the similiarity and difference between Orthodoxy and catholic

domNoah

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Michał Kalina said:
domNoah said:
Michał Kalina said:
domNoah said:
The Orthodox Communions do not have central leadership like the Roman Catholic Church, you must remember that Orthodox practicing inter communion has not always happened.  There is no Eastern Orthodox Pope, saying what the whole Orthodox Church is going to allow or not allow.
Really?

Are you saying that our Lord Jesus Christ is the author of the disunity between the Orthodox on their own disciplines?
I'm saying He is Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church.
In the context of my previous statement, you do not believe Christ has a vicar on earth that speaks with absolute authority like we Catholics do.  Pinning down Orthodox theology and discipline is like trying to pin down a tomato seed on your plate.

Jesus is not the author of confusion that exists on birth control in your own ranks. While most Catholics are bad on Birth Control there is no confusion at a theological level that it is wrong and the discussion on it is closed.
 

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domNoah said:
I was speaking in the context of the thread, the question was what are the differences between the East and the West, the Sunday Obligation is clearly a difference.  We believe it is part of big T tradition, you don't.
Do the EC's even have a sunday obligation? How far back does this specific canon go even for the Latin Church?

Asteriktos said:
- Regarding Florence, St. Mark of Ephesus certainly attributed that position to them.
Wasn't he the same guy who said, at Florence, that every work of the Latin Church Fathers was full of interpolations or else spurious altogether? I'd take everything he said about Latin theology with a huge grain of salt.
 

Asteriktos

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Aww, and I like you. Why do you make me disagree so soon?

domNoah said:
Jesus is not the author of confusion that exists on birth control in your own ranks. While most Catholics are bad on Birth Control there is no confusion at a theological level that it is wrong and the discussion on it is closed.
Except that the Roman Catholic writer John Noonan shows (rightly) than NFP would have been considered contraception by the early Fathers. And lets not do a "No True Scotsman" argument either -- "oh, if this Noonan fellow were a real Catholic he'd not have said that".  Noonan wrote one of the best studies on the subject in English, but the facts are fairly simple: the early Church Fathers didn't use all sorts of distinctions to allow for a certain kind of birth control; if you went about your sex life in such a way as to increase the chances of avoiding procreation then you were using contraception. Of course, admittedly, this is very similar to divorce and remarriage, so at least Catholics are consistent.  ;D
 

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Cyrillic said:
Wasn't he the same guy who said, at Florence, that every work of the Latin Church Fathers was full of interpolations or else spurious altogether? I'd take everything he said about Latin theology with a huge grain of salt.
I don't recall... but seeing as how he was the only major figure (that I can recall, anyway) who stood in the way of union, and led the fight afterwards, let's not dismiss him so quickly...?  :angel:
 

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Asteriktos said:
Cyrillic said:
Wasn't he the same guy who said, at Florence, that every work of the Latin Church Fathers was full of interpolations or else spurious altogether? I'd take everything he said about Latin theology with a huge grain of salt.
I don't recall...
It's written on many scrolls in his icons.

 

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Asteriktos said:
Cyrillic said:
It's written on many scrolls in his icons.
It's all Greek to me...  ;)
That's what St. Mark of Ephesus must have said when the works of the Latin fathers were presented to him  ;)

Asteriktos said:
Aww, and I like you. Why do you make me disagree so soon?

domNoah said:
Jesus is not the author of confusion that exists on birth control in your own ranks. While most Catholics are bad on Birth Control there is no confusion at a theological level that it is wrong and the discussion on it is closed.
Except that the Roman Catholic writer John Noonan shows (rightly) than NFP would have been considered contraception by the early Fathers. And lets not do a "No True Scotsman" argument either -- "oh, if this Noonan fellow were a real Catholic he'd not have said that".  Noonan wrote one of the best studies on the subject in English, but the facts are fairly simple: the early Church Fathers didn't use all sorts of distinctions to allow for a certain kind of birth control; if you went about your sex life in such a way as to increase the chances of avoiding procreation then you were using contraception. Of course, admittedly, this is very similar to divorce and remarriage, so at least Catholics are consistent.  ;D
Allowing NFP does indeed sound quite hypocritical.
 

