the similiarity and difference between Orthodoxy and catholic

Shanghaiski

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Asteriktos said:
walter1234 said:
Is there any written works of  Church father mentioning the purgatory?
Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place.
And where. I don't recall the idea of material created purgatorial fire being an ancient one. And the whole money-making apparatus tied to purgatory was late Medieval.
 

Shanghaiski

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biro said:
Shanghaiski said:
Charles Martel said:
Cyrillic said:
username! said:
They sacked us in Constantinople 1204 A.D. (never forget it).  
"They" sacked "us". *sigh*
"They" were Western and Venetian Crusaders not the Vatican.

And their despicable actions certainly wasn't condoned by the pope.
"I'm shocked, SHOCKED to find that gambling is going on here!"
"Your winnings, sir."
"Oh thank you."
Sigh.

I should have known the OC.net weather pattern would reach its usual conclusion fairly quickly.
Oh, right. History couldn't POSSIBLY have THAT interpretation. Sorry. What was I thinking? I should throw out the scholarly books and just read RC propaganda. Pope Innocent III (who wasn't that innocent) regretted and condemned the sacking, but he accepted the fait accompli. Not even an interdict for Venice, but instead rights and a glorious if ill-fated expansion of papal jurisdiction.
 

Asteriktos

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Shanghaiski said:
I don't recall the idea of material created purgatorial fire being an ancient one
Perhaps, though given my thoughts on materiality I'm not sure. *shrugs*  :)
 

walter1234

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Shanghaiski said:
Asteriktos said:
walter1234 said:
Is there any written works of  Church father mentioning the purgatory?
Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place.
And where. I don't recall the idea of material created purgatorial fire being an ancient one. And the whole money-making apparatus tied to purgatory was late Medieval.
I've heard that Catholic Church used the doctrine of pugatory to make money in late Medieval.People can suffer less in pugatory fire if they donate more money to church.

How about 'Jesus ransoms us from Father'? Was this whole concept completely formed in late Medieval?

And is there any Church father teaching us 'Father showed angry and killed Jesus on cross'?
 

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Shanghaiski said:
Asteriktos said:
walter1234 said:
Is there any written works of  Church father mentioning the purgatory?
Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place.
And where. I don't recall the idea of material created purgatorial fire being an ancient one. And the whole money-making apparatus tied to purgatory was late Medieval.
"When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil." Gregory of Nyssa, Sermon on the Dead, PG 13:445,448 (ante A.D. 394).
 

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Shanghaiski said:
Asteriktos said:
walter1234 said:
Is there any written works of  Church father mentioning the purgatory?
Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place.
And where. I don't recall the idea of material created purgatorial fire being an ancient one. And the whole money-making apparatus tied to purgatory was late Medieval.
The First indulgences were actually granted by the Pope at the request of St Francis of Assisi (and it was for making a pilgrimage to a church).  Indulgences were then granted for visiting the Holy Land, certain prayers etc.


However, it is interesting to note that the "selling" of indulgences was practiced in the East as well except they were called "Absolution certificates"  here is some info on them from an orthodox website
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Absolution_Certificates
 

walter1234

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Do Catholic Christians practice Jesus prayer/prayer of the heart, like Orthodox Christians?
 

Asteriktos

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walter1234 said:
Do Catholic Christians practice Jesus prayer/prayer of the heart, like Orthodox Christians?
Some do, yes. Others do a "centering prayer" thing. Most Catholics probably use other prayers though, such as the rosary.
 

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biro said:
Cyrillic said:
JoeS2 said:
So, this term really doesn't describe what happens at Liturgy but merely a mean of dismissal.....Then why use the term?
Exactly. In the olden days the people just heard some Latin rambling and the only words they knew were "Ite missa est" because that was the sign that you could finally go, so that's what stuck  :p

(I'm just making something up now)
Except for the part where they learned Latin in Catholic school and had booklets with Latin on one page and the local language on the other. Boring stuff like that.  ::) Poor useless Latin, only giving birth to the Romance languages and countless terms in science and law. Silly Italians, can't they go back to putting tomato sauce on everything?
LOL. Are you accusing me of hating Latin?
 

