, it is all bad theology and always will be, outside of The Book itself it mostly goes down hill.
 

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LenInSebastopol said:
The Book even tells us that Jesus was hungry after 40 days, so the stone:bread thingy is more than just bodily food temptations, with many fleshly desires like lust, gluttony as well, as the mind in power, glory, and of course his specialty, pride. The Man was major hungry so The Liar creating self doubt with such questions about His identity as the Son of The Most High would have put a strong buzz in the brain on a hot desert sun-filled-day.
The world, then and now as it stands, has Satan as a major influence, and he knows in the end he will lose it, so he asked Our Lord for his worship since he wishes to keep this world forever. One would think that Satan knew The Plan & Mission, and as stated previously, a normal life would have been a great temptation, especially in a weakened state of pain, mockery, suffering with an 'angel' leading Him off The Cross to show Him such. For me it was like a "tortured genius" syndrome, maybe like Beethoven wishing he could hear his own works....will never know, but I did like the movie. Again, it is all bad theology and always will be, outside of The Book itself it mostly goes down hill.
Yes true, He was super hungry, which all the more makes the temptation more tempting.  But I would strongly avoid any idea He doubted His own identity as the Son of God.  I strongly reject any such notion.  I believe Christ stood like a stalwart soldier against the temptations offered to Him without a hint of doubt or thinking twice about them.  This at least seems to me what the Scriptutes suggest in the context of the stories of His temptations, let alone what the Church fathers taught.
 

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I apologize for my poor writing skills We agree that He never doubted His identity as The Son of God, but to be very hungry and have some buzz-head bugging, any guy would be more than a great irritant. Bugger would deserve at least a body slam, no?
 

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LenInSebastopol said:
I apologize for my poor writing skills We agree that He never doubted His identity as The Son of God, but to be very hungry and have some buzz-head bugging, any guy would be more than a great irritant. Bugger would deserve at least a body slam, no?
Did He suffer extreme hunger yes. Did it cause Him to struggle physicially and mentally? Yes. Was it a factor into the strength of the temptation? Yes. Did He dwell on the temptation? No! I'm not sure what you want anymore than this.
 

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minasoliman said:
LenInSebastopol said:
The Book even tells us that Jesus was hungry after 40 days, so the stone:bread thingy is more than just bodily food temptations, with many fleshly desires like lust, gluttony as well, as the mind in power, glory, and of course his specialty, pride. The Man was major hungry so The Liar creating self doubt with such questions about His identity as the Son of The Most High would have put a strong buzz in the brain on a hot desert sun-filled-day.
The world, then and now as it stands, has Satan as a major influence, and he knows in the end he will lose it, so he asked Our Lord for his worship since he wishes to keep this world forever. One would think that Satan knew The Plan & Mission, and as stated previously, a normal life would have been a great temptation, especially in a weakened state of pain, mockery, suffering with an 'angel' leading Him off The Cross to show Him such. For me it was like a "tortured genius" syndrome, maybe like Beethoven wishing he could hear his own works....will never know, but I did like the movie. Again, it is all bad theology and always will be, outside of The Book itself it mostly goes down hill.
Yes true, He was super hungry, which all the more makes the temptation more tempting.  But I would strongly avoid any idea He doubted His own identity as the Son of God.  I strongly reject any such notion.  I believe Christ stood like a stalwart soldier against the temptations offered to Him without a hint of doubt or thinking twice about them.  This at least seems to me what the Scriptutes suggest in the context of the stories of His temptations, let alone what the Church fathers taught.
I agree. We should not believe that the wiles of the Evil One had any effect on him (nor would they need, hypothetically, to have any on us if we were fully infilled with faith [trust in God]).
 

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Porter ODoran said:
I agree. We should not believe that the wiles of the Evil One had any effect on him (nor would they need, hypothetically, to have any on us if we were fully infilled with faith [trust in God]).
Ah, yes,those minor details and language 'if' and 'hypothetically'.
I can barely drive my truck without committing my sins of passion, and you wish me to do what?  :-\
Lord, protect me from idiots who drive like me as well as those who agree and disagree with me.
 