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Asteriktos said:
Aww, and I like you. Why do you make me disagree so soon?

domNoah said:
Jesus is not the author of confusion that exists on birth control in your own ranks. While most Catholics are bad on Birth Control there is no confusion at a theological level that it is wrong and the discussion on it is closed.
Except that the Roman Catholic writer John Noonan shows (rightly) than NFP would have been considered contraception by the early Fathers. And lets not do a "No True Scotsman" argument either -- "oh, if this Noonan fellow were a real Catholic he'd not have said that".  Noonan wrote one of the best studies on the subject in English, but the facts are fairly simple: the early Church Fathers didn't use all sorts of distinctions to allow for a certain kind of birth control; if you went about your sex life in such a way as to increase the chances of avoiding procreation then you were using contraception. Of course, admittedly, this is very similar to divorce and remarriage, so at least Catholics are consistent.  ;D
First I would like to say that to use NFP without a grave reason is a grave/mortal sin.

NFP is not at the same level of using Artificial methods of Birth Control because the essence of the act of martial relations is not frustrated. It is not sinful for a married couple to have relations during times of the month when the women is less likely to become pregnant.  It can be a mortal sin if the primary end of doing it is evil (selfishness, greed), not avoiding some evil (another child reducing the couple to abject poverty, government forced abortion, frail health of the women etc)

Divine revelation in Genesis 38 shows that God however harshly punishes any attempts to frustrate procreation by the spilling of seed, which in essence is what the use of condemns does.  It appears to break the natural law, because the essence of the marital act is for the man to put seed in the women which can result in a pregnancy.  The Catholic Church has always been consistent in its condemnation of the spilling of seed and of birth control.  NFP is an allowance  because the couple still copulates in a manner that still allows for pregnancy to happen and does not involve the loss of seed.

To my knowledge the Orthodox communions initially supported Paul VI Humane Vitae, but later in 2000 the Russian Synod allowed condoms.  However, I would describe what I have observed from being an outsider that there is harsh tension in the Orthodox community over the sinfulness of the act and to what degree it is a sin.  You have a local pastor in my area Father Josiah Trenham (Antiochian Orthodox St Andrews Riverside) who absolutely condemns any form of birth control, and to my knowledge I know Bishop Hilarion also is opposed to birth control.  Everyone one else is either silent or invokes "economia".

My point when I said that our Lord Jesus Christ is not the author of this confusion was to point out that in the Catholic Church the Pope has ruled definitively on the matter that all forms of artificial contraception are evil.  So it is safe to say the Catholic Church opposes artificial birth control, but you cannot say the Orthodox allows artificial birth control nor the Orthodox condemns artificial birth control because many voices without any absolute authority say different things.

SN I would be interested in a citation from the book Noonan wrote were he concludes that periodic continence would have been condemned by all the early fathers.  I am aware of some of the strict writings from the Fathers on matters like relations during Pregnancy and some of their very harsh comments about marriage but I would like to know more.


 

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Cyrillic said:
domNoah said:
I was speaking in the context of the thread, the question was what are the differences between the East and the West, the Sunday Obligation is clearly a difference.  We believe it is part of big T tradition, you don't.
Do the EC's even have a sunday obligation? How far back does this specific canon go even for the Latin Church?

Asteriktos said:
- Regarding Florence, St. Mark of Ephesus certainly attributed that position to them.
Wasn't he the same guy who said, at Florence, that every work of the Latin Church Fathers was full of interpolations or else spurious altogether? I'd take everything he said about Latin theology with a huge grain of salt.
As a discipline it goes back to the Apostles, I would have to look up how far the Canon goes back.  Eastern Catholics do have the Sunday Obligation requirement because it is one of the 6 precepts of the Church that all Catholics must obey.  I believe they have certain allowances granted (such as I think they are allowed to attend a Vespers service as an alternative to Divine Liturgy though I do not know for sure).
 

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domNoah,

Thank you for your well thought out post. I think you make particularly good points about things being definitive in Catholicism and unclear in Orthodoxy. I will (hopefully) come back tomorrow and post a bit more, but for right now I'll provide a couple quotes from Noonan. I no longer have the book in question, so I'm stuck with what little I typed into a notepad file, but fwiw here's what I found that might be relevant...

"'Contraception is a term which could be applied to any behavior that prevents conception. Sexual continence is contraceptive in effect; sexual intercourse when an ovum will not be fertilized avoids procreation as much as intercourse where a physical barrier is used to prevent the meeting of spermatozoa and ovum." - John T. Noonan, Contraception: A History of Its Treatment By the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, (Harvard University Press, 1965), p. 1

"In addition to these three chemical or mechanical ways of blocking conception, there was belief in a sterile period for women... Indeed, the first of the several contraceptive measures which Soranos prescribes is avoidance of 'sexual intercourse at those periods which we said were suitable for conception' (Gynecology 1.19.61)" - John T. Noonan, Contraception: A History of Its Treatment By the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, (Harvard University Press, 1965), p. 16

