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The Sacred Heart

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Deacon Lance

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elijahmaria said:
St. Bernard is hardly stretching it.  Are you aware of his famous prayer to many of Jesus' body parts?  That poem set the tone for ALL that came after.
I am aware of the Prayer to the Sacred Members of Christ on the Cross and like the Memorare and Vitis Mystica which were/are incorrectly attributed to him I believe this to be the case with this prayer as well.  It is too well developed.  I think St. Bonaventure and the others I cited are surer ground to stand on and easily refute the claim that St. Margaret Mary invented the devotion.
 

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Deacon Lance said:
elijahmaria said:
St. Bernard is hardly stretching it.  Are you aware of his famous prayer to many of Jesus' body parts?  That poem set the tone for ALL that came after.
I am aware of the Prayer to the Sacred Members of Christ on the Cross and like the Memorare and Vitis Mystica which were/are incorrectly attributed to him I believe this to be the case with this prayer as well.  It is too well developed.  I think St. Bonaventure and the others I cited are surer ground to stand on and easily refute the claim that St. Margaret Mary invented the devotion.
I am not so willing to pass it off as an error in attribution.  I don't have the texts with me but I've seen some pretty good historical and textual arguments in favor of it being St. Bernard's composition.
 

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elijahmaria said:
Deacon Lance said:
elijahmaria said:
St. Bernard is hardly stretching it.  Are you aware of his famous prayer to many of Jesus' body parts?  That poem set the tone for ALL that came after.
I am aware of the Prayer to the Sacred Members of Christ on the Cross and like the Memorare and Vitis Mystica which were/are incorrectly attributed to him I believe this to be the case with this prayer as well.  It is too well developed.  I think St. Bonaventure and the others I cited are surer ground to stand on and easily refute the claim that St. Margaret Mary invented the devotion.
I am not so willing to pass it off as an error in attribution.  I don't have the texts with me but I've seen some pretty good historical and textual arguments in favor of it being St. Bernard's composition.
Oh look.  More amorphous sources.
 

elijahmaria

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Schultz said:
elijahmaria said:
Deacon Lance said:
elijahmaria said:
St. Bernard is hardly stretching it.  Are you aware of his famous prayer to many of Jesus' body parts?  That poem set the tone for ALL that came after.
I am aware of the Prayer to the Sacred Members of Christ on the Cross and like the Memorare and Vitis Mystica which were/are incorrectly attributed to him I believe this to be the case with this prayer as well.  It is too well developed.  I think St. Bonaventure and the others I cited are surer ground to stand on and easily refute the claim that St. Margaret Mary invented the devotion.
I am not so willing to pass it off as an error in attribution.  I don't have the texts with me but I've seen some pretty good historical and textual arguments in favor of it being St. Bernard's composition.
Oh look.  More amorphous sources.
Well...no....the sources are sound.  I am the amorphous one who has to periodically return things to the library  8)

Besides...members of Bernard's religious order are perfectly happy to accept what textual evidence they have that he is the author of that particular prayer...so that's good'nuff fer me.  I don't need 20 lay historians to back that up fer me...

PS: follows an explanation of the Memorare and how it may sound like things that St. Bernard wrote but it is not his composition.  Odd that you won't find the same kind of detailed explanation for the rhythmical prayer.

http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/BVM/Memorare.html

NB THAT THE MEMORARE IS OLDER THAN St. BERNARD
 

elijahmaria

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Deacon Lance said:
elijahmaria said:
St. Bernard is hardly stretching it.  Are you aware of his famous prayer to many of Jesus' body parts?  That poem set the tone for ALL that came after.
I am aware of the Prayer to the Sacred Members of Christ on the Cross and like the Memorare and Vitis Mystica which were/are incorrectly attributed to him I believe this to be the case with this prayer as well.  It is too well developed.  I think St. Bonaventure and the others I cited are surer ground to stand on and easily refute the claim that St. Margaret Mary invented the devotion.
Can you explain what you mean by "too well developed?"

Are you aware that the Memorare is OLDER than St. Bernard. 

Is the Memorare too well developed as well?