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domNoah said:
Shanghaiski said:
Asteriktos said:
walter1234 said:
Is there any written works of  Church father mentioning the purgatory?
Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place.
And where. I don't recall the idea of material created purgatorial fire being an ancient one. And the whole money-making apparatus tied to purgatory was late Medieval.
The First indulgences were actually granted by the Pope at the request of St Francis of Assisi (and it was for making a pilgrimage to a church).  Indulgences were then granted for visiting the Holy Land, certain prayers etc.


However, it is interesting to note that the "selling" of indulgences was practiced in the East as well except they were called "Absolution certificates"  here is some info on them from an orthodox website
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Absolution_Certificates
Is that Orthodox Church also falled/corrupted, sold absolution certificates for money and taught  that sin can be absolved by these certificates in 16 -18century?
 

Cyrillic

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walter1234 said:
Is that Orthodox Church also falled/corrupted, sold absolution certificates for money and taught  that sin can be absoluted by these certificates in 16 -18century?
...

sigh
 

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Cyrillic said:
walter1234 said:
Is that Orthodox Church also falled/corrupted, sold absolution certificates for money and taught  that sin can be absoluted by these certificates in 16 -18century?
...

sigh
Orthodox Church teaches infallible Church ....???

INFALLIBLE ? :'(
 

Cyrillic

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walter1234 said:
Cyrillic said:
walter1234 said:
Is that Orthodox Church also falled/corrupted, sold absolution certificates for money and taught  that sin can be absoluted by these certificates in 16 -18century?
...

sigh
Orthodox Church teaches infallible Church ....???

INFALLIBLE ? :'(
Even if indulgences were/are wrong that doesn't change the fact that it has nothing to do with the infallibility of the Church. You don't discern between faith and praxis. If the Orthodox Church called a crusade and killed a puppy those things wouldn't have disprove her claim to infallibilty at all.
 

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Infallibility? What's it good for? Absolutely nothin'! Uh-huh!
 

walter1234

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Cyrillic said:
walter1234 said:
Cyrillic said:
walter1234 said:
Is that Orthodox Church also falled/corrupted, sold absolution certificates for money and taught  that sin can be absoluted by these certificates in 16 -18century?
...

sigh
Orthodox Church teaches infallible Church ....???

INFALLIBLE ? :'(
Even if indulgences were/are wrong (something I do not say) it doesn't change the fact that it has nothing to do with the infallibility of the Church. You don't discern between faith and praxis. If the Orthodox Church would have called a crusade or killed a puppy wouldn't have disproven her claim to infallibilty at all.
Sin can be absolved by indulgence...
This faith is absolutely wrong...
 

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Cyrillic said:
You don't discern between faith and praxis.
Praxis also should be ortho. And in this case teachings were also incorrect. The Church however later corrected Her mistake.
 

Cyrillic

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Need I remind y'all the Decian persecutions and the indulgences granted by the martyrs?

"That they who have received a certificate from the martyrs, and can be assisted by their help with the Lord in respect of their sins, if they begin to be oppressed with any sickness or risk; when they have made confession, and have received the imposition of hands on them by you in acknowledgment of their penitence, should be remitted to the Lord with the peace promised to them by the martyrs.(St. Cyprian of Carthage, epistle 13)"

A libellus - as those certificates were then called - and an indulgence is pretty much the same. Even Patriarch Dositheos of Jerusalem said that indulgences were an ancient and venerable tradition. I'm not sure whether selling it is a pretty good idea, though,
 

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To the general topic here are some things that deserve mention

1) Ecclesiastical Divorce
2) Birth Control
3) Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation
4) Our views on Mystical Visions and Apparitions

 

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domNoah said:
1) Ecclesiastical Divorce
2) Birth Control
3) Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation
4) Our views on Mystical Visions and Apparitions
1 has been done in the Churches of the East since long before the schism.

3 is a local Latin lower-t tradition.