"The method of contraception practiced by these Manichees whom Augustine knew is the use of the sterile period as determined by Greek medicine... In the history of the thought of theologians on contraception, it is, no doubt, piquant that the first pronouncement on contraception by the most influential theologian teaching on such matters should be such a vigorous attack on the one method of avoiding procreation accepted by twentieth-century Catholic theologians as morally lawful." - John T. Noonan, Contraception: A History of Its Treatment By the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, (Harvard University Press, 1965), p. 120

"...once married, one may not avoid children. It is lawless and shameful to lie with one's wife where the conception of offspring is avoided: 'This is what Onan, the son of Juda, did, and God killed him for it.' You may marry to give an outlet to your incontinence, 'but you ought not to temper your evil so that you exterminate the good of marriage, that is, the propagation of children' (Augustine, Adulterous Marriages, 2, 12, 12)" - John T. Noonan, Contraception: A History of Its Treatment By the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, (Harvard University Press, 1965), p. 137
 

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domNoah said:
walter1234 said:
Cyrillic said:
walter1234 said:
And did Orthodox Church turn absolution Certificate as a commodity, like Catholic Church?
No, but some bishops did.
I see, Just some bishops, not the church as a whole did.
The Orthodox Communions do not have central leadership like the Roman Catholic Church, you must remember that Orthodox practicing inter communion has not always happened.  There is no Eastern Orthodox Pope, saying what the whole Orthodox Church is going to allow or not allow.  Sense the bishop holds primacy in his diocese if they sold indulgences then the Orthodox Church in that diocese approved of the selling of indulgences.
I don't think the views, teachings or approval of some falliable bishops can represent the whole Orthodox Church.
 

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Do Catholic christians believe church is infallible ,like Orthodoxy ?
 

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Cyrillic said:
walter1234 said:
Do Catholic christians believe church is infallible ,like Orthodoxy ?
Yes.
How do they explain their mistakes which made in medieval,e.g power struggle between pope and emperors  ,killed the Jews,crusades wars,etc?

Its faith and doctrines also keep changing , how do they explain?

I remember Catholic church even murdered the scientists who claimed the earth is in circle/oval shape in medieval when I learned history in college.(the faith that  built upon the Science....)
 

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walter1234 said:
Cyrillic said:
walter1234 said:
Do Catholic christians believe church is infallible ,like Orthodoxy ?
Yes.
How do they explain their mistakes which made in medieval,e.g power struggle between pope and emperors  ,killed the Jews,crusades wars,etc?
Because they (and the Orthodox) claim to be infallible only in matters of faith.
 

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Cyrillic said:
walter1234 said:
Cyrillic said:
walter1234 said:
Do Catholic christians believe church is infallible ,like Orthodoxy ?
Yes.
How do they explain their mistakes which made in medieval,e.g power struggle between pope and emperors  ,killed the Jews,crusades wars,etc?
Because they (and the Orthodox) claim to be infallible only in matters of faith.
What do you mean only in matter of faith?
You mean infallible Church is not true (at least  history proves it),it is  only a claiming in orthodox and Catholic? :eek:
 

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walter1234 said:
Cyrillic said:
walter1234 said:
Cyrillic said:
walter1234 said:
Do Catholic christians believe church is infallible ,like Orthodoxy ?
Yes.
How do they explain their mistakes which made in medieval,e.g power struggle between pope and emperors  ,killed the Jews,crusades wars,etc?
Because they (and the Orthodox) claim to be infallible only in matters of faith.
What do you mean only in matter of faith?
You mean infallible Church is not truth (in history),it is  only a claim in orthodox and Catholic? :eek:
*sigh*

Claiming that the Church is infallible in its doctrinal pronouncements isn't the same as saying that no individual bishop, priest or deacon did anything wrong ever.
 

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Cyrillic said:
walter1234 said:
Cyrillic said:
walter1234 said:
Cyrillic said:
walter1234 said:
Do Catholic christians believe church is infallible ,like Orthodoxy ?
Yes.
How do they explain their mistakes which made in medieval,e.g power struggle between pope and emperors  ,killed the Jews,crusades wars,etc?
Because they (and the Orthodox) claim to be infallible only in matters of faith.
What do you mean only in matter of faith?
You mean infallible Church is not truth (in history),it is  only a claim in orthodox and Catholic? :eek:
*sigh*

Claiming that the Church is infallible in its doctrinal pronouncements isn't the same as saying that no individual bishop, priest or deacon did anything wrong ever.
To be honest , to me, Protestant's teaching of fallible church seems more accurate. (at least the history can prove it)... :'(
 

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walter1234 said:
To be honest , to me, Protestant's teaching of fallible church seems more accurate. (at least the history can prove it)... :'(
Argh...