Here is a source on-line that references that editors who claim that the Vitis Mystica comes from St. Bonaventure rather than St. Bernard, HOWEVER, the entire scholarly monastic community is NOT in full agreement.

http://www.thesacredheart.com/shdhis.htm

I will continue to look for more amorphous sources but not not not...this instant. :)
 

PeterTheAleut

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elijahmaria said:
Besides...members of Bernard's religious order are perfectly happy to accept what textual evidence they have that he is the author of that particular prayer...so that's good'nuff fer me.  I don't need 20 lay historians to back that up fer me...
We don't care if it's good enough for YOU, Mary. If you're going to try to convince US that what you say is true, the evidence has to be good enough for US.
 

elijahmaria

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PeterTheAleut said:
elijahmaria said:
Besides...members of Bernard's religious order are perfectly happy to accept what textual evidence they have that he is the author of that particular prayer...so that's good'nuff fer me.  I don't need 20 lay historians to back that up fer me...
We don't care if it's good enough for YOU, Mary. If you're going to try to convince US that what you say is true, the evidence has to be good enough for US.
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.  I don't care that you don't care.  ;)
 

PeterTheAleut

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elijahmaria said:
PeterTheAleut said:
elijahmaria said:
Besides...members of Bernard's religious order are perfectly happy to accept what textual evidence they have that he is the author of that particular prayer...so that's good'nuff fer me.  I don't need 20 lay historians to back that up fer me...
We don't care if it's good enough for YOU, Mary. If you're going to try to convince US that what you say is true, the evidence has to be good enough for US.
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.  I don't care that you don't care.  ;)
Then don't ever expect to convince us with your sic Maria dixits and your references to amorphous sources.
 

elijahmaria

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While I have been looking for amorphous sources to indicate that the door is not closed on St. Bernard as author of Vitis Mystica, I ran across a good article on the Sacred Heart devotion:

http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/DoorTwoHeartsAreOne.html

But the Vitis Mystica and Memorare are not the same situation as the Rythmical Prayer so there's still more to discover...for those who are open...to discovery that is... :laugh:
 

elijahmaria

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For the Mockers, Rockers and Dockers, here is a reference to the fact that the jury is still out on whether or not St. Bernard or St. Bonaventure is really the author of Vitis Mystica:

http://tiny.cc/b1p98

 

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If I may jump in rather late,

Aren't we rather missing the point in trying to determine a date for this 'devotion'? Who cares if it was pre- or post-schism? Arius' teachings were all pre-schism, it doesn't make them instantly Orthodox.

The Roman Catholics' schism was not one sudden action that severed their ties with Holy Orthodoxy, it was a series of things culminating in the schism. We should not look at whether or not something existed pre- or post-schism, but whether it is Orthodox or not. It should go without saying that it is only Orthodox themselves who are qualified to make that judgement, and so it is curious that Roman Catholics are so prevalent on a board about Orthodoxy to defend their own actions. This thread on the sacred heart has nothing to do with you, if you want to go to First Friday Masses go do it and let us to determine amongst ourselves what belongs in the future of The Church. For a group who supposedly doesn't care what we do there is certainly a lot of (often vicious, and directed at Clergy no less) rhetoric devoted to it by your side on this thread.

Western Orthodoxy, IMO, should not be about setting the clock back and trying to act as though we're beginning a step in 1053 and ending it in 2011. It must acknowledge the gap and not accept something just because it is Western or pre-schism, but truly filter everything through the lens of Truth. The best of (and I believe in the majority from what I've seen) WRO do just this. Our brothers and sisters in the west began veering away from Orthodoxy long before the schism. Our Western brothers and sisters now should take care, and not fear to reform (while obviously still staying true to their Western patrimony) their current liturgies and practices so as to ensure the security of the Holy Orthodox faith, which is truly the responsibility of all Orthodox Christians.

 

elijahmaria

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PeterTheAleut said:
elijahmaria said:
PeterTheAleut said:
elijahmaria said:
Besides...members of Bernard's religious order are perfectly happy to accept what textual evidence they have that he is the author of that particular prayer...so that's good'nuff fer me.  I don't need 20 lay historians to back that up fer me...
We don't care if it's good enough for YOU, Mary. If you're going to try to convince US that what you say is true, the evidence has to be good enough for US.
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.  I don't care that you don't care.  ;)
Then don't ever expect to convince us with your sic Maria dixits and your references to amorphous sources.
Now I have been referenced as amorphous and a jackass today and you know I welcome this kind of critique because it reflects more on the giver than on the receiver, and for that I am grateful to God's goodness and mercy.

So the FACT is that one cannot say with any certitude whether or not Vitis Mystica was written by St. Bonaventure or St. Bernard, which is all that I indicated.  It can be said that the Memorare predated St. Bernard.  It cannot be said, for the moment with any references, that the Rhythmical Prayer was written by St. Bernard or not though there is little evidence against it.

But as Deacon Lance noted, it really makes little difference in terms of the dating of the devotion to the Sacred Heart whether or not it "began" it St. Bernard or St. Bonaventure.  Define "begin"...These two saints would have/could have picked up the devotion from other places and other times.  I posted a link to an article that indicated the ancient character of the devotion, in any event.