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JamesR said:
I hope this doesn't come off as blasphemous, but I actually found the film comical in a gratituous sort of way. Take away the Jesus reference and it's just another silly 1970s Tom Savini splatter-fest horror movie. That said, I found the film more offensive and somewhat blasphemous than I did emotionally moving or spiritually beneficial. To see our Lord's final, darkest hours portrayed in such a ridiculous, comically violent way was more appalling than moving. I feel like that film is one of the biggest trolls to Christendom. It's hailed as the de facto Christian classic even though it's little more than Dawn of the Dead/Texas Chainsaw Massacre beneath a Jesus veil. Sickening.
There is a guy I watched on YouTube until he stopped watching videos because he had too info on Orthodoxy. Other than his obstinate errors and borderline heresies (like Augustine not being a saint) I liked him much. He did not like the movie either. He said the only parts that he liked were when he saw the Theotokos. That is the part which made me cry--seeing her. I like the movie though. But I wrote a poem today that may come off blasphemous:

And, forgive me that I care not
For those canons or the Holy Cross,
But the sorrow with which you look,
For those tears wash away my sin.

I would take the knife to my chest
Or cut my wrists in a warm bath,
Except you weep at the Cross,
And that passion holds my hand.
But I do like the film. I watch it every Good Friday. But it is very Western, yes. Focuses on the one part. I like that is makes Pilate to be a good guy. There are various accounts of Pilate's conversion and his wife is a saint, I think. Here is an excerpt from my favorite account:


And again the Cæsar set himself to question Pilate; and he orders a captain named Albius to cut off Pilate's head, saying: Just as he laid hands upon the just man named Christ, in like manner also shall he fall, and not find safety.

And Pilate, going away to the place, prayed in silence, saying: Lord, do not destroy me along with the wicked Hebrews, because I would not have laid hands upon You, except for the nation of the lawless Jews, because they were exciting rebellion against me. But You know that I did it in ignorance. Do not then destroy me for this my sin; but remember not evil against me, O Lord, and against Your servant Procla, who is standing with me in this the hour of my death, whom You appointed to prophesy that You should be nailed to the cross. Do not condemn her also in my sin; but pardon us, and make us to be numbered in the portion of Your righteous.

And, behold, when Pilate had finished his prayer, there came a voice out of the heaven, saying: All the generations and families of the nations shall count you blessed, because under you have been fulfilled all those things said about me by the prophets; and you yourself shall be seen as my witness at my second appearing, when I shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel, and those that have not owned my name. And the prefect struck off the head of Pilate; and, behold, an angel of the Lord received it. And his wife Procla, seeing the angel coming and receiving his head, being filled with joy herself also, immediately gave up the ghost, and was buried along with her husband.
Source: The Giving Up of Pontius Pilate
http://newadvent.org/fathers/0811.htm

Pilate was executed for putting Christ to death, who Caesar thought was a prophet and one of the gods. The whole earthquake thing convinced him of this. Another account has Pilate commit the noble Roman suicide (noble to Romans, where the condemned kills himself, rather than face shame, as did Marcus Brutus and Cato in the Roman Republic). It says:

Then the emperor ordered [Pilate[ to be kept in prison, until he should deliberate in a council of the wise men what ought to be done with him. And a few days after, sentence was therefore passed upon Pilate, that he should be condemned to the most disgraceful death. Pilate, hearing this, killed himself with his own knife, and by such a death ended his life.
Source: The Death of Pilate
http://newadvent.org/fathers/0812.htm


I also like the depiction of Claudia. I am moved, too, when she goes down to the Blessed Mother and gives her towels. St. Claudia was a mystic. She dreamed about Christ and found the Faith. And she converted her husband, and was taken up to heaven by angels with him, at least to the first account.
 