What about 4, though? Those apparitions are optional to believe even for Latin Catholics, right?
 

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walter1234 said:
Sin can be absolved by indulgence...
This faith is absolutely wrong...
Walter, I'm not Orthodox but their faith is NOT "absolutely wrong"!!! It is most definitely the oldest and most reliably "right" of Christendom!

I can't help wondering if you're just looking for reasons to reject them (as well as my own less reliable but still venerable church)?

Don't throw away all your respect for the Faith based on a few mistakes some individual Christians in the past may have made!
 

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Cyrillic said:
Need I remind y'all the Decian persecutions and the indulgences granted by the martyrs?

"That they who have received a certificate from the martyrs, and can be assisted by their help with the Lord in respect of their sins, if they begin to be oppressed with any sickness or risk; when they have made confession, and have received the imposition of hands on them by you in acknowledgment of their penitence, should be remitted to the Lord with the peace promised to them by the martyrs.(St. Cyprian of Carthage, epistle 13)"

A libellus - as those certificates were then called - and an indulgence is pretty much the same. Even Patriarch Dositheos of Jerusalem said that indulgences were an ancient and venerable tradition. I'm not sure whether selling it is a pretty good idea, though,
Do you mean that indulgences was orginally used to honor the martyrs and remind us to made confession, but it later turn as a commodities of Church?
 

Cyrillic

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walter1234 said:
Cyrillic said:
Need I remind y'all the Decian persecutions and the indulgences granted by the martyrs?

"That they who have received a certificate from the martyrs, and can be assisted by their help with the Lord in respect of their sins, if they begin to be oppressed with any sickness or risk; when they have made confession, and have received the imposition of hands on them by you in acknowledgment of their penitence, should be remitted to the Lord with the peace promised to them by the martyrs.(St. Cyprian of Carthage, epistle 13)"

A libellus - as those certificates were then called - and an indulgence is pretty much the same. Even Patriarch Dositheos of Jerusalem said that indulgences were an ancient and venerable tradition. I'm not sure whether selling it is a pretty good idea, though,
Do you mean that indulgences was orginally used to honor the martyrs and remind us to made confession, but it later turn as a commodities of Church?
Yes, something like that. Before the martyrs died they sometimes gave a libellus - or indulgence - to the surviving faithful. Sometimes even to people who had lapsed in the persecution. With a libellus their penance was remitted (indulgences do not forgive sins but remit penances) and they were accepted back to communion. The martyrs didn't sell those libelli, AFAIK.
 

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Cyrillic said:
domNoah said:
1) Ecclesiastical Divorce
2) Birth Control
3) Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation
4) Our views on Mystical Visions and Apparitions
1 has been done in the Churches of the East since long before the schism.

3 is a local Latin lower-t tradition.

What about 4, though? Those apparitions are optional to believe even for Latin Catholics, right?
I would like to see your sources for 1, I am aware of the churches in the east allowing separation but not remarriage.  In fact the current discipline on divorce observed in the East is rather current (more than just adultery is considered).

3.  We do not view Sundays and Holy Days as being little t tradition.  In the west we attribute it to the Apostolic Constitutions and coming from the Apostles.

4.  I was referring to our approaches and how they differ, it was my understanding that the East view revelations as being a more private matter that should not be shared, in the west we often do keep the mystical revelations private till after the death of the individual but then if they do not contain error they can be promulgated.
 

walter1234

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Cyrillic said:
walter1234 said:
Cyrillic said:
Need I remind y'all the Decian persecutions and the indulgences granted by the martyrs?