So thank you for your insults and your slings and arrows, you Peter and Schultz.  It keeps me alive and alert and happy to serve your spiritual needs.

Blessings,

Mary

 

PeterTheAleut

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elijahmaria said:
PeterTheAleut said:
elijahmaria said:
PeterTheAleut said:
elijahmaria said:
Besides...members of Bernard's religious order are perfectly happy to accept what textual evidence they have that he is the author of that particular prayer...so that's good'nuff fer me.  I don't need 20 lay historians to back that up fer me...
We don't care if it's good enough for YOU, Mary. If you're going to try to convince US that what you say is true, the evidence has to be good enough for US.
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.  I don't care that you don't care.  ;)
Then don't ever expect to convince us with your sic Maria dixits and your references to amorphous sources.
Now I have been referenced as amorphous and a jackass today and you know I welcome this kind of critique because it reflects more on the giver than on the receiver, and for that I am grateful to God's goodness and mercy.

So the FACT is that one cannot say with any certitude whether or not Vitis Mystica was written by St. Bonaventure or St. Bernard, which is all that I indicated.  It can be said that the Memorare predated St. Bernard.  It cannot be said, for the moment with any references, that the Rhythmical Prayer was written by St. Bernard or not though there is little evidence against it.

But as Deacon Lance noted, it really makes little difference in terms of the dating of the devotion to the Sacred Heart whether or not it "began" it St. Bernard or St. Bonaventure.  Define "begin"...These two saints would have/could have picked up the devotion from other places and other times.  I posted a link to an article that indicated the ancient character of the devotion, in any event.

So thank you for your insults and your slings and arrows, you Peter and Schultz.  It keeps me alive and alert and happy to serve your spiritual needs.

Blessings,

Mary
Seeing things again? It wasn't you I called amorphous.
 

PeterTheAleut

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elijahmaria said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Seeing things again? It wasn't you I called amorphous.
You were nasty in your own predictable right, like a shark smelling blood,
Correction: You perceived me as nasty, which may be more a reflection of you than of me. Now, if you want to blame your perception on me, feel free to go right on ahead. I certainly can't stop you. Just don't blame me for refusing to wear that shoe.
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
elijahmaria said:
PeterTheAleut said:
Seeing things again? It wasn't you I called amorphous.
You were nasty in your own predictable right, like a shark smelling blood,
Correction: You perceived me as nasty, which may be more a reflection of you than of me. Now, if you want to blame your perception on me, feel free to go right on ahead. I certainly can't stop you. Just don't blame me for refusing to wear that shoe.
As I said, I keep you in my prayers.
 

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elijahmaria said:
As I said, I keep you in my prayers.
That's like telling someone you'll be sure to pray that they become less of a piece of ****. Not very moving.
 

elijahmaria

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Alveus Lacuna said:
elijahmaria said:
As I said, I keep you in my prayers.
That's like telling someone you'll be sure to pray that they become less of a piece of ****. Not very moving.
Now there is a damning presumption that does not hold.

I happen to be personally fond of both men, Schultz and PtA.  They are younger than I am and have much to learn about things I have already learned, as I have things to learn about things I have not yet learned.

My prayer is that they find in their hearts to have and to demonstrate the same respect for me that I have for them and that they learn much in life in terms of true illumination and joy in the Son of the Living God.

So, you may call me a liar, but you cannot change the prayer.

Blessings,

Mary
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
elijahmaria said:
Besides...members of Bernard's religious order are perfectly happy to accept what textual evidence they have that he is the author of that particular prayer...so that's good'nuff fer me.  I don't need 20 lay historians to back that up fer me...
We don't care if it's good enough for YOU, Mary. If you're going to try to convince US that what you say is true, the evidence has to be good enough for US.
What if she doesn't care that you don't care that she doesn't care that you don't care?
 

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elijahmaria said:
They are younger than I am and have much to learn about things I have already learned, as I have things to learn about things I have not yet learned.

My prayer is that they find in their hearts to have and to demonstrate the same respect for me that I have for them and that they learn much in life in terms of true illumination and joy in the Son of the Living God.
You are a real piece of work!

Oh Lord, I thank thee that thou hast given me a deeper level of respect than the others. That only they might live as I live!

I'll be sure to pray for your shark-like qualities, as I am far older and more experienced in these things than you. You'll understand one day, when the wind of the Spirit carries you to my heights! Your youthful temper will cool, and the tranquil waters of humility will fix you upon such a perfect cross, to have to patiently endure such spurrings from the novices.
 