"And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. (Matthew 16:18)"

I think you just don't want to understand it.
 

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walter1234 said:
But how to explain those corrupted history in Church..... :-\
Because the Church claims that it infallible in its dogmatic pronouncement, not so much in other matters. The Church claims that it infallibly decreed things like the Nicene and Chalcedonian creeds or the horos of the Seventh Ecumenical Council. It doesn't claim to be infallible outside of those things. The Church doesn't claim, for example, to be infallible in maths or in politics.
 

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Cyrillic said:
walter1234 said:
But how to explain those corrupted history in Church..... :-\
Because the Church claims that it infallible in its dogmatic pronouncement, not so much in other matters. The Church claims that it infallibly decreed things like the Nicene and Chalcedonian creeds or the horos of the Seventh Ecumenical Council. It doesn't claim to be infallible outside of those things. The Church doesn't claim, for example, to be infallible in maths or in politics.
That means church only does not fall about its faith and doctrine ?
 

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walter1234 said:
Cyrillic said:
walter1234 said:
But how to explain those corrupted history in Church..... :-\
Because the Church claims that it infallible in its dogmatic pronouncement, not so much in other matters. The Church claims that it infallibly decreed things like the Nicene and Chalcedonian creeds or the horos of the Seventh Ecumenical Council. It doesn't claim to be infallible outside of those things. The Church doesn't claim, for example, to be infallible in maths or in politics.
That means church only do not fall about its faith and doctrine ?
Yes, that's what I was trying to say all along.
 

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And the faith and doctrines in orthodoxy have never changed for nearly 2000 years, so it is the only Infallible Church of God?
 

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Michał Kalina said:
walter1234 said:
And the faith and doctrines in orthodoxy have never changed for nearly 2000 years, so it is the only Infallible Church of God?
Bingo.
I am trying to wrap my head around your agreement when we have just be discussing the departure from the teaching on martial relationships from that of the Fathers. Marriage is a sacrament, should not the teaching on it be consistent?
 

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Asteriktos said:
domNoah,

Thank you for your well thought out post. I think you make particularly good points about things being definitive in Catholicism and unclear in Orthodoxy. I will (hopefully) come back tomorrow and post a bit more, but for right now I'll provide a couple quotes from Noonan. I no longer have the book in question, so I'm stuck with what little I typed into a notepad file, but fwiw here's what I found that might be relevant...

"'Contraception is a term which could be applied to any behavior that prevents conception. Sexual continence is contraceptive in effect; sexual intercourse when an ovum will not be fertilized avoids procreation as much as intercourse where a physical barrier is used to prevent the meeting of spermatozoa and ovum." - John T. Noonan, Contraception: A History of Its Treatment By the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, (Harvard University Press, 1965), p. 1

"In addition to these three chemical or mechanical ways of blocking conception, there was belief in a sterile period for women... Indeed, the first of the several contraceptive measures which Soranos prescribes is avoidance of 'sexual intercourse at those periods which we said were suitable for conception' (Gynecology 1.19.61)" - John T. Noonan, Contraception: A History of Its Treatment By the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, (Harvard University Press, 1965), p. 16

"The method of contraception practiced by these Manichees whom Augustine knew is the use of the sterile period as determined by Greek medicine... In the history of the thought of theologians on contraception, it is, no doubt, piquant that the first pronouncement on contraception by the most influential theologian teaching on such matters should be such a vigorous attack on the one method of avoiding procreation accepted by twentieth-century Catholic theologians as morally lawful." - John T. Noonan, Contraception: A History of Its Treatment By the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, (Harvard University Press, 1965), p. 120

"...once married, one may not avoid children. It is lawless and shameful to lie with one's wife where the conception of offspring is avoided: 'This is what Onan, the son of Juda, did, and God killed him for it.' You may marry to give an outlet to your incontinence, 'but you ought not to temper your evil so that you exterminate the good of marriage, that is, the propagation of children' (Augustine, Adulterous Marriages, 2, 12, 12)" - John T. Noonan, Contraception: A History of Its Treatment By the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, (Harvard University Press, 1965), p. 137
Cheers My Friend, :)

I was definitely aware of Augustine teaching, though on sexual matters he is one of the harshest Fathers, including casting quite a harsh glance at relations when the women is pregnant, or when a couple is elderly.

I remember reading an article a while ago, about the Patristics on this matter and they also almost exclusively used Augustine, that is why I was curious if other Fathers weighed in on the matter.

It is important to remember though that while NFP is often sold as "just as good or better then ABC" by those obnoxious pseudo apostles of NFP in the Roman Catholic Church the fact remaining is this, it is absolutely possible to become pregnant while using NFP, and that if it is being done for the avoidance of children as the primary end not the avoidance of some evil (Desitituion, forced abortion, a women in frail health) then it is still a grave/mortal sin.