"That they who have received a certificate from the martyrs, and can be assisted by their help with the Lord in respect of their sins, if they begin to be oppressed with any sickness or risk; when they have made confession, and have received the imposition of hands on them by you in acknowledgment of their penitence, should be remitted to the Lord with the peace promised to them by the martyrs.(St. Cyprian of Carthage, epistle 13)"

A libellus - as those certificates were then called - and an indulgence is pretty much the same. Even Patriarch Dositheos of Jerusalem said that indulgences were an ancient and venerable tradition. I'm not sure whether selling it is a pretty good idea, though,
Do you mean that indulgences was orginally used to honor the martyrs and remind us to made confession, but it later turn as a commodities of Church?
Yes, something like that. Before the martyrs died they sometimes gave a libellus - or indulgence - to the surviving faithful. Sometimes even to people who had lapsed in the persecution. With a libellus their penance was remitted (indulgences do not forgive sins but remit penances) and they were accepted back to communion. The martyrs didn't sell those libelli, AFAIK.
As what I know , The Pope/ Catholic Church can run countries and always have fightings in the Crusades War in medieval. The Catholic Church should always have the financial problem. Is it that Catholic Church turned the indulgence as a commodity in order to resolve its financial problem?

And did Orthodox Church turn absolution Certificate as a commodity, like Catholic Church?
 

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walter1234 said:
Cyrillic said:
walter1234 said:
Cyrillic said:
Need I remind y'all the Decian persecutions and the indulgences granted by the martyrs?

"That they who have received a certificate from the martyrs, and can be assisted by their help with the Lord in respect of their sins, if they begin to be oppressed with any sickness or risk; when they have made confession, and have received the imposition of hands on them by you in acknowledgment of their penitence, should be remitted to the Lord with the peace promised to them by the martyrs.(St. Cyprian of Carthage, epistle 13)"

A libellus - as those certificates were then called - and an indulgence is pretty much the same. Even Patriarch Dositheos of Jerusalem said that indulgences were an ancient and venerable tradition. I'm not sure whether selling it is a pretty good idea, though,
Do you mean that indulgences was orginally used to honor the martyrs and remind us to made confession, but it later turn as a commodities of Church?
Yes, something like that. Before the martyrs died they sometimes gave a libellus - or indulgence - to the surviving faithful. Sometimes even to people who had lapsed in the persecution. With a libellus their penance was remitted (indulgences do not forgive sins but remit penances) and they were accepted back to communion. The martyrs didn't sell those libelli, AFAIK.
As what I know , The Pope/ Catholic Church can run countries and always have fightings in the Crusades War in medieval. The Catholic Church should always have the financial problem. Is it that Catholic Church turned the indulgence as a commodity in order to resolve its financial problem?

And did Orthodox Church turn absolution Certificate as a commodity, like Catholic Church?
Most of the abuses with Indulgences where just that abuses, they did not have approval of the Catholic Church.  To answer your question though it was not because of the fighting of the crusades, the money was raised often times for the building of churches or for the relief of the poor (like Peters Pence).
 

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walter1234 said:
Cyrillic said:
walter1234 said:
And did Orthodox Church turn absolution Certificate as a commodity, like Catholic Church?
No, but some bishops did.
I see, Just some bishops, not the church as a whole did.
The Orthodox Communions do not have central leadership like the Roman Catholic Church, you must remember that Orthodox practicing inter communion has not always happened.  There is no Eastern Orthodox Pope, saying what the whole Orthodox Church is going to allow or not allow.  Sense the bishop holds primacy in his diocese if they sold indulgences then the Orthodox Church in that diocese approved of the selling of indulgences.
 

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domNoah said:
I would like to see your sources for 1, I am aware of the churches in the east allowing separation but not remarriage.  In fact the current discipline on divorce observed in the East is rather current (more than just adultery is considered).
The Moechian controversy of Leo VI the Wise. He was granted three marriages but the fourth was seen as adultry. When he married for the fourth time anyway he incurred the condemnation of the Patriarch and the eastern bishops but the Pope of Rome was so nice as to approve of it when he sent the emperor a dispensation.

domNoah said:
3.  We do not view Sundays and Holy Days as being little t tradition.  In the west we attribute it to the Apostolic Constitutions and coming from the Apostles.
Emphasis added. Thanks for confirming my point.

domNoah said:
Most of the abuses with Indulgences where just that abuses, they did not have approval of the Catholic Church.
This. The Council of Trent condemned such abuses.

 

Asteriktos

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Does the Catholic Church accept all the Apostolic Constitutions as authoritative, or only part of them as the Orthodox Church does?
 