PeterTheAleut

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Papist said:
PeterTheAleut said:
elijahmaria said:
Besides...members of Bernard's religious order are perfectly happy to accept what textual evidence they have that he is the author of that particular prayer...so that's good'nuff fer me.  I don't need 20 lay historians to back that up fer me...
We don't care if it's good enough for YOU, Mary. If you're going to try to convince US that what you say is true, the evidence has to be good enough for US.
What if she doesn't care that you don't care that she doesn't care that you don't care?
Why don't you ask that question of someone who actually gives a ****. ;)
 

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elijahmaria said:
Can you explain what you mean by "too well developed?"

Are you aware that the Memorare is OLDER than St. Bernard. 

Is the Memorare too well developed as well?
I mean that prayer is full blown Sacred Heart not the beginnings of that devotion in the Wounded Heart one might expect.  As for the Memorare it is not older than St. Bernard.  It was culled from a longer prayer from the 15th century.

http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/BVM/Memorare.html

I would also note that in HAURIETIS AQUAS in the list of saints given credit for starting this devotion St. Bonaventure is listed first, St. Bernard is not even listed.

"94. But for those who wish to touch on the more significant stages of this devotion through the centuries, if we consider outward practice, there immediately occur the names of certain individuals who have won particular renown in this matter as being the advance guard of a form of piety which, privately and very gradually, has gained more and more strength in religious congregations. To cite some examples in establishing this devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and continuously promoting it, great service was rendered by St. Bonaventure, St. Albert the Great, St. Gertrude, St. Catherine of Siena, Blessed Henry Suso, St. Peter Canisius, St. Francis de Sales. St. John Eudes was responsible for the first liturgical office celebrated in honor of the Sacred Heart of Jesus whose solemn feast, with the approval of many Bishops in France, was observed for the first time on October 20th, 1672.

95. But surely the most distinguished place among those who have fostered this most excellent type of devotion is held by St. Margaret Mary Alacoque who, under the spiritual direction of Blessed Claude de la Colombiere who assisted her work, was on fire with an unusual zeal to see to it that the real meaning of the devotion which had had such extensive developments to the great edification of the faithful should be established and be distinguished from other forms of Christian piety by the special qualities of love and reparation.(98)"

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_15051956_haurietis-aquas_en.html
 

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PeterTheAleut said:
Papist said:
PeterTheAleut said:
elijahmaria said:
Besides...members of Bernard's religious order are perfectly happy to accept what textual evidence they have that he is the author of that particular prayer...so that's good'nuff fer me.  I don't need 20 lay historians to back that up fer me...
We don't care if it's good enough for YOU, Mary. If you're going to try to convince US that what you say is true, the evidence has to be good enough for US.
What if she doesn't care that you don't care that she doesn't care that you don't care?
Why don't you ask that question of someone who actually gives a ****. ;)
I don't find it all that funny for a moderator to talk that way.
 

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Deacon Lance said:
elijahmaria said:
Can you explain what you mean by "too well developed?"

Are you aware that the Memorare is OLDER than St. Bernard. 

Is the Memorare too well developed as well?
I mean that prayer is full blown Sacred Heart not the beginnings of that devotion in the Wounded Heart one might expect.  As for the Memorare it is not older than St. Bernard.  It was culled from a longer prayer from the 15th century.

http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/BVM/Memorare.html
You're right.  I skimmed the same article and at one point I read "Saint" Bernard where I should have read "Father Bernard"...

Nevertheless there is NO consensus on whether or not St. Bernard or St. Bonaventure authored the treatise or prayer in question...There simply is not conclusive evidence save for a presumption in the face of textual evidence.
 

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Alveus Lacuna said:
elijahmaria said:
They are younger than I am and have much to learn about things I have already learned, as I have things to learn about things I have not yet learned.

My prayer is that they find in their hearts to have and to demonstrate the same respect for me that I have for them and that they learn much in life in terms of true illumination and joy in the Son of the Living God.
You are a real piece of work!

Oh Lord, I thank thee that thou hast given me a deeper level of respect than the others. That only they might live as I live!

I'll be sure to pray for your shark-like qualities, as I am far older and more experienced in these things than you. You'll understand one day, when the wind of the Spirit carries you to my heights! Your youthful temper will cool, and the tranquil waters of humility will fix you upon such a perfect cross, to have to patiently endure such spurrings from the novices.
Vile presumption
 

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Deacon Lance said:
elijahmaria said:
Can you explain what you mean by "too well developed?"

Are you aware that the Memorare is OLDER than St. Bernard. 