It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing.  To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."



 

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domNoah said:
To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."
???

That's scary.
 

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Cyrillic said:
domNoah said:
It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing.  To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."
???
Well, I'm going to Hell.
 

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biro said:
Cyrillic said:
domNoah said:
It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing.  To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."
???
Well, I'm going to Hell.
That's cool.

Naw biro, you're not going to hell. Much rather I.

 

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biro said:
Cyrillic said:
domNoah said:
It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing.  To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."
???
Well, I'm going to Hell.
If you do, I'll be with you, biro!  ;D

God didn't send me any children, and now it's too late.  :(

So I'll just have to rely on His mercy instead of my faulty fertility.  8)
 

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theistgal said:
biro said:
Cyrillic said:
domNoah said:
It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing.  To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."
???
Well, I'm going to Hell.
If you do, I'll be with you, biro!  ;D

God didn't send me any children, and now it's too late.  :(

So I'll just have to rely on His mercy instead of my faulty fertility.  8)
God gave you your fertility, he only punishes those who do not use/or abuse the gifts he gave them.
 

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biro said:
Cyrillic said:
domNoah said:
It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing.  To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."
???
Well, I'm going to Hell.
Despair is an unforgivable sin, repent.
 

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domNoah said:
biro said:
Cyrillic said:
domNoah said:
It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing.  To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."
???
Well, I'm going to Hell.
Despair is an unforgivable sin, repent.
I can't tell whether you're serious or not. Since it's Christmas, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Ho ho ho!  8)
 

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domNoah said:
biro said:
Cyrillic said:
domNoah said:
It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing.  To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."
???
Well, I'm going to Hell.
Despair is an unforgivable sin, repent.

And here I thought the only *unforgivable* sin was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.  Besides, on the face of it, you can't really tell if Biro was just making a statement or was, in fact, truly despairing.

It'd be interesting to see the exact words of St. John Vianny (with citation), especially in the context that he said them, rather than a paraphrase.
 

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walter1234 said:
Cyrillic said:
walter1234 said:
Cyrillic said:
walter1234 said:
Cyrillic said:
walter1234 said:
Do Catholic christians believe church is infallible ,like Orthodoxy ?
Yes.
How do they explain their mistakes which made in medieval,e.g power struggle between pope and emperors  ,killed the Jews,crusades wars,etc?
Because they (and the Orthodox) claim to be infallible only in matters of faith.
What do you mean only in matter of faith?
You mean infallible Church is not truth (in history),it is  only a claim in orthodox and Catholic? :eek:
*sigh*

Claiming that the Church is infallible in its doctrinal pronouncements isn't the same as saying that no individual bishop, priest or deacon did anything wrong ever.
To be honest , to me, Protestant's teaching of fallible church seems more accurate. (at least the history can prove it)... :'(
People are fallible.  People make mistakes, even the Pope and other bishops.  People are the weakness.  The Church itself is not fallible.
 

Kerdy

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Cyrillic said:
domNoah said:
To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."
???

That's scary.
Perhaps this is in relation to women who purposely lost their children.  I don’t know, just guessing.
 

Kerdy

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domNoah said:
theistgal said:
biro said:
Cyrillic said:
domNoah said:
It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing.  To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."
???
Well, I'm going to Hell.
If you do, I'll be with you, biro!  ;D

God didn't send me any children, and now it's too late.  :(

So I'll just have to rely on His mercy instead of my faulty fertility.  8)
God gave you your fertility, he only punishes those who do not use/or abuse the gifts he gave them.
I think I guessed wrong in my previous post.
 

Kerdy

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J Michael said:
domNoah said:
biro said:
Cyrillic said:
domNoah said:
It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing.  To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."
???
Well, I'm going to Hell.
Despair is an unforgivable sin, repent.

And here I thought the only *unforgivable* sin was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.   Besides, on the face of it, you can't really tell if Biro was just making a statement or was, in fact, truly despairing.

It'd be interesting to see the exact words of St. John Vianny (with citation), especially in the context that he said them, rather than a paraphrase.
^ This.  Context is usually lost when picking only certain citations.
 

SolEX01

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domNoah said:
It makes perfect sense as well because married women are saved through child bearing.  To Paraphrase one of our Saints St. John Vianny, "Many women go to hell because they do not have the children God wanted to send them."
How about the exact quote and source.

J Michael beat me to the punch; however, this paraphrase has upset 2 of the female members of the board who are (or were) connected to the Catholic Church
 
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