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domNoah said:
The Orthodox Communions do not have central leadership like the Roman Catholic Church, you must remember that Orthodox practicing inter communion has not always happened.  There is no Eastern Orthodox Pope, saying what the whole Orthodox Church is going to allow or not allow.
Really?

 

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Shanghaiski said:
Asteriktos said:
walter1234 said:
Is there any written works of  Church father mentioning the purgatory?
Many early Fathers speak of a purging or cleansing after death, though there were/are different opinions as to how this takes place.
And where. I don't recall the idea of material created purgatorial fire being an ancient one. And the whole money-making apparatus tied to purgatory was late Medieval.
I don't recall "material created purgatorial fire" being dogma. The way I've heard it explained is that the cleansing fire of purgatory is God Himself.
 

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Wyatt said:
I don't recall "material created purgatorial fire" being dogma. The way I've heard it explained is that the cleansing fire of purgatory is God Himself.
Wasn't it denied at Florence that the Latins meant a literal fire with purgatory?
 

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Michał Kalina said:
domNoah said:
The Orthodox Communions do not have central leadership like the Roman Catholic Church, you must remember that Orthodox practicing inter communion has not always happened.  There is no Eastern Orthodox Pope, saying what the whole Orthodox Church is going to allow or not allow.
Really?

Are you saying that our Lord Jesus Christ is the author of the disunity between the Orthodox on their own disciplines?
 

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domNoah said:
Michał Kalina said:
domNoah said:
The Orthodox Communions do not have central leadership like the Roman Catholic Church, you must remember that Orthodox practicing inter communion has not always happened.  There is no Eastern Orthodox Pope, saying what the whole Orthodox Church is going to allow or not allow.
Really?

Are you saying that our Lord Jesus Christ is the author of the disunity between the Orthodox on their own disciplines?
I'm saying He is Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church.
 

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Cyrillic said:
Wyatt said:
I don't recall "material created purgatorial fire" being dogma. The way I've heard it explained is that the cleansing fire of purgatory is God Himself.
Wasn't it denied at Florence that the Latins meant a literal fire with purgatory?
It's quite possible. I would have to read up on it because I am not sure. I know that in Pope Benedict XVI's encyclical Spe Salvi, he mentions that the cleansing fire of purgatory is Christ himself.
 

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- Of course it's a material purging/cleansing. What else could it be?  :angel:

- What "disunity between the Orthodox on their own disciplines"? Things like contraception?

- Regarding Florence, St. Mark of Ephesus certainly attributed that position to them.
 

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Cyrillic said:
domNoah said:
I would like to see your sources for 1, I am aware of the churches in the east allowing separation but not remarriage.  In fact the current discipline on divorce observed in the East is rather current (more than just adultery is considered).
The Moechian controversy of Leo VI the Wise. He was granted three marriages but the fourth was seen as adultry. When he married for the fourth time anyway he incurred the condemnation of the Patriarch and the eastern bishops but the Pope of Rome was so nice as to approve of it when he sent the emperor a dispensation.

domNoah said:
3.  We do not view Sundays and Holy Days as being little t tradition.  In the west we attribute it to the Apostolic Constitutions and coming from the Apostles.
Emphasis added. Thanks for confirming my point.

domNoah said:
Most of the abuses with Indulgences where just that abuses, they did not have approval of the Catholic Church.
This. The Council of Trent condemned such abuses.
I was speaking in the context of the thread, the question was what are the differences between the East and the West, the Sunday Obligation is clearly a difference.  We believe it is part of big T tradition, you don't.

As far as the Moechian controversy of Leo VI the Wise

1)  First Marriage (wife died)
2)  Second Marriage (wife died)
3)  Third Marriage (wife died)
4)  Fourth Marriage


What does that have to do with Ecclesiastical Divorce?  In the west we don't put a limit on the number or marriages (I guess that is another difference between us) and not only that it shows that the Pope was appealed to as the authority in settling the dispute between him and the Patriarch.
 
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