Is the Memorare too well developed as well?
I mean that prayer is full blown Sacred Heart not the beginnings of that devotion in the Wounded Heart one might expect.  As for the Memorare it is not older than St. Bernard.  It was culled from a longer prayer from the 15th century.

http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/BVM/Memorare.html

I would also note that in HAURIETIS AQUAS in the list of saints given credit for starting this devotion St. Bonaventure is listed first, St. Bernard is not even listed.

"94. But for those who wish to touch on the more significant stages of this devotion through the centuries, if we consider outward practice, there immediately occur the names of certain individuals who have won particular renown in this matter as being the advance guard of a form of piety which, privately and very gradually, has gained more and more strength in religious congregations. To cite some examples in establishing this devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and continuously promoting it, great service was rendered by St. Bonaventure, St. Albert the Great, St. Gertrude, St. Catherine of Siena, Blessed Henry Suso, St. Peter Canisius, St. Francis de Sales. St. John Eudes was responsible for the first liturgical office celebrated in honor of the Sacred Heart of Jesus whose solemn feast, with the approval of many Bishops in France, was observed for the first time on October 20th, 1672.

95. But surely the most distinguished place among those who have fostered this most excellent type of devotion is held by St. Margaret Mary Alacoque who, under the spiritual direction of Blessed Claude de la Colombiere who assisted her work, was on fire with an unusual zeal to see to it that the real meaning of the devotion which had had such extensive developments to the great edification of the faithful should be established and be distinguished from other forms of Christian piety by the special qualities of love and reparation.(98)"

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_15051956_haurietis-aquas_en.html
Are you suggesting here that St. Bonaventure sets the initiating precedent for devotion to the Sacred Heart in the long history of the Church?...If you are that does not comport with other parts of the encyclical.
 

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He is the initiator of a distinctive theology for the Sacred Heart devotion.
 

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I apologize for not posting much in this thread even though I started it. My initial questions were answered but since then, things got out of hand.

One last thought. My brother once claimed that St. Dimitri of Rostov said prayers to the Sacred Heart. Has anyone else ever heard of this? I didn't ask where he got this from.
 

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Joseph Hazen said:
If I may jump in rather late,

Aren't we rather missing the point in trying to determine a date for this 'devotion'? Who cares if it was pre- or post-schism? Arius' teachings were all pre-schism, it doesn't make them instantly Orthodox.

The Roman Catholics' schism was not one sudden action that severed their ties with Holy Orthodoxy, it was a series of things culminating in the schism. We should not look at whether or not something existed pre- or post-schism, but whether it is Orthodox or not. It should go without saying that it is only Orthodox themselves who are qualified to make that judgement, and so it is curious that Roman Catholics are so prevalent on a board about Orthodoxy to defend their own actions. This thread on the sacred heart has nothing to do with you, if you want to go to First Friday Masses go do it and let us to determine amongst ourselves what belongs in the future of The Church. For a group who supposedly doesn't care what we do there is certainly a lot of (often vicious, and directed at Clergy no less) rhetoric devoted to it by your side on this thread.

Western Orthodoxy, IMO, should not be about setting the clock back and trying to act as though we're beginning a step in 1053 and ending it in 2011. It must acknowledge the gap and not accept something just because it is Western or pre-schism, but truly filter everything through the lens of Truth. The best of (and I believe in the majority from what I've seen) WRO do just this. Our brothers and sisters in the west began veering away from Orthodoxy long before the schism. Our Western brothers and sisters now should take care, and not fear to reform (while obviously still staying true to their Western patrimony) their current liturgies and practices so as to ensure the security of the Holy Orthodox faith, which is truly the responsibility of all Orthodox Christians.
Bravo!
 

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Andrew21091 said:
I apologize for not posting much in this thread even though I started it. My initial questions were answered but since then, things got out of hand.

One last thought. My brother once claimed that St. Dimitri of Rostov said prayers to the Sacred Heart. Has anyone else ever heard of this? I didn't ask where he got this from.
It's true, and you can read a bit about it in this marvelous essay: http://en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org/6_4

Money quote: "Some Orthodox Fathers are known for the direct influence Catholic spirituality exercised upon them. St Dimitri of Rostov was under this influence for his entire life: his homilies as well as other works, including the Reading Compendium of Saint’s lives, based primarily on Latin sources, have a distinctly “Westernizing” character; St Dimitri’s library held books by Bonaventure, Thomas a Kempis, Peter Canisius and other Catholic authors, and in his spirituality such elements as the devotion of the passions of Christ, the five wounds of Christ and the heart of Christ may be traced."
 
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