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According to Christian legend her name was either, Procula or Claudia. She has been made a saint by the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and is called Saint Procula, Saint Claudia, or Saint Procula Claudia;
Source: http://www.womeninthescriptures.com/2009/05/pontius-pilates-wife.html

Here is an icon of her and her husband



Source: http://www.thereligionnetwork.com/APRIL_07/THE_MYSTERY_OF_CLAUDIA_PROCULA_04-12-07.html


Apparently she and Pilate are saints. Seculars do not like the idea because it casts blame on the Jews. Which I am not doing, at least not the modern Jews. I am blaming more the ones that were there, because Christ outright said it! But making Pilate a saint, well, that's just anti-Semitic you see. It places the burden on the Jews, not the Romans. I am not sure if Gibson knew about all this, but I think he knew the accounts I quoted at least. I hate when movies depict Pilate as a total jerk. And I really admire St. Claudia. I admire her compassion and mysticism.
 

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wainscottbl said:
I hate when movies depict Pilate as a total jerk.
Isn't that how almost everyone in the ancient world depicted/wrote of Pilate?
 

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wainscottbl said:
According to Christian legend her name was either, Procula or Claudia. She has been made a saint by the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and is called Saint Procula, Saint Claudia, or Saint Procula Claudia;
Source: http://www.womeninthescriptures.com/2009/05/pontius-pilates-wife.html

Here is an icon of her and her husband



Source: http://www.thereligionnetwork.com/APRIL_07/THE_MYSTERY_OF_CLAUDIA_PROCULA_04-12-07.html


Apparently she and Pilate are saints. Seculars do not like the idea because it casts blame on the Jews. Which I am not doing, at least not the modern Jews. I am blaming more the ones that were there, because Christ outright said it! But making Pilate a saint, well, that's just anti-Semitic you see. It places the burden on the Jews, not the Romans. I am not sure if Gibson knew about all this, but I think he knew the accounts I quoted at least. I hate when movies depict Pilate as a total jerk. And I really admire St. Claudia. I admire her compassion and mysticism.
I like the idea of Pilate's sainthood if the implication is that he eventually repented. I don't like the Ethiopian idea that washing his hands literally absolved his guilt in the Crucifixion, that does seem a tad Antisemitic to me.

I don't think it can be the earthquake that brought him around though, given Luke 23:11-12:

And Herod with his soldiers, after treating Him with contempt and mocking Him, dressed Him in a gorgeous robe and sent Him back to Pilate. Now Herod and Pilate became friends with one another that very day; for before they had been enemies with each other.
 

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Volnutt said:
wainscottbl said:
According to Christian legend her name was either, Procula or Claudia. She has been made a saint by the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and is called Saint Procula, Saint Claudia, or Saint Procula Claudia;
Source: http://www.womeninthescriptures.com/2009/05/pontius-pilates-wife.html

Here is an icon of her and her husband



Source: http://www.thereligionnetwork.com/APRIL_07/THE_MYSTERY_OF_CLAUDIA_PROCULA_04-12-07.html


Apparently she and Pilate are saints. Seculars do not like the idea because it casts blame on the Jews. Which I am not doing, at least not the modern Jews. I am blaming more the ones that were there, because Christ outright said it! But making Pilate a saint, well, that's just anti-Semitic you see. It places the burden on the Jews, not the Romans. I am not sure if Gibson knew about all this, but I think he knew the accounts I quoted at least. I hate when movies depict Pilate as a total jerk. And I really admire St. Claudia. I admire her compassion and mysticism.
I like the idea of Pilate's sainthood if the implication is that he eventually repented. I don't like the Ethiopian idea that washing his hands literally absolved his guilt in the Crucifixion, that does seem a tad Antisemitic to me.

I don't think it can be the earthquake that brought him around though, given Luke 23:11-12:

And Herod with his soldiers, after treating Him with contempt and mocking Him, dressed Him in a gorgeous robe and sent Him back to Pilate. Now Herod and Pilate became friends with one another that very day; for before they had been enemies with each other.
According to one of the accounts of his death that I linked above, he did repent, though he did say something about the "wicked Jews", etc. But that is true, the "wicked Jews", if it is being used in the context of the Passion. Christ did say they were much more to blame. Blaming the Jews today for killing Christ, well that's stupid. We all kill Christ, by our sins.
